Since there is another current thread running, with a different subject relative to Israel, I chose to start another thread, for presenting the following information, and for any subsequent discussion.
We all saw this subject news announcement last week. It is in fact a "de facto" recognition, as there is no Palestinian "state" yet. However, the Palestinians, and much of the world sees that decision as a great victory, for the Palestinians, against Israel.
Well actually the vote was to upgrade the Palestinian Authority's observer status at the United Nations to "non-member state" from "entity," like the Vatican. So, really, it is a little different than it is being made out to be, on the one side, but very far reaching and with potential eternal consequences on the other.
I know this thought is a stretch for some, but everything that happens, happens for reason, including such actions by the (U.N.) countries of the world. To pass along some insight into this, I am providing a link to a paper written sometime in year 2002, that discusses several areas of point on these very issues. Some of her discussion relates to Yasser Arafat, and some of the associated Palestinian movements at that time.
In her comments, at one point she asks a question, and then answers it - - "But will the Palestinians ever achieve a form of statehood? The Scriptures tell us yes, although only temporarily". That statement in itself raises a degree of interest!!
The title of her paper is, "God Gave His Land to the Jews". In her comments, she goes directly into the situation with the Palestinians, with the Jews, with Jerusalem, and into the direct "prophecy" of how this would happen, and what God says he will do about it. It is pretty interesting how clearly the several thousand year old "Old Testament" scripture prophecies speak so very directly to these very current situational happenings.
http://rapturewatch.cephasministry.com/302%20God%20gave%20His%20Land%20to%20the%20Jews.html
The single problem with your perspective, rdunk, is that it is biased by the depraved, erroneous, and baseless belief that Israel as a country supposedly has the divinely sanctioned right to murder literally the entirety of the rest of the human population, if such should prove necessary to ensure its' own survival.
You cannot rationally defend this belief. The most you can do is either:-
a} Quote Biblical prophecy. (Or more specifically, your own warped interpretation of it)
b} Condemn me as a demoniac for daring to disagree with you, and make the spurious and disingenuous claim that rather than arguing with you, I am in fact arguing with God.
As a result, I am going to demand that you genuinely rhetorically defend yourself, without employing either of the two standard tactics mentioned above. If, as I am confident, you are unable to do so, then I will further demand that you publically concede that your position, with regards to Israel, is both morally and rationally indefensible.
I am no longer willing to tolerate Christian advocacy, of a morally depraved and psychopathic God. I am even less willing to tolerate said Christians' claim that their deranged perception of said God, has anything whatsoever to do with the actual Creator.
Any claim that you make in response to this, that my perspective is supposedly due to Satanic influence in my own case, will be utterly rejected, and recognised as a concession on your own part, that you are incapable of making a more coherent or legitimate argument. I am going to disarm you of, and wholly confiscate, the usual dishonourable, irrational tactics that Christians customarily employ against anyone who dares to disagree with them.
You have no other way out. Now tell me, why the Israeli government has the moral right to murder anywhere up to the entirety of the rest of the human population, if it considers such necessary, in order to ensure its' own survival.
Rdunk -
I can certainly see why you started this thread, since your comments and questions regarding the facts on this matter were completely ignored in that 'other' thread.
Presenting facts to be debated seems to be a real problem for some around here. Especially by those ignorant of the facts of history.
petrus,
you are getting pretty pushy telling members what their options are and what they can or can not do (as demonstrated in this thread), and before you start making demands that members defend their positions, you should try doing the same yourself, you are notorious for dodging and evading questions that you find uncomfortable and have no answer for.
The same goes for your 3 questions thread based on an erroneous assertion that is not fact based, such as the historical fact- based points raised by Rdunk.
Notice Rdunk didn't -demand- you answer, thus exposing your ignorance of historical fact? I assume he knew that those WITH education on history, would see your ignorant attempt at self- aggrandizement for what it is.
Historical fact has nothing to do with his religious faith, which is the canard you attempt to hide behind.
This is the same behavior you displayed recently when trying to tell Zorgon what he should be doing with his site.
You really should consider his suggestion of starting your own site, where you are free to be as pushy and demanding as you like and your threads can be based on as much fantasy as you like.
You might want to try the library instead of talk shows for your source of information.
Quote from: A51Watcher on December 04, 2012, 08:53:07 PM
you are getting pretty pushy telling members what their options are and what they can or can not do (as demonstrated in this thread), and before you start making demands that members defend their positions, you should try doing the same yourself, you are notorious for dodging and evading questions that you find uncomfortable and have no answer for.
I did that once, as far as my comments with you, where 3D Studio Max were concerned.
