I posted this on ATS, but thought it should be posted here, too. The Ethical Planetarian Party is a planetary, sociological (NOT political) "party." It's aims are to free Humanity, and Those who read My petition thread will see that many of the ideas are reiterated here, or outright copied. Still, this is a clean description of a Betterment-inspired idea set that I hopes spreads.
----------------------------
Have You tired of the empty promises of politicians? Have You seen the "divide and conquer" successes in everything from school teams to country identities? Do You want the planet to coexist?
Perhaps You might consider the Ethical Planetarian Party.
What is the Ethical Planetarian Party? What are its goals and platform?
First, We stand for upholding the three Laws:
1. Do not willfully harm or kill another Being
2. Do not willfully take or damage another Being's property
3. Do not willfully defraud another Being
In other words, We choose to maintain civil interaction, face to face. The biological parent has precedence in the case of Our children, unless there is evidence that these same Laws are not kept with Them as well. They are Beings, too. Beings are any who ask for rights, or have Others of the same species ask in proxy if They are unable to ask, Themselves. This is not license to mal-treat beings of "lower" Consciousness, for all Consciousness should be respected. The goal is for as much of Consciousness to spend as much of the time as possible comfortable.
A quick, clean and honorable death for the flesh a Being eats, having given comfort throughout the life of any domestic food.
Second, We are predicated on the idea that Humans should be free to take advantage of the abundance of the planet by eliminating money through free energy.
Third, We strive to allow religious choice, believing that there are as many Callings as there are Beings, and as long as the Laws are kept, how One approaches that which One is, is to be respected.
Fourth, We expect the use of technology under these Laws, with peaceful intent, including free energy – the key to eliminating money. We know much is presently hidden in fear that We might exact retribution or follow folly, but We are of the opinion, based on evidence, that when Humans have no money, generosity and loving behavior are expended to help Those in need. With technology We both have personal awareness of and much science and anecdote grasped, We know We can eliminate money as a necessity and provide abundance for everyOne. We call for the release of electrogravitics from black ops, where it has been held secret for over 50 years.
We are out to eliminate poverty.
Fifth, We will bring forth a website where problems can be brought up locally and People can "vote" to bump a problem up, down, show apathy by not voting, and chime in with solutions (which can be cheered and booed). Issues will drop off after the original poster indicates that the problem has been resolved or withdrawn, or there has been no activity after, say, six months (that is not set in stone). Social responsibility will be defined as spending 15 minutes a day examining issues on this site.
Also, issues with some set number of bumps up will be considered issues that need a wider awareness and go to regional sections. From there, continental, perhaps, and then global, as more are needed to be involved in solving the problem. Problems will beget the awareness to solve them.
Without money as a motive, problems will be solved more creatively, directly, harmoniously, and within the three Laws.
Sixth, We are staunch in our support of an organic planet. Though hybridization is an awesome tool, genetically modifying organisms is NOT. Without money, there is no motivation to create GMO. We know that organics can produce on par or better yield and better nutrition than their petrochemically "fertilized" brethren. Any non-organic approaches to problems will be highly discouraged, unless it is seen that such a solution is the best.
Beyond this, sustainability is Our goal.
Seventh, We see that, without money, We can build machines – robots – to do all necessary work. Without work as an "ethic," We substitute a "Betterment Ethic," and encourage all to look for ways – within the three Laws and with organic solutions prized – to improve conditions on this planet for everyOne, and offer these ideas for consideration and possible action.
Eighth, We understand that virtually all crime is, on one level or another, related to money, and without money as motive, virtually all crime will vanish – leaving the very few, passion-related crimes for Us to deal with. We will deal with all crime publicly, and Those who care can and will decide each case. Most such choice of behavior will lead to social pariah-hood for the perpetrators.
Ninth, We support open source in all things We program. This allows for many to make suggestions for betterment, and ensures that no one will create outside the three Laws. It also eliminates "back doors," and other surreptitious software segments that bog down the clean functioning of the program. Without money as a motive, programmers will be proud to offer Their work for scrutinization and use, openly and freely. Status will be gained for creating the best programs.
Tenth, We understand that food waste is rampant with food distributed by profit, abundant as it is but poorly and/or untimely delivered. Without money, food distribution will be based on need and not profit, ensuring that waste is minimal, food is fresh for all (no One waiting for the wilted cast-offs), and readily available.
Though these approaches are revolutionary, We understand that if enough People are on board, a fresh, free, fun, and fulfilling life will be Ours – and everyone else's – as We choose. No One needs to change anything except where there is a problem – and then Those who care are free to solve it within the three Laws.
Without money, bureaucracy will become unnecessary, vastly reducing paper use, and streamlining solutions. Jobs in banking, insurance, and other such money-related industries will disappear, and in their place, the opportunity to spend time as One wishes.
Transportation will be free – for Ourselves, Our food and product systems, and any other transportation needs. This offers the ability to go where One wishes, moving food to where it is needed, and other freedom We presently do not have, with transportation energy costing so much.
We are a planetary party and decry any solutions that maintain a "divide and conquer" attitude or outcome, including stateism, nationalism, partyism, teamism, etc. We are one species on one planet, and we seek to benefit the planet ethically and wholly.
To join, merely state that You are a member. All that is required, as a Party member, is to inform Others about the Ethical Planetarian Party – send this link, or copy and paste to email this content.
________________________
To sign the petition calling for the release of electrogravitics from black ops, click here:
http://www.change.org/petitions/us-military-release-the-technology-of-electrogravitics
I am rather amused that this topic has received no comments. I was hoping to hear some thoughts about it...
AnyOne?
All good Ideas, Amaterasu but in order to succed we have to do a hell of a lot of work.
Invent free energy and create a system where everyone gets a vote via the internet being just two of the requirements.
I'm wondering if we are actually going to get much longer to work on it.
FB!
Quote from: Amaterasu on October 18, 2012, 08:59:04 PM
I am rather amused that this topic has received no comments. I was hoping to hear some thoughts about it...
AnyOne?
Just saw it on mobile, will reply when I have a full keyboard in front of me!!!
Le
i think apathy should carry a vote too.a vote of no confidence is still a vote.and all votes should come with none of the above.
this way the world works more harmoniusly tho be it slower.
Quote from: Amaterasu on January 27, 2012, 11:09:22 PM
I posted this on ATS, but thought it should be posted here, too. The Ethical Planetarian Party is a planetary, sociological (NOT political) "party." It's aims are to free Humanity, and Those who read My petition thread will see that many of the ideas are reiterated here, or outright copied. Still, this is a clean description of a Betterment-inspired idea set that I hopes spreads.
----------------------------
Have You tired of the empty promises of politicians? Have You seen the "divide and conquer" successes in everything from school teams to country identities? Do You want the planet to coexist?
Perhaps You might consider the Ethical Planetarian Party.
What is the Ethical Planetarian Party? What are its goals and platform?
First, We stand for upholding the three Laws:
1. Do not willfully harm or kill another Being
2. Do not willfully take or damage another Being's property
3. Do not willfully defraud another Being
In other words, We choose to maintain civil interaction, face to face. The biological parent has precedence in the case of Our children, unless there is evidence that these same Laws are not kept with Them as well. They are Beings, too. Beings are any who ask for rights, or have Others of the same species ask in proxy if They are unable to ask, Themselves. This is not license to mal-treat beings of "lower" Consciousness, for all Consciousness should be respected. The goal is for as much of Consciousness to spend as much of the time as possible comfortable.
Total agreement..the children and those less sensible in certain ways, regardless of their inability to understand the world around them, doesnt mean they are not as important in the grand scheme of things..we all have an important job to do here, whether its to live our lives as a person who never questions anything , or one who questions everything..all the same, and all equal in the eyes of the universe.
QuoteA quick, clean and honorable death for the flesh a Being eats, having given comfort throughout the life of any domestic food.
Exactly, and a general push towards non animal, or non-mammal based food supplies, as to balance the human body and eliminate the meat based issues with our health..we all started out as vegetarians and meat just became a way of feeding when we observed animals eating each other..and adopted the same behaviour patterns.
QuoteSecond, We are predicated on the idea that Humans should be free to take advantage of the abundance of the planet by eliminating money through free energy.
I like this as number one..but two will do!;)
QuoteThird, We strive to allow religious choice, believing that there are as many Callings as there are Beings, and as long as the Laws are kept, how One approaches that which One is, is to be respected.
in a word..tolerance...without prejudice and forcefulness of doctrines upon the fellow man.
QuoteFourth, We expect the use of technology under these Laws, with peaceful intent, including free energy – the key to eliminating money. We know much is presently hidden in fear that We might exact retribution or follow folly, but We are of the opinion, based on evidence, that when Humans have no money, generosity and loving behavior are expended to help Those in need. With technology We both have personal awareness of and much science and anecdote grasped, We know We can eliminate money as a necessity and provide abundance for everyOne. We call for the release of electrogravitics from black ops, where it has been held secret for over 50 years.
We are out to eliminate poverty.
yep, well said..there's no I in team..and yes, lets see what the gubmint is really hiding to control us from every angle.
QuoteFifth, We will bring forth a website where problems can be brought up locally and People can "vote" to bump a problem up, down, show apathy by not voting, and chime in with solutions (which can be cheered and booed). Issues will drop off after the original poster indicates that the problem has been resolved or withdrawn, or there has been no activity after, say, six months (that is not set in stone). Social responsibility will be defined as spending 15 minutes a day examining issues on this site.
Also, issues with some set number of bumps up will be considered issues that need a wider awareness and go to regional sections. From there, continental, perhaps, and then global, as more are needed to be involved in solving the problem. Problems will beget the awareness to solve them.
Without money as a motive, problems will be solved more creatively, directly, harmoniously, and within the three Laws.
The people's court..cut and dry!
QuoteSixth, We are staunch in our support of an organic planet. Though hybridization is an awesome tool, genetically modifying organisms is NOT. Without money, there is no motivation to create GMO. We know that organics can produce on par or better yield and better nutrition than their petrochemically "fertilized" brethren. Any non-organic approaches to problems will be highly discouraged, unless it is seen that such a solution is the best.
Beyond this, sustainability is Our goal.
Without profit as a goal, GMO and other similar likenesses of corporate folly will fall by the wayside!
QuoteSeventh, We see that, without money, We can build machines – robots – to do all necessary work. Without work as an "ethic," We substitute a "Betterment Ethic," and encourage all to look for ways – within the three Laws and with organic solutions prized – to improve conditions on this planet for everyOne, and offer these ideas for consideration and possible action.
Plus, this will allow all the people who have suppressed their natural technological prowess to excercise it for the good of the common goal! No more fear of sharing technology..lets work together to improve every facet of our current tech, and find new levels of tech to aspire to!
QuoteEighth, We understand that virtually all crime is, on one level or another, related to money, and without money as motive, virtually all crime will vanish – leaving the very few, passion-related crimes for Us to deal with. We will deal with all crime publicly, and Those who care can and will decide each case. Most such choice of behavior will lead to social pariah-hood for the perpetrators.
We should reserve the right to separate those who perpetrate such crimes to a place on Earth where they can be rehabilitated away from the society which doesnt need their help, until they are ready to return, or just cant.The forum justice ideal will be difficult at first to employ, but it will eventually be the way to go, as to eliminate all forms of judgment by one judge..and allow the masses to decide on the fate of the single criminal.
QuoteNinth, We support open source in all things We program. This allows for many to make suggestions for betterment, and ensures that no one will create outside the three Laws. It also eliminates "back doors," and other surreptitious software segments that bog down the clean functioning of the program. Without money as a motive, programmers will be proud to offer Their work for scrutinization and use, openly and freely. Status will be gained for creating the best programs.
