Here's involuntary body movements -
https://youtu.be/qkNbYHu_STU
Here's speech impediment -
https://youtu.be/KEyYSPcdWUs
Quote from: Irene on March 18, 2017, 05:35:43 PM
ETA, we should pay close attention to the research being done with magnetism and the human brain. Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation studies show that a strong magnetic field generated right next to a subject's head will interfere with their ability to think properly.
It's not really the strong magnetic field that causes those effects, it's the rapid change in the magnetic field, inducing an electric current on the brain under it.
Quote from: ArMaP on March 18, 2017, 06:40:22 PM
It's not really the strong magnetic field that causes those effects, it's the rapid change in the magnetic field, inducing an electric current on the brain under it.
ArMaP,Do we have to do this again?
Without the influence of the magnetic field produced by the appliance, this would not happen.
Quote from: Irene on March 18, 2017, 06:55:41 PM
ArMaP,
Do we have to do this again?
I'm sorry, but when I see someone that appears to not know something about the subject they are talking about I try to correct them.
QuoteWithout the influence of the magnetic field produced by the appliance, this would not happen.
True, but it's the sudden change that creates the effect, not the presence of the magnetic field itself. A static magnetic field of the same intensity would not create that effect.
Quote from: ArMaP on March 18, 2017, 06:59:19 PM
I'm sorry, but when I see someone that appears to not know something about the subject they are talking about I try to correct them.
True, but it's the sudden change that creates the effect, not the presence of the magnetic field itself. A static magnetic field of the same intensity would not create that effect.
Prove it.
Quote from: Irene on March 18, 2017, 07:00:27 PM
Prove it.
QuoteWhat is TMS?
TMS is based on the principle of electromagnetic induction. Michael Faraday showed that when an electrical current is passed through a wire, it generates a time-varying magnetic field. If a second wire is placed nearby, the magnetic field induces electrical current flow in that second wire. In TMS, the 'first wire' is the stimulating coil and the 'second wire' is a targeted region of the brain.
Source (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982207008688)
QuoterTMS: How it works
A typical rTMS session lasts 30 to 60 minutes and does not require anesthesia.
During the procedure:
- An electromagnetic coil is held against the forehead near an area of the brain that is thought to be involved in mood regulation.
- Then, short electromagnetic pulses are administered through the coil. The magnetic pulses easily pass through the skull, and causes small electrical currents that stimulate nerve cells in the targeted brain region.
Because this type of pulse generally does not reach further than two inches into the brain, scientists can select which parts of the brain will be affected and which will not be. The magnetic field is about the same strength as that of a magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scan. Generally, the person feels a slight knocking or tapping on the head as the pulses are administered.
Source (https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/brain-stimulation-therapies/brain-stimulation-therapies.shtml)
QuoteWhen you see a picture, hear a sound, or think of something, electric currents driven by electric fields will flow inside certain parts of your brain. TMS causes similar electric currents in the brain, but the neurons are instead activated with a magnetic pulse from a coil that is placed over the head. In TMS, the electric fields are generated by electromagnetic induction. Therefore, they travel effortlessly through the scalp and skull, which makes TMS an easy, painless, and non-invasive way to stimulate the brain.
Source (https://www.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/lab/tms)
Happy?
QuoteWhat is TMS?
TMS is based on the principle of electromagnetic induction. Michael Faraday showed that when an electrical current is passed through a wire, it generates a time-varying magnetic field. If a second wire is placed nearby, the magnetic field induces electrical current flow in that second wire. In TMS, the 'first wire' is the stimulating coil and the 'second wire' is a targeted region of the brain.
QuoterTMS: How it works
A typical rTMS session lasts 30 to 60 minutes and does not require anesthesia.
During the procedure:
- An electromagnetic coil is held against the forehead near an area of the brain that is thought to be involved in mood regulation.
- Then, short electromagnetic pulses are administered through the coil. The magnetic pulses easily pass through the skull, and causes small electrical currents that stimulate nerve cells in the targeted brain region.
Because this type of pulse generally does not reach further than two inches into the brain, scientists can select which parts of the brain will be affected and which will not be. The magnetic field is about the same strength as that of a magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scan. Generally, the person feels a slight knocking or tapping on the head as the pulses are administered.
QuoteWhen you see a picture, hear a sound, or think of something, electric currents driven by electric fields will flow inside certain parts of your brain. TMS causes similar electric currents in the brain, but the neurons are instead activated with a magnetic pulse from a coil that is placed over the head. In TMS, the electric fields are generated by electromagnetic induction. Therefore, they travel effortlessly through the scalp and skull, which makes TMS an easy, painless, and non-invasive way to stimulate the brain.[/b]
I don't understand why you bolded the word "magnetic", didn't you notice that I agreed that magnetism is (obviously) needed?
