Memo details when U.S. can kill Americans
A civil rights attorney describes the Justice Department report as "a chilling document." Obama's authority
Take a Rare Look at How Obama Decides to Send Drones to Kill Americans
http://news.yahoo.com/rare-look-obama-decides-send-drones-kill-americans-031832960.html
Human rights advocates were floored on Monday night when NBC News published the details of an alarming Justice Department memo detailing the protocol for sending drones after United States citizens. It's not as if they hadn't suspected that the Obama administration's top secret drone attack protocol contained some unsavory details. They just didn't expect them to be so frightfully broad.
The scoop by Michael Isikoff is actually startling not for the details but rather for the lack of details. It's very vague about a decision-making process that puts American lives on the line. Put simply, the government believes that a lethal drone attack against an American citizen is justified if the targets are a) "senior operational leaders" of al-Qaeda or b) "an associated force."
RELATED: Pakistani Complaints Led to New Rules for U.S. Drone Strikes
One of those two qualifiers is infinitely more worrisome than the other. Going after leaders of al Qaeda makes sense. That's what the War on Terror is all about, right? Breaking down networks of violent terrorists and keeping Americans safe. If an American happens to be caught up with al Qaeda, someone like Anwar al-Awlaki, then well... they shouldn't be surprised if they're getting chased by drones. At least that's what we've been told so far. How and why these attacks are carried out by drones is also detailed in the memo, but we'll get back to that in a second.
RELATED: How Many Times Does Al Qaeda's Number Two Need to Die?
But what does "an associated force" mean? It seems like the guy who sells the terrorists bomb supplies would probably qualify, but what about the unknowing neighbor or the hired hand? Can we just kill them too in good conscience? Quite unfortunately, the government isn't exactly sure.
The memo suggests that anyone who "present an 'imminent' threat of violent attack against the United States" qualifies for assassination "a lawful killing in self defense," but that "does not require the United States to have clear evidence that a specific attack on U.S. persons and interests will take place in the immediate future." In other words, an "informed, high-level" official can order the killing of any American citizen that was "recently" involved in threatening "activities." As Isikoff points out, the memo fails to define both of those terms.
RELATED: Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Drones
"This is a chilling document," said Jameel Jaffer, deputy legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union. "Basically, it argues that the government has the right to carry out the extrajudicial killing of an American citizen. ... It recognizes some limits on the authority it sets out, but the limits are elastic and vaguely defined, and it's easy to see how they could be manipulated." We've already seen some of this vague authority in action.
A couple of years ago, The New York Times provided some insight into how subjective the process of deciding when to kill and when not to kill American citizens based on a top secret memo that justified the killing of al-Awlaki. That document as well as this latest leak from the Justice Department essentially says that a lethal attack, likely by a drone, is the method of choice whenever a capture mission would put other American lives on the line. Again, the documents are very vague about where to draw the line.
RELATED: Obama to Nominate John Brennan to Run the CIA
Inevitably, this latest revelation into how the Obama administration runs the War on Terror behind closed doors leads to more questions than answers.
How, for instance, do they decided when to kill non-U.S. citizens? Previous reporting on the issue says that the government considers any military-aged male to be an insurgent, so it seems like pretty much anybody in the general region of Afghanistan or Pakistan could expect to find themselves in America's crosshairs. But again, we don't know because the Obama administration is keeping it completely secret, despite years worth of calls to disclose its decision-making process.
RELATED: The C.I.A.'s Silence on Drone Strikes Is Getting Awkward
This could be the beginning of an enlightening time for those who demand answers about the government's shady drone program. On Thursday, John Brannan has his confirmation hearing where the Senate will decide whether or not he's fit to run the Central Intelligence Agency. Since he's more or less the architect of America's drone war, we're sure the Senators will have a question or two about this memo and, we hope, some memos that we haven't seen before.
Has Christopher Dorner now become a drone target?
The manhunt for the fugitive ex-cop has escalated to military-style tactics, sources say. 'Using all the tools'
Is this an excuse for Obama to test out his Drone to target an American... :-\
Are police using drones in the manhunt for Christopher Dorner?