I was honored the other day when I noticed Luke had added me to his signature, for my statement about free energy for all..I truly agree wholeheartedly here! Sharing is imperative and hiding progress must be reduced or even eliminated..we all deserve to benefit from these advances, especially since there will be no need for profit!
QuoteTenth, We understand that food waste is rampant with food distributed by profit, abundant as it is but poorly and/or untimely delivered. Without money, food distribution will be based on need and not profit, ensuring that waste is minimal, food is fresh for all (no One waiting for the wilted cast-offs), and readily available.
There is a cover up by the giant food conglomerates where they dont allow us to enjoy the fruits of our own areas we live in, and they ship in everything we eat..we must adopt a 100 mile food economy at all costs.
QuoteThough these approaches are revolutionary, We understand that if enough People are on board, a fresh, free, fun, and fulfilling life will be Ours – and everyone else's – as We choose. No One needs to change anything except where there is a problem – and then Those who care are free to solve it within the three Laws.
I want to go fishing, and share my catch with the village, like in the old days!LOL!
QuoteWithout money, bureaucracy will become unnecessary, vastly reducing paper use, and streamlining solutions. Jobs in banking, insurance, and other such money-related industries will disappear, and in their place, the opportunity to spend time as One wishes.
Everyone must be a member of the governing body..with an equal vote, and equal ability to challenge poor efforts or selfish activism by the common populace.
QuoteTransportation will be free – for Ourselves, Our food and product systems, and any other transportation needs. This offers the ability to go where One wishes, moving food to where it is needed, and other freedom We presently do not have, with transportation energy costing so much.
And, with a 100 mile economy, transportation will be mainly for recreation only..no polluting trucks, or work vehicles! Just big shiny cruiseships full of happy people!
QuoteWe are a planetary party and decry any solutions that maintain a "divide and conquer" attitude or outcome, including stateism, nationalism, partyism, teamism, etc. We are one species on one planet, and we seek to benefit the planet ethically and wholly.
To join, merely state that You are a member. All that is required, as a Party member, is to inform Others about the Ethical Planetarian Party – send this link, or copy and paste to email this content.
________________________
I am a member and shall share this post with everyone I come into contact with!
How great of an idea..lets hope others listen and dont go off the cliff with the lemmings who lead us nowadays!
Cheers, Amy..great post!!!!
Dave
EDIT by Amaterasu to fix tags so quoting works..
Quote from: Fruitbat on October 18, 2012, 10:54:28 PM
All good Ideas, Amaterasu but in order to succed we have to do a hell of a lot of work.
Invent free energy and create a system where everyone gets a vote via the internet being just two of the requirements.
I'm wondering if we are actually going to get much longer to work on it.
FB!
FE is already invented... We need to get the ideas to the tipping point, showing the toadies that hold the secrets for the "elite" that They would be better off in The Abundance Paradigm, and the info WILL come out.
The site can easily be open-souce programmed by Those that programmed PRC or ATS or [fill in the blank]. We don't really have to worry about the idea of "one vote, one Person," merely because what one Person can to to sway things in Their own favor is quite small, and there will be little motive for many to band together to force resolution of any issue - that is an emergence from a money/scarcity system. Have You read My piece, Stigmergic Governance via the Web?
As far as time... Why do You think I am out on Twitter, emailing organizations, making comments on articles and forums, trying to bring awareness of TAP. If We reach the tipping point soon, We can just ignore the evil Ones and do what works best for Humanity.
Quote from: robomont on October 19, 2012, 12:03:05 AM
i think apathy should carry a vote too.a vote of no confidence is still a vote.and all votes should come with none of the above.
this way the world works more harmoniusly tho be it slower.
Apathy is shown by not voting. Why have to mess with it if Ya don't care? The "none of the above" is not applicable... Have You read My piece, Stigmergic Governance Via The Web?
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/forum/index.php?topic=2103.0
Quote from: Littleenki on October 19, 2012, 01:17:35 AM
Exactly, and a general push towards non animal, or non-mammal based food supplies, as to balance the human body and eliminate the meat based issues with our health..we all started out as vegetarians and meat just became a way of feeding when we observed animals eating each other..and adopted the same behaviour patterns.
I know that to bring many into alignment I could not attack eating flesh. Indeed, it should be discouraged, but as long as the animals are well treated in life and given clean death, I cannot object.
QuoteI like this as number one..but two will do!;)
I put the Laws first, as I think the Laws are at the very foundation.
Quotein a word..tolerance...without prejudice and forcefulness of doctrines upon the fellow man.
Exactly. And in abundance, with no money, We will see a sort of social "superconductance" as People spend time only with Those They like...
QuoteWithout profit as a goal, GMO and other similar likenesses of corporate folly will fall by the wayside!
Precisely. GMO is for profit and control purposes. With no power over Others, no One can create the massive-scale hell We see today - and there is really no motive to try.
QuotePlus, this will allow all the people who have suppressed their natural technological prowess to excercise it for the good of the common goal! No more fear of sharing technology..lets work together to improve every facet of our current tech, and find new levels of tech to aspire to!
Yes. Exactly. We can all follow Our bliss within the three Laws - and rather than give up Our bliss to train for a career, We can develop Our interests as far as we wish to do so. Science and art will burgeon!
QuoteWe should reserve the right to separate those who perpetrate such crimes to a place on Earth where they can be rehabilitated away from the society which doesnt need their help, until they are ready to return, or just cant.The forum justice ideal will be difficult at first to employ, but it will eventually be the way to go, as to eliminate all forms of judgment by one judge..and allow the masses to decide on the fate of the single criminal.
Oh, absolutely! IF One breaks any of the Laws, One can be removed from social interaction. Confined to a palace They can't leave... We can determine, based on the crime, how long that will be. But We will see less and less of any issues, as more and more is available to Us.
Via the web, We can see evidence presented, honest evidence and all evidence permissible. We can rule via vote. No bought off judges or intimidated jurors... Justice as cleanly decided as possible.
QuoteI was honored the other day when I noticed Luke had added me to his signature, for my statement about free energy for all..I truly agree wholeheartedly here! Sharing is imperative and hiding progress must be reduced or even eliminated..we all deserve to benefit from these advances, especially since there will be no need for profit!
ALL public works should be open source. All progress should be available. No motive to hide it, and lots of social currency if One offers a better mousetrap. People will thank One, give praise, lauds, appreciation, name recognition, and One will have Self-satisfaction!
QuoteThere is a cover up by the giant food conglomerates where they dont allow us to enjoy the fruits of our own areas we live in, and they ship in everything we eat..we must adopt a 100 mile food economy at all costs.
I disagree here. I say shopping will move to the web with robots delivering to the doorsteps. And if We want something from half the planet away, that is fine; however, it will be that the nearest supply of broccoli will be accessed for such delivery if broccoli is ordered. The issue of "buying local" will be moot.
QuoteI want to go fishing, and share my catch with the village, like in the old days!LOL!
What is more likely to happen is that You will post Your catch to the web, and the first Ones to show interest will get Your fish - via robot delivery (You request robots, they come, pack up the fish, and take it to Those who were lucky to get in on the deal). But You still have the CHOICE to give the fish to whomever you wish.
QuoteEveryone must be a member of the governing body..with an equal vote, and equal ability to challenge poor efforts or selfish activism by the common populace
Oh. Absolutely!
QuoteAnd, with a 100 mile economy, transportation will be mainly for recreation only..no polluting trucks, or work vehicles! Just big shiny cruiseships full of happy people!
Again, no limits. And transportation will be fully NON-polluting. FE is not polluting by and large - and We won't use any that is.
QuoteI am a member and shall share this post with everyone I come into contact with!
WOOT!
i think i got the free energy part done but i need some one to build it.
Awesome! Wish I could help! Jobless, not quite homeless, but surely penniless, I.
Alright, gang. AnyOne want to help?
to be forced to choose is no choice.i choose to smoke weed and not have it taxed.has that legal option ever been available?
add to it, most people are idiots,i dont have much faith in democracy being a good avenue for the future.anarchy is more my liking.not chaos though.
The idea will have reached tipping point the second I have an ever spinning wheel giving me 10-100 watts of useable electricity.
Because not long afterwards, I will have sold it for a few quid over cost and be busy bulding another one for someone else whilst my first purchaser reads the instructions, which will include a how to build your own if you want to section...
I'd imagine once the word got out my youtube channel would be pretty busy and my initial ebay sales would be quite strong until someone mass produces copies and undercuts me...
By then the tipping will be heading towards 45 degrees..
BUT as far as I can see WE haven't invented free energy yet, all who claim to have so far are revealed to be either fraudsters, or deluded optimists, or have yet to build a working prototype and disseminate the operating principles to the likes of me.
Cheers, FB
Quote from: robomont on October 19, 2012, 08:57:40 AM
to be forced to choose is no choice.i choose to smoke weed and not have it taxed.has that legal option ever been available?
add to it, most people are idiots,i dont have much faith in democracy being a good avenue for the future.anarchy is more my liking.not chaos though.
There are no taxes in The Abundance Paradigm (which the Ethical Planetarian party is designed to create). There are only three Laws - and smoking cannabis is not against any of them. Most People are misinformed (deliberately, I might add). And stigmergy is basically anarchy without chaos.
Quote from: Fruitbat on October 19, 2012, 12:09:09 PM
BUT as far as I can see WE haven't invented free energy yet, all who claim to have so far are revealed to be either fraudsters, or deluded optimists, or have yet to build a working prototype and disseminate the operating principles to the likes of me.
There are many stories of successes, working prototypes, and such where the patents have been bought and buried, where the inventor has been threatened (or family members), or where the inventor was killed...
I personally know someOne who worked as a "roadie" for an inventor who invented a device He was going about demonstrating to try and get investments. My friend would set it up and take it down. My friend said it worked and that the inventor indeed invented it Himself.
One day the FBI shows up and confiscates everything, arresting the inventor...for patent infringement! Was convicted and, to My knowledge, is still in jail.
So... If there is a patent for the invention creating free energy... Where TF is it???
Yeah. They have LOTS of stuff hidden!
The biggest flaw in this is to try to separate politics from sociological agendas. It is not possible.
Most of the above aims are political.
QuoteDEFINITION: political adjective
of or relating to the government or public affairs of a country: a period of political and economic stability
relating to the ideas or strategies of a particular party or group in politics: a decision taken for purely political reasons
interested in or active in politics: I'm not very political
motivated by a person's beliefs or actions concerning politics: a political crime
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/political
The aims above
relat(e) to the government or public affairs of a country or the planet generally. That makes them political.
To implement the changes or change THE LAW requires having the power to do so. That makes it political in a very real sense. Do you think those in power will stop engaging in politics because you ask them nicely to step aside?
Change will come by forcing the people in power to change because it will not be politically expedient to do anything else. That involves being the opposite of politically naive.
Yes, it will not involve behaving in the obscenely distasteful was the majority of
successful politicians do. However, even removing the current banking system is a highly political act and will only be done with a new type of politics.
There is a reason that the 60s never gave us the world it hoped to. That was due to not engaging in a politically effective way and never having any real power.
Quote from: Pimander on October 19, 2012, 05:32:15 PM
To implement the changes or change THE LAW requires having the power to do so. That makes it political in a very real sense. Do you think those in power will stop engaging in politics because you ask them nicely to step aside?
Who's gonna ask? If They are ignored, and We go about implementing ideas...what are They gonna do?
