Where I work, there was a group that came and rented part of the facility. There were three primary individuals, one from Russia, one from England and another from here in the US.
They were taking an idea and expanding upon it. The Russian is a scientist who was working for the Russian Government and had developed an Ultrasonic Hydrodynamic Cavitation Reactor to produce steam that utilized 70% less energy than conventional methods. When he wanted to give this to the world, the KGB stepped in and he ended up destroying the device and taking his ideas and plans and he left the country.
Eventually, he made it to England where he met up with another engineer/scientist and they both came to the US to build his device.
The principle is sound and is used quite extensively but not on the scale that he claimed he could do. There is an individual here in Pennsylvania that makes small cavitation reactors for home use and claims an overall savings in home energy costs but not on the scale that was being worked on at my facility.
Needless to say, what others were doing on a small scale they intended to do on a large scale. For the past 7 months they have been attempting to build this unit. It is driven by a 200 HP 3-phase motor. It drives the reactor. The problem is, with all the design math...it doesn't work. The math says that it should only take 100 HP to operate the reactor at 3400 rpm and develop the steam from the cavitation. How much steam I don't know.
I was put on loan to the company by my employer to solve the problem with cooling for the bearings. The bearings on the reactor are water cooled and at a particular flow rate. I was asked to design/build and install a quick fix for they were behind schedule. It took me a little over two weeks due to parts availability but I finished the project assigned to me.
They began testing two weeks later and it failed. The problem was that the 200 HP motor, which was being driven by a VFD (Variable Frequency Drive) was kicking out on a short. Three engineers were called in. One from the Motor supplier, One from the company that built the Reactor and one from the VFD manufacturer. Fingers were pointed at each other. Again after two weeks, the President of the company I work for asked me to check out the system and give an opinion.
I began by testing the motor with a Megaohmmeter and found that the dielectric breakdown of the motor passed. There was nothing I could do in regard with the reactor but looked at some of their load calculations and assumed that the mechanical engineer did his work correctly. I converted his results into HP/load and found that the motor was accurate. I then moved onto the VFD. After testing the unit, I found that it was the wrong type drive. I suggested that they go from a variable torque drive to a constant torque
Needless to say, they are still fighting it out. Square D came in and reprogrammed the drive to flatten out the curve but it only gained them about another 500 rpm or a total of around 2400. They need at least 3200 for the reaction to commence.
Why have I bored the heck out of everyone?
To show that even when the math is there to support a small version and it works, sometimes when scaled up...it doesn't.
What you see in the picture is $1,300,000+ and it doesn't work.
As of last week, there is a lawsuit, the investors versus the company.
If this were to work, it would be a step in the right direction at least in terms of creating more steam than electrical energy to create it.
Over unity. And that is the basis of the lawsuit...fraud.
Mikado
What ever happened to the other 800 rpms that were called for. The unit is 25% short, NO?
If they had gone up to a 300hp motor, would it have worked? ( even if the math said 200 hp )
Was ther ever a smaller version of this that worked?
Also nice to see you have started a thread. Good luck.
Deuem
Quote from: deuem on July 13, 2012, 09:03:29 AM
What ever happened to the other 800 rpms that were called for. The unit is 25% short, NO?
Yes, it is not running up to capacity or designed rpm. What is happening is, the VFD is going into a short condition and shutting down. When they first operated it, it would only do about 1700 rpm and they slowly tweaked things to about 1900 rpm but the VFD was still going out on a short condition. The reprogramming only increased it to 2400.
What is happening is that the motor is being put under a tremendous load and is causing the overload. Part of it is the programming and part of it is the type of VFD. I also believe that the Reactor has a few issues as well.
Quote from: deuem on July 13, 2012, 09:03:29 AMIf they had gone up to a 300hp motor, would it have worked? ( even if the math said 200 hp )
No, the math said 100 HP. They decided to go with the 200 so they knew they would have reserve. Didn't work, something is needing more power. (Maybe they need Tim Allen <g>)
Quote from: deuem on July 13, 2012, 09:03:29 AMWas ther ever a smaller version of this that worked?