According to a report by a British newspaper, they are. On Sunday, the Express quoted a "senior police source" who said the "thermal imaging cameras the drones use may be our only hope of finding him—on the ground, it's like looking for a needle in a haystack."
Dorner, the 33-year-old former naval and LAPD officer turned triple-murder suspect, has been at the center of a massive manhunt stretching from the San Bernadino Mountains—where his burned-out pickup truck was found last week—to the Mexican border.
In a manifesto posted online earlier this month, Dorner promised "unconventional and asymmetrical warfare" against the LAPD, which fired him in 2008. On Saturday, actor Charlie Sheen—who was mentioned in Dorner's online manifesto—released a video pleading with the accused killer to call him.
According to the paper, a pair of cryptic statements by law enforcement and U.S. Border Patrol officials back their source's drone claim.
"We are using all the tools at our disposal," Riverside Police Chief Sergio Diaz responded when asked if drones were being used in the hunt for Dorner.
Ralph DeSio, a spokesman for the U.S. Customs and Border Patrol, added: "This agency has been at the forefront of domestic use of drones by law enforcement. That's all I can say at the moment."
As Gizmodo.com noted, it wouldn't be the first time drones were used in tracking fugitives on U.S. soil.
From Time:
In June 2011 a county sheriff in North Dakota was trying to track down three men, possibly carrying guns, in connection with some missing cows. He had a lot of ground to cover, so—as one does—he called in a Predator drone from a local Air Force base. It not only spotted the men but could see that they were in fact unarmed. It was the first time a Predator had been involved in the arrest of U.S. citizens.
But it would come at a time when U.S. drone use--both domestically and abroad--under President Barack Obama has come under increased scrutiny. Last week, Sen. Bob Corker, the top Republican on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, told Yahoo News that the White House's deadly drone war against suspected extremists, including Americans overseas, may not be legal.
On Saturday, police conducted a door-to-door search for Dorner in Big Bear Lake, Calif., but snowfall hampered their efforts in the surrounding mountains.
On Sunday in Los Angeles, an increased police presence was seen at the Grammy Awards, which some thought Dorner might target. In Northridge, Calif., a home improvement store was evacuated after a report of a possible Dorner sighting, hours after the LAPD announced a $1 million reward for information leading to his arrest.
"This is the largest local reward ever offered, to our knowledge," Los Angeles Police Chief Charlie Beck said at a news conference. "This is an act of domestic terrorism. This is a man who has targeted those that we entrust to protect the public. His actions cannot go unanswered."
Meanwhile, the U.S. Border Patrol has stepped up security, screening vehicles to prevent Dorner from fleeing the country into Tijuana.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/dorner-drone-manhunt-192403607.html
talk about coincidence.like a made for tv reality show.
actually i saw the drone threat i think about six months ago with obama.
ive been watching anonymous on youtube.they threatened the president and these threats by obummer on drones is against them without coming straight out and saying it.
i realize some folks think anon is cia.im not sure all are.
so far both sides have just been cat scratches compared to what they could do.
dorner fits the perfect excuse to drone and i dont see it happening.the sheeple havent accepted it yet.
my guess dorn is hiding in the hood.he could own the gangs right now and really raise some hell in la.
Quote from: astr0144 on February 12, 2013, 01:08:48 AM
Has Christopher Dorner now become a drone target?
Well dang...
(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/46711_4747142031354_991663930_n.jpg)
I had noticed the similarities. If I were LL Cool J, I would hang low for a few days!
8)
QuoteThe scoop by Michael Isikoff is actually startling not for the details but rather for the lack of details. It's very vague about a decision-making process that puts American lives on the line. Put simply, the government believes that a lethal drone attack against an American citizen is justified if the targets are a) "senior operational leaders" of al-Qaeda or b) "an associated force."
What does b) mean?
And this obviously would be before a trial to determine if you were or not.
So heresay is allowed in this case.
You don't like your neighbour so you tell the authorities that he is selling arms to al CIA and boom his house is hit by a drone. This is no different than what is going on in Pakistan and other countries where they are using these things.