QuoteChange will come by forcing the people in power to change because it will not be politically expedient to do anything else. That involves being the opposite of politically naive.
Or... Ignoring Them and doing what WE want...
QuoteYes, it will not involve behaving in the obscenely distasteful was the majority of successful politicians do. However, even removing the current banking system is a highly political act and will only be done with a new type of politics.
Like spreading awareness to the tipping point such that We just do it.
QuoteThere is a reason that the 60s never gave us the world it hoped to. That was due to not engaging in a politically effective way and never having any real power.
And also not having a clearly defined path to progress on. My work has been to provide precisely that.
Back to this...
Quote from: Littleenki on October 19, 2012, 01:17:35 AM
Exactly, and a general push towards non animal, or non-mammal based food supplies, as to balance the human body and eliminate the meat based issues with our health..we all started out as vegetarians and meat just became a way of feeding when we observed animals eating each other..and adopted the same behaviour patterns.
I found an interesting YT piece:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2nD3iAdg-8
Thats a great video, Amy! I remember when I first joined here touting the great meat I get from the farm in Arcadia near me...those ribeyes are soooo good!
Luckily Publix sells greenwise beef now for a pretty good price so I can get it on sale for 8-10 bucks a pound.
Im not rich, but if Im going to buy a steak or two, its not going to be any less than the good stuff!
Be well!
Dave
Quote from: Amaterasu on October 19, 2012, 10:56:35 PM
Or... Ignoring Them and doing what WE want...
Unfortunately, you can only ignore the law to an extent. I am in favour of civil disobedience when undertaken on moral grounds. However, the law is a useful thing in many ways.
For example in the UK we have a free health service paid for by taxes. The law is part of that. So are laws preventing folks from adding dodgy stuff to our food etc. There are also laws PROTECTING citizens from those in power. Lawlessness serves the powerful better than the poor.
Quote from: Amaterasu on October 19, 2012, 10:56:35 PM
Like spreading awareness to the tipping point such that We just do it.
Yes, that is why I am helping to run a site like this. It is to TRY to spread awareness. But there is a need for more than awareness even though awareness is an important step in the right direction.
Quote from: Amaterasu on October 19, 2012, 10:56:35 PMAnd also not having a clearly defined path to progress on. My work has been to provide precisely that.
Part of that path has to be the ability to make laws in line with our aims. It is politicians that make the laws.
We need to promote REAL DEMOCRACY and use it to our advantage by making laws. The population of Earth is far too large for a society based on political anarchy. In a post apocalyptic world that might be different but you cannot at this point change the system based on no laws without widespread famine....
Quote from: Pimander on October 20, 2012, 06:29:17 PM
Unfortunately, you can only ignore the law to an extent. I am in favour of civil disobedience when undertaken on moral grounds. However, the law is a useful thing in many ways.
Who said anything about "the law?" I said ignore "Them," the "ELITE." We will not ignore just "laws." But We will ignore the orders of the "elite."
QuoteYes, that is why I am helping to run a site like this. It is to TRY to spread awareness. But there is a need for more than awareness even though awareness is an important step in the right direction.
It is the very FIRST step.
QuotePart of that path has to be the ability to make laws in line with our aims. It is politicians that make the laws.
Not really. Making "laws" is a waste of energy and is a prolonged process. Spread the best IDEAS and People will form around them and move them forward. Virtually all of Our "laws" are created with money as motive...or to block money motive... Once money is no longer powerful, Humans will choose Their restrictions more wisely.
QuoteWe need to promote REAL DEMOCRACY and use it to our advantage by making laws. The population of Earth is far too large for a society based on political anarchy. In a post apocalyptic world that might be different but you cannot at this point change the system based on no laws without widespread famine....
Stigmergic governance via the web is about as pure a democracy as One can get. Why do We need more "laws" in a moneyless society? What "laws" are You thinking of? How do You figure "The population of Earth is far too large for a society based on political anarchy?" And how do You figure "you cannot at this point change the system based on no laws without widespread famine?"
I see that Humans will, if all given the opportunity for a lifestyle of today's "elite," will function quite fine within the three Laws. It is class, and money, and oppression that engender the need to "laws."
[/quote]
Governance via the web is a pipe dream for a long time. Large proportions of the worlds population do not even have running water let alone internet access.
First you need awareness and THE MEANS to be energy independent. But in the transition, to anything resembling an era of abundance for most, you have to be able to engage politically to run things and make the technology and knowledge available to the millions of people currently out of reach. Awareness is beyond most of the millions of people in Europe, Japan and North America yet.
I think your aims are commendable. Your methods of achieving it are destined to fail. Humanity will wipe itself out long before it happens unless we start to change laws in a democratic and progressive way. A cabal in control of armies, jails, FEMA camps, water supplies, factories that make PCs, the internet itself, nuclear weapons and more will not let go of power because some of the population ignore them. To avoid an apocalyptic scenario you have to have a political arm.
I'm with you all the way on making people aware. However, I am completely against your notion that it would be a bad thing to have political clout. It is a naive and dangerous position.
Amnesty international and CND are examples of organisations without a true political arm. Have they achieved their aims? No they have not!
In the 60s, you guys did have a clear path. It was universal love, spreading the word and civil disobedience. You ignored politics. It failed. The cabal have been in power for a long time for a reason.
Those who do not learn the lessons of history are condemned to repeat it.
Quote from: Pimander on October 20, 2012, 08:10:10 PM
The cabal have been in power for a long time for a reason.
Yep; and that reason has been that 90% of the population have
wanted to be their bitch. Hitler openly stated in Mein Kampf, that in order to get into power, he didn't create anything that wasn't there already. Literally the only thing he was doing, was taking advantage of base/negative elements within human nature, that existed anyway.
I am no longer really emotionally invested in this outcome, but I will say that if there are any people out there who want a more positive scenario than what the cabal will give them, then the most important thing to do to start, is realise that the only reason why the cabal are in power at all, is because that's what the majority WANT.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/55/RWS_Tarot_15_Devil.jpg/220px-RWS_Tarot_15_Devil.jpg)
Have a look at this card. The man and woman in this picture are not truly confined. The chains looped over their necks are loose enough to be taken off, and their hands and feet are not bound at all. In other words, they could free themselves at any time, but they CHOOSE not to do so. Replace the Devil on that card with the eye in the capstone, and you've got the scenario that has existed up to this point.
This is the main thing to understand; it is crucial. The past scenario that most of you have known about, has existed because enough people have WANTED it. The Georgia Guidestones scenario is going to end up existing for some people, because they WANT it. TAP will exist for some, because they WANT it; and so on. If the majority WANTED the Venus Project, then they would literally move heaven and Earth to make it happen. Zorgon has told me that millions of people would literally be willing to kill in defense of Capitalism, and indeed, millions of people already have.
That is the sole reason why any situation exists; because someone wants it. We don't think it, but choice is ALWAYS honoured by the system. If you are where you are, it's because on some level, even if it's one you don't know about, you want to be there; because if you didn't, you'd be somewhere else.
Quote from: Pimander on October 20, 2012, 08:10:10 PM
Governance via the web is a pipe dream for a long time. Large proportions of the worlds population do not even have running water let alone internet access.
And You think We cannot change that with free energy and a desire to change that?
QuoteFirst you need awareness and THE MEANS to be energy independent. But in the transition, to anything resembling an era of abundance for most, you have to be able to engage politically to run things and make the technology and knowledge available to the millions of people currently out of reach. Awareness is beyond most of the millions of people in Europe, Japan and North America yet.
You provide it initially where You can and leverage the result into more spread...
QuoteI think your aims are commendable. Your methods of achieving it are destined to fail. Humanity will wipe itself out long before it happens unless we start to change laws in a democratic and progressive way. A cabal in control of armies, jails, FEMA camps, water supplies, factories that make PCs, the internet itself, nuclear weapons and more will not let go of power because some of the population ignore them. To avoid an apocalyptic scenario you have to have a political arm.
And "laws" are keeping Them at bay? No, "laws" are not the answer. THEY will ignore US. You think movements are powerless, then?
QuoteI'm with you all the way on making people aware. However, I am completely against your notion that it would be a bad thing to have political clout. It is a naive and dangerous position.
Where did I say it would be a "bad thing?!?" I'm saying the clout will emerge with the awareness. Once the tipping point is reached, the clout will be complete.
QuoteAmnesty international and CND are examples of organisations without a true political arm. Have they achieved their aims? No they have not!
I suspect They are gatekeeper organizations... Make it LOOK like something is being worked on. And if They weren't initially, They have been infiltrated and taken over...
QuoteIn the 60s, you guys did have a clear path. It was universal love, spreading the word and civil disobedience. You ignored politics. It failed. The cabal have been in power for a long time for a reason.
No... That is not a clear path. That is just moving away from, not towards anything specific.
QuoteThose who do not learn the lessons of history are condemned to repeat it.
Agreed. Point being?
Quote from: Amaterasu on October 20, 2012, 08:56:30 PM
No... That is not a clear path. That is just moving away from, not towards anything specific.
The 60s also weren't actually as much of a failure as people think, in that sense. That period was about establishing initial context. You can't go from a scenario that consists purely of things people know about, to something else which is radically and systemically different, overnight. We have a scenario now (moreso in some parts of the world than others, admittedly, which is part of the reason why I'm going back to Nimbin) where people have had at least some exposure to certain ideas, whereas before probably 1967, nobody really did.
Yes, it could have gone further than it did, if more within the population had wanted it to, and if certain individuals had not been shot by certain other individuals, which probably had the effect of intimidating large numbers of others who wanted things to move forward more. I am not in denial about any of that.
It keeps coming back to a scenario where people WANT to relinquish their own sovereignty to someone else, who they think will take care of them, and make better decisions for them, than they think they're capable of making by themselves. Not only do the cabal take advantage of that mentality in pre-existing terms, but they also actively encourage it to perpetuate as much as they can. They do not want a society of adults; because if they get that, their game is over. They only rule to the extent that they do, because most people do not want to wipe their own backsides, developmentally speaking.
Quote from: Pimander on October 20, 2012, 08:10:10 PM
In the 60s, you guys did have a clear path. It was universal love, spreading the word and civil disobedience.
As another point on this score, the concept of civil disobedience didn't go anywhere near far enough.
Civil disobedience in Gandhi or MLK's sense of the term, basically consisted purely of refusing to co-operate with the system as it currently existed. The problem with that, was that at the same time, there wasn't much real talk (or thought, for that matter) about truly concrete plans for alternative institutions. It's exactly like Occupy now; who are basically useless, because while they scream loudly at the corporate world about what victims they view themselves as being, any remote suggestion that they give up their mobile phones and try and develop a non-corporate form of telecommunications, will simply get you laughed at.
That was actually done in Egypt for a very brief period during the Mubarak incident, but was predictably abandoned again as soon as the mobile phone towers were turned back on again.
Very few people who involve themselves in any form of protest or civil disobedience, truly want the sort of change which would involve them becoming genuinely sovereign. Usually what motivates them to protest, is a scenario where the actions of government and corporations are hurting them, but what they really want, is simply a removal of the specific behaviour which causes said pain, at which point they will very gladly resume being a willing part of the system.
They do not want a genuinely new scenario, because they still do not believe, fundamentally, that they have the ability to make beneficial decisions for themselves. They simply want a scenario where they can trust government and corporations to truly protect their interests, so they can go back to sleep. What they don't understand is that that will never happen, because the interests of government and corporations have very little in common with those of the general population.
