Okay this will be a thread about the economy, mostly backed up by various videos and talks, presented by researchers of the liberal bent. And a solution, mostly based on a conservative bent, but technically could be useful to both sides of the spectrum. This is not going to be a shallow or short presentation so if you don't have alot of time, consider reading it when you do. Make sure, however, to watch all the videos so you have the most thorough understanding of the topic before commenting on the solution provided at the end.
First, I thought it would be useful to present a video series of what actually happened when the stock market collapsed in 2008 (if you've already seen these 4 videos, skip to the next section). This is important because people need to be aware of the extent of damage transpiring to our economy which not only negatively impacts us, but people all over the world
part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3CDGh4cXU0
part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc11O7Efohs
part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSxl2fpU7uE
part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3VgY1_PzUs
---------
Next, I thought it was relevant to this topic to show a video that explains the difference in quality of life and cost of living for the 2 parent, 2 child family in 1970 vs. 2007. (yep before the crash. it's a doozy. the lady is not the best public speaker but just give her time to make her case because this is all related to the solution.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A
The solution, as provided here, was dreamt up by my better half (my hubby). I think it has real potential, so without further ado:
for every 5$ the employer gives the employee above minimum wage (regardless of race or gender or religion), the gov gives the employer 5$ in direct tax relief. this causes the follow positive chain reaction:
1. the employer is relieved of a sizeable chunk of his tax burden by deliberately paying his employees more money.
2. the employee benefits because his income is going to go up dramatically, resulting in him refreshing the economy with new purchases. increased income will also make it possible for him to, a) get a better education, b) open his own business, etc. chain reaction with positive outcomes.
3. the gov benefits from the additional purchases in the form of taxes paid on product purchases, and homes being bought and taxes paid on them, and new members being pushed into higher tax brackets, thereby providing more people capable of paying big amounts of taxes. so the gov recoups all their losses with the added benefit of the people enjoying a higher quality of life as well.
4. to keep it from creating inflation, simply employ it as an emergency act, that can be rolled out and used to restart the economy when it suffers from poor decisions at the top. then keep it in place for 10-15 years to allow the building of new business and new jobs, so the homeless, houseless poor can get back on their feet, get educations, start businesses, as well.
5. make it conus only (continental usa) so that it encourages our jobs to come back home from overseas if they want tax breaks. they will have to decide if they want to continue hiring people and paying them slave labor wages overseas, or come home and be legit.
6. it solves the problems mentioned in the video by the lady who investigate 2 parent/2 child families, by giving couples the option to not have to both work if they don't want to. this creates the "Safety net" she was talking about.
7. when our economy goes up, we start buying from foreign companies as well. and they start opening more businesses, and hiring their own people, and so on.
it solves, at first glance, every possible problem related to a poor economy.
what say you?
I read a great deal on sites like Business Insider and Seeking Alpha and I made and lost a huge pile of money in the '08 crash.
I haven't read a single pundit anywhere who's figured out what's gone wrong. It's technology.
We are killing off jobs at a breathtaking rate with new technology. God help us if we ever develop a smart computer program that can replace retail employees at your local mall. If job retraining programs actually worked, there'd be more of them and our problems would go away.
Why did the Banksters offer loans to people that couldn't pay them? Because they couldn't find anything else worth investing in and got desperate. It's part of an economy with a collapsing middle because we need fewer people to provide our needs.
The solution is technology that frees people from dependence on employment and centralized production.
We need free energy, 3-D printers and cheap broadband.
Quote from: Eighthman on November 25, 2012, 02:15:24 PM
I read a great deal on sites like Business Insider and Seeking Alpha and I made and lost a huge pile of money in the '08 crash.
I haven't read a single pundit anywhere who's figured out what's gone wrong. It's technology.
We are killing off jobs at a breathtaking rate with new technology. God help us if we ever develop a smart computer program that can replace retail employees at your local mall. If job retraining programs actually worked, there'd be more of them and our problems would go away.
Why did the Banksters offer loans to people that couldn't pay them? Because they couldn't find anything else worth investing in and got desperate. It's part of an economy with a collapsing middle because we need fewer people to provide our needs.
The solution is technology that frees people from dependence on employment and centralized production.
We need free energy, 3-D printers and cheap broadband.
agreed. but we also need our jobs back and a workable economic system. see the problem is, if we don't have good, sustainable income, we can't buy products from anywhere, here there everywhere. we directly and indirectly impact the economies of other nations because we represent a sizeable chunk of the purchasers. if we don't cash, we can't buy from overseas countries, which hurts their jobs and economies as well.
the only solution (besides more radical ones like amaterasu's) is to reinvigorate the employee-employer relationship. we lost alot of jobs to cheap overseas labor, as well, and it ended up not benefitting them at all, cause we couldnt buy the products anyway, once our middle class was scavanged. so i think in addition to tax relief and increase in pay, we need to add friendly small business interaction between the gov and the small business. poor people can't rise above their situation if they can't afford to become self-employed or have a good, useful education.