I also suppose you didn't notice all the references to changes in the magnetic field, so I will bold the important parts you missed.
QuoteWhat is TMS?
TMS is based on the principle of electromagnetic induction. Michael Faraday showed that when an electrical current is passed through a wire, it generates a time-varying magnetic field. If a second wire is placed nearby, the magnetic field induces electrical current flow in that second wire. In TMS, the 'first wire' is the stimulating coil and the 'second wire' is a targeted region of the brain.
QuoterTMS: How it works
A typical rTMS session lasts 30 to 60 minutes and does not require anesthesia.
During the procedure:
- An electromagnetic coil is held against the forehead near an area of the brain that is thought to be involved in mood regulation.
- Then, short electromagnetic pulses are administered through the coil. The magnetic pulses easily pass through the skull, and causes small electrical currents that stimulate nerve cells in the targeted brain region.
Because this type of pulse generally does not reach further than two inches into the brain, scientists can select which parts of the brain will be affected and which will not be. The magnetic field is about the same strength as that of a magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scan. Generally, the person feels a slight knocking or tapping on the head as the pulses are administered.
QuoteWhen you see a picture, hear a sound, or think of something, electric currents driven by electric fields will flow inside certain parts of your brain. TMS causes similar electric currents in the brain, but the neurons are instead activated with a magnetic pulse from a coil that is placed over the head. In TMS, the electric fields are generated by electromagnetic induction. Therefore, they travel effortlessly through the scalp and skull, which makes TMS an easy, painless, and non-invasive way to stimulate the brain.
This part is new.
QuoteElectromagnetic or magnetic induction is the production of an electromotive force (i.e., voltage) across an electrical conductor due to its dynamic interaction with a magnetic field.
Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_induction)
This is the principle in which transformers are created:
an alternating current on the primary coil creates a
alternating magnetic field. This
alternating magnetic field, acting over the secondary coil, creates an alternating current.
If you connect a transformer to direct current, it creates a constant magnetic field on the primary coil and a transient (only for a few milliseconds) direct current on the secondary coil when you connect the current. As soon as the magnetic field stabilises the current on the secondary coil stops flowing.
Anyone that has learned about electricity (like I did) can tell you that's one of the first things we learn.
ArMaP,
I put you on Ignore this afternoon, so don't waste your breath.
Quote from: ArMaP on March 19, 2017, 01:17:56 AM
I don't understand why you bolded the word "magnetic", didn't you notice that I agreed that magnetism is (obviously) needed?
I also suppose you didn't notice all the references to changes in the magnetic field, so I will bold the important parts you missed.
What is TMS?
TMS is based on the principle of electromagnetic induction. Michael Faraday showed that when an electrical current is passed through a wire, it generates a time-varying magnetic field. If a second wire is placed nearby, the magnetic field induces electrical current flow in that second wire. In TMS, the 'first wire' is the stimulating coil and the 'second wire' is a targeted region of the brain.
Quote
rTMS: How it works
A typical rTMS session lasts 30 to 60 minutes and does not require anesthesia.
During the procedure:
- An electromagnetic coil is held against the forehead near an area of the brain that is thought to be involved in mood regulation.
- Then, short electromagnetic pulses are administered through the coil. The magnetic pulses easily pass through the skull, and causes small electrical currents that stimulate nerve cells in the targeted brain region.
Because this type of pulse generally does not reach further than two inches into the brain, scientists can select which parts of the brain will be affected and which will not be. The magnetic field is about the same strength as that of a magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scan. Generally, the person feels a slight knocking or tapping on the head as the pulses are administered.
Quote
When you see a picture, hear a sound, or think of something, electric currents driven by electric fields will flow inside certain parts of your brain. TMS causes similar electric currents in the brain, but the neurons are instead activated with a magnetic pulse from a coil that is placed over the head. In TMS, the electric fields are generated by electromagnetic induction. Therefore, they travel effortlessly through the scalp and skull, which makes TMS an easy, painless, and non-invasive way to stimulate the brain.
This part is new.
Quote
Electromagnetic or magnetic induction is the production of an electromotive force (i.e., voltage) across an electrical conductor due to its dynamic interaction with a magnetic field.
Source
This is the principle in which transformers are created:
an alternating current on the primary coil creates a alternating magnetic field. This alternating magnetic field, acting over the secondary coil, creates an alternating current.