Quote from: petrus4 on October 20, 2012, 08:49:18 PM
I am no longer really emotionally invested in this outcome, but I will say that if there are any people out there who want a more positive scenario than what the cabal will give them, then the most important thing to do to start, is realise that the only reason why the cabal are in power at all, is because that's what the majority WANT.
And when the majority do not you are in a position to change things democratically. To politically disengage is foolish and delays the transition.
Quote from: Amaterasu on October 20, 2012, 08:56:30 PM
And "laws" are keeping Them at bay? No, "laws" are not the answer. THEY will ignore US. You think movements are powerless, then?
No, I think that in the transition period apolitical movements are not powerful enough to usher in an era of abundance. That is the lesson I have learned for Amnesty, Greenpeace, CND and the sixties flower power movement generally. Noble aims but politically naive. I think that I have already made myself clear.
On the other hand, the right kind of political movement is the only one that will stop either a disaster or the cabal clinging to power for a lot longer. Unfortunately,you will be long dead before things move far unless a movement with the political nous and right principles to implement some of your ideas comes along.
Quote from: Amaterasu on October 20, 2012, 08:56:30 PMI suspect They are gatekeeper organizations [CND and Amnesty International]... Make it LOOK like something is being worked on. And if They weren't initially, They have been infiltrated and taken over...
They are abject failures. That is the lesson to take.
Quote from: Amaterasu on October 20, 2012, 08:56:30 PM
Those who do not learn the lessons of history are condemned to repeat it.
Agreed. Point being?
That I am convinced that you have not learned said lessons.
I hope I am wrong and you live to see your dream. I suspect without a political force to assist in the transition, that it is a long way off.
Quote from: petrus4 on October 20, 2012, 09:17:01 PM
The 60s also weren't actually as much of a failure as people think, in that sense. That period was about establishing initial context. You can't go from a scenario that consists purely of things people know about, to something else which is radically and systemically different, overnight. We have a scenario now (moreso in some parts of the world than others, admittedly, which is part of the reason why I'm going back to Nimbin) where people have had at least some exposure to certain ideas, whereas before probably 1967, nobody really did.
Agreed.
QuoteIt keeps coming back to a scenario where people WANT to relinquish their own sovereignty to someone else, who they think will take care of them, and make better decisions for them, than they think they're capable of making by themselves. Not only do the cabal take advantage of that mentality in pre-existing terms, but they also actively encourage it to perpetuate as much as they can. They do not want a society of adults; because if they get that, their game is over. They only rule to the extent that they do, because most people do not want to wipe their own backsides, developmentally speaking.
And I say People are led to wanting to relinquish Their sovereignty in a world where They are dependent on money, cajoled to accept it by the money-holders. If They have no other ways of obtaining what They need and want, They will fall into line. And to be sure, there will be communities in TAP that grow around ideas and leaders - but no One will be forced to join, forced to work, forced to do anything that is not contributing to Their bliss.
TAP has the advantage in that One can do and believe as One pleases within three Laws... The only "losers" are Those presently holding power over Others through money.
Con is the ooposite of pro. Congress is the opposite of progress.
Shasta
Quote from: Pimander on October 20, 2012, 11:09:12 PM
No, I think that in the transition period apolitical movements are not powerful enough to usher in an era of abundance. That is the lesson I have learned for Amnesty, Greenpeace, CND and the sixties flower power movement generally. Noble aims but politically naive. I think that I have already made myself clear.
Their movements did not benefit all the 99% of Us. There was lots of disagreement. TAP offers advantage to ALL the 99%. Only the 1% "lose" and all They lose is the power over Others. I say that few will have argument...
QuoteOn the other hand, the right kind of political movement is the only one that will stop either a disaster or the cabal clinging to power for a lot longer. Unfortunately,you will be long dead before things move far unless a movement with the political nous and right principles to implement some of your ideas comes along.
I think You are failing to see that a movement of 99% of Us in that direction IS a "political" movement. It is the politics of a new paradigm.
QuoteThey are abject failures. That is the lesson to take.
That I am convinced that you have not learned said lessons.
And I am convinced that You don't see that there is a vast difference between these movements in a scarcity paradigm, where a number of People feel threatened through money issues mainly, and The Abundance Paradigm, which threatens only power over Others but does not take away materially - and in fact provides vastly more for most.
QuoteI hope I am wrong and you live to see your dream. I suspect without a political force to assist in the transition, that it is a long way off.
Once the tipping point has been reached, the force will be - or really will transcend - politics. And it is only as far away as We choose not to spread it.
Quote from: Pimander on October 20, 2012, 11:09:12 PM
And when the majority do not you are in a position to change things democratically. To politically disengage is foolish and delays the transition.
The only problem is that trying to change the system from within, doesn't work. In the very rare case that you do start to get somewhere, you will be intercepted; and either bought off in one way or another, or otherwise destroyed if the carrot approach doesn't win you over.
The main difference between Zorgon and myself, if I am truly, brutally honest, is that as an aspiring alpha, he is actually successful. The single main reason why I have not been successful, is because of my own level of internal conflict; for the most part, I genuinely do believe it's wrong. Politics would be absolute moral suicide for me, because I
am a narcissist, I can have a temper, and I have far too much of a desire for money than I am usually comfortable with admitting, as well.
Zorgon has embraced his dark side, or at least what I would usually interpret as darkness. I, on the other hand, keep the beast caged. That is the main reason why at times he has been capable of antagonising me to the extent that he does. His own example is forcing me to confront an element of my own nature (more than one, in fact) which I am not prepared to accept.
Quote from: petrus4 on October 21, 2012, 04:05:58 PM
The only problem is that trying to change the system from within, doesn't work.
I'd agree if you mean from within one of the two parties in a two party state. But politics just isn't limited to that. It simply is not true. Also politics does not necessarily just involve changing from within. It is a political aim top change any system.
"The system" has changed in the past. Sometimes from within. If it hadn't there would not be democracy in England for a start - where democracy in its modern form began. Sometimes I think Americans can't see clearly beyond their own borders. Do you not think that politics extends beyond the tiny population of USA and your two main parties? ::)
QuoteThe Great Reform Act of 1832 started the democratisation of British government - a process which some would argue is still ongoing.
During the last 100 years Parliament has extended the vote to women and drastically curbed the powers of the unelected House of Lords and passed some of its own sovereignty over to Europe.
But the process of Parliamentary change is still ongoing with devolution, the further reform of the House of Lords and perhaps reform of the electoral system itself all sure to make their presence felt in the years to come
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/96021.stm
Quote from: petrus4 on October 21, 2012, 04:05:58 PM
In the very rare case that you do start to get somewhere, you will be intercepted; and either bought off in one way or another, or otherwise destroyed if the carrot approach doesn't win you over.
If that were true there would still be slavery i many countries where it was banned. Women would not be allowed to vote in many states too.
Quote from: petrus4 on October 21, 2012, 04:05:58 PM
Politics would be absolute moral suicide for me,
Perhaps for you. That does not mean that all political change is a bad thing.
Mark my words. Without a political move, the abundance paradigm is a pipe dream - probably for hundreds of years if not beyond an apocalypse.
Quote from: Pimander on October 22, 2012, 02:51:43 PM
Mark my words. Without a political move, the abundance paradigm is a pipe dream - probably for hundreds of years if not beyond an apocalypse.
The cabal have got the priorities of the majority completely sewn up at this point, Pimander. You would have seen what Zorgon has written; millions of people would be willing to kill or die to defend the current system, irrespective of how detrimental it is to them.
I can only accomplish anything with people who already understand. Amaterasu might consider herself a missionary, but I am not. It doesn't work. If it means we have to wait centuries, then perhaps we do; but the reality is that most people simply do not want what we are offering. They have been taught not to want it. They have been taught that it cannot work to such a degree, that they are not prepared to try.
I am not a "missionary," Petrus. I am a teacher. I am here to teach People a better way, a new paradigm. I offer My work and discuss it. Some few "get it," and help the teaching efforts.
The more who teach, the closer We are to the tipping point. The closer We are to unlearning the tripe of the scarcity paradigm controllers.
Quote from: petrus4 on October 22, 2012, 03:28:18 PM
but the reality is that most people simply do not want what we are offering.
But that is the main flaw in what you offer. The whole premise of your argument is that in the new paradigm people will be able to do what they want... yet what I am seeing in your arguments it only works if what people want is what you WANT them to want.
For this 'tipping point' to occur millions of minds would have to all think alike, yet even you and Amy have differences in opinion on how this can work
The Law of Attraction does work... but currently in our development we do not have the strength of mind to make that mountain Jesus told us about move from hither to yon, nor can anyone I know lift Luke's spaceship out of the mud. And I come from the mystery schools that teach this possibility.
You take a town of 100 people... 50 want it to rain today and 50 do not... so what happens, does it rain or not? Well ONE person in that 100 might have the presence of mind enough to actually influence the weather because that one person has the discipline and the firm belief that they CAN make it rain...
So even if 50 people are haphazardly wish for sunshine, that one mind can make it rain
However, on something the scale of TAP, you will need a LOT of minds with a single clear focus and a firm belief that they can make it happen
Now evil men have know this for millenia. They can, by convincing people that they are the next thing to God, use the energy of that group for their own ends. Hitler was a prime recent example... but in the end even his control was lost as people's opinions changed
He too promised a golden age of plenty... and it wasn't based on lies. That is why he became so popular so fast. But as he gained the power, so came the corruption and the rest, as they say, is History.
Cult leaders... same thing. By their charisma alone they get people to follow their dream, their goal. They even make them give up money and possessions to be allowed the privilege of joining. Well maybe those Heaven's Gate people really did materialize that spaceship :D
QuoteThey have been taught not to want it. They have been taught that it cannot work to such a degree, that they are not prepared to try.
So you would teach them your way, despite the fact that they may not want your way. So you justify yourself by saying they are wrong, they have been taught wrong and whatever. Your plan has three laws of compliance or they will be removed (as i understand it)
Kinda sounds like "My way or the highway"
Perhaps people might be persuaded to try it, if it can be shown that it is actually viable. I have seen Amy's sketch of an EG device. Well that box with a shaft and a propeller is as useless as a kid scribbling on a wall. There is nothing in that that shows a plausible working device that can be reproduced Just as shown there is not even a clear driving force. You can't just toss in something like that and say "See? here is the device that will make all this happen" and show something like that device that has no indication of what it does, or how it works.
I believe and support the Law of Attraction, but you cannot just materialize a working EG device out of thin air, especially when you only have vague ideas how it even works or how it can be connected to our system
And to build a new infra structure requires TONS of money, many manufacturers to give up time to make these new devices that everyone will get to use for free. Now I can envision a rich eccentric billionaire being so magnanimous to give all that away free... but he would still need a working model to mass produce.
Quote from: petrus4 on October 22, 2012, 03:28:18 PM
I can only accomplish anything with people who already understand.
And of those people that already understand that you speak of, how many of those are in a position to actively do something about it? I mean beyond believing or wishing for it?
QuoteAmaterasu might consider herself a missionary, but I am not. It doesn't work.
Missionaries work to a point. The Jesuits converted a LOT of people over the centuries... (mostly with fear and brute force :P) Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons still send missionaries to my door. But Missionaries don't work very well on free thinkers :D And this board has a lot of those
Quote from: Pimander on October 22, 2012, 02:51:43 PM
Sometimes I think Americans can't see clearly beyond their own borders. Do you not think that politics extends beyond the tiny population of USA and your two main parties? ::)
Well yeah but those areas outside our borders are the provinces :P I seem to recall before America broke away from you Tea Tottlers that you once thought that way... that Britain was the only civilized nation in the world :P something about that word 'EMPIRE" :D
QuoteIf that were true there would still be slavery i many countries where it was banned. Women would not be allowed to vote in many states too.