we also need a way to bypass wall street so they can't rip us off enmasse again, particularly since the gov refuses to regulate them.
did you watch the video of the lady in the thread here? the one called "the coming collapse of the middle class"?
i don't like the idea of just sitting here claiming some future utopia to be the answer, while millions of people are homeless and jobless and suffering not just in the usa, but all over the planet. we need to at least fix our current problem
for example, we lost our computer manufacturing base and its associated industries, to overseas cheap labor and other things as a result of things like nafta. this is because the businesses had to pay so much in taxes, fees and permits, that it was no longer possible to pay union level wages and benefits and keep their board of directors and investors happy. (and those boards are from all over the world. we can't fix people's morals from other countries, we can only fix our own).
so to get back our manufactuing base, we have to give the businesses a reason to come back. the socialists in the democratic party keep claiming that the big corps are the problem but they don't want to solve the issue by making it lucrative once again, to have business here. this is because the socialists have been working hard on making this a socialist country so the idea of people benefitting from working in businesses here, is the opposite of what they want. they are trying to create a crises that will force us into asking for full out socialism and that can't be done if people are happy. they need to relinquish their stranglehold on our economic system at least long enough for it to recover. making people suffer for long stretches of time, so you can usher in your own ideology, is insane.
in the plan outlined in my op, everyone benefits, even those who are on social programs. it doesn't hurt anyone. it helps everyone. the overseas companies don't have to come back here, but they will not be discouraged from doing so and some will naturally gravitate back here. the whole idea is a win-win for everyone, because although it may initially put some overseas people out of work, the increase in monies coming in from america, will allow their local businessmen to reopen their businesses. then it's on their heads if they don't pay their employees decent wages. maybe they could adopt the plan outlined in my op as well. encourage your businesses to pay their employees more by giving them tax breaks for each additional 5 dollars paid.
Allow me to elaborate. Suppose somebody actually created a StarTrek style replicator?
After a little while, who would have a job anymore? Only the guy who fixes it. With Commander Data around, they don't even need the rest of the crew.
And that's the problem: our technology is creating lots of little 'replicators' - and soon, we may see high paying jobs in medicine go away if Jeopardy's "Watson" can offer diagnoses. As it is, your medical X-ray might be transmitted to a 3rd world country to be evaluated and quickly sent back to your hospital, to save money.
This elimination of jobs by technology is also why we have such problems with income inequality - a problem that exists even in more socialist nations. The owners of technology benefit greatly but workers get laid off.
The future is more of the same and we need to prepare for it.
Quote from: Eighthman on November 25, 2012, 03:21:27 PM
Allow me to elaborate. Suppose somebody actually created a StarTrek style replicator?
After a little while, who would have a job anymore? Only the guy who fixes it. With Commander Data around, they don't even need the rest of the crew.
And that's the problem: our technology is creating lots of little 'replicators' - and soon, we may see high paying jobs in medicine go away if Jeopardy's "Watson" can offer diagnoses. As it is, your medical X-ray might be transmitted to a 3rd world country to be evaluated and quickly sent back to your hospital, to save money.
This elimination of jobs by technology is also why we have such problems with income inequality - a problem that exists even in more socialist nations. The owners of technology benefit greatly but workers get laid off.
The future is more of the same and we need to prepare for it.
Agreed! but you don't appear to hear what i'm saying. one more time with feeling
seems like a really good short term solution to me and could get people out of immediate danger. why anyone would resist the idea of employers paying their employees more money, is beyond me. people are suffering. solutions needed NOW. not 20 years from now, or 10 years from now. N.O.W. lol
as in, right away. yesterday. 4 years ago!
nooooow.
my kids have NO FUTURE. they can't find jobs.
we currently can't afford to supply them with cars, gas and insurance, nor education costs. and obama is adding 18 cents per gallon tax to gasoline with a potential of raising it as high as 10 $ per gallon. they are driving us all into the poor house so they can socialize us, but the journey to get there is creating huge human disasters!
solutions needed immediately. not after somebody figures out how to convince the saudis that we are going to use free energy instead of their oil. not after we go thru massive riots and deaths and depopulation plans.
STAT! today!
OK, "immediate danger" and "short term". If that's enough for you, go in peace, yes.
and looking at Greece ( and the horror of Japan- which no one seems to be thinking about), how short term would this 'short term' be?
Right now, the global economy looks like levitation in a Vegas magic act. What holds the lady up? Ah, a trick...
well just sitting here and letting people suffer (and our suffering is amplified to other countries! do you understand??) so we can await some glorious future in which we don't have to do anything,
is probably the most lame a$$ solution i've ever heard!
Call it whatever you wish, pejoratively, but there is no long term alternative, I can see.
If you think otherwise, then articulate one. Otherwise, it's just emoting that goes nowhere.
The human race has suffered for millennia and will continue to do so until the means emerge to exist otherwise. The idea of throwing money at our problems seems to be what Paul Krugman wants. It's also part of the derided "Helicopter Ben" idea.
