Exclusive: Working-class whites are gloomy about future amid rising income gaps, racial shifts
Four out of 5 U.S. adults struggle with joblessness, near-poverty or reliance on welfare for at least parts of their lives, a sign of deteriorating economic security and an elusive American dream.
Survey data exclusive to The Associated Press points to an increasingly globalized U.S. economy, the widening gap between rich and poor, and the loss of good-paying manufacturing jobs as reasons for the trend.
The findings come as President Barack Obama tries to renew his administration's emphasis on the economy, saying in recent speeches that his highest priority is to "rebuild ladders of opportunity" and reverse income inequality.
As nonwhites approach a numerical majority in the U.S., one question is how public programs to lift the disadvantaged should be best focused — on the affirmative action that historically has tried to eliminate the racial barriers seen as the major impediment to economic equality, or simply on improving socioeconomic status for all, regardless of race.
Hardship is particularly growing among whites, based on several measures. Pessimism among that racial group about their families' economic futures has climbed to the highest point since at least 1987. In the most recent AP-GfK poll, 63 percent of whites called the economy "poor."
"I think it's going to get worse," said Irene Salyers, 52, of Buchanan County, Va., a declining coal region in Appalachia. Married and divorced three times, Salyers now helps run a fruit and vegetable stand with her boyfriend but it doesn't generate much income. They live mostly off government disability checks.
"If you do try to go apply for a job, they're not hiring people, and they're not paying that much to even go to work," she said. Children, she said, have "nothing better to do than to get on drugs."
While racial and ethnic minorities are more likely to live in poverty, race disparities in the poverty rate have narrowed substantially since the 1970s, census data show. Economic insecurity among whites also is more pervasive than is shown in the government's poverty data, engulfing more than 76 percent of white adults by the time they turn 60, according to a new economic gauge being published next year by the Oxford University Press.
The gauge defines "economic insecurity" as a year or more of periodic joblessness, reliance on government aid such as food stamps or income below 150 percent of the poverty line. Measured across all races, the risk of economic insecurity rises to 79 percent.
Marriage rates are in decline across all races, and the number of white mother-headed households living in poverty has risen to the level of black ones.
"It's time that America comes to understand that many of the nation's biggest disparities, from education and life expectancy to poverty, are increasingly due to economic class position," said William Julius Wilson, a Harvard professor who specializes in race and poverty. He noted that despite continuing economic difficulties, minorities have more optimism about the future after Obama's election, while struggling whites do not.
"There is the real possibility that white alienation will increase if steps are not taken to highlight and address inequality on a broad front," Wilson said.
___
Nationwide, the count of America's poor remains stuck at a record number: 46.2 million, or 15 percent of the population, due in part to lingering high unemployment following the recession. While poverty rates for blacks and Hispanics are nearly three times higher, by absolute numbers the predominant face of the poor is white.
More than 19 million whites fall below the poverty line of $23,021 for a family of four, accounting for more than 41 percent of the nation's destitute, nearly double the number of poor blacks.
Sometimes termed "the invisible poor" by demographers, lower-income whites generally are dispersed in suburbs as well as small rural towns, where more than 60 percent of the poor are white. Concentrated in Appalachia in the East, they are numerous in the industrial Midwest and spread across America's heartland, from Missouri, Arkansas and Oklahoma up through the Great Plains.
Buchanan County, in southwest Virginia, is among the nation's most destitute based on median income, with poverty hovering at 24 percent. The county is mostly white, as are 99 percent of its poor.
More than 90 percent of Buchanan County's inhabitants are working-class whites who lack a college degree. Higher education long has been seen there as nonessential to land a job because well-paying mining and related jobs were once in plentiful supply. These days many residents get by on odd jobs and government checks.
Salyers' daughter, Renee Adams, 28, who grew up in the region, has two children. A jobless single mother, she relies on her live-in boyfriend's disability checks to get by. Salyers says it was tough raising her own children as it is for her daughter now, and doesn't even try to speculate what awaits her grandchildren, ages 4 and 5.
Smoking a cigarette in front of the produce stand, Adams later expresses a wish that employers will look past her conviction a few years ago for distributing prescription painkillers, so she can get a job and have money to "buy the kids everything they need."
"It's pretty hard," she said. "Once the bills are paid, we might have $10 to our name."
___
Census figures provide an official measure of poverty, but they're only a temporary snapshot that doesn't capture the makeup of those who cycle in and out of poverty at different points in their lives. They may be suburbanites, for example, or the working poor or the laid off.
In 2011 that snapshot showed 12.6 percent of adults in their prime working-age years of 25-60 lived in poverty. But measured in terms of a person's lifetime risk, a much higher number — 4 in 10 adults — falls into poverty for at least a year of their lives.
The risks of poverty also have been increasing in recent decades, particularly among people ages 35-55, coinciding with widening income inequality. For instance, people ages 35-45 had a 17 percent risk of encountering poverty during the 1969-1989 time period; that risk increased to 23 percent during the 1989-2009 period. For those ages 45-55, the risk of poverty jumped from 11.8 percent to 17.7 percent.