Slavery is bad? Oh :P
QuoteMark my words. Without a political move, the abundance paradigm is a pipe dream - probably for hundreds of years if not beyond an apocalypse.
Well one thing is certain, while we debate the issue of cheap or free energy, the military industrialist are going full speed ahead using solar energy,synthetic fuel and oil and fusion power. :P So while we suffer THEY are making it happen for their own uses... and I see not one EG device being used by them to generate the AWESOME power that they produce. Easily enough to power the planet several times over
Quote from: zorgon on November 11, 2012, 01:38:22 AM
And of those people that already understand that you speak of, how many of those are in a position to actively do something about it? I mean beyond believing or wishing for it?
Every single One who "gets it," z, is in a position to do something about it. Since the first step is spreading awareness to the tipping point, all They have to do is spread the ideas, keeping it in Consciousness. They can take it on as a goal, to be proactive in seeing that within Their life time and for the benefit of every Human that comes after.
I sometimes sit aghast that People do not grasp what casting off servitude to the system and in favor of everybody - service to Self and service to Others in singularity - will allow to emerge. The significance of these two factors, free energy and robots, in Human society so amazingly escapes so many. So stuck in the scarcity paradigm.
Economists like Jeremy Rifkin can assure Us that all money is is an energy accounting device. Add free energy and the need for money vanishes.
QuoteMissionaries work to a point. The Jesuits converted a LOT of people over the centuries... (mostly with fear and brute force :P) Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons still send missionaries to my door. But Missionaries don't work very well on free thinkers :D And this board has a lot of those
[sigh] The biggest difference between Me and a missionary is that missionaries preach believing in something out of faith. I say look at communities of rich People - the Hamptons...or Martha's Wine Grape Field. Replace the servants with robots, and ask Yourself, Gee. Could We all live like that? I say, look at the economic fact that money=power over Others=energy. Look at the state of development the public sector is at in robotics - and imagine what We have in black projects. I can point to the fact that Humans, in the history We have, have never had either available, openly or occultly, until the last few seconds of that history, these two resources.
So what do Humans in the Hamptons do? They organize things. From luncheons to awards shows to birthday parties to... Gee. Could We all live like that? Going out into the world and organizing things: A tennis tournament, a Magic: the Gathering tournament, a picnic for all the buds that go fishing together, a research team, engineers with inventors to build things. Projects emerging, with the dedicated and willing behind them, out of the problems on the central web site that need solving.
Gee. Could We all live like that? Or do We want to put Our energy into the system that lets Them live like that? If We can all live like that, why is it Our duty to "earn" it?
Gee. Could We all live like that?
i don't want to live like that
and i don't want any robots messin in my home or life
i get it but don't like or agree with it ..
so i won't be keeping it alive
perhaps there are more like me who have their own ideas
it's nice to have your own idea...isn't it
respectfully not participating in your dream
I think that robots could have a place in our lives. I'm quite happy to have a washing machine rather than a washboard, I like having a diswasher, but to replace people in service positions with robots? No thank you. I have no desire to live like the people in the Hamptons. I would be bored out of what's left of my mind. I do admit that I'm basing my opinion of life in the Hamptons on the television series Revenge, but I've met people who have had everything pretty much given to them. They don't seem all that happy and fulfilled. If I'm misinterpreting TAP, I apologize. I understand that you see it as a wonderful and lofty goal Amy, but a lot of people need to be needed. If you haven't read The Machine Stops, by E. M. Forster, I think you should. It provides a good look at a world where every need is met by machines, until the machine stops. I agree that taking the profit out of war is a good idea. I don't happen to have a good idea how to make that happen though. Western civilization is built on war. The economy is bad and the menfolk are driving the womenfolk buggy? Have a war! Get the menfolk out from underfoot for a while. Personally, I think that's a lousy solution, but historicalky, that's how it's done.
Respectfully,
Shasta
Quote from: sky otter on November 11, 2012, 04:36:01 AM
Gee. Could We all live like that?
i don't want to live like that
and i don't want any robots messin in my home or life
It is important to understand that when most people think of robots, they think of one of two things:-
a} Cybernetic Revolt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetic_revolt), a la the Terminator and the majority of depictions of robots in popular culture. The word "robot," as originally coined, referred to a humanoid machine, as documented here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.U.R._%28Rossum%27s_Universal_Robots%29).
b} Humanoid/cyborg perversions which are the domain of transhumanists, and which I do not condone.
I advocate the use of robotics, (or perhaps more desirably in order to get away from humanoid connotations)
machine automation with the following three restrictions, which I would like to see passed into law as capital crimes, as a means of preventing repeat offense in the only manner which is 100% certain.
a} The development or construction of humanoid robots is recognised as an unethical, pathological obscenity, which potentially poses severe risks to long term human survival. I believe that the construction or design of humanoid robots should be an extremely serious crime, and that individuals who attempt to do such research, should be eligible for capital punishment.
b} The development of devices which involve invasive and/or irremovable cybernetic (machine/human interface) technology should be permanently and universally banned, and any individual found to engage in such research should again be eligible for capital punishment, due to posing an unacceptable degree of risk to the rest of humanity as a species. In my opinion, rather than being a philosophy, transhumanism is a mental illness, (deriving from an almost completely deluded view of reality; namely, pre-quantum Cartesian materialism) and a potentially lethal one.
c} Any attempt to develop generalised machine intelligence, whether acorporeal, mechanical, or biological, with the capacity to surpass human intelligence, should, as with the other two, be viewed as a potentially lethal threat to long term human survival, and be dealt with accordingly.
I consider acceptable forms of robots, to be strictly and exclusively non-humanoid machines, which are built for the automation of specific tasks, and do not have the required intelligence to be capable of anything other than said tasks. I fuily recognise the potential danger of robotics as a branch of science; and while I advocate it within the stated criteria here, I do not advocate it under any other than extremely controlled circumstances.
Given that you use a computer, sky otter, you likely already make use of the majority of forms of machine automation which I would condone, albeit usually in acorporeal (pure software) form. As a result of the negative connotations described above, I actually prefer to avoid use of the words, "robot," and most especially "android," and instead simply speak of "machines," defined specifically as being non-humanoid, and having non-generalised intelligence which is related exclusively to their specialised tasks. Car (and many other) manufacturing plants already make use of safe devices, which, strictly speaking, are
Computer Numerical Control (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerical_control) machines.
These are devices which automate the performance of rote, repetitive tasks which do not require high levels of intelligence, and as such, are generally extremely tedious for humans to perform. They can also be used to enter hazardous environments such as in the case of the Mars Rover, or the automated submersibles which were sent to the Titanic wreck site or the Sigsbee Deep oceanic zone, which humans may want to explore, but are too dangerous or otherwise impractical for us to do so.
Quote from: Amaterasu on November 11, 2012, 02:18:34 AM
So what do Humans in the Hamptons do? They organize things. From luncheons to awards shows to birthday parties to... Gee. Could We all live like that?
Hell NO!!! I have been with people like that boring and phony as hell. I couldn't live like that and I think that anyone who thinks they can has RPE (Rich Person Envy} :P
Going out into the world and organizing things: A tennis tournament, a Magic: the Gathering tournament, a picnic for all the buds that go fishing together, a research team, engineers with inventors to build things. Projects emerging, with the dedicated and willing behind them, out of the problems on the central web site that need solving.
QuoteIf We can all live like that, why is it Our duty to "earn" it?
Its not that hard to earn it :D I simply put on a Crown and took a few loyal vassals and we stepped into their world :D The best thing was, that after hob knobbing with those I got to go home :D
I put a security system into a four story house owned by a Toronto mobster and his wife... It was like working in a mausoleum. Four stories of museum quality furniture and decoration... but he was out with the boys all day till late at night and she ran her little shop... It was dead I tell ya... got an eerie feeling just being in there. You may think those living in the Hampton's have it good... trust me its not real :D
Quote from: petrus4 on November 11, 2012, 08:25:53 AM
Given that you use a computer, sky otter, you likely already make use of the majority of forms of machine automation which I would condone,
Ah yes the computer...
You know... BEFORE that evil invention took over our lives people used to actually go OUT and meet each other at a coffee shop, or go to events, or parties... Now today they are all locked in their caves playing video games, dating via yahoo and wasting their life in endless hours in silly forums
::)
Now I suppose it could be argued that 'free energy' might change that... because if I had free gas I would be out at some Medieval War instead of hanging out here :P
Nothing like sitting in my throne in front of a camp fire and watching the slave girls dancing all night :D
You guys should have all voted for me as King errmm President :P I would have fixed things :D
Quote from: petrus4 on November 11, 2012, 08:25:53 AMThey can also be used to enter hazardous environments such as in the case of the Mars Rover, or the automated submersibles which were sent to the Titanic wreck site or the Sigsbee Deep oceanic zone, which humans may want to explore, but are too dangerous or otherwise impractical for us to do so.
Screw that... send me to Mars :D I could make a fortune on just collecting a handful or two of the Blue Berries. That stupid robot is useless :P
As to deep trenches, why would a robot be allowed to take that Bliss away from someone? Today only the very rich can afford to try that... So under your system of no money, everyone could do that :D
'To hell and back': James Cameron is first solo diver to reach deepest point on Earth - but has to race back to surface after hydraulic failure seven miles downwhat a RUSH :D There is NO WAY a robot could experience that for us ;)
Sorry i'm late :-[
What a challenge!
There is a way to make it all work, yes it involves politics, we are a political animal.
Busy at the moment, but i would like to reply to every single post later today...
PWM
ah Petrus
i do have a computer..and guess what i turn it off at night ..just in case of ???????? lol
who knows what..and it faces my book shelves
the onstar in my car has been disabled..but don't squeal on me, please ;)
i do not own a cell phone..if i'm not here ..you'll hafta call back
what an inconvience for you
but freedom for me
or come on over and sit on the porch..i'm ususally here
i just haven't been trained to run to answer a divice every time it rings..lol
i do luv my wahser and dryer but don't consider them as robots
they don't think and i still work controls to make them go
..well me and the electric company
i am on here but not 24/7
i got a bargin book catalog the other day and ordered a 927 pg book
Native American Ethnobotany along with a few others on plants
and i can't wait to get it
i will sit in front of my fire with a glass of something and the critters
..the four legged ones not Z's..
well maybe z's critters too..lol
while i don't enjoy large crowds i do participate in many things
involving real live humans still
and best of all i work everyday to heal the mother earth
and find joy in this meat suit exsistence
and while i will not curb your doing whatever it is
that tickles your pickle
don't count on my joining you any time soon
the sun is shining and i am going for a walk in the woods
have a wonderous afternoon
8)
opps i meant to add that i am free from the ideas of robot revolt ..
i have seen the commercials for movies when i turn on the tube for
weather news..so i am aware of that
but i don't like movies ..sorry
..or video games..sorry or
someone else doing my thinking for me or forming an opinion for me
or telling me what's here and out there
doesn't mean i'm stupid or unaware..just that i have CHOOSEN
not to play in that bunch
wow..imagine..making my own choices..how absolutely novel
bwhahahahahahahah
Quote from: sky otter on November 11, 2012, 04:36:01 AM
Gee. Could We all live like that?
i don't want to live like that
and i don't want any robots messin in my home or life
In TAP, You don't HAVE to live in any fashion You don't want. Don't HAVE to have robots. but... You do have the CHOICE to if You want.