I wonder how much longer Keynes will be believed in by any of the Elite.
i don't even know who those people (keynes and krugman) are, and frankly, that's not the point anyway. it doesn't matter if you sleep with one foot on the floor or hang from the rafters or under the stars, the point is, we have a humanitarian disaster of epic proportions and people are shoving it down the road as if it will magically fix itself when free energy is finally introduced. uh 10 dollar a gallon for gasoline, certainly doesn't sound like we're heading to any viable free energy solutions to me.
and since we've been talking about it for decades now and still don't have it, waiting for it to happen in the future and letting people suffer between now and then, is bonkers.
Quotefor every 5$ the employer gives the employee above minimum wage (regardless of race or gender or religion), the gov gives the employer 5$ in direct tax relief.
Where does the $5 of tax relief come from? The taxpayer must provide that funding firstoff so it is nothing more than a circular charge back on to the taxpayer.
Quotei don't even know who those people are, and frankly, that's not the point anyway. it doesn't matter if you sleep with one foot on the floor or hang from the rafters or under the stars, the point is, we have a humanitarian disaster of epic proportions and people are shoving it down the road as if it will magically fix itself when free energy is finally introduced. uh 10 dollar a gallon for gasoline, certainly doesn't sound like we're heading to any viable free energy solutions to me.
and since we've been talking about it for decades now and still don't have it, waiting for it to happen in the future and letting people suffer between now and then, is bonkers.
Free energy I think will start off being strictly a utility service where they produce the free energy and then sell it to the consumer. The idea that some one will mass produce free energy devices to allow individuals to enjoy a better quality of life is nothing more than a pipe dream. This could have happened when Tesla was looking for funding to provide the world with free power and we all know how that went down. The internet is chock full of designs for magnetic generators, electric cars, super efficient batteries, cars that run on water, and all sorts of other things that already could have allowed the world to be better...where are they now?
Sorry, but if you don't know who Krugman or Keynes are (were), you shouldn't be arguing this subject at all. They deal - at great length- with the whole complex subject of economic stimulus.
If you would like a different approach (short term) consider this: the Santa Barbara area has shale oil/gas greater than the Bakken by a factor of FOUR! Then there's "Eagle Ford" and the deep Utica deposits.
The US could be energy independent, slam-dunk - jobs, tax revenue, lower trade deficit.
Just imprison the "Green" types for a few years to get it done.
This all has been happening since the industrial age began. Rockefeller, Carnegie and Morgan. They were the gladiators of revolution and expanding this country with unseen speed and abilities ever before on the planet.
If it weren't for all three of them getting together, buying off McKinley ticket back to the Presidential seat, then instituting Theodore Roosevelt to Vice Presidency and then having McKinley assassinated only after the elections and three of the worlds richest men trying to get people like Teddy R. off the possibility of becoming the president of the United States too protect their interests with in the Labor arguments and implications of a labor union to demand more money for their workers, this is all repeat scenario but more complicated due to the current set rise of world populations and the over zealous call for supply and demands.
Carnegie was the only one to seem "Bothered" by what was happening, and he sold out to J.P. Morgan for 480M (Which in todays markets would be equivalent too 4.8T, or 1% of the GNP) there are way too many things we "Don't" know about the closed door policies that are instilled with in such seats as the Presidency today.
What you are speaking of is similar too an act of "Gandhi" and his arbitrary demise of starvation to get his point across with good results for the Indies and between the Brit's, but all is lost with in the confines of that era of this debacle or dilemma we currently face.
Your ideology of what needs too be done is more than likely openly accepted by all who read it, but the true matter of the fact, as far as the "N.O.W." you so boldly put, this is not going to happen any faster than what Eighthman is presenting as a "Possible" outcome to the problem.
Ethics and morality are still a live, but the capitalism in this country and other countries, regardless of the Social agendas pertaining to each and every Government around the world, these will always be "Monetary Times" until something drastic happens to thwart such control and Capitalism, and not just here in the USA, it would have too be a global calamity of sorts to bring these ideas to the table as possibility.
Don't get me wrong, I understand your frustration, but as a collective insight as too what has too be done and what can be done, well, there in it's self Lie's the dilemma of true optimistic posterity for the average man/woman/child. I too see it happening as Eighthman had stated, though it may seem as if we are sitting on our hands when we should be doing something about it, we can only reverberate the ideals of what is right and what is wrong, not no real resolution. And why? Because we aren't Rockefeller's, Carnegie's or Morgan's. And I am sure if we were, we have a "Slight" chance of bringing these thoughts to fruition to better the world, as Carnegie was truly relieved when he sold out too Morgan because his guilt of the fact he was not really contributing to mankind, he was trying to be the big boy on the block, which he was, for a while. He was the richest man on earth during those times and would be richer than all top 1000 richest people today if it were recent.
1WW
1ww
insightful post. thanks.
Quote from: Eighthman on November 25, 2012, 04:40:07 PM
Sorry, but if you don't know who Krugman or Keynes are (were), you shouldn't be arguing this subject at all. They deal - at great length- with the whole complex subject of economic stimulus.