Higher recent rates of unemployment mean the lifetime risk of experiencing economic insecurity now runs even higher: 79 percent, or 4 in 5 adults, by the time they turn 60.
By race, nonwhites still have a higher risk of being economically insecure, at 90 percent. But compared with the official poverty rate, some of the biggest jumps under the newer measure are among whites, with more than 76 percent enduring periods of joblessness, life on welfare or near-poverty.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-4-5-us-face-175906005.html
Eighty percent of Us are POOR. 19% are making ends meet. 1% are rich off our butts.
Hmmmm.
Is there a solution to this?
Quote from: Amaterasu on July 29, 2013, 03:22:13 AM
Eighty percent of Us are POOR. 19% are making ends meet. 1% are rich off our butts.
Hmmmm.
Is there a solution to this?
Communism? :P
Hang in there!
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/q71/1004650_520331461366160_1038159706_n.jpg)
A star-spangled recovery: Why the U.S. economy is showing signs of life
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/a-star-spangled-recovery/article12579981/?page=all
UNITED STATES UNEMPLOYMENT RATE
Unemployment Rate in the United States remained unchanged at 7.60 percent in June of 2013. Unemployment Rate in the United States is reported by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The United States Unemployment Rate averaged 5.82 Percent from 1948 until 2013, reaching an all time high of 10.80 Percent in December of 1982 and a record low of 2.50 Percent in May of 1953. In the United States, the unemployment rate measures the number of people actively looking for a job as a percentage of the labour force. This page contains - United States Unemployment Rate - actual values, historical data, forecast, chart, statistics, economic calendar and news. 2013-07-29
US UNEMPLOYMENT RATE AT 7.6% IN JUNE
Anna Fedec U.S. total nonfarm payroll employment increased by 195,000 in June, and the unemployment rate was unchanged at 7.6 percent, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported on July 5th. Employment rose in leisure and hospitality, professional and business services, retail trade, health care, and financial activities.
The number of unemployed persons, at 11.8 million, and the unemployment rate, at 7.6 percent, were unchanged in June. Both measures have shown little change since February.
Among the major worker groups, the unemployment rate for adult women (6.8 percent) edged up in June, while the rates for adult men (7.0 percent), teenagers (24.0 percent), whites (6.6 percent), blacks (13.7 percent), and Hispanics (9.1 percent) showed little or no change. The jobless rate for Asians was 5.0 percent (not seasonally adjusted), down from 6.3 percent a year earlier.
In June, the number of long-term unemployed (those jobless for 27 weeks or more) was essentially unchanged at 4.3 million. These individuals accounted for 36.7 percent of the unemployed. Over the past 12 months, the number of long-term unemployed has declined by 1.0 million.
The civilian labor force participation rate, at 63.5 percent, and the employment-population ratio, at 58.7 percent, changed little in June. Over the year, the labor force participation rate is down by 0.3 percentage point.
Total nonfarm payroll employment increased by 195,000 in June, in line with the average monthly gain of 182,000 over the prior 12 months. In June, job growth occurred in leisure and hospitality, professional and business services, retail trade, health care, and financial activities.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-rate
Quote from: astr0144 on July 29, 2013, 01:28:48 AM
Four out of 5 U.S. adults struggle with joblessness, near-poverty or reliance on welfare for at least parts of their lives, a sign of deteriorating economic security and an elusive American dream.
That is an important point :P
I know many people, me included that have had hard times but we survived. So did Americans during the Depression
Things will pick up as we get closer to the end of Obama's term
Personally I hope the banking system collapses before then and wipes out all debt. Start over with a clean slate. That happened to my parents in Germany it needs to happen here
There seems to be plenty of normal people with money to burn on Ebay, Etsy etc, especially on the two coasts. I am happy to relieve them of some of that
::)
Quote from: Amaterasu on July 29, 2013, 03:22:13 AM
Eighty percent of Us are POOR. 19% are making ends meet. 1% are rich off our butts.
I would challenge your figures
QuoteHmmmm.
Is there a solution to this?
Several but no one listens ;)
Same across the pond..
I'm sure I don't need to tell you all again how poor I am ? lol
Remember - it's not a recession - it's a robbery! 8)
Quote from: ArMaP on July 29, 2013, 09:30:51 PM
Communism? :P
Only if You want to perpetuate scarcity. That is a scarcity paradigm solution. I would advocate abundancism.
Quote from: Sinny on July 29, 2013, 10:55:26 PM
Remember - it's not a recession - it's a robbery! 8)
GOLD for THAT!
It is difficult to say why the world economy now and throughout history is or has been like it has been other than numerous combinations of things that had occurred or discovered to alter situations..
Much would had been down to corruption, theft wars tyrants who ruled and took other races over, some honest innovations from great discovery & inventions that created wealth.