If you connect a transformer to direct current, it creates a constant magnetic field on the primary coil and a transient (only for a few milliseconds) direct current on the secondary coil when you connect the current. As soon as the magnetic field stabilises the current on the secondary coil stops flowing.
Anyone that has learned about electricity (like I did) can tell you that's one of the first things we learn.
This part is new.Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_induction)
This is the principle in which transformers are created:
an alternating current on the primary coil creates a alternating magnetic field. This alternating magnetic field, acting over the secondary coil, creates an alternating current.
If you connect a transformer to direct current, it creates a constant magnetic field on the primary coil and a transient (only for a few milliseconds) direct current on the secondary coil when you connect the current. As soon as the magnetic field stabilises the current on the secondary coil stops flowing.
Anyone that has learned about electricity (like I did) can tell you that's one of the first things we learn.
I am familiar with magnetic induction on a coil or piece of wire to create voltage.
In fact attaching voltage to any piece of wire will create magnetic lines around it.
However this does not apply to non ferrous metal.
I am wondering how these principles of voltage and magnetism apply to brain matter, which is non ferrous as well.
Brain matter is not a good conductor like a piece of wire is, or wire wound into a coil.
10 Things an Electromagnetic Field Can Do to Your Brain
http://io9.gizmodo.com/5851828/10-things-an-electromagnetic-field-can-do-to-your-brain
How Magnetism Affects How We Think and Feel
Alteration of magnetic fields can change the behavior of everything from individual neurons to overall behavior...and even how humans are connected to each other.
http://spiritualityhealth.com/articles/how-magnetism-affects-how-we-think-and-feel
Quote from: A51Watcher on March 19, 2017, 02:23:58 AM
I am familiar with magnetic induction on a coil or piece of wire to create voltage.
In fact attaching voltage to any piece of wire will create magnetic lines around it.
However this does not apply to non ferrous metal.
I am wondering how these principles of voltage and magnetism apply to brain matter, which is non ferrous as well.
Brain matter is not a good conductor like a piece of wire is, or wire wound into a coil.
The brain matter itself is non conductive, but your nervous system itself is electric in nature...
Seeker
Quote from: the seeker on March 19, 2017, 02:42:20 AM
The brain matter itself is non conductive, but your nervous system itself is electric in nature...
Seeker
Yes but the quoted material said the magnetism induced a voltage into the brain.
I don't doubt that a magnetic field could disrupt nervous system signals being passed, but using brain matter as a piece of wire to induce voltage does not seem likely.
eta: Note that magnetic fields have no effect on wood, bone, stone or other non ferrous material.
There is a reason that magnets stick to refrigerators and not your skin.
Magnetism and voltage will affect non ferrous metals such as copper (for copper wire), but again the key word is metal for wire and electromagnetic affects to be achieved.
I see no evidence of metal in brain matter to accomplish this.
Quote from: A51Watcher on March 19, 2017, 03:08:00 AM
Yes but the quoted material said the magnetism induced a voltage into the brain.
I see this is something apparently difficult to understand, or I haven't been able to explain it well.
What creates a current in the brain (or whatever) is the change in the magnetic field, not the magnetic field itself.
Quoteeta: Note that magnetic fields have no effect on wood, bone, stone or other non ferrous material.
You're looking at the wrong effect, that's why you can't see how it works.
A
changing magnetic field creates a
changing current (called Foucault current) that tries to oppose it on any conductive material, regardless of being ferromagnetic or not.
An alternator works on the same principle, with one or more magnets moving close to fixed (non ferromagnetic) copper coils (or moving coils near fixed magnets), creating an inducted current on the coils. If you make a copper coil and put it over a magnet no current will come out of the coil,
except when you move the coil or the magnet. The faster the movement the stronger the resulting currents. No movement (no change in magnetic flux), no currents.
A transformer also works on the same principle, and you can make a transformer without a ferromagnetic core, it will make the induction more difficult because the magnetic field created will be weaker, but as it will still create a
changing magnetic field it will still create Foucault currents on the secondary coil and it will work.
The old electromechanical electricity meters we have (or had, as in my case) at home also work by the same principle, with an
alternating magnetic field proportional to the current being used at home creating Foucault currents on the (usually) aluminium (non ferromagnetic) disc. Those
alternating currents create their own magnetic field, opposing the magnetic field that created them, and so they make the disc rotate.