If you would like a different approach (short term) consider this: the Santa Barbara area has shale oil/gas greater than the Bakken by a factor of FOUR! Then there's "Eagle Ford" and the deep Utica deposits.
The US could be energy independent, slam-dunk - jobs, tax revenue, lower trade deficit.
Just imprison the "Green" types for a few years to get it done.
yikes. let's not call for imprisoning people. let's just use the op idea instead lol the other issues would iron themselves out if the whole planet wasn't in perpetual poverty mode at the moment.
By the way, I'm very eager to find a completely believable free energy to build out and freely recommend.
I've spent a lot of time on this but can't find anything credible or practical - although the Rossi and Correa devices seem believeable.
Oh, and the remark about imprisoning Greens.... I do realize that the Khemer Rouge disproved the idea that you can improve society if you just get rid of enough obstructing people. If you just shoot people who annoy you, you'll never stop reloading.
We just have to get along.
Quote from: Eighthman on November 25, 2012, 05:14:33 PM
By the way, I'm very eager to find a completely believable free energy to build out and freely recommend.
I've spent a lot of time on this but can't find anything credible or practical - although the Rossi and Correa devices seem believeable.
Oh, and the remark about imprisoning Greens.... I do realize that the Khemer Rouge disproved the idea that you can improve society if you just get rid of enough obstructing people. If you just shoot people who annoy you, you'll never stop reloading.
We just have to get along.
agreed! stalin did that whole reloading thing, just to keep the common folk in perpetual state of fear.
its the kilgore answer.this was all implimented under clinton as stimulas.
auction it all off now.i saw ten new oil drill rigs go for a hundred thou each in 86.
foreclose and auction fast.all homes before the rats and thieves get it all.it worked in kilgore,it will work for the nation.
otherwise its a race to the bottom.
also trade sanctions against china or we cut off food.
this will cause a trade war with asia starving itself to population reduction and economic destruction.we win either way.
our politicians planned this whole thing for a reason.
future war.biological warfare using invisable drones.jmho.
Read your OP, and I hereby elect you to the economy recovery
team. The tax credit is especially on target.
Today, I listened to some goon on talk radio, and he ran on
about the short recession to befall us.....
::) And the lost decade to follow....oh I tell ya,
we need to fire them, all of em.
Quote from: Eighthman on November 25, 2012, 02:15:24 PM
The solution is technology that frees people from dependence on employment and centralized production.
We need free energy, 3-D printers and cheap broadband.
What you are describing, Eighthman, is what I would consider a characteristic or symptom of the solution, but not what I would refer to as the solution itself.
I consider the solution to be
decentralisation and
individual sovereignty. Individuals exhibiting these two characteristics render themselves completely immune to psychopathic influence; although they would, as you say, have free energy, 3D printers, and cheap broadband. I will try to explain this in a little more detail, so it makes more sense. In order to do this, I will first need to define some terms.
A wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_network) defines a
network as
any system with sub-units that are linked into a whole. I refer to each "sub-unit," or "point of presence," (such as a computer, in the case of the Internet, as a
node (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Node_%28networking%29).
My observation of engineering theory, is that the ideal way in which to build more or less anything, is not as a single unit, but as a connected network of individual nodes, functioning together simultaneously, or in
parallel. While it is apparently unavoidable that certain nodes within a given network are specialised, (as with organs in biological organisms) the ideal scenario is one in which nodes are as small, as simple, and as generic in design as possible. This maximises redundancy, robustness, and (usually) speed and ease of deployment.
This is also the reason why I am in strong opposition to the idea of a
centralised global government; I simply consider any form of monolithic centralisation (which is what government is) to be an inherently non-robust and usually psychopathic design. Nature, in my own opinion, is (for the most part, although there are exceptions, as mentioned) broadly speaking a decentralised network which optimises and specialises at the per-node level. You have a lot of different species of tree, as one example, but you don't generally have (at least as far as I know) a hierarchy of trees in which one or two kinds of trees are considered more important than all the rest.
The problem with centralisation, is that it implies per-node specialisation, which in turn lessens redundancy. What I mean by this is, that if you have ten nodes in a network which are all doing the same thing, and one node is destroyed, then while the network might have lost 10% of
capacity, it can still continue to function. If, on the other hand, you have nine nodes all performing the same task, and a tenth performing a unique task which the other nine cannot perform, then if that tenth node is destroyed, the capability to perform the given task is permanently lost to the entire network.
So to bring that analogy into the real world, if you have a scenario where 90% of the public are not politicians, and only 10% are, then you have a scenario where only 10% of the total population, is capable of performing a particular set of tasks; and in this case, these are usually the most crucial tasks required by the society.