So much for liberty.
us patriots consider obama and his clan as enemies of the u.s.
does this mean we can drone the capitol?
where does it end?
another good argument for planting trees.
do american children need another excuse to be looking over their shoulders.
a few more generations and humans will have necks like owls.
i say its gone on too long.how about we impeach obama and go four years without a president.sometimes doing nothing is better than doing the wrong thing.i dont think the whitehouse has learned that one.
Now it is being said that Chris Dorner was in a shoot out with the Police but has escaped . :o
Fugitive in shootout with police
Outlaw ex-cop Chris Dorner flees in a stolen car after exchanging fire, a source reports. Couple held hostage
LOS ANGELES (AP) — A person believed to be the fugitive ex-Los Angeles cop sought in three killings exchanged gunfire with authorities in the San Bernardino Mountains on Tuesday, a law enforcement official said on condition of anonymity.
The officer requested anonymity because the officer was not authorized to speak publicly about the ongoing investigation.
It's believed Christopher Dorner committed a residential burglary of a cabin where a couple was tied up, the officer told The Associated Press.
One of the people was able to get away and make a call.
Authorities responded to the location and gave chase when the burglar fled in a stolen car. Gunfire was exchanged.
The area is in the Big Bear region where a search for Dorner has been under way since his pickup truck was found there Thursday.
A KCAL-TV reporter in the Angelus Oaks area along Highway 38 reported gunfire in his vicinity.
The noise of the gunbattle was broadcast by the station, whose reporter suddenly found himself near the fight. Someone could be heard yelling at the reporter to get out of the area.
Road blocks are up around Big Bear.
San Bernardino County sheriff's spokeswoman Jodi Miller said a stolen vehicle report from a residence was received at 12:20 p.m.
"The reporting party identified the suspect as looking like Christopher Dorner but that has not been confirmed," Miller said.
The former Navy reservist began his run from the law on Feb. 6 after authorities connected the slayings of a former police captain's daughter and her fiance with an angry manifesto they said Dorner posted on Facebook. He vowed to bring "warfare" to Los Angeles police and their family members, which led the department to assign officers to guard more than 50 families connected to his so-called targets.
Within hours of the release of photos of the 6-foot, 270-pounder described as armed and "extremely dangerous," Dorner allegedly unsuccessfully tried to steal a boat in San Diego to flee to Mexico and then ambushed police in Riverside County, shooting three and killing one.
Jumpy officers guarding one of his targets in Torrance on Thursday shot and injured two women delivering newspapers because they mistook their pickup truck for Dorner's.
The hunt for Dorner appeared to go cold after his burned-out pickup was found later that morning in the mountains east of Los Angeles and his footprints disappeared on frozen ground.
Police found charred weapons and camping gear inside the truck, but it wasn't clear if he had fled into the San Bernardino Mountains near the resort town of Big Bear Lake or left the area.
Helicopters using heat-seeking technology searched the forest from above while scores of officers, some using bloodhounds, scoured the ground and checked hundreds of vacation cabins — many vacant this time of year — in the area. A snowstorm hindered the search and may have helped cover his tracks, though authorities were hopeful he would leave fresh footprints if hiding in the wilderness.
Dorner's beef with the department dated back at least five years, when he was fired for filing a false report accusing his training officer of kicking a mentally ill suspect. Dorner, who is black, claimed in his manifesto that he was the subject of racism by the department and fired for doing the right thing.
He said he would get even with those who wronged him in an event to reclaim his good name.
"You're going to see what a whistleblower can do when you take everything from him especially his NAME!!!" he wrote. "You have awoken a sleeping giant."
Chief Charlie Beck, who initially dismissed the allegations in Dorner's rant, said he would reopen the investigation into his firing — not to appease the ex-officer, but to restore confidence in the black community, which long had a fractured relationship with police that has improved in recent years.
One of the targets listed in the manifesto was former LAPD Capt. Randal Quan, who represented Dorner before the disciplinary board. Dorner claimed he put the interests of the department above his.
The first victims were Quan's daughter, Monica Quan, 28, a college basketball coach, and her fiance, Keith Lawrence, 27, who were shot multiple times in their car in a parking garage near their condo.