Quotei get it but don't like or agree with it ..
so i won't be keeping it alive
perhaps there are more like me who have their own ideas
it's nice to have your own idea...isn't it
respectfully not participating in your dream
[sigh] You clearly don't understand it. Given that it solves starvation, poverty, oppression, wage/debt slavery, having to pump Human energy into a system instead of what You want to pump energy into... I'd say it's surely a LOT better than what the world has now. It wouldn't make YOU change a thing, but it WOULD free the poor and the starving from Their fate.
I guess that is not worth the effort, though. Good on You that You have enough to eat, and screw everyOne else.
Quote from: Shasta56 on November 11, 2012, 06:24:35 AM
I think that robots could have a place in our lives. I'm quite happy to have a washing machine rather than a washboard, I like having a diswasher, but to replace people in service positions with robots? No thank you.
[shrug] If there are People who love doing the service You want, You will have no problems avoiding robots. Are You saying it's better to force People to do things They don't WANT to do so that You can deal with a Human and not a robot?
QuoteI have no desire to live like the people in the Hamptons. I would be bored out of what's left of my mind.
And in TAP, You don't HAVE to. Again, if You want to go live in a yert on the Mongolian steppes, You can. If You want to live in a small cabin in the woods, You can. If You want a house that flies, You can have it. If You want to have a ranch in Argentina, You can. If You want to stay put and change nothing, You don't have to. BUT... People who presently are living in poverty, starving, working a jobs They hate because that's all They can get, can CHOOSE to live like They do in rich neighborhoods - if They want to - without HAVING to go to a job They hate, without pumping Their energy into the system which allows only SOME of Us to live richly.
QuoteI do admit that I'm basing my opinion of life in the Hamptons on the television series Revenge, but I've met people who have had everything pretty much given to them. They don't seem all that happy and fulfilled.
Maybe because They have to deal with the issues of the imposed scarcity paradigm...
QuoteIf I'm misinterpreting TAP, I apologize. I understand that you see it as a wonderful and lofty goal Amy, but a lot of people need to be needed.
And They have the option of offering Their services. In TAP, We can choose where We spend Our energy; not forced to pump it into where We couldn't care less but for a paycheck.
QuoteIf you haven't read The Machine Stops, by E. M. Forster, I think you should. It provides a good look at a world where every need is met by machines, until the machine stops.
And does there exist machine-repairing robots? Does it include all the Humans whose bliss it is to tinker with and fix machines? Just because We add machines to do the things We don't WANT to do, does not mean either that We can't do the things if We WANT to, nor that We will all forget how the machines are created. That is absurd.
QuoteI agree that taking the profit out of war is a good idea. I don't happen to have a good idea how to make that happen though. Western civilization is built on war. The economy is bad and the menfolk are driving the womenfolk buggy? Have a war! Get the menfolk out from underfoot for a while. Personally, I think that's a lousy solution, but historically, that's how it's done.
And historically We have never had free energy or robots as options, either. Historically, We have had to pump Human energy into the system to keep it operational. Civilization has had wars because war profiteers have incited them so as to make a profit. Now They are making it perpetual war, with "terrorists" (however They choose to define "terrorists" moment to moment) as the "enemy."
Fascism is creeping in. Executive orders strip the US constitution of all power. NDAA's gut the Bill of Rights. And soon, the powers given to the POTUS, making Hume dictator, WILL be used against Us.
So... If We add free energy and robots for things NO ONE
WANTS to do, We free every Human on this planet to CHOOSE the standard of living They wish. Which is better? FEMA Camps...or freedom?
Quote from: petrus4 on November 11, 2012, 08:25:53 AM
It is important to understand that when most people think of robots, they think of one of two things:-
a} Cybernetic Revolt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetic_revolt), a la the Terminator and the majority of depictions of robots in popular culture. The word "robot," as originally coined, referred to a humanoid machine, as documented here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.U.R._%28Rossum%27s_Universal_Robots%29).
b} Humanoid/cyborg perversions which are the domain of transhumanists, and which I do not condone.
Why do You not condone this?
QuoteI advocate the use of robotics, (or perhaps more desirably in order to get away from humanoid connotations) machine automation with the following three restrictions, which I would like to see passed into law as capital crimes, as a means of preventing repeat offense in the only manner which is 100% certain.
a} The development or construction of humanoid robots is recognised as an unethical, pathological obscenity, which potentially poses severe risks to long term human survival. I believe that the construction or design of humanoid robots should be an extremely serious crime, and that individuals who attempt to do such research, should be eligible for capital punishment.
Why?
Quoteb} The development of devices which involve invasive and/or irremovable cybernetic (machine/human interface) technology should be permanently and universally banned, and any individual found to engage in such research should again be eligible for capital punishment, due to posing an unacceptable degree of risk to the rest of humanity as a species. In my opinion, rather than being a philosophy, transhumanism is a mental illness, (deriving from an almost completely deluded view of reality; namely, pre-quantum Cartesian materialism) and a potentially lethal one.
What "risks?" Why is this a problem?
Quotec} Any attempt to develop generalised machine intelligence, whether acorporeal, mechanical, or biological, with the capacity to surpass human intelligence, should, as with the other two, be viewed as a potentially lethal threat to long term human survival, and be dealt with accordingly.
Why? BTW, should any of Our creations express Individuality and sentience, We will recognize Them as Beings and afford Them the same rights as any other Beings.
QuoteI consider acceptable forms of robots, to be strictly and exclusively non-humanoid machines, which are built for the automation of specific tasks, and do not have the required intelligence to be capable of anything other than said tasks. I fuily recognise the potential danger of robotics as a branch of science; and while I advocate it within the stated criteria here, I do not advocate it under any other than extremely controlled circumstances.
Explain these dangers associated with Human-shaped machines...
Quote from: zorgon on November 11, 2012, 11:41:07 AM
Hell NO!!! I have been with people like that boring and phony as hell. I couldn't live like that and I think that anyone who thinks they can has RPE (Rich Person Envy} :P
I guess that would be Me, then. I came from an upper middle class family, and lived richly. But... My point is not to make everyOne live in any way THEY DON'T WANT TO. As long as the three Laws are kept.
QuoteIts not that hard to earn it :D I simply put on a Crown and took a few loyal vassals and we stepped into their world :D The best thing was, that after hob knobbing with those I got to go home :D
And that is what You could continue doing - without having to worry about how You're going to pay for things - like AC. (And given My 7 year efforts to fin a job, I can assure You - for most in the poverty boat, it is VERY difficult to earn money - else there would be no poverty.)
QuoteI put a security system into a four story house owned by a Toronto mobster and his wife... It was like working in a mausoleum. Four stories of museum quality furniture and decoration... but he was out with the boys all day till late at night and she ran her little shop... It was dead I tell ya... got an eerie feeling just being in there. You may think those living in the Hampton's have it good... trust me its not real :D
Again, the point is to follow Your bliss, not live in any given way. If You are poor and starving - and LIKE that - You can continue living like that.
Quote from: zorgon on November 11, 2012, 11:48:34 AM
Ah yes the computer...
You know... BEFORE that evil invention took over our lives people used to actually go OUT and meet each other at a coffee shop, or go to events, or parties... Now today they are all locked in their caves playing video games, dating via yahoo and wasting their life in endless hours in silly forums
And who are You to decide Others are "wasting Their time...?" It's not YOUR place; it is Theirs.
QuoteNow I suppose it could be argued that 'free energy' might change that... because if I had free gas I would be out at some Medieval War instead of hanging out here :P
Nothing like sitting in my throne in front of a camp fire and watching the slave girls dancing all night :D
You guys should have all voted for me as King errmm President :P I would have fixed things :D
Yes, free energy would give You the option of spending as much time in mock Medieval War as You want - AND come home if You WANT to - not because You HAVE to.
Quote from: zorgon on November 11, 2012, 11:58:41 AM
As to deep trenches, why would a robot be allowed to take that Bliss away from someone? Today only the very rich can afford to try that... So under your system of no money, everyone could do that :D
'To hell and back': James Cameron is first solo diver to reach deepest point on Earth - but has to race back to surface after hydraulic failure seven miles down
what a RUSH :D There is NO WAY a robot could experience that for us ;)
Of course We can take all the personal risks We want - as long as Others are not endangered. You all seem to think TAP precludes such adventure. Au contraire, it FREES Us to do these things.
Quote from: sky otter on November 11, 2012, 02:32:05 PM
ah Petrus
i do luv my wahser and dryer but don't consider them as robots
they don't think and i still work controls to make them go
..well me and the electric company
Robots don't "think." If They think, They are not robots, but Beings. Your appliances are robots.
Quoteand while i will not curb your doing whatever it is
that tickles your pickle
don't count on my joining you any time soon
The only thing that joining the efforts to spread TAP will do is take a wee bit of Your time, but beyond that, You would NEVER HAVE to change a thing. Carry on as you are now. Meanwhile, in getting it going, You SAVE LIVES in many ways; eliminating starvation, removing the power over Others the "elite" presently hold and are using to sicken Us and kill Us - like through war.
Quotethe sun is shining and i am going for a walk in the woods
have a wonderous afternoon
8)
opps i meant to add that i am free from the ideas of robot revolt ..
i have seen the commercials for movies when i turn on the tube for
weather news..so i am aware of that
but i don't like movies ..sorry
..or video games..sorry or
someone else doing my thinking for me or forming an opinion for me
or telling me what's here and out there
doesn't mean i'm stupid or unaware..just that i have CHOOSEN
not to play in that bunch
wow..imagine..making my own choices..how absolutely novel
bwhahahahahahahah
And in TAP - making Your own CHOICES is what it's all about.
As L.E. stated, the 100 mile food economy would be the first step. Not just food, but most things could be made locally, until the transport & robot system is in place. Then you could just build one giant factory near the mine & export the products all over the world. Likewise, materials from the world can be sent to the factory (this way you avoid having robots running around empty handed).
But that's for the future, we need first to bridge the transition by reverting to a simple, local economy.
Robo;
Quoteto be forced to choose is no choice.
There is
always a choice, even if you choose 'none of the above' it's a choice one can make.
It would maybe not be as good a choice as 'going with the flow' but one is still free to make it.
Quotemost people are idiots,i dont have much faith in democracy being a good avenue for the future.anarchy is more my liking.not chaos though.
Most people are
unaware, this does not make them stupid
per se, most are simply unaware because they are not noticing their surroundings. Others are being intentionally 'unaware' because they are afraid to step out of their comfort zone & seek the truth. The awareness is spreading, albeit slowly.
A democracy based on the above laws would have the best chance of surviving, especially if there's no possibility for personal gain at the cost of others.
Anarchy is different from chaos, we could have a loose, chaotic, ad-hoc world government running from the social networks.
These countries would be pretty much free to do as they please, so long as they stay within the 3 laws, share resources & info etc.
Since they themselves will also receive free resources info etc, they will greatly benefit from being part of it......
LOL Fruitbat, i loved that post ;)
As for 'rewards' & accolades for doing good work, why not? But a true inventor is humble & would therefore not seek profit in any way. However, if one of us invents something, it is free for all to share, as long as they acknoweledge the inventor.
Myself, i would simply ask for (in leu of payment) a ton of transistors & copper wire for my next project from the 'resource pool', thanks :)
QuoteI'd imagine once the word got out my youtube channel would be pretty busy and my initial ebay sales would be quite strong until someone mass produces copies and undercuts me...
That is THE problem.
Anything that they can get 'intellectual rights' on will merely create a new power struggle, since they will be quick to get it licensed, taxed, copyrighted, you name it, until it's just as expensive as oil.