My own ideal solution for world government, to the extent that it must exist at all, would be based on the original non-commercial, non-psychopathic model which was relevant to the Internet prior to 2000. In that case, the Internet's overall government was said to be the
Internet Engineering Task Force.However, the thing to understand about this group, is that they did not hold final jurisdiction over each individual node in the network. Their governmental power primarily concerned the technical protocols which the network itself used; their maintenance and technological advancement, and the writing of standards which individual nodes
were expected to adhere to. Although again, AFAIK, there was no method available for the hard enforcement of specifications, and occasional, local deviations from particular standards did exist. Usually the network was sufficiently robust (in the early days, before the influence of the psychopathic corporate world arrived) that these deviations could be taken in stride.
Thus, the Internet Engineering Task Force was a
Technocracy in the truest possible sense of that word; and although Pimander and I have
seemed to disagree about the need for a global government in the past, I am willing to concede that if (and only if) said government consisted solely of scientists who were genuine experts in their field of relevance, and if their role was largely advisory (but still adhered to) only, and generally without recourse to direct, deadly force, then I would be in full agreement with such a scenario being implemented.
This is also, it is worth pointing out, what is described as the ideal form of government via the
Varnashrama Dharma, commonly known as the caste system. Namely, a scenario where the Brahmana (priest and scientist) caste ruled, with the Kshatriya (kings and military) served as subordinates to them.
Before you object to this, understand that the caste is not observed with real fidelity in India. Contemporary Indians adhere to the practice that caste positions are hereditary. Contemporary Indians also hold that the caste is a form of elitism (which created the mess that Gandhi made public, with the Dalits or untouchables) whereas the real purpose of the caste, was as a form of natural social self-organisation, where each individual became a member of the four necessary subdivisions of society, in a manner consistent with their temperament. In this way, the society made optimal use of the potential contributions of every individual, by working to ensure that every individual always did the work for which his own nature suited him.
Quote from: Ellirium113 on November 25, 2012, 04:27:58 PM
Where does the $5 of tax relief come from? The taxpayer must provide that funding firstoff so it is nothing more than a circular charge back on to the taxpayer.
sorry missed your post elli.
the difference is that it encourages business owners to pay their employees higher wages, in some cases two or three times what they are currently making. this makes it possible for them to create their own businesses and advance their own educations, making room in their current job slot for new employees.
one problem currently is that guys with degrees and highly skilled craftsman are working at mcdonalds and so forth. as a result, the gov is missing out on being able to tax their skills to the degree it could when they had a job befitting their abilities and education.
to leverage that vacancy and lack of tax base, the people who are making enough money to be taxed at all, are having to absorb the increase and in many cases, those people are working at jobs that are barely above the first and lowest tax bracket. that has a detrimental effect on the lowest paid workers in the country.
so if they receive 2-3 times or more, their original pay, suddenly they have new opportunities, it's easier for them to pay their taxes and the gov can receive more taxes from them that they can actually afford to pay.
businesses thrive on cash flow, which this shares a similar premise with. because cash flow allows the business and the employee, to have more options available to them. cash in hand is a valuable commodity.
the more people in the work force paying taxes, the more the gov makes in taxes, even though it is initially subsidizing the cost by giving tax breaks to business owners who pay their employees higher wages.
so i don't think the tax payer is going to suffer as a result, because there will be more people paying taxes to leverage that. it may seem circular but the difference is 1) increased cash flow, therefore opportunity and 2) more businesses, making more jobs, giving people who are on the street, living in tent cities, etc, the chance to get jobs and get back on their feet.
most importantly, it redirects huge sums of money down the money chain to the people with the least amount of money in the work force, who are currently carrying most of the tax burden that was originally carried by middle class jobs that have evaporated.
increases in energy costs and gasoline prices are attempts to leverage that vacancy in tax base, as well, making it even harder for people in low paying jobs to even justify working away from home. this would resolve all that.
Money Money Money...
In the year 2009 the fed Reserve could not account for 9 TRILLION dollars for that fiscal year alone.
Every year the DoD cannot account for 1.3 to 2.3 TRILLION dollars
There are 311,800,000 (as of mid-2011) Of those less than half are tax payers
So can someone get out a calculator and figure out how much money is missing and co relate that to actual tax revenue? That 9 trillion alone is about 30,000 for every man woman and child in the USA
So it would seem that the math doesn't work out to well here :D #0,00 a year is more than most people make in a year these days they are certainly not paying that much in taxes and that is only the unaccounted for money, not the daily operational expenses of a government that has more than 120 SPOOK agencies spying on you on your dime
Quote from: petrus4 on November 26, 2012, 07:19:15 AM
My observation of engineering theory, is that the ideal way in which to build more or less anything, is not as a single unit, but as a connected network of individual nodes, functioning together simultaneously, or in parallel. While it is apparently unavoidable that certain nodes within a given network are specialised, (as with organs in biological organisms) the ideal scenario is one in which nodes are as small, as simple, and as generic in design as possible. This maximises redundancy, robustness, and (usually) speed and ease of deployment.
Yeah Star Trek showed us the ideal society.... all about nodes... they called them the BORG :D
z
as regards your money money money post....
what's your point? :D
i'm sure you have one, but i can't figure it out atm. so speak plainly and directly. :D
Quote from: zorgon on November 26, 2012, 10:23:04 AM
Yeah Star Trek showed us the ideal society.... all about nodes... they called them the BORG :D
I'm not a transhumanist, Zorgon. What I'm talking about exists in nature, and does so in more than just explicitly eusocial (hive-based) social structures.