Do humans vary or do we all have the same abilities within us to find our own paths to wealth or just go along the path that the majority do which is to work for others...That's how the majority of us have survived throughout history.
To succeed as an entrepreneur or business person may be a possibility, to obtain wealth, but it maybe that only a few of us are cut out for this and that generally its the cleverer or those born with a greater drive that may succeed...
or maybe there are ways that individuals can create various types of businesses and obtain their own piece of the pie..to make more money than the average employee.
The way the world appears now just seems disturbing for those who are either young and trying to obtain even any employment..and for older folk, they are seeming to possibly be discriminated unless they have the skills and knowledge and the right experience and there are in demand within the workplaces..
We are being told many jobs or industries are now being sent abroad where labor is cheaper to help companies survive and prosper more at the expense of their own countries people..
Does the world really have to be like this ? I suspect not...
Big business has taken such a big hold on us all that we see few other options other than unemployment or low paid jobs that do not allow us to prosper.
Technology is so complex and most people cannot understand or keep up with such a fast changing world...
High populations need more opportunities..and this is possible IMO..
but the rulers make excuses to suggest this is a problem and hold the masses in poverty..instead of being more innovative where so much more could be done in the world with the huge gap of human potential that has and is being wasted..
Maybe we could be creating the star ships for the future and exploring the universe more if that is a possibility as well as doing more for our planet...
QuoteEighty percent of Us are POOR. 19% are making ends meet. 1% are rich off our butts.
Hmmmm.
Is there a solution to this?
Since 2007 & Leading up to 2013.. the US stock market had appeared to be similar to that of 1929 ..and appeared to be going to have a severe decline...it is often said that similar cycles repeat in history.
BUT SINCE MARCH 5TH 2013... IT MADE NEW ALL TIME HIGHS ON THE DOW JONES and the S&P 500 Index made new highs on April 10th 2013...and they have remained strong since...
Which does suggest that the economy is strong at least in one way or another. although it is said that the $ US currency is weak and maybe what we see in the stock market alone is misleading..
Looking at the chart formations on these markets, I now do not see any upcoming severe declines expected like that of 1929 where a major depression set in for many years.
But we may well see a correction any time back to the 2007 highs of 14200 or lower maybe to 13000 on the Dow. by October..
IF the Dow breaks its recent 15620 high made on 24th July 2013, I suspect we could see a continued rally into August September maybe to 16200 to 16666...
if this ocurs, I wouldn't count out a large correction...similar to the 1987 crash... that was only a correction not a major crash like that of 1929..
could be a great opportunity for a quick high return if use the right strategy..
I had a main cycle in last week that I expected the market to move in one direction to September/ october , but I am awaiting a break out between a low of 15400 to a high of 15620 to suggest a longer term direction.
market may continue down rather than up if it declines below 15400 into Sept / october instead...
this is what another analyst suggests..
http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/breakout/stocks-heading-1987-style-crash-112708615.html
QuoteThat is an important point :P
I know many people, me included that have had hard times but we survived. So did Americans during the Depression
Personally I hope the banking system collapses before then and wipes out all debt. Start over with a clean slate. That happened to my parents in Germany it needs to happen here
Quote from: ArMaP on July 30, 2013, 12:48:50 AM
How?
One "pie" that everyOne puts Their energy as They can into creating; It requires Human energy input, winds up with money of some kind, with privilege going to the Ones who are running things.
Abundance has all NECESSARY work no One WANTS to do - or not enough People - being done by robot, with no money needed. Governance is stigmergic, as are works We join together to create for betterment, be that in art, science, or adding to bliss in the field of Consciousness.
ALL are privileged.
Did that answer the question?
poverty?
i define poverty.not the rigged stockmarket and unemployed numbers.
me my wife and daughter live on 700 a month cash and 350 in foodstamps.been living this way for five years.in last month ive gotten a ticket for no insurance while on the way to insurance office.got ticket last week for not using my blinker in the country with no one around to signal to.except a stalking cop parked behind a building behind me.otherwise not a soul around.one hour later.my transmission broke.triple a towed my car home.now im stuck ten miles from town with no car.waiting on our gov check.thankgoodness there are a few neighbors who care about us.
thats why im so greatful for my investors in my project.i just couldnt do it without them.
the future doesnt look good when the lies are all removed.i think our politicians are running scared and afraid to vote on anything.
Quote from: Amaterasu on July 30, 2013, 03:35:30 AM
One "pie" that everyOne puts Their energy as They can into creating; It requires Human energy input, winds up with money of some kind, with privilege going to the Ones who are running things.
Who said anything about money? :) I was talking about what I usually call "natural" communism.
Also, what's wrong in people doing things that can be used by anyone else? It's something that can be done now, instead of waiting for things like free energy and perfect robots.
i believe we are living in a communist solcialist country that claims to be a democracy.the mob takes from the rich and rich take from the mob.
Quote from: robomont on July 30, 2013, 01:18:36 PM
i believe we are living in a communist solcialist country that claims to be a democracy.the mob takes from the rich and rich take from the mob.