Although not the same principle, you can compare it with the way a hi-fi speaker works: we can only ear the sound when there's a change in the magnetic field created in the speaker by a changing current, a constant magnetic field will move the coil inside the speaker to a fixed position and it will not make a sound. Foucault currents act in the same way, you need a change in the source magnetic field to get a change in the resulting conditions near the coil.
I hope I haven't complicated things further. :D
Quote from: ArMaP on March 19, 2017, 12:22:09 PM
I see this is something apparently difficult to understand, or I haven't been able to explain it well.
What creates a current in the brain (or whatever) is the change in the magnetic field, not the magnetic field itself.
You're looking at the wrong effect, that's why you can't see how it works.
A changing magnetic field creates a changing current (called Foucault current) that tries to oppose it on any conductive material, regardless of being ferromagnetic or not.
That is the problem right there, "any conductive material". I don't recall brain matter ever being described as conductive material.
is it a superconductor or a crap conductor?
Quote from: A51Watcher on March 19, 2017, 03:08:00 AM
eta: Note that magnetic fields have no effect on wood, bone, stone or other non ferrous material.
There is a reason that magnets stick to refrigerators and not your skin.
However they use magnetic bracelets for health reasons (not sure how that works0
Is not the iron content of blood a factor here?
Quote from: A51Watcher on March 19, 2017, 07:03:41 PM
That is the problem right there, "any conductive material". I don't recall brain matter ever being described as conductive material.
How do neurons work?
Quoteis it a superconductor or a crap conductor?
As far as I know there are no known natural superconductors.
Quote from: ArMaP on March 19, 2017, 07:32:34 PM
How do neurons work?
As far as I know there are no known natural superconductors.
The amount of resistance in tissue would dissipate heat just like a resistor in a circuit. Hardly comparable to copper wire.
The primary concern would be smoke coming out of your head.
See ohms reading here -
http://maglyse.com/pdf/brain-resistivity2.pdf (http://maglyse.com/pdf/brain-resistivity2.pdf)
how does an MRI fit
awful voice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok9ILIYzmaY
or
very slow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwH2OEB0DKU
or short
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGcZvSG805Y
Quote from: zorgon on March 19, 2017, 07:12:09 PM
However they use magnetic bracelets for health reasons (not sure how that works0
Is not the iron content of blood a factor here?
You can
force even a steak to be a conductor by hooking up jumper cables to it.
The amount of resistance will insure smoke rising.
Magnetic field interference with with neural pathways would occur long before any appreciable voltage would be produced.
Unless of course you are going the jumper cables route.
Quote from: A51Watcher on March 19, 2017, 08:11:53 PM
The amount of resistance in tissue would dissipate heat just like a resistor in a circuit. Hardly comparable to copper wire.
A copper wire also dissipates heat, it depends mostly on the current flowing through it.
QuoteThe primary concern would be smoke coming out of your head.
For that they would need to create a very strong current. As you can see below, when I hold the terminals of a multimeter in my hands a current flows through my body to measure my resistance, and I guarantee you that smoke didn't come out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxrJJw6aD7Y
QuoteSee ohms reading here -
http://maglyse.com/pdf/brain-resistivity2.pdf (http://maglyse.com/pdf/brain-resistivity2.pdf)
The highest value I saw on that PDF was 12.89 ?m, less than the resistivity of drinking water.
Quote from: A51Watcher on March 19, 2017, 08:38:49 PM
You can force even a steak to be a conductor by hooking up jumper cables to it.
A steak is a conductor, you cannot change the conductivity of a material by using a stronger current, conductivity is a property of the material, some periodic tables show the conductivity of the elements.
Quote from: ArMaP on March 19, 2017, 11:38:14 PM
A copper wire also dissipates heat, it depends mostly on the current flowing through it.
For that they would need to create a very strong current. As you can see below, when I hold the terminals of a multimeter in my hands a current flows through my body to measure my resistance, and I guarantee you that smoke didn't come out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxrJJw6aD7Y
The highest value I saw on that PDF was 12.89 ?m, less than the resistivity of drinking water.
Wow your just a regular Uncle Fester there with that meter
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/11/95/e2/1195e2744dc70f8fb97cae58f106dcde.jpg)
So now that we've gone long way round the horn, let's dock in port.
I have yet to see any numbers associated with the alleged voltages created in brain matter by magnetism.
This entire discussion is on whom is the bigger warrior upon neural pathways by magnetic fields, the field itself or twinkles of microvoltage.
Meat is not a good conductor. That is why it is not used in circuits.
Voltage is just a potential between 2 points. It is not an indication of how much current will actually flow through a circuit.
If you put a light bulb and a steak together in a circuit you will not get much light from the bulb. You will instead get heat dissipated by the steak which is the resistor in this circuit.