QuoteUndo11 Wrote:
as regards your money money money post....what's your point?
I think he is referring too the fact that there is literally billions of dollars unaccounted for with in the US economy and expenditure's behind the scene, this is something, that if allocated and found too what, where and when it was used, would be beneficial too the typical American Citizen other than using it for mundane experimental a secrecy type of investments.
In his post he had requested for someone "With a calculator" too figure it all out from the time span of 2009 until this fiscal year, it would be enough to not only help out the American people, but be better spent by giving these lost monies back to the origins it had spawned from...IMHO Undo.
And he is right, if you go back farther in the history of the USA financial governmental affiliations, you would find that there are literally trillions and Trillions of dollars that remain unaccounted for, Sad but true.
Mundane investments create a kind of smoke and mirror's for the PTB too acclimate the funds too any resource they deem "Adequate to their cause" and never get discovered for doing so. If you remember the "$2K gold hammer" incident some time back, well these events only go to prove that there is misappropriations of funds happening all the time and being covered up for r the true whereabouts of the funds honestly too the American people.
My earlier post mentioning the Rockefeller's, Morgans and Carnegie's is exactly what had gotten the government smarter as to get the right running candidates to benefit their desired wants and needs, once a politician, always a politician as it is justly stated. If it weren't for the Assassination of McKinley and these richest men in the world paying off the proper people to get Roosevelt placed into the office of V.P. they new that Teddy was a man of the people and didn't want that too happen due to the Millions of dollars of pay off that went on behind closed doors back then for elected officials too come to the light of day, it was corrupt back then, and it is still corrupt today Undo11, as you well know.
Just think, Carnegie, when he decided to sell out to J.P. Morgan got the sum of $480M, that is equivalent to approximately $4.8 trillion in todays market, this translates into approximately 1% of the GNP of our entire country today, that is almost unbelievable, and if it weren't for history having such a great record of what had taken place back then, and it went all the way through the Teddy Roosevelt Admin. to the supreme court to fight for workers rights and higher earned incomes, we would still be there today.
Only takes a very important person one time to make the right move for our country, but legacy after bad legacy has left this possibility little more than just as it was from where we are right at this moment "A wish" and remains as thus.
We will never know everything as it truly is with current state of affairs, but we can always "HOPE" that someone, sometime will come out with the facts of what has happened with in our Governments ability to not only be honest, but straight forward with mistakes and correctly deal with these events as a lesson learned, not an embarrassment that needs too be covered up.
1Worldwatcher
1ww
well we have to get them to do something cause there are a heckuvalot of people without jobs, homes or food at the moment.
im with z on the lost money.
then lets add up all the silver and gold coins that have been turned into fillings and jewelery,all the child swallowed a coin,storm drains,collectors moneys that are out of circulation,secret stashes,house fires,over the last hundred years.
thats a few billion.
then lets talk about trillions.
thats one million millionaires per trillion.
there are not alot of reliable places to invest after you add in inflation.
thats why i think the stockmarket is a scam controlled by the gov.i think it is purposefully manipulated through high speed trades to suck investors dry slowly.
look at all the pension funds that have dried up and yet paul ryan wants us youngers to invest our ss money in this scam as the economy goes in the dump.
sounds like another billionaire bailout on the backs of the youth.
inflation?
if we give everybody a raise then the landlord will want more money.
wheelbarrows of money for a loaf of bread.
already mentioned that. to avoid inflation you only roll it out when the economy has been trashed. keep it in place for about 10-15 years, and make sure everyone knows that, and then taper it back off again. it's just to kick start the job market and economy, which is driven by the middle class.
Quotethats why i think the stockmarket is a scam controlled by the gov.i think it is purposefully manipulated through high speed trades to suck investors dry slowly.
Indeed...Humans are too slow to control this...we just sit back and hang on to that kill switch. Check this out...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENWVRcMGDoU
I think there is a lot more shady deals being made through unregulated money exchanges etc. as well... Reflect back to the many Bearer Bond scandals.
Quote"The global shadow banking system ...grew rapidly before the crisis, rising from $26 trillion in 2002 to $62 trillion in 2007. The size of the total system declined slightly in 2008 but increased subsequently to reach $67 trillion in 2011", which is equivalent to "111% of the aggregated GDP of 11 jurisdictions and the euro area," the FSB reports.
http://rt.com/business/news/banking-shadow-business-operations-071/ (http://rt.com/business/news/banking-shadow-business-operations-071/)
inflation happens quick if everybody got a raise.in two years the economy would be boiling.
the numbers sound good but they dont add up because of illegal immigrants.
they keep wages low by absorbing the inflation that is needed.
i saw this happen three times in my life.
this is why the game is rigged.the rich dont play fair.
so once the poor know this they turn into democrats/socialist,i know i have.