I think terms like socialist or communist are redundant today.
They have meant different things to different generations depending on where in the world you are at the time.
If you are going to attach a moniker to modern day america the term to me would be more like fascist.
Elvis.
Also I think we all know by now the word democracy is a joke.
The only time that word would be of any real relevance to the people of the world, would be if there was a form of proportional representation in place. I.e one person one vote.
Of course that would NEVER happen, and thats how you know the whole system is not and never has been about "the people".
Imagine governments giving people some actual say in their own lives.
So i wouldnt even go for the term fascist actually.
I think Orwell and Huxley were right back in the day, when they bandied around the word "totalitarian".
That is a more fitting moniker.
Elvis.
Quote from: ArMaP on July 30, 2013, 11:09:50 AM
Who said anything about money? :) I was talking about what I usually call "natural" communism.
Well then. Explain what that is...
QuoteAlso, what's wrong in people doing things that can be used by anyone else? It's something that can be done now, instead of waiting for things like free energy and perfect robots.
Huh? Who said there was anything wrong with People doing things that can be used by Others? Surely We can do such things now - IF We can AFFORD to. And THAT's the rub. Most CAN'T.
Quote from: robomont on July 30, 2013, 01:18:36 PM
i believe we are living in a communist solcialist country that claims to be a democracy.the mob takes from the rich and rich take from the mob.
Communism and socialism (and capitalism) are economic models. Democracy is a political model.
Therefore, One can have democratic communism, democratic socialism, democratic capitalism.
Abundancism makes all, who WANT to be, RICH.
Quote from: Elvis Hendrix on July 30, 2013, 02:29:24 PM
Also I think we all know by now the word democracy is a joke.
The only time that word would be of any real relevance to the people of the world, would be if there was a form of proportional representation in place. I.e one person one vote.
Of course that would NEVER happen, and thats how you know the whole system is not and never has been about "the people".
Imagine governments giving people some actual say in their own lives.
So i wouldnt even go for the term fascist actually.
I think Orwell and Huxley were right back in the day, when they bandied around the word "totalitarian".
That is a more fitting moniker.
Elvis.
Have You read My piece, Stigmergic Governance Via the Web?
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/forum/index.php?topic=2103.0
Quote from: Amaterasu on July 30, 2013, 03:39:10 PM
Have You read My piece, Stigmergic Governance Via the Web?
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/forum/index.php?topic=2103.0
I hav'nt mate but i will.
cheers.
Quote from: Amaterasu on July 30, 2013, 03:39:10 PM
Have You read My piece, Stigmergic Governance Via the Web?
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/forum/index.php?topic=2103.0
Very imaginative piece my friend. It truly would take a sea change in social culture for it to work, but I like the premise.
One thing is certain, the current system has evolved into redundancy
and needs throwing out.. So we need wild ideas. The more the merrier.
I tell you what, your idea would make a great movie ;)
Thanks for the heads up.
Elvis.
Quote from: Elvis Hendrix on July 30, 2013, 04:19:25 PM
Very imaginative piece my friend. It truly would take a sea change in social culture for it to work, but I like the premise.
One thing is certain, the current system has evolved into redundancy
and needs throwing out.. So we need wild ideas. The more the merrier.
I tell you what, your idea would make a great movie ;)
Thanks for the heads up.
Elvis.
One problem with the systems We have today is that there is no review of past "laws" and elimination of them if they are not working, or no working well. We wind up with millions of "laws" on the books, many conflicting with others.
I like abundance, because there are three Laws. That's it. Most "laws" (actually statutes, codes, regulations, etc.) are in place because at one time or another there was a COMMERCIAL reason for them. With commerce gone, most "laws" become moot. The "laws" that remain are some form of the three Laws, and as such, also become moot.
Quote from: robomont on July 30, 2013, 01:18:36 PM
i believe we are living in a communist solcialist country that claims to be a democracy.the mob takes from the rich and rich take from the mob.
Agreed. The two beast's we are currently dealing with are Corporate and Governmential Socialism. If I had to guess, I'd be inclined to say the Corporates are 'winning' - and the only contender in the Government is obviously the blood sucking leech of the Military Idustrial Complex.
On a side note - I sis post my meterial on these two aspects of Socialism on this site didn't I? I was looking for that particular post last night and couldn't find it :(
Socialism in an ideal world, would be the ideal solution - although maybe I'd agree and name it the 'Abundance' program.
Everything shared equally and auditted by the public for the public... Obviously that's not going to happen whilst I can walk unaided lol.
On a side note - I was just informed in a staff meeting in no uncertain terms, we strive for results, not striving to support our 'clients' (UK Work Programme).. This sort of shizzle makes my blood boil, but what am I supposed to do? Quit and become one of the job seekers I administrate? Aha.
We're all being eaten alive by these systems.
If I ever meet my higher self (That's probably not even tangible) - I'd slap my self for placing me in a human body here on Earth!