QuoteThe same goes for your 3 questions thread based on an erroneous assertion that is not fact based, such as the historical fact- based points raised by Rdunk.
He hasn't raised anything factually based. The Israeli land claim is garbage. The British awarded them initial territory, entirely arbitrarily, in 1947, due to guilt associated with WW2. The country was then gradually expanded in size, by the various psychopathic, expansionist governments that the country has had since. The Jews have no historical claim to the area prior to Moses.
If you're so certain that I'm wrong, you're welcome to cite actual facts to the contrary, rather than making personal attacks on the basis of statements I've made in other threads, which have no relevance to this topic whatsoever. His prior attempts to cause me to feel guilty, because I exposed the hollow irrationality of his position, didn't succeed; and yours are not likely to, either.
QuoteThis is the same behavior you displayed recently when trying to tell Zorgon what he should be doing with his site.
You really should consider his suggestion of starting your own site, where you are free to be as pushy and demanding as you like and your threads can be based on as much fantasy as you like.
This is completely irrelevant to the topic. Again, your attempts at shaming me into silence will fail.
Quote from: petrus4 on December 04, 2012, 09:25:01 PM
This is completely irrelevant to the topic. Again, your attempts at shaming me into silence will fail.
Will a cattle prod work?
::)
Well petrus4, from your comments, it seems I might have stepped on your toes. I certainly did not make this OP with any such intention. I posted to simply provide us food for thought relative to the subject action by the nations of the World.
The United Nations has acted with decisions regarding peoples whose intentions are to get as much of Israeli land as they can, including the city of Jerusalem. And such intentions may/will have huge impacts upon the country of Israel.
It is no coincidence that Biblical Old Testament prophecy speaks directly to this, so that we may all know and understand the relevance of such actions, to the nations, and to us.
The link that I posted is something I found that I thought pretty well covered God's position relative to Israel. This is just information, which each of us can choose to either accept, reject, or ignore completely. I do think it is worthwhile for all of us to be aware of happenings we become aware of, that could have eternal significance.
I understand some accept nothing Biblical, such as you petrus4, so, this should be a simple "disregard" for you.
No, no point "debate" in this for me! ;)
Quote from: A51Watcher on December 04, 2012, 08:53:07 PM
Rdunk -
I can certainly see why you started this thread, since your comments and questions regarding the facts on this matter were completely ignored in that 'other' thread.
Presenting facts to be debated seems to be a real problem for some around here. Especially by those ignorant of the facts of history.
A51Watcher, thanks for your comments!!
Israel as such, is a confounding, perplexing, and unbelievable entity in this world. It is a tiny place, and has a small number of people actually living in the country - only about 8,000,000. And yet, in the very naturalness of man, all eyes are continually focused upon Israel. WHY! WHY!
Can the answer to WHY involve the spiritual/supernatural?? Biblical scriptures do seem to answer that pretty well, regardless of whether we accept that or not.
At least with such insight, we can be a little better informed!
petrus -
You mistakenly assume I expect a straight answer from you that we can then move forward and debate.
I gave up on that foolish hope some time ago.
You appear incapable of providing straight answers to straight questions.
And before you accuse me of being one sided, take note I chastised Rdunk roundly a few months ago for crossing the line also. I'm sure he can vouch for that. In his case I was surprised because I have never seen him exhibit such behavior before.
With you, it has become the expected norm.
Even more hilarious, you now expect answers from me.
Sorry but you'll have to get around to answering several questions from me that you have completely ignored up till now before we proceed any further.
Rdunk,
we disagree on many facets of faith and religion, but we manage to agree to disagree in a civil manner at least.
Even the Vets on here who have first hand experience with the hell known as war, agree that the only winner in war is peace.
None of us want to see either side in the middle east conflict hurt or killed, any of them.
However Vets tend to make it a point to educate themselves on who has said and done what to instigate conflicts throughout history, just a funny quirk we have since it is our butts sent out on the line to deal with said conflicts.
I can see in your posts Rdunk, that you at least are educated on historical fact not fantasy when it comes to the middle east.
Would you mind relating the facts for our uneducated friends of what happened in 1967 that led to the quote "palestinians" becoming displaced ?
Thanks
Oh yeah Rdunk, I bet you know the answer to what is in the Palestinian charter that Israel has demanded be removed before they will begin ANY negotiations with them.
Sounds like a pretty reasonable demand that ANYONE would ask for.
And before anyone buys into the fake boo hoo poor us hype that pallywood tries to sell, besides educating yourself on historical fact, you should also be aware of historical fakes.
Palestinian Deception: Fake Palestinian Funeral
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USKCq44GIkQ
And this nonsense of me "trying to shame you" is just another fabricated diversion tactic on your part.