They would get
even richer while we will basically still be in the same brown stuff......
The ONLY way to avoid this is to open source EVERYTHING. Like FB said, you would be free to sell your machines (and the idea here is that you sell the machine for a SMALL profit, enough to buy the components for 2 more machines for example) but you will be required by law to include the full (open sourced) plans with the machine.
Also, being 'open source' means that people will be free to change the design, experimant with it etc, just like Android & other software. This means there will be continuous improvements made, free of charge :P
Yes, Pimander;
QuoteTo implement the changes or change THE LAW requires having the power to do so. That makes it political in a very real sense. Do you think those in power will stop engaging in politics because you ask them nicely to step aside?
Change will come by forcing the people in power to change because it will not be politically expedient to do anything else. That involves being the opposite of politically naive.
Yes, it will not involve behaving in the obscenely distasteful ways the majority of successful politicians do. However, even removing the current banking system is a highly political act and will only be done with a new type of politics.
There is a reason that the 60s never gave us the world it hoped to. That was due to not engaging in a politically effective way and never having any real power.
We can ask the politicians to step aside in many different ways, Pim ;)
I think the most effective one would be for thousands of us to stand around their homes shouting "We don't need you anymore".
As for removing the current banking system, it is going to remove itself, we will have to resort to a precious metal & simple trade system until the new system kicks in. This involves not only the spreading of 'the word' but also the free energy machines, the whole shebang presented as a complete package, with a complete thread on every issue.
Kind of what we're thrashing out here today ::)
That's the point, if someone comes onto this forum, they will have many questions & arguments, and we can say 'yes, we've covered that
here would you like to join the discussion group?
Quote"There is a reason that the 60s never gave us the world it hoped to. That was due to not engaging in a politically effective way and never having any real power."
"And also not having a clearly defined path to progress on. My work has been to provide precisely that."
Touche' Amy :)
That's the point i am trying to make. We do have a clearly defined path, based on logic, mutual trust, respect etc etc.
Yes, there are problems, mostly to do with human nature. That has to change as well. It IS changing.
Only most people are still in the dark as to what to do next, even being 'aware' is not enough, you have to know what to do next.
Well, we are covering that in great detail, are we not?
QuoteQuote from: Amaterasu on 19-10-2012, 14:56:35
Like spreading awareness to the tipping point such that We just do it.
Yes, that is why I am helping to run a site like this. It is to TRY to spread awareness. But there is a need for more than awareness even though awareness is an important step in the right direction.
See above ::)
QuotePart of that path has to be the ability to make laws in line with our aims. It is politicians that make the laws.
True, but you also have unwritten natural laws, that people tend to adopt.
Why do we wave at people, even strangers on a passing ship?
We wave to show them that we have no weapons in our hands, that we come in peace.
It's an ancient human reaction to another human, just like dogs wag their tails at other dogs.
OK so now we have developed speech, writing, moving pictures & the 'net. But the communication is still the same.
I can chat with someone far away, living in a totally different culture, & say 'look, i wish you no harm, i would like to talk'
And in talking to them, one finds that they generally have the same values as you.
Don't kill, don't waste, be good to people etc.
In other words, people when left to themselves, will generally evolve these basic laws, very much like the 3 'Amy' ones ;)
It's just common sense.
Why kill you neighbour in the summer, & find out you needed his help for the harvest?
Result: you starve, so you are both dead....
If we hadn't found these natural laws, we would not be here today, i'm sure of it :)
My dear Pim :)
QuoteGovernance via the web is a pipe dream for a long time. Large proportions of the worlds population do not even have running water let alone internet access.
True enough, but the general consent for it is there already. IF we could communicate freely without gubmint interference, it would be a great step in the right direction. True, we need to literally get more people with running water before we can hope to give them anything else.
QuoteFirst you need awareness and THE MEANS to be energy independent. But in the transition, to anything resembling an era of abundance for most, you have to be able to engage politically to run things and make the technology and knowledge available to the millions of people currently out of reach. Awareness is beyond most of the millions of people in Europe, Japan and North America yet.
Oh yes, they go hand in hand. You must approach those that DO have internet access, show them the problem, the answer, the choices they have, & the knoweledge to make a free energy machine, if not an actual machine, as a free gift ;)
I can see the page now;
Sign up with the world awareness party & receive a free 100 watt energy box today!
Hows that for political clout?
QuoteI think your aims are commendable. Your methods of achieving it are destined to fail. Humanity will wipe itself out long before it happens unless we start to change laws in a democratic and progressive way. A cabal in control..... will not let go of power because some of the population ignore them. To avoid an apocalyptic scenario you have to have a political arm.
Hmm, it's change fast, or die. I think that should be on the front page of the Abundance Paradigm book, don't you?
Yes, we do need to get politically involved.
That will involve a quagmire of arguments, beliefs etc which have nothing to do with the outcome, and may in fact hinder it, but it needs to be done.
Pim is right in that we do have a very real political aim with this, don't we?
Are we 'libertarians'?
It is something we will have to get involved in at some stage, since it will be easier to reach people if you at least start with a firm political standpoint.
(of course, any talk of a real local economy system will get you labelled as a 'commie' on sites like ATS within seconds ;) )
"Yessir, we's all gawd-fearin, hard workin' bible thumpin' redneck pa-tree-arts, we don' need youse dirty commie hippies roun' here"
To which, my usual reply is "We don't use 'ism's' of any kind roun' here"
(which is a bit of a lie, i like buddh
ism :)
QuoteI'm with you all the way on making people aware. However, I am completely against your notion that it would be a bad thing to have political clout. It is a naive and dangerous position.
I think you have a good point, Pim. You should head up the political arm of TAP, Amy the 'awareness team' & the inventors busy on the machines!
All working together, publishers, historians, reporters, tinkerers, and yes maybe even lawyers (OMG) we can all do something towards it...
I also agree with Petrus, A cage of our own making, running in we are, hmmm? {waggles pointy ears}
QuoteIt's exactly like Occupy now; who are basically useless, because while they scream loudly at the corporate world about what victims they view themselves as being, any remote suggestion that they give up their mobile phones and try and develop a non-corporate form of telecommunications, will simply get you laughed at.
Just wait until the bankers themselves are living in tents, they will soon come around... ;)
Let's face it, when TSHTF they will be the ones hardest hit, they will have absolutely no income, no means of generating anything, & no knoweledge of what to do next. If they are smart they will quit & buy a farm somewhere. 300 of them have done just that :P
QuoteThey do not want a genuinely new scenario, because they still do not believe, fundamentally, that they have the ability to make beneficial decisions for themselves. They simply want a scenario where they can trust government and corporations to truly protect their interests, so they can go back to sleep. What they don't understand is that that will never happen, because the interests of government and corporations have very little in common with those of the general population.
Nail, head.So what do we do about that?
QuoteQuote from: petrus4 on 20-10-2012, 12:49:18
I am no longer really emotionally invested in this outcome, but I will say that if there are any people out there who want a more positive scenario than what the cabal will give them, then the most important thing to do to start, is realise that the only reason why the cabal are in power at all, is because that's what the majority WANT.
And when the majority do not you are in a position to change things democratically. To politically disengage is foolish and delays the transition.
Indeed.
It would take relatively few of us to tip things in the right direction,
provided we have a fully worked out agenda that is transparent & free for all to read.
QuoteAnd "laws" are keeping Them at bay? No, "laws" are not the answer. THEY will ignore US. You think movements are powerless, then?
No, I think that in the transition period apolitical movements are not powerful enough to usher in an era of abundance. That is the lesson I have learned for Amnesty, Greenpeace, CND and the sixties flower power movement generally. Noble aims but politically naive. I think that I have already made myself clear.
Yes, those organisations tended to ignore the political side.
They mainly concentrated making people aware of the problem, rather than with the solution (and by this i mean taking politics into account).
But they are still useful.
It's vitally important at this stage to present people with a solution. One that has been very carefully thought out.
I think we are capable of this, as are many similar sites working along the same lines.
Of course, any cohesive effort to push for TAP as a political goal will make us instant enemies overnight so,
softly softly, catchee monkey ;)
Let's go full steam ahead on the awareness campaign, that still has to happen.
Keep people informed, show them results, show them alternatives, ask them what they
think....
Openly discuss the politics of it, i tried once in the 'implications of free energy' thread, which has still been largely ignored.
That thread does what it says in the title, it discusses the
implications of it all. Political, social, economic.
Yes, Pim, we should learn from history
and become the 100th monkeyIf the actions of a single human can change the world (Hitler, Napoleon, Newton, Tesla) then what can a dedicated group of humans NOT do?
QuoteOn the other hand, the right kind of political movement is the only one that will stop either a disaster or the cabal clinging to power for a lot longer. Unfortunately,you will be long dead before things move far unless a movement with the political nous and right principles to implement some of your ideas comes along.
Well, that's a bit dramatic, i think things will happen a lot sooner.
Greenpeace would join us, we could join Zeitgeist & so on, to become The Abundance Party :)
There are enough people with
similar thoughts, they just need to get to know each other.
The key question, which i can safely say is very much in our 'domain' is the application of free energy tech.
Build it, sell it, show it, give it away. build another.
Alongside the machine needs to be the plan, the TAP intro letter, links, the whole shebang, all neatly wrapped up & presented to the peeps as a (more or less complete) package. If we don't do that, we will have serious problems.....
Everything is open sourced, so peeps can mess with it as they please, and no patents in sight.
QuoteThey are abject failures. That is the lesson to take.
That I am convinced that you have not learned said lessons.
And I am convinced that You don't see that there is a vast difference between these movements in a scarcity paradigm, where a number of People feel threatened through money issues mainly, and The Abundance Paradigm, which threatens only power over Others but does not take away materially - and in fact provides vastly more for most.
Guys, we need to learn the leson that we do need to be politically active.
I signed a petition to release gravity technology, that was a political act, was it not, Amy?
And we do have a vast difference--call it an edge over the competition-- we know what needs to be done.
QuoteZorgon has embraced his dark side, or at least what I would usually interpret as darkness. I, on the other hand, keep the beast caged. That is the main reason why at times he has been capable of antagonising me to the extent that he does. His own example is forcing me to confront an element of my own nature (more than one, in fact) which I am not prepared to accept.
Yes, he does that rather well ;)
QuotePolitics would be absolute moral suicide for me, Perhaps for you. That does not mean that all political change is a bad thing.
True enough.
QuoteMark my words. Without a political move, the abundance paradigm is a pipe dream - probably for hundreds of years if not beyond an apocalypse.
I agree to disagree, although i think we may have only one crack at this, otherwise the transition may be delayed for centuries, or fail to happen at all.
I think it's worth fighting to give it a chance, we have nothing to lose, & a wonderful future to win.Maybe we won't live to see it happen, but it's our job to
get the ball rolling and we are not alone, as i pointed out earlier.
OK Amy tends to look maybe too far ahead, but we need to agree on a course of action NOW & deal with the finer points later.
QuoteIf it means we have to wait centuries, then perhaps we do; but the reality is that most people simply do not want what we are offering. They have been taught not to want it. They have been taught that it cannot work to such a degree, that they are not prepared to try.
Then let us start by un-teaching them.
Hi Z, sharp & to the point as always :)
I agree (mostly) with your post,
QuoteSo you justify yourself by saying they are wrong, they have been taught wrong and whatever. Your plan has three laws of compliance or they will be removed (as i understand it)
Kinda sounds like "My way or the highway"
Well you can
make it sound like that ::)
I tend to say something like 'we don't have a choice, the current system is going down & it will take us all down with it'.