I don't know what's happening to me lately - I can be a cold hearted biatch in most instances, however, I've recently started crying at every revolutionary picture I see posted on the internet.
Blehhhhh.
May I point out that the military industrial complex is profit-driven and that this accounts for Them infiltrating, propagandizing, fear promoting, and inciting war.
So is the prison industrial complex. So is Big [Pharma, Oil, Insurance, Banking, Medicine, "News," etc.].
If We were to remove profit motive (and power over Others), war, drive to imprison, "treatments" that require more "treatments," forced reliance on oil, any need for insurance (or defrauding it), banks, "healing" for profit, lies, etc. will be DRASTICALLY reduced or eliminated.
Cures would become available; doctors would be doctors because They CARE...
And it IS possible to eliminate the need for money which allows profit and power over Others, as well as allowing the psychopaths to rise to the top of the money/power heap.
Quote from: Sinny on July 30, 2013, 05:35:04 PM
Socialism in an ideal world, would be the ideal solution - although maybe I'd agree and name it the 'Abundance' program.
Everything shared equally and auditted by the public for the public... Obviously that's not going to happen whilst I can walk unaided lol.
If We are ensuring everyone gets an "equal" share, it is NOT abundance; it is communism. There is enough on this planet for 10 times the number presently here. WHY do We need accounting at ALL? Everything AVAILABLE equally; One may have as much as One wants. Most are satisfied when comfortable.
Quote from: robomont on July 30, 2013, 01:18:36 PM
i believe we are living in a communist solcialist country that claims to be a democracy.the mob takes from the rich and rich take from the mob.
There is no electricity bill in Libya; electricity is free for all its citizens.
There is no interest on loans, banks in Libya are state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at zero percent interest by law.
Having a home considered a human right in Libya.
All newlyweds in Libya receive $60,000 dinar (U.S.$50,000) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start up the family.
Education and medical treatments are free in Libya. Before Gaddafi only 25 percent of Libyans were literate. Today, the figure is 83 percent.
Should Libyans want to take up farming career, they would receive farming land, a farming house, equipments, seeds and livestock to kickstart their farms are all for free.
If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need, the government funds them to go abroad, for it is not only paid for, but they get a U.S.$2,300/month for accommodation and car allowance.
If a Libyan buys a car, the government subsidizes 50 percent of the price.
The price of petrol in Libya is $0.14 per liter.
Libya has no external debt and its reserves amounting to $150 billion are now frozen globally.
If a Libyan is unable to get employment after graduation the state would pay the average salary of the profession, as if he or she is employed, until employment is found.
A portion of every Libyan oil sale is credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.
A mother who gives birth to a child receive U.S.$5,000.
40 loaves of bread in Libya costs $0.15.
25 percent of Libyans have a university degree.
Gaddafi carried out the world's largest irrigation project, known as the Great Manmade River project, to make water readily available throughout the desert country.-- From here (http://disinfo.com/2011/10/16-things-libya-will-never-see-again/), although that is also a repost.
America can be considered socialist only in the narrow sense that certain corporations were protected from failure by the government; but the truth is, that genuinely socialist systems do not merely economically protect any single demographic of the population, but anyone who needs it. Try looking up some information about Chavez in Venezuela, as another example.
America, to describe it most specifically, is currently a corporate aristocracy, or what is sometimes referred to as a corporate oligarchy. You have a few corporations such as Halliburton, Goldman Sachs, and the Federal Reserve, and they in reality run the country. They control who inhabits the executive branch, and they bribe the legislative branch in order to ensure that the laws they want are passed.
Americans have been brainwashed to believe that Randian Capitalism is synonymous with freedom. The reality is, however, that while we can define freedom as the ability to follow your own nature, as you would if not interfered with by a third party, Nature itself imposes certain restrictions. By this I mean the need for food, water, heat, shelter, and oxygen; and those needs are generally more effectively met if they are done so in a group, rather than alone.
Something else which Americans need to begin to realise, is that the people at the top of the Capitalistic food chain, do not themselves believe in individuality to the degree that they want you to think. Why do you think they form cartels, or go to their Bilderberg meetings, or other such things? All of that involves them collaborating, making alliances, and working together for mutual benefit.
Individualism is an important thing to maintain, as far as critical thinking, creativity, and being able to reason for yourself, independently of the prevailing groupthink is concerned. Yet when it comes to logistical management, or obtaining the things you need for biological survival, an excessive obsession with individuality, or being alone, can be lethal. Despite what you have been told, "financial independence," does not in fact exist, because the only way in which it is possible to make money at all, is via transactions with other people.
Quote from: petrus4 on July 30, 2013, 06:34:57 PM
There is no electricity bill in Libya; electricity is free for all its citizens.
There is no interest on loans, banks in Libya are state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at zero percent interest by law.
Having a home considered a human right in Libya.
All newlyweds in Libya receive $60,000 dinar (U.S.$50,000) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start up the family.