I only know that the Russian engineer/scientist, who I believe has a physics background as well, only built the one in Russia. The one he built was horizontal whereas the one built in the photo is vertical. Don't know if there is a difference.
I do know that it is based upon the pistol shrimp. Here are a few links:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52u_eCnD2ww
http://www.blfdesigns.com/frictionheater/
I do not see this as over unity but an improvement on what we can do to increase efficiency. At least it is a means of conservation of the resources we have until something better comes along.
Quote from: deuem on July 13, 2012, 09:03:29 AMAlso nice to see you have started a thread. Good luck.
Deuem
Thank you, I hope to bring up a few more.
A motorthat produces 200 hp @ 3400 rpm should be able to provide 309lb ft of full load torque.
Is it possible that the motor in use isnt up to the task of the load, and you may need to find a different motor or type of motor.
A v6 typical four stroke has an average of 200-300lb ft of full load torque at a certain rpm...is it possible to use a tuned gas turbine or auto engine to achieve the test, and then to tune that apparatus further after proving the small=big theory?
My calcs could be off for the situation, just trying to see it from a different perspective so correct me if im looking at it wrong.
Cheers
Le
The calculations performed by the Russian and the other two engineers indicated a load under 100 HP. In order to not work the motor too hard they decided to double the calculated HP.
The load is the Reactor that was made from a high velocity high volume pump. This is the company that supplied the initial pump:
http://www.sulzer.com/en/About-us/Our-Businesses/Sulzer-Pumps/Service-Center-Network/Bridgeport-New-Jersey-Eastern-Service-Center
It is a multi-stage vertical pump that was re-engineered so that it became an inefficient pump by creating stator plates in very close tolerance to the modified impellers which in reality were no longer impellers. One of the problems that I pointed out was that at the inlet side of the Reactor, the pressure was dropping even though the water being supplied was by a pump. This indicates that the Reactor still wanted to act as a pump for it was going in the direction of a vacuum or was simply put, creating suction. This would have the effect of attempting to force the water through where the steam needed to go in short. Thus it was creating a very heavy load.
The VFD was programmed and designed as a variable torque drive. When the response curve on that type is plotted, it is not flat but the torque will vary. In a constant torque drive, the response curve is flat, this will keep the motor from wanting to draw too much current and go into an overload condition and shut down. The VFD is programmed to allow 125 % of rated power and it was still going into overload. The problem is, a constant torque VFD is a completely different animal that the variable torque and would require a completely new one to be built and that has an appreciable lead time for they are built specific. At least according to the manufacturer.
Torque in regards to the VFD is a calculated value dependent upon the Voltage ramp, current, rpm and I believe reflected impedance. It is not a measured value. Therefore, the drive sees what it "thinks" is an overload. The drive is Square D which is now Schneider Electric.
Mikado
Damn, Sulzer makes some beastly looking gear!
Besides, a 200 hp 3 phase motor, that thing should spin a building around on it's foundation!
After some thought, and some memory of cavitation and what it does to the props on my boat, the impeller clearance does seem like a likely suspect, especially if they altered the geometry of them, that would really mess with the flow through the pump valves and body.
Ive reworked props to perform better, with holes near the leading edges of the blades, and rounding the inner hub for better exhaust scavenging, and it always makes the prop worse...needless to say I call West Marine nowadays, and just buy a different one.
Too bad they spent so much on the device, and to lose that much money on it, I'd be calling a lawyer, too.
I remember Square D, and their products from years ago, and always preferred their panels and such for quality, but it's been a while since doing any rewiring and refitting of elec. systems.
Have you noticed a change since Schneider took over, it would be a shame to soil their reputation over an acquisition.
Overunity evades so many researchers, myself daily, but someday the tables will turn, just look at Lloyd's device...what an amazing idea!
Some spit and polish, and that sucker may be the grail for home backup generators, here in Fla we could use it!
Le
Hello, Am I looking at that photo right, is that motor in line?
Why no gearing. An in-line motor is good for a fan but bad for a mixer. No?
Deuem
Quote from: deuem on July 14, 2012, 09:43:19 AM
Hello, Am I looking at that photo right, is that motor in line?