You vastly overestimate your importance in my world, it's just part of your martyr complex.
I point out misinformation from ANY member, not just you. Always have, always will.
The only person capable of shaming you, is yourself, which by your repeated actions, you seem to have a penchant for.
Oh yeah Rdunk, I bet you know the answer to what is in the Palestinian charter that Israel has demanded be removed before they will begin ANY negotiations with them.
Sounds like a pretty reasonable demand that ANYONE would ask for.
I believe you are likely referencing the Palestinian charter item that calls for "the destruction of Israel". Yes, one can't much blame them for making that a minimal starting point - line in the sand - for even the beginning of negotiations! Obviously, Israel would not even think about that being an item of negotiation!! :o
"Last night on CNN's 360 with Anderson Cooper, video footage was broadcast that purported to show injuries and victims of Israeli military operations in Gaza. The only problem is the injuries were fake."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpP438q8jNk
Quote from: rdunk on December 05, 2012, 04:10:06 AM
Oh yeah Rdunk, I bet you know the answer to what is in the Palestinian charter that Israel has demanded be removed before they will begin ANY negotiations with them.
Sounds like a pretty reasonable demand that ANYONE would ask for.
I believe you are likely referencing the Palestinian charter item that calls for "the destruction of Israel". Yes, one can't much blame them for making that a minimal starting point - line in the sand - for even the beginning of negotiations! Obviously, Israel would not even think about that being an item of negotiation!! :o
DING! Correct Rdunk, thank you.
And as you correctly pointed out before, Israel -responds- to aggression, they do not initiate it.
This fact was also conveniently ignored.
They also do not fake video footage like pallywood does to try and win support via lies and deception.
Retreat a few hundred thousand Km from the earth, and see if you can see the Earth, let alone the middle East.
Its all just Primate stupidity.
Give both sides Peanuts and Bananas and they will settle down until they get hungry again after a nap. :D
The Human Species neeeeeeeeds to grow up... :(
Would you mind relating the facts for our uneducated friends of what happened in 1967 that led to the quote "Palestinians" becoming displaced ?
Well, since Israel became a country again, in 1948, they have had a difficult time with the Palestinians. And it seems that they have to continually fight to retain their country, and their independence.
For what is now known as the "Six Day War", in 1967, Israel had to fight the combined forces of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Iraq. The successful results of Israel are almost unbelievable. There was much that happened prior to the Six Day War, that finally reached the point of war.
For anyone really interested, I am providing a link that goes through much of the historical detail, that finally lead to the war. It also discusses the detail of each country's participation in the fight, and the final results.
http://zionism-israel.com/dic/6daywar.htm
Quote from: rdunk on December 05, 2012, 04:52:26 AM
Would you mind relating the facts for our uneducated friends of what happened in 1967 that led to the quote "Palestinians" becoming displaced ?
Well, since Israel became a country again, in 1948, they have had a difficult time with the Palestinians. And it seems that they have to continually fight to retain their country, and their independence.
For what is now known as the "Six Day War", in 1967, Israel had to fight the combined forces of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Iraq. The successful results of Israel are almost unbelievable. There was much that happened prior to the Six Day War, that finally reached the point of war.
For anyone really interested, I am providing a link that goes through much of the historical detail, that finally lead to the war. It also discusses the detail of each country's participation in the fight, and the final results.
http://zionism-israel.com/dic/6daywar.htm
Again, factually correct Rdunk thank you.
The salient point to today's situation is that in 1967 Israel was surrounded on all sides by the armies of all arab nations, who were preparing "to kill every last Jew."
Non- Jews began packing and leaving the area knowing a bloodbath was about to occur because the arabs had openly announced their intent, and that they should leave, and afterwards they could return to claim all Jewish land for themselves.
The Israeli government announced that all were welcome to stay, but that if you left, you would not be allowed to return.
Those who gambled on the arabs winning, wound up snake eyes.
Much to everyone's surprise, Israel kicked the butt of the entire combined forces of all arab armies, in a record six days.
Israel stuck to it's word of no returning, and the humiliation felt by all arab forces has never been forgotten and continues to simmer to this day.
Quote from: The Matrix Traveller on December 05, 2012, 04:31:41 AM
Retreat a few hundred thousand Km from the earth, and see if you can see the Earth, let alone the middle East.
Its all just Primate stupidity.
Give both sides Peanuts and Bananas and they will settle down until they get hungry again after a nap. :D
The Human Species neeeeeeeeds to grow up... :(
Can't argue with you there Matrix.
Our survival as a species on this planet depends on it.