if we cant control the billionaires greed then theres no sense playing the game.
so what happens now?
game over.
capitolism dies.
moral of country falters.
secession regains traction as congress stays deadlocked.
states become stronger and begin to have border squabbles.the great nation of texico is created.
a white flight to the midwest occurs.
most of the money follows and a new country forms around chicago.
thats as far out as i can envision.just a theory.
elli
that video is depressing. are people still investing in stocks? i dunno why anyone would want to when it's proven that they will deliberately sell you bad stuff, tell you it's good, deliberately make the situation so bad the whole thing will crash and then take all your investments. washington dc actually rubber stamped them stealing the people of the usa's life savings and pension funds and retirements, then to add insult to injury charged us taxes to keep the thieves from losing their shirts in the disaster they created. we voted back in the guys who rubber stamped it and punished us for having any money.
worse yet, when they were brought before a congressional hearing, they promised they wouldn't do it again, and for some strange reason, congress okay'ed them to continue on with the same lack of regulation.
any american who invests in stocks has to be out of their mind.
Quote from: undo11 on November 27, 2012, 12:35:52 PM
that video is depressing. are people still investing in stocks? i dunno why anyone would want to when it's proven that they will deliberately sell you bad stuff, tell you it's good, deliberately make the situation so bad the whole thing will crash and then take all your investments.
If the big companies were publicly owned and they didn't stand to make millions from the activity they wouldn't be able to do this.
Quote from: Pimander on November 27, 2012, 12:49:43 PM
If the big companies were publicly owned and they didn't stand to make millions from the activity they wouldn't be able to do this.
if our pres and friends didn't let them do it, they wouldn't do this. there were laws in place before bush removed them, to stop this from happening.
it's awful. the repubs get bills passed that the dems then use to "teach us a lesson." they all get richer and everyone else loses their shirt.
I'm waiting to get back into stocks. Why?
Because I have all these green pieces of paper lying around and I'm afraid they may become almost worthless - so, at least I might own a piece of some business or resource.
Welcome to 2012. There's little or nothing to invest in.
Quote from: undo11 on November 27, 2012, 01:22:12 PM
if our pres and friends didn't let them do it, they wouldn't do this. there were laws in place before bush removed them, to stop this from happening.
But why is it right that people can make millions by not generating any wealth? Surely that is madness?
Real businesses generate tangible benefits to real people. Not people trading with bits of paper and numbers on a computer.
Quote from: Eighthman on November 27, 2012, 01:31:47 PM
I'm waiting to get back into stocks. Why?
Because I have all these green pieces of paper lying around and I'm afraid they may become almost worthless - so, at least I might own a piece of some business or resource.
Welcome to 2012. There's little or nothing to invest in.
There is something to invest in. Use the money to start and run a business that provides something people want or need. Or invest in a small to medium sized business that does this. That is generating wealth and you deserve to make a profit from it.
Trading bits of paper that say you own something you will never see, then buying different bits of paper that say you own something else is nonsense economics. You have not generated wealth by buying stocks/shares so why should you profit from it?
It is the people creating real services and goods that earn and create any real wealth. People trading bits of paper generates no wealth for society. It is a form of parasitism legitimised by a corrupt and morally redundant system!
Quote from: Pimander on November 27, 2012, 02:11:07 PM
But why is it right that people can make millions by not generating any wealth? Surely that is madness?
Real businesses generate tangible benefits to real people. Not people trading with bits of paper and numbers on a computer.
what are you saying? that it's my fault they stole from old people, retired police and fireman, retirees of every stripe and color, because i'm complaining about bush removing regulations and obama's admin allowing it to continue?
you're not making any sense.
if i'm reading this correctly, the bulk of people who lost their life savings, retirements and pensions, were not stock market people but people who had put their money in a bank account!!!! they lost their shirts because their monies were invested in banks controlled somehow by lehman brothers that bush's financial advisor, deliberately let fail to teach the american people a lesson.
what was the f'in lesson? that if you work all your life and put your money in a savings account that you deserve to lose your shirt? ? ? help me out here!!!!!!!
Quote from: undo11 on November 27, 2012, 02:55:05 PM
what are you saying? that it's my fault they stole from old people, retired police and fireman, retirees of every stripe and color, because i'm complaining about bush removing regulations and obama's admin allowing it to continue?
you're not making any sense.
Speaking of investments, another thing that is good to invest in is yourself. Learn a skill, or create something that can be bartered. That is a tangible investment. Usury (borrowing and lending at interest) is what has caused all the problems in your current system.
Your government is in debt to foreign creditors. Everyone is in debt to someone. This is all because somewhere down the line, usury began to be used. In the most sacred religious texts on Earth, it has been one of the biggest evils! It is through the door of usury that much corruption happens.
If you become more self-responsible and affiliate yourself with others who are choosing the same, you will always have what you need when you need it. Always. It is a very different way to live. Eventually, this can be one of the roads that leads to the Pleiadian Equal Value System.
For those of you who do not know what we are talking about regarding the Pleiadian Equal Value System, it is very simple. It may even sound too simplistic.