Education and medical treatments are free in Libya. Before Gaddafi only 25 percent of Libyans were literate. Today, the figure is 83 percent.
Should Libyans want to take up farming career, they would receive farming land, a farming house, equipments, seeds and livestock to kickstart their farms are all for free.
If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need, the government funds them to go abroad, for it is not only paid for, but they get a U.S.$2,300/month for accommodation and car allowance.
If a Libyan buys a car, the government subsidizes 50 percent of the price.
The price of petrol in Libya is $0.14 per liter.
Libya has no external debt and its reserves amounting to $150 billion are now frozen globally.
If a Libyan is unable to get employment after graduation the state would pay the average salary of the profession, as if he or she is employed, until employment is found.
A portion of every Libyan oil sale is credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.
A mother who gives birth to a child receive U.S.$5,000.
40 loaves of bread in Libya costs $0.15.
25 percent of Libyans have a university degree.
Gaddafi carried out the world's largest irrigation project, known as the Great Manmade River project, to make water readily available throughout the desert country.
-- From here (http://disinfo.com/2011/10/16-things-libya-will-never-see-again/), although that is also a repost.
America can be considered socialist only in the narrow sense that certain corporations were protected from failure by the government; but the truth is, that genuinely socialist systems do not merely economically protect any single demographic of the population, but anyone who needs it. Try looking up some information about Chavez in Venezuela, as another example.
America, to describe it most specifically, is currently a corporate aristocracy, or what is sometimes referred to as a corporate oligarchy. You have a few corporations such as Halliburton, Goldman Sachs, and the Federal Reserve, and they in reality run the country. They control who inhabits the executive branch, and they bribe the legislative branch in order to ensure that the laws they want are passed.
Americans have been brainwashed to believe that Randian Capitalism is synonymous with freedom. The reality is, however, that while we can define freedom as the ability to follow your own nature, as you would if not interfered with by a third party, Nature itself imposes certain restrictions. By this I mean the need for food, water, heat, shelter, and oxygen; and those needs are generally more effectively met if they are done so in a group, rather than alone.
Something else which Americans need to begin to realise, is that the people at the top of the Capitalistic food chain, do not themselves believe in individuality to the degree that they want you to think. Why do you think they form cartels, or go to their Bilderberg meetings, or other such things? All of that involves them collaborating, making alliances, and working together for mutual benefit.
Individualism is an important thing to maintain, as far as critical thinking, creativity, and being able to reason for yourself, independently of the prevailing groupthink is concerned. Yet when it comes to logistical management, or obtaining the things you need for biological survival, an excessive obsession with individuality, or being alone, can be lethal. Despite what you have been told, "financial independence," does not in fact exist, because the only way in which it is possible to make money at all, is via transactions with other people.
Il give that a bit of gold I think.
Quote from: Elvis Hendrix on July 30, 2013, 02:29:24 PM
The only time that word would be of any real relevance to the people of the world, would be if there was a form of proportional representation in place. I.e one person one vote.
Isn't that how it's done, one person one vote? ???
Quote from: Amaterasu on July 30, 2013, 03:27:10 PM
Well then. Explain what that is...
It's the system used (I don't know if it's still used, but it was some 20 years ago) in some small villages in the north of Portugal, where all the cattle, the land and what it produces, the water, everything, is the property of all the people that live there. They have schedules to do the different works, so some person may be responsible for the sheep for a month and in the next month he/she may be planting cabbages or treating the cows, for example.
Quote from: Elvis Hendrix on July 30, 2013, 07:18:03 PM
Il give that a bit of gold I think.
Thanks, Elvis.
My overall point, however, was to emphasise the fact that Capitalism is not the dominant economic system because it produces the most effective, positive, or socially beneficial result. It is the dominant system because its' advocates murder and destroy all other alternatives.
I will never forget a moment that I experienced, while playing the computer game, Call of Duty: Black Ops. One of the levels in the single player campaign for that game, is a scenario in which you are in a jail with a number of Russians, and you have to stage a prison break. During a scene where my character was standing in the exercise yard and a message came over the PA system, I suddenly realised that this was, in fact, the default condition of most of the planet's population. That the American government had created a scenario where less than 5% of the human population lived in relative luxury, while the other 95%+ were perpetually held face down in the mud.
Gadaffi might have been mentally ill; I won't challenge that assumption. I do, however, believe that to a degree at least, he had a desire to change the above scenario; as have a lot of the political figures who the American government has demonised as bogeymen. Although he genuinely
was murderous, some research into the infrastructural quality which Sadaam maintained in Iraq may prove enlightening, as well.
Again, I'm not suggesting for one moment that the Holodomor, Mao's purges in China, and other attrocities have not occurred on the other side of the fence; but in reality, the situation is nowhere near as cut and dried as Capitalism's advocates would have you believe. As the saying goes, the truth is out there.
i lived rich and poor.if you aint maken 100,000$ a year in todays money then you aint livin the american dream.if your workin 80 hours a week to earn it then your not livin either.