Why no gearing. An in-line motor is good for a fan but bad for a mixer. No?
Deuem
yes, that is the motor at the very top. Direct shaft coupling is not uncommon when using a VFD in the least.
I have seen Direct Shaft coupling on 500 HP 3-phase motors for pumping water. They are VFD driven and they don't start with a "bang". If they did, you would end up eventually spinning bearings or doing some damage. Their speed is ramped up slowly and is dependent upon the programming in the VFD.
You should have heard that girl sing when they were testing. When they got her up over 2,000 rpm it was....neat! When working on the platform next to motor it is essential that you wear ear plugs, one of the fabricators was up there with me when we were checking bearing temps and he was wrote up by the safety guy.
Nice question.
Mikado
As far as I know; When pumping water, all of those are designed to run at full overload. The blades are set back so they can free spin. They only operate at full throttle if there is zero resistance. Other wise if someone were to turn off a valve before the pump, the hydraulic pressure would cause it to blow up. Either the lines or the pump would go.
On this type of a machine with 1.3 mil invested, I would gear it so the motor has the ability to ramp up to speed and the gears take over the torque problem. Can't SqD give you guys a nice right angle or in line gear set drive to boost the torque? I like the VFD on a large motor. Would not want to be around one with out it. At least at start up.
Has that motor been RPM tested in the clear ( no load ), then gear it up or down to what you want at free spin. After all you will be able to ramp up with the VFD. I would calculate for 80 or 90% of motor rpm just to leave some room at the top for oops. One of my best tech terms....
Like the new fox avatar, I read the story behind it. Not a good ending but a fitting burial site!
Deuem
Agreed on all, Dueum.Wouldnt want to be around it when it fires up, especially without a hardhat and enough distance from those hoses.
Mikado, that was a sad story about the fox you guys befriended, my sympathies. :(
I too, value every part of my property's wildlife like family.
A really nice avatar at any rate :)
Le
Quote from: deuem on July 14, 2012, 04:36:51 PM
As far as I know; When pumping water, all of those are designed to run at full overload. The blades are set back so they can free spin. They only operate at full throttle if there is zero resistance. Other wise if someone were to turn off a valve before the pump, the hydraulic pressure would cause it to blow up. Either the lines or the pump would go.
On this type of a machine with 1.3 mil invested, I would gear it so the motor has the ability to ramp up to speed and the gears take over the torque problem. Can't SqD give you guys a nice right angle or in line gear set drive to boost the torque? I like the VFD on a large motor. Would not want to be around one with out it. At least at start up.
Has that motor been RPM tested in the clear ( no load ), then gear it up or down to what you want at free spin. After all you will be able to ramp up with the VFD. I would calculate for 80 or 90% of motor rpm just to leave some room at the top for oops. One of my best tech terms....
Like the new fox avatar, I read the story behind it. Not a good ending but a fitting burial site!
Deuem
There is a company called Aqua here in the States. They use some very large pumps for pumping water out of wells. They are Public Utility and supply water to various municipalities. As far as I know, they are all VFD and are controlled over dedicated cell phone lines along with a good deal of other data.
The purpose of the VFD is to eliminate any gear boxes or gear drives. The VFD is supposed to operate the motor at nominal conditions and respond to changes in load and adjust accordingly.
Gear Boxes do not do that.
Square D does not make gear boxes.
The motor was tested on the bench both no load and at full load and it passed with a certification.
Thanks about the avatar. And as a side note, if allowed here, Kim befriended a baby groundhog last year. The darn thing would come and knock on the door for food. After hibernation this year, he came back but in the end, Mom from last year chased him away. Kim was a bit broken hearted but now she is doing it to another one. I have to buy food for a groundhog...go figure..<g>
Also deuem, I have been reading your thread in regard to the photo analysis. Can't say I understand it but it is totally fascinating.
Would like to take a picture of Gravitor in action and see what results you get..perhaps.
Mikado
Foxes and ground hogs, Mother Nature at your door. I only have mosquitoes, want to trade?