Everything in our society is equal to everything else. We'll use an analogy. I can go into a "supermarket" and get my groceries. I won't purchase them, I'll simply walk out with them. However, whenever someone comes to me for my service, I give them my service. This allows everyone on my planet to do what excites them and not worry that they can't make a living at it.
Your value system now is totally arbitrary. In community, those arbitrary values go out the window. You can't keep changing them to suit your purposes. We view our planet as one holistic unit.
Once we were speaking to someone about this and they were very critical.
They said,
"Well, who is taking out the garbage, since no one could possible be excited to do that?"
No, no one is excited to take out the garbage. However, there have been plenty of people (inventors) who were very excited to invent a device to get rid of the garbage!
That is a symptom of a holistic organism.
Where there is a need, there is someone to fulfill the need. This is how our society works. We know this is very alien to you. Look at how many hungry inventors there are on your world who want to invent alternate fuel sources. There are people who want to invent new forms of waste disposal. There are so many people who want to invent things to take away the displeasing things that you have to deal with.
If you suddenly let go of your definitions and your rigid constraints and learned to follow your excitement every day, you would create this! It is just a matter of time until you do. Right now there are still too many people hoarding power, money, and living in fear.-- Sasha (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_channelers14.htm)
petrus
well i have several skills but i'm really not allowed, for one reason or another, to succeed at using any of them. lol
for example, i am pretty good at gaming theory. i have a good imagination, plenty of experience, a great pool of gamers to draw ideas and criticisms from, decent writing skills, nice vocabulary, drive and ambition to get the thing going, art skills (hampered by lack of funds to have the correct software and also, i have vision damage (can't see small errors), some musical ability, capability at writing poetry, and etc. however, i cannot do algorithms. my brain simply will not do math, so i can't do the programming.
i bug people and beg for programmers and literally no one who has that capacity, will help unless i pay them large sums of money, which i don't have. the guy who made world of warcraft, guild wars, battlenet, and etc, managed to convince programmers to work for him for free, using a contract that makes alot of sense. so i have that incorporated into the plan as well, still no response.
and that is not all. when it was clear i could make alot of money off my star gate books, i was warned repeatedly by religious and non-religious people alike that i would be viewed as a hoaxer and rip-off artist, because my subject was too controversial. so i gave up that idea.
when i tried to branch out into music (i wrote my own music and sang it too), i was told i was too old. i was in my early 30s. (just to remind you, there are people in their 50s getting into the music business even today, and some who are still popular and they're in their 60s and in some cases 70s).
i have been swimming against the stream since i found out i could swim and eveyrone and his uncle has either resisted allowing me to use my skills, or
convinced me not to in my own best interest.
this is not a pity pot, it's reality for me! so i don't want to hear any more of those sasha pep talks, supposedly from aliens in some idealic society on the other side of the universe. it ain't happening!
Quote from: undo11 on November 27, 2012, 02:55:05 PM
what are you saying? that it's my fault they stole from old people, retired police and fireman, retirees of every stripe and color, because i'm complaining about bush removing regulations and obama's admin allowing it to continue?
you're not making any sense.
I'm not saying anything about you. I'm saying that trading stocks and shares does not generate wealth. That means that if people are wealthy through doing so, they are basically taking a share of goods and services they don't contribute to providing. It is a form of parasitism.
Other people generate wealth in the form of goods and services by working (in a job that is NEEDED). People who are rich from trading stocks and shares contribute nothing to the wealth of society as they produce no goods or services YET THEY CAN CONSUME MORE THROUGH THEIR MASSIVE SHARE OF MONEY. It isn't fair. They are feeding off goods and services they do not provide themselves in a parasitic manner.
I am saying it stinks, is one of the biggest problems in the world and responsible for social injustice. I'm not blaming a particular person, it is the system we live in. We should change it because it is grotesque. What did your beloved Jesus do to the money lenders? IT STINKS!
pim
well just so you know, i did not invest any money in stocks, nor did i lose any from the crash, because we have never had enough money to even entertain the idea. i'm just fussin because of all the damage it did to middle america.
Quote from: undo11 on November 27, 2012, 04:21:27 PM
pim
well just so you know, i did not invest any money in stocks, nor did i lose any from the crash, because we have never had enough money to even entertain the idea. i'm just fussin because of all the damage it did to middle america.
Eighth man said they were planning to go back into stocks as they are scared of savings being worthless. I don't see either of you as Parasites in case you misunderstand me. I sympathise with both your thoughts but your worries are because of the system as opposed to the system being the solution.
In the final analysis, it would be far fairer if all wealth (goods and services) was spent by real working people and small business owners rather than fat cats. Obviously some people can't contribute for various reasons (age, illness, disability, bereavement and kids) and society has a duty to provide for them but it should not have to keep a wealthy elite that contribute nothing but own nearly everything.
thats why i believe investing in realestate is the only safe investment.
even it may go down in value but a person can grow pecans or timber or a garden or grains on it.
i just wish i could grow dr.peppers.