$20,000 a year is chump change that the young and ignorant take to survive.then the rich buy up all the assets and rent them back to us.a race to the bottom.eventually the corporations own our boddies and our time.
we are currently paying to be propagandized.ie dish
we are currently paying to be spied on.cellphones and computers.
i say eat the rich before they eat anymore of us.
Quote from: Amaterasu on July 30, 2013, 06:12:10 PM
If We are ensuring everyone gets an "equal" share, it is NOT abundance; it is communism. There is enough on this planet for 10 times the number presently here. WHY do We need accounting at ALL? Everything AVAILABLE equally; One may have as much as One wants. Most are satisfied when comfortable.
Yea, I worded that one wrong. Make that 'an equal share of abundance' lol.
Quote from: Sinny on July 31, 2013, 08:29:34 AM
Yea, I worded that one wrong. Make that 'an equal share of abundance' lol.
Equality, in and of itself, is actually an erroneous concept, in a way. I experience different levels of hunger at different times. Sometimes I'll want a steak; other times I'm only feeling like a relatively small amount of vegetables and rice.
So equality in pure
amount terms, does not tend to be what people want, as much as the ability to obtain whatever satisfies them. If each person is able to eat until they are satisfied, then we can say that they have equality in terms of that ability, but if they truly have the ability to choose what they want, then the type and amount of food consumed will very often be somewhat different.
The point is to create a scenario where one person does not
starve, while others have vastly more than they can ever need or use.
I don't think of TAP, then, as providing set amounts of a given resource; again, that is Communistic. The idea is actually to get to the point technologically, where each person is capable of having as much as they want; that is the definition of abundance. Each person having as much as they want, again, does not imply equality in set amounts of physical stuff, at all; it implies equality in the sense that each person can decide said amount, or the types of resources, for themselves.
In that sense, you could say I have something in common with transhumanists, although there is much about their philosophy which I am also wary of, as I have mentioned.
Today we're beginning to have 3D printing; eventually we will have full matter replication. This will happen because nanotechnology will progress to the point where we can literally edit the atoms and molecules of a substance, until they are identical to the substance we want, even if said substance was previously non-renewable.
So it is going to happen; the only real obstacle in the way, is the question of will. We have to get to the point where we are no longer willing to allow our current economic paradigms, and the cynicism and psychological damage which cause them, to distort and inhibit our inherent desire to mutually reinforce and nurture each other. Compassion can not develop in an individual until they have had all of their most pressing physical and emotional needs met; but once that has happened, it can.
i agree with all you said petrus.
Agreed Petrus.
Quote from: ArMaP on July 30, 2013, 11:34:35 PM
It's the system used (I don't know if it's still used, but it was some 20 years ago) in some small villages in the north of Portugal, where all the cattle, the land and what it produces, the water, everything, is the property of all the people that live there. They have schedules to do the different works, so some person may be responsible for the sheep for a month and in the next month he/she may be planting cabbages or treating the cows, for example.
Yes. Something that requires Human energy input for the basics to survive. What if someOne HATED sheep or cabbages or cows...? Who gets to determine what Others do? What if One LOVED the sheep and just wanted THAT job? What if EVERYONE hated all the jobs? What if all One wanted to do was sit and write music? Or a book?
EveryOne who doesn't LOVE the work, who hates it in fact, is stuck.
Abundance allows Us ALL to do as We choose. No Human energy required for the basics. No accounting for how much anyOne gets. This planet is plentiful and abundant.
Quote from: Sinny on July 31, 2013, 08:29:34 AM
Yea, I worded that one wrong. Make that 'an equal share of abundance' lol.
If You had a warehouse full of pies and You had to get rid of as many of them as You could, would You search everyOne that came along to take pies to make sure everyOne got the same number of pies?
There ARE no "shares" in abundance. There is so much on this planet, that everyOne may have AS MUCH AS THEY WANT and still We would have plenty. Once You start applying "equal shares" of ANYTHING, You have communism, and policing, and oppression as some ensure Others don't get more than Their "fair share." And Those who do the ensuring...have access to MORE than the rest and often take it.
So... Even reworded, it is communism and not abundancism when We feel We must worry about "fair shares."
Quote from: petrus4 on July 31, 2013, 09:07:31 AM
Equality, in and of itself, is actually an erroneous concept, in a way. I experience different levels of hunger at different times. Sometimes I'll want a steak; other times I'm only feeling like a relatively small amount of vegetables and rice.
So equality in pure amount terms, does not tend to be what people want, as much as the ability to obtain whatever satisfies them. If each person is able to eat until they are satisfied, then we can say that they have equality in terms of that ability, but if they truly have the ability to choose what they want, then the type and amount of food consumed will very often be somewhat different.
The point is to create a scenario where one person does not starve, while others have vastly more than they can ever need or use.