Magnetism has a direct effect on current flow from voltage potentials.
Let's take a look at the numbers on magnetic effect on network cabling as an analogy to neural networks.
http://www.siemon.com/uk/white_papers/06-05-01-magnets.asp (http://www.siemon.com/uk/white_papers/06-05-01-magnets.asp)
Even RF chokes demonstrate magnets direct effect on electrons.
I contend that when in the grip of an electromagnetic field, a twinkling of microvoltage on your potential will not help or harm your neural flow much one way or another.
Add an RF choke and your twinkling noise will be gone.
Quote from: A51Watcher on March 20, 2017, 06:06:47 AM
Wow your just a regular Uncle Fester there with that meter
The meter is running a current through me, I'm not providing energy to the meter.
Quote from: A51Watcher on March 20, 2017, 08:14:19 PM
I have yet to see and numbers associated with the alleged voltages created in in brain matter by magnetism.
Not by magnetism itself, by a changing magnetic flux.
QuoteThis entire discussion is on whom is the bigger warrior upon neural pathways by magnetic fields, the field itself or twinkles of microvoltage.
I don't understand what you mean by "twinkles of microvoltage". ???
QuoteMeat is not a good conductor. That is why it is not used in circuits.
Even if it was a good conductor I doubt it would be used in circuits, as it has other problems, like decomposing.
QuoteVoltage is just a potential between 2 points. It is not an indication of how much current will actually flow through a circuit.
True.
QuoteIf you put a light bulb and a steak together in a circuit you will not get much light from the bulb.
That depends if you connect the steak and light bulb in parallel or in series.
QuoteYou will instead get heat dissipated by the steak which is the resistor in this circuit.
No, for that to happen you would need a relatively strong current flowing through the steak, as temperature is directly proportional to the square of the current. As the steak has a high resistance the resulting current will be low.
For example, if you connect a steak with a resistance of 1 M? and a light bulb with a resistance of 30 ? (I measured the resistance of a 40 W, 230 V light bulb) and apply 230 (DC, to make things easier) Volts to it, the current flowing through a serial connection of both objects will be 230/(1000000+30)=0.00023 A. The power running through the objects would be 0.00023
2*(1000000+30)=0.05 Watts (if I didn't make any mistake). Too little for any real heating.
QuoteMagnetism has a direct effect on current flow from voltage potentials.
Let's take a look at the numbers on magnetic effect on network cabling as an analogy to neural networks.
http://www.siemon.com/uk/white_papers/06-05-01-magnets.asp (http://www.siemon.com/uk/white_papers/06-05-01-magnets.asp)
That talks about permanent magnets, not about changing magnetic fields. Just look at the conclusions:
QuoteAccording to the several laws of physics presented and discussed here we can conclude that the influence of permanent magnets with network cabling is minimum and is not an issue of concern.
First of all, the influence of a magnetic field is strongly dependent on distance and its intensity is inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the interfered system and the interfering source.
Second, the distribution of magnetic fields in the space around a permanent magnet is very well defined being stronger and concentrated at its North and South poles and weak and divergent elsewhere. So, the position of the interfered element in regards to the magnetic fields produced by the magnet (interfering source) is critical.
Third and most important — in order to have interference between two elements due to a magnetic field it's necessary to have a variable magnetic field in the space where both, victim and source are placed, according to the Faraday's Law. In the case of permanent magnets and network cabling this condition is not met, as there is no variable magnetic field in the space where they are contained; both elements are kept in static and fixed positions after installation of the cabling system.
QuoteEven RF chokes demonstrate magnets direct effect on electrons.
An RF choke is a different thing, it's a high impedance at a specific frequency, used as low pass filter.
QuoteI contend that when in the grip of an electromagnetic field, a twinkling of microvoltage on your potential will not help or harm your neural flow much one way or another.
I don't understand what you mean with "a twinkling of microvoltage on your potential". ???
Also, we are talking about changing magnetic fields, not static magnetic fields.
QuoteAdd an RF choke and your twinkling noise will be gone.
It depends on the frequency of what you call noise. Also, adding an RF choke to a neuron would be a little difficult.
So when are we going to see some numbers on the voltages created?
Quote from: A51Watcher on March 21, 2017, 03:00:22 PM
So when are we going to see some numbers on the voltages created?
I couldn't find any, only references to the electric field created, around 100 V/m.
From what I found, it looks like it's not easy to measure the voltage induced because of the presence of the varying magnetic field that creates it and interferes with the measuring systems, whatever they may be.