Dorner served in the Navy, earning a rifle marksman ribbon and pistol expert medal. He was assigned to a naval undersea warfare unit and various aviation training units, according to military records. He took leave from the LAPD for a six-month deployment to Bahrain in 2006 and 2007.
http://news.yahoo.com/ap-source-ex-cop-exchanges-fire-authorities-212301702.html
---------------------------------------
LA Manhunt: Dorner 'In Shootout With Police'
Fugitive ex-cop Christopher Dorner has reportedly exchanged gunfire with federal authorities in California's Big Bear Lake area.
It is believed Dorner - who is suspected of three murders - may have held a couple hostage in a holiday cabin before police tracked him down.
A police officer told the Associated Press that Dorner robbed the cabin and tied up the holidaymakers, but one was able to get away and make a phone call.
The shootout began after police arrived at the remote location and chased former LAPD officer Dorner as he fled in a stolen car.
The noise of the gun battle was broadcast by KCAL-TV, whose reporter suddenly found himself near the shooting. Someone could be heard yelling at the reporter to get out of the area.
Local media in California are reporting that two officers may have been injured.
A manhunt has centred on the San Bernardino mountains since Dorner's pickup truck was found in the area last Thursday.
San Bernardino County sheriff's spokeswoman Jodi Miller said a stolen vehicle report from a residence was received at 12:20pm.
"The reporting party identified the suspect as looking like Christopher Dorner but that has not been confirmed," Miller said.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/la-manhunt-dorner-shootout-police-212549316.html
So we have 2 links going to this thread? The fugitive in shootout link and take a rare look at how Obama point to same thread?
Well, for those stuck in a lab without TV access, here is a link to live feed of shootout scene.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/12/chris-dorner-manhunt_n_2672238.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003
So Zorg !...
So which ones LL Cool J ?
Are they both the same person or just look a likes !
I knew his name ,but I did not know much about what LL C J looks like ! ???
but looking at this picture of him, he sure looks similar...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LL_Cool_J
------------------------
Quote from: zorgon on February 12, 2013, 07:24:37 AM
Well dang...
(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/46711_4747142031354_991663930_n.jpg)
I did add a new title to one of my initial title just to indicate that he had been or is in a shootout... Whether he had been initially pursued by a drone or not ,I don't know.
Initially one article had said that he had escaped...but Another yahoo article now says that he is barricaded in a cabin.
I have not updated with the link you posted as yet to confirm.
Fugitive ex-cop barricaded in cabin
Outlaw former officer Chris Dorner has reportedly killed another deputy after stealing
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/report-ex-cop-fugitive-shoot-police-213309749.html
--------------------------------------------------
Quote from: LSWONE on February 12, 2013, 10:02:16 PM
So we have 2 links going to this thread? The fugitive in shootout link and take a rare look at how Obama point to same thread?
Well, for those stuck in a lab without TV access, here is a link to live feed of shootout scene.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/12/chris-dorner-manhunt_n_2672238.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003
latest update suggests that Fugitive did not emerge from cabin
Flames are coming from the mountain cabin where Christopher Dorner was chased.
Fugitive ex-cop Dorner reportedly dead after standoff with police
Shooting suspect Christopher Dorner, the subject of a week-long manhunt, has not emerged from a cabin destroyed by fire late this afternoon, according to The Associated Press.
Police believe the disgruntled ex-LAPD officer barricaded himself in the mountain home after a deadly shootout with officers earlier Tuesday.
A single gunshot was heard from inside the cabin just before the fire broke out about 4:30 p.m. PT, a law enforcement source who requested anonymity told the AP.
Fox News and CBS News are both reporting that Dorner has died inside the charred cabin.
Officials were waiting for the fire to burn out before approaching the ruins to search for a body, the AP reported.
[From earlier reports]
The cabin where former LAPD officer Christopher Dorner is believed to be barricaded is now on fire.
Media at the scene reported hearing numerous rounds of ammunition going off about the time the fire became fully involved. It is unknown if police and the suspect exchanged shots or if the rounds were ignited by the blaze.