I don't think of TAP, then, as providing set amounts of a given resource; again, that is Communistic. The idea is actually to get to the point technologically, where each person is capable of having as much as they want; that is the definition of abundance. Each person having as much as they want, again, does not imply equality in set amounts of physical stuff, at all; it implies equality in the sense that each person can decide said amount, or the types of resources, for themselves.
In that sense, you could say I have something in common with transhumanists, although there is much about their philosophy which I am also wary of, as I have mentioned.
Today we're beginning to have 3D printing; eventually we will have full matter replication. This will happen because nanotechnology will progress to the point where we can literally edit the atoms and molecules of a substance, until they are identical to the substance we want, even if said substance was previously non-renewable.
So it is going to happen; the only real obstacle in the way, is the question of will. We have to get to the point where we are no longer willing to allow our current economic paradigms, and the cynicism and psychological damage which cause them, to distort and inhibit our inherent desire to mutually reinforce and nurture each other. Compassion can not develop in an individual until they have had all of their most pressing physical and emotional needs met; but once that has happened, it can.
Brilliantly put, petrus! I snuck some gold in Your direction.
Quote from: Amaterasu on July 31, 2013, 03:54:04 PM
Yes. Something that requires Human energy input for the basics to survive. What if someOne HATED sheep or cabbages or cows...? Who gets to determine what Others do? What if One LOVED the sheep and just wanted THAT job? What if EVERYONE hated all the jobs? What if all One wanted to do was sit and write music? Or a book?
EveryOne who doesn't LOVE the work, who hates it in fact, is stuck.
True, but it's doable, today. :)
So is abundance if We all chose to do it. (Or at least most of Us...)
Quote from: Amaterasu on July 31, 2013, 11:57:01 PM
So is abundance if We all chose to do it. (Or at least most of Us...)
Really? How? ???
Quote from: Amaterasu on July 31, 2013, 03:54:04 PM
Yes. Something that requires Human energy input for the basics to survive. What if someOne HATED sheep or cabbages or cows...? Who gets to determine what Others do? What if One LOVED the sheep and just wanted THAT job? What if EVERYONE hated all the jobs?
Well in the closed system ArMaP described I would assume it was a mutaul agreement in other words all those people WANTED to do it that way
QuoteWhat if all One wanted to do was sit and write music? Or a book?
Well if everyone wanted to do only that who would get the job done? I could list a hundred dirty jobs that NO ONE really wants to do but the are a necessity for a big city to function. Who would do those jobs? And NO robots can't do them, at least not yet So who would do those?
QuoteEveryOne who doesn't LOVE the work, who hates it in fact, is stuck.
But don't we already have that situation? Those that HATE work in our society have no money ::)
QuoteAbundance allows Us ALL to do as We choose. No Human energy required for the basics. No accounting for how much anyOne gets. This planet is plentiful and abundant.
So basically... a global welfare system :D free handouts no need to work ergo no incentive to achieve.... anything Result? stagnation, sloth and basically a planet full of useless eaters
in effect :P
amy goes on in 3 min
Quote from: ArMaP on August 01, 2013, 12:08:35 AM
Really? How? ???
If most of Us were thinking implementing the ideas was a good thing, likely some of them will be toadies and the info We need will be released. Add free energy everywhere. Start spending on retrofits, and new products. As the cost of energy is removed, robots become affordable. Spend money on robots in necessary work no One wants to do. Have competitions, even.
5-10 years from FE release, and We will not need money.
Quote from: Amaterasu on August 01, 2013, 02:19:20 AM
Add free energy everywhere.
Where's that free energy? ???
Quote from: zorgon on August 01, 2013, 12:54:23 AM
Well in the closed system ArMaP described I would assume it was a mutaul agreement in other words all those people WANTED to do it that way
And that's fine if all WANT to do it that way. If Those who decide They don't can move away. In abundance I see many such communities.
QuoteWell if everyone wanted to do only that who would get the job done?
Robots.
QuoteI could list a hundred dirty jobs that NO ONE really wants to do but the are a necessity for a big city to function. Who would do those jobs? And NO robots can't do them, at least not yet So who would do those?
Bet robots COULD do that now. They have robots for cleaning sewers...
QuoteBut don't we already have that situation? Those that HATE work in our society have no money ::)
Not so. I had money when I was in banking. I HATED the job(s).
QuoteSo basically... a global welfare system :D free handouts no need to work ergo no incentive to achieve.... anything Result? stagnation, sloth and basically a planet full of useless eaters
Not so. We will do things for SOCIAL currency. Just as You do the ren faire type stuff. Just as starving artists now do Their work - only They would not starve and have all Their tools available. Just as musicians (and Those who WOULD be if They could afford an instrument) would create music...
People who CARE will become doctors. People who CARE will become archaeologists. People who CARE will report on the world around Them...
I know of few children (not counting fluoridated medicated kids) who have nothing They are fascinated by. That They want to do... Most cannot afford to follow that bliss.
Quotein effect :P
I bet if You asked anyOne if They could retire with an unlimited bank account, NONE would say They would sit on a sofa and be a vegetable.