On the Deuem thread it is very hard to get used to it. It would take time.
As far as a photo of a gravitator, that would be Ok to try. Everything on line has been blasted with so much light I can not find any thing. I do not need a lot of light and no direct light. Against a black surface would be best. One that is not shinny but very dull and not cloth Unless it is more than 2 meters away. Cloth gives out its own signals. In order to prove that the device was being lifted with ion wind, I thought I could catch it is action. Would need a smoke test. Like they do with cars in wind tunnels. So far I have found no air movement. I only say this because the program seems to be pretty good at picking up thing like that. I was expecting a huge flow of air the way every one is talking. I would like to see it. There is a video of a lifter on line and he showed air flow with an incense stick. This little amount of smoke means nothing to me except a little draft. I need something real so we can catch the actual wave of air.
On the motor, I thought they had a stall problem. Stall to me means no torque? How are you reading their problem?
Deuem
Quote from: deuem on July 15, 2012, 09:05:41 AM
On the motor, I thought they had a stall problem. Stall to me means no torque? How are you reading their problem?
Deuem
No, not a stall. It is shutting down on overload.
Let's compare it to a circuit breaker. If the motor is drawing too much current, the breaker would trip.
In the case of a VFD, the computer shuts down the motor if the load (motor) exceeds 125% of the rated capacity.
Mikado
Quote from: deuem on July 14, 2012, 04:36:51 PM
As far as I know; When pumping water, all of those are designed to run at full overload. The blades are set back so they can free spin. They only operate at full throttle if there is zero resistance. Other wise if someone were to turn off a valve before the pump, the hydraulic pressure would cause it to blow up. Either the lines or the pump would go.
On this type of a machine with 1.3 mil invested, I would gear it so the motor has the ability to ramp up to speed and the gears take over the torque problem. Can't SqD give you guys a nice right angle or in line gear set drive to boost the torque? I like the VFD on a large motor. Would not want to be around one with out it. At least at start up.
Has that motor been RPM tested in the clear ( no load ), then gear it up or down to what you want at free spin. After all you will be able to ramp up with the VFD. I would calculate for 80 or 90% of motor rpm just to leave some room at the top for oops. One of my best tech terms....
Like the new fox avatar, I read the story behind it. Not a good ending but a fitting burial site!
Deuem
Mr Deuem
You certainly interject an interesting spin on Mr Mikado's dilemna
Which is very interesting to follow
Here's a two-point toss-up that bubbles to the surface alongside my line of work
The internal part of electronic scale is a high computing A / D and microcontroller circuit.
It must be mounted away from strong electromagnetic interference sources, welding machines, electric drills, magnets and large motors for example, to ensure an accurate weighing.Would any type of electromagnetic interference have any bearing on the situation at hand?
Just tossing another hat into the ring, as we all are looking for answers from an interesting question from Mr Mikado
That may have bearing in other places and the quest quickens
Thank you for your time and information
Quote from: ColoradoGold on July 15, 2012, 02:33:14 PM
Mr Deuem
You certainly interject an interesting spin on Mr Mikado's dilemna
Which is very interesting to follow
Here's a two-point toss-up that bubbles to the surface alongside my line of work
The internal part of electronic scale is a high computing A / D and microcontroller circuit.
It must be mounted away from strong electromagnetic interference sources, welding machines, electric drills, magnets and large motors for example, to ensure an accurate weighing.
Would any type of electromagnetic interference have any bearing on the situation at hand?
Just tossing another hat into the ring, as we all are looking for answers from an interesting question from Mr Mikado
That may have bearing in other places and the quest quickens
Thank you for your time and information
If you look at the photo, I am sure you can identify the motor. The building in the background is where the VFD and the monitors are kept which is about 30 feet, by the way the crow flies, from the 200 HP motor.
Thanks,
Mikado
Thank you
Wasn't about to assume where all mitigating components might be sited :o
Good discussion and I want to see you succeed ;)
You seem to have invested a lot of time, money and thought into it :)
And deserve the fruits of your labor 8)
Which should be a great apple pie ;D
Not a Macintosh hitting you on the head :o