It is also not known if Dorner is still inside, but according to police radio traffic, officers at the scene seem to be taking a wait-and-see approach.
Thick black smoke and flames can been seen coming from the mountain cabin, but tactical units are requesting that fire personnel stay back.
Overheard from authorities on the police radio channel:
"Hold until we start mop up with fire."
"Still not ready for fire. There's a lot of smoldering."
"More ammo going off."
"Fire doing quite well. I'm going to let it go."
Police want to let the fire burn through the basement as a precaution before entering. A firefighter raised in that residence is on the scene, and tells officers that the basement is 12 x 15 feet. The ceiling of the basement is wood.
Police captain to officers surrounding the house: "If you see something catching on fire that's not supposed to be you let me know, otherwise let it go."
Police now asking if the firefighter familiar with the house knows if there would be any reason for ammunition to be stored in the home. Firefighter has not been in the residence in years so he doesn't know.
Kyle Martin, whose family owns the burning cabin, just told CNN that it was not being rented at the time. He said it does have electricity, but no internet, phone or cable.
Police are assembling a 10-man team to keep an eye on the garage.
NBC News reports that the second officer wounded during the shootout earlier Tuesday is in serious condition, but is expected to survive.
[From earlier events]
Police said Dorner fled inside the cabin after after reportedly killing one deputy and wounding another during a gun battle earlier this afternoon.
Authorities have the cabin surrounded near Big Bear Lake, about 100 miles northeast of Los Angeles. Dozens of SWAT officers and armored vehicles have been sent to the scene.
"Enough is enough. It is time to turn yourself in," LAPD Cmdr. Andrew Smith said during a televised press conference. "It's time to end the bloodshed."
Cmdr. Smith said Tuesday's shootout between Dorner and officer occurred about 12:30 p.m. when deputies responded to a call about a vehicle have been stolen by a man resembling the wanted ex-officer.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/report-ex-cop-fugitive-shoot-police-213309749.html
Drones taking to skies in U.S.
By Brian Bennett and Joel Rubin
Chicago Tribune
Posted: 02/16/2013 12:01:00 AM CST
Updated: 02/16/2013 09:10:20 PM CST
WASHINGTON -- Even as a national debate has erupted over the Obama administration's lethal drone strikes overseas, federal authorities have stepped up efforts to license surveillance drones in U.S. airspace.
The Federal Aviation Administration said as of Friday, Feb. 15, it had issued 1,428 permits to domestic drone operators since 2007, far more than were previously known. Some 327 permits are still listed as active.
Operators include police, universities, state transportation departments and at least seven federal agencies. The remotely controlled aircraft vary widely, from devices as small as model airplanes to large unarmed Predators.
The FAA, which has a September 2015 deadline from Congress to open the nation's airspace to drone traffic, has estimated 10,000 drones could be aloft five years later. The FAA this week solicited proposals to create six sites across the country to test drones, a crucial step before widespread government and commercial use is approved.
Local and state law enforcement agencies are expected to be among the largest customers.
Earlier this month, TV footage showed a midsized drone circling over the bunker in southeast Alabama where a 65-year-old gunman held a 5-year-old boy hostage. After a tense standoff, an FBI team stormed the bunker, rescued the boy and shot his captor. Authorities refused to say who was operating the AeroVironment drone, which has a 9-foot wingspan.
In Colorado, the Mesa County Sheriff's Office has used
a fixed-wing drone to search for lost hikers in the mountains, and a helicopter drone to help crews battling fires. Flying manned planes or helicopters would cost at least $600 an hour, explained Ben Miller, who heads the program.
"We fly (drones) for less than $25 an hour," Miller said. "It's just a new way to put a camera up that's affordable."
Big-city police departments, including Los Angeles, have tested drones but are holding back on buying them until the FAA issues clear guidelines about operating in congested airspace, among other issues.
"You've got to take baby steps with this," said Michael Downing, the LAPD deputy chief for counterterrorism and special operations.
Los Angeles Police Department officials went to Simi Valley, Calif., in December, he said, to watch a demonstration of a helicopter-like device that measured about 18 inches on each side and was powered by four propellers. It could fly about 90 minutes on its battery.
Downing said the LAPD was "pursuing the idea of purchasing" drones, but wouldn't do so unless the FAA granted permission to fly them, and until the department could draw up policies on how to keep within privacy laws.
If the LAPD bought drones, Downing said, it initially would use them at major public events such as the Oscars or large protests. In time, drones could be flown to track fleeing suspects and assist in investigations. Tiny drones could even be used to fly inside buildings to shoot video if a suspect has barricaded himself within.
In theory, drones can offer unblinking eye-in-the-sky coverage. They can carry high-resolution video cameras, infrared sensors, license plate readers, listening devices and other high-tech gear. Companies have marketed drones disguised as sea gulls and other birds to mask their use.
That's the problem, according to civil liberties groups. The technology is evolving faster than the law. Congress and courts haven't determined whether drone surveillance would violate privacy laws more than manned planes or helicopters, or whether drone operators may be held liable for criminal trespassing, stalking or harassment.
"Americans have the right to know if and how the government is using drones to spy on them," said Catherine Crump, a lawyer for the American Civil Liberties Union, which has called for updating laws to protect privacy.
A backlash has started.
In Congress, Reps. Ted Poe, R-Texas, and Zoe Lofgren, D-Calif., introduced privacy legislation Thursday that would require police to get a warrant or a court order before operating a drone to collect information on individuals.
"We need to protect against obtrusive search and surveillance by government and civilian use," Poe said in a telephone interview. A similar bill failed last year.
Legislatures in 15 states are considering proposals to limit drone use.
U.S. Customs and Border Protection flies the largest fleet, 10 unarmed Predators, along the borders to help track smugglers and illegal immigrants.
In response to a question during an online Google chat Thursday, President Barack Obama said drones had never been used to kill "an American citizen on American soil."
"The rules outside of the United States are going to be different than the rules inside the United States, in part because our capacity, for example, to capture terrorists in the United States are very different than in the foothills or mountains of Afghanistan or Pakistan," Obama said.
http://www.twincities.com/national/ci_22607396/drones-taking-skies-u-s?source=rss
With that many flying around and operators watching the ground, it's only a matter of time before they start crashing into things, like other air traffic
Then we shall see the brown smelly stuff hit the oscillating blades :D
Wow this thread is all messed up.... :o
Quote from: astr0144 on February 12, 2013, 10:08:24 PM
So Zorg !...
So which ones LL Cool J ?
Are they both the same person or just look a likes !
I knew his name ,but I did not know much about what LL C J looks like ! ???
but looking at this picture of him, he sure looks similar...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LL_Cool_J
------------------------
Having spent time pouring over Ed Chiarini's work - I am going to say that the pic of "Dorner" IS LLCJ. It's FAR more than "look-alike." The points of identicalness are WAY too many to be two separate People - down to placement of wrinkles!
I say there IS no such Person as Chris Dorner. This whole thing was a setup, a drill, BS. Like Sandy Hook. Like Columbine. Like Gabby Giffords. Like [fill in the blank!]
EDIT to add: Took the two pics into gimp - not only are They the same person - the face is the same exact pic! Like They shopped the face onto a similar other person, even... Or maybe the same person ... But I tell You, no way it all could line up so exactly - eyelashes included.
EDIT (again) to add: In fact, if You look at "Dorner," you can see a stripe above the right brow (to Our left) which is where the shadow of the hat was not fully removed in shopping LLCJ's face onto whoever the original pic was of.
So very obviously the EXACT same pic of the face.
Hi Amy,
Seems like Zorgon & your initial assumption was correct
If your recent research has proven correct.
Great work if it is...
We will be wondering how come the masses
Have not questioned it, or LL cool J himself..
Maybe this needs to be spread around
The press , radio and Tv / Internet..
I don't think even Alex jones had noticed it..
Well, I don't know where that pic is from, but the "Dorner" pic is not what the media are showing:
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/2/13/1360748007410/Christopher-Dorner-010.jpg)
But even when I bring this into Photoshop, the nose width, eye width, similar wrinkles... Still could be LL.
EDIT to add: Even the teeth line up well.