As i already stated, most people have already adopted these laws from their own free will. The only block is the scarcity paradigm & the power they still have over us, which is nothing more than fancy advertising gimmicks. Like that 'Obama Vs. Romney' show...
QuoteMissionaries work to a point. The Jesuits converted a LOT of people over the centuries... (mostly with fear and brute force ) Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons still send missionaries to my door. But Missionaries don't work very well on free thinkers And this board has a lot of those
:) :) :)
QuoteAnd to build a new infra structure requires TONS of money, many manufacturers to give up time to make these new devices that everyone will get to use for free. Now I can envision a rich eccentric billionaire being so magnanimous to give all that away free... but he would still need a working model to mass produce.
You find the millionaire, we will build the machine :P
QuoteWell one thing is certain, while we debate the issue of cheap or free energy, the military industrialist are going full speed ahead using solar energy,synthetic fuel and oil and fusion power. So while we suffer THEY are making it happen for their own uses... and I see not one EG device being used by them to generate the AWESOME power that they produce. Easily enough to power the planet several times over
Bingo!
QuoteGee. Could We all live like that? Or do We want to put Our energy into the system that lets Them live like that? If We can all live like that, why is it Our duty to "earn" it?
It is our duty to help others, & thereby ourselves.
Simple, isn't it?
Shasta, i read that book, Asimov saw it too, & he had an answer for it.
Look at it another way, you would have the TIME to go & meet freinds while the robots do the laundry :)
Petrus, a great post.
As a CNC specialist, i agree you could automate nearly everything with a simple program that would not involve supercomputers, A.I. or laws of any kind (for robots).Just lots of sensors & a few subroutines like 'avoid squashing humans when working' stuff like that....
Asimov's thinking machines will have their own challenges, when (if) we get round to making them.
I have been able to write simple survival programs in basic for a model tank that allowed it to survive.
Of course, the more agressive it was, the better it survived.
Worked fine until they all turned on each other, the survival subroutine overcoming the friend/foe routine.
Fascinating to watch.....
QuoteYou know... BEFORE that evil invention took over our lives people used to actually go OUT and meet each other at a coffee shop, or go to events, or parties... Now today they are all locked in their caves playing video games, dating via yahoo and wasting their life in endless hours in silly forums
Hear hear! {sips his rare malt whiskey}
I would vote you King, Z. Not because you own this site, or the naked ladies dancing (well maybe) but because you are intelligent, fair,attentive & humerous. All the right qualities for a leader ;)
Quotewhat a RUSH There is NO WAY a robot could experience that for us
True, just as it is my bliss to do incredibly dangerous things like work on live cables in a wet cellar or fix a valve on top of a 300 foot cooling tower.
No pesky robot is going to take THAT pleasure away from me.
I will allow him to carry my lunchbox & roll cigarrettes for me :P
When i'm not doing that i will be with Sky Otter, sitting on the porch LOL!
QuoteIf You want to stay put and change nothing, You don't have to. BUT... People who presently are living in poverty, starving, working a jobs They hate because that's all They can get, can CHOOSE to live like They do in rich neighborhoods - if They want to - without HAVING to go to a job They hate, without pumping Their energy into the system which allows only SOME of Us to live richly.
Exactly, that's worth fighting for.
I have a choice of things to eat tomorrow, a choice of jobs, even.
Many humans don't even have those simple choices, so i'm rich, relatively speaking.
It is my bliss to fix machines, maintain factories, & build newer, better machines.
People have become to hate their very existence, serving this vast machine we call government.
So i guess our message is for
those of us who still have a choice, to help those who don'tAnd our message is also for those who
think they don't have a choice, when they doMost of all, our message is for people who do have a choice & are aware that they do.
QuoteMaybe because They have to deal with the issues of the imposed scarcity paradigm...
Yes, and that's going to defeat itself. When people are cold & hungry, they will be very quick to take an alternative view, especially when it's been
seen to workAah, robots...
There are no dangers in using intelligent robots, providing they are well designed.
We are a long long way from making a sentient machine at this stage, it's a question for the future, not relevant now.
Besides, Asimov had all the robot problems covered way back when...
Did i miss anything?
8)
Quote from: Amaterasu on November 11, 2012, 04:33:27 PM
Why do You not condone this?
Watch
The Animatrix and/or
Artificial Intelligence, Amy.
Sentient AI is
not something we want. Most people are terrified of
The Terminator's brand of cybernetic revolt, but Skynet was truthfully tame compared to what we
could see happen. Your initial position in TAP was correct, where Amelia wrote in her diary that generalised AI beyond a specific level would be unethical. It is.
More specifically, humanoid robots are a problem for two other reasons.
a} You have the potential for them to develop to the point where they are (to the naked eye, at least) completely indistinguishable from humans. That was one of the possibilities which
The Animatrix described; it's not a pretty picture.
b} The above point raises potentially insoluble ontological questions; at least from a purely materialistic/atheistic standpoint. This also both leads to, and originates from, Descartes' original belief that all forms of life are essentially just biological machines, and as such, completely disposable.
Viewing the universe and even living creatures as essentially soulless machines, moral compunctions about the treatment of a living, feeling being cease to apply. Max Velmans observes:-
"According to Descartes, only humans combine res cogitans (the stuff of consciousness) with res extensa (material stuff). Animals, which he refers to as 'brutes', are nothing more than unconscious machines."
Accordingly, Descartes' followers had no compunctions about nailing dogs up to boards and cutting them open to see how the parts worked, understanding their cries of pain as nothing more than the wheezing of bellows and the creaking of wheels. Fontenelle, one of Descartes' contemporaries, describes it like this:
"They administered beatings to dogs with perfect indifference, and made fun of those who pitied the creatures as if they had felt pain. They said that the animals were clocks; that the cries they emitted when struck, were only the noise of a little spring which had been touched, but that the whole body was without feeling. They nailed poor animals up on boards by their four paws to vivisect them and see the circulation of the blood."
See—here's the pump! Here are the bellows!
By this logic, the other objects of the universe, including living ones, do not really matter. They lack something that the self possesses. Morality applies to them no more than it applies to a blender, a clock. Suppose I take a soft plastic toy cat and replace its squeaker with a device that when squeezed made a sound just like a cat in mortal agony. When I stamp on it with my boot, I am not really causing suffering, only the appearance of suffering. I haven't done anything immoral (a little twisted, maybe, but not evil). If animals and indeed the entire universe are similarly insensate, bearing only the illusion of feeling, then the same moral license applies to the whole universe. Such is the implacable conclusion of the Galilean banishment of the subjective from the realm of scientific reality.-- Charles Eisenstein,
The Ascent of Humanity (http://www.ascentofhumanity.com/chapter3-6.php)
Quote from: PLAYSWITHMACHINES on November 11, 2012, 10:00:59 PM
That is THE problem.
Anything that they can get 'intellectual rights' on will merely create a new power struggle, since they will be quick to get it licensed, taxed, copyrighted, you name it, until it's just as expensive as oil.
They would get even richer while we will basically still be in the same brown stuff......
The ONLY way to avoid this is to open source EVERYTHING. Like FB said, you would be free to sell your machines (and the idea here is that you sell the machine for a SMALL profit, enough to buy the components for 2 more machines for example) but you will be required by law to include the full (open sourced) plans with the machine.
Um. Only three Laws. If We decide We want a statute or a code or a rule or a declaration or an decree or an act or a mandate or a constitution or a...whatever that deems this, I guess. But I'm thinking those that did not disclose would not get sales if Others, more community minded, did.
If the expectations of the whole are presented ahead of time, and effectively We're on the same page, I figure things will move along briskly without adding much in the way of constrictions.
QuoteAlso, being 'open source' means that people will be free to change the design, experimant with it etc, just like Android & other software. This means there will be continuous improvements made, free of charge :P
I think Linux is an awesome model of open source. [smile]
QuoteDid i miss anything?
8)
Not a thing. [hugs]
As for action? Spread awareness. Keep it in Consciousness. If those of You with more than virtually nothing can come up with more specific stuff, add that to it. But the first hurdle is to get awareness to the tipping point. The easiest - costs nothing but the energy to talk/type. The hardest - 10% must be aware and thinking about it.
Quote from: petrus4 on November 12, 2012, 12:40:34 AM
Watch The Animatrix and/or Artificial Intelligence, Amy.
Sentient AI is not something we want. Most people are terrified of The Terminator's brand of cybernetic revolt, but Skynet was truthfully tame compared to what we could see happen. Your initial position in TAP was correct, where Amelia wrote in her diary that generalised AI beyond a specific level would be unethical. It is.
More specifically, humanoid robots are a problem for two other reasons.
a} You have the potential for them to develop to the point where they are (to the naked eye, at least) completely indistinguishable from humans. That was one of the possibilities which The Animatrix described; it's not a pretty picture.
b} The above point raises potentially insoluble ontological questions; at least from a purely materialistic/atheistic standpoint. This also both leads to, and originates from, Descartes' original belief that all forms of life are essentially just biological machines, and as such, completely disposable.
Viewing the universe and even living creatures as essentially soulless machines, moral compunctions about the treatment of a living, feeling being cease to apply. Max Velmans observes:-
"According to Descartes, only humans combine res cogitans (the stuff of consciousness) with res extensa (material stuff). Animals, which he refers to as 'brutes', are nothing more than unconscious machines."
Accordingly, Descartes' followers had no compunctions about nailing dogs up to boards and cutting them open to see how the parts worked, understanding their cries of pain as nothing more than the wheezing of bellows and the creaking of wheels. Fontenelle, one of Descartes' contemporaries, describes it like this:
"They administered beatings to dogs with perfect indifference, and made fun of those who pitied the creatures as if they had felt pain. They said that the animals were clocks; that the cries they emitted when struck, were only the noise of a little spring which had been touched, but that the whole body was without feeling. They nailed poor animals up on boards by their four paws to vivisect them and see the circulation of the blood."
See—here's the pump! Here are the bellows!
By this logic, the other objects of the universe, including living ones, do not really matter. They lack something that the self possesses. Morality applies to them no more than it applies to a blender, a clock. Suppose I take a soft plastic toy cat and replace its squeaker with a device that when squeezed made a sound just like a cat in mortal agony. When I stamp on it with my boot, I am not really causing suffering, only the appearance of suffering. I haven't done anything immoral (a little twisted, maybe, but not evil). If animals and indeed the entire universe are similarly insensate, bearing only the illusion of feeling, then the same moral license applies to the whole universe. Such is the implacable conclusion of the Galilean banishment of the subjective from the realm of scientific reality.
-- Charles Eisenstein, The Ascent of Humanity (http://www.ascentofhumanity.com/chapter3-6.php)
What's wrong with Asimov's Robot Laws? And I think that things like sex robots will be unavoidable.
I also suspect that there were elements in these stories that either are non-applicable in an abundance paradigm, or did not enlist a Betterment Ethic/open source/stigmergic approach. Will have to read these sometime.
Quote from: Amaterasu on November 12, 2012, 01:15:10 AM
What's wrong with Asimov's Robot Laws?
They were made to be broken. Asimov specifically intended them to be a literary coat hanger, or jumping off point for stories. He created three seemingly plausible laws for robots to follow, and then wrote stories exploring various situations where said laws were violated.
yes he did.
And he had to go to great lengths to invent scenarios where the laws could be broken. The zeroth law being the problem we may eventually have to face, that being about harming a human to save others. This led to a war among the robots, some holding the belief that they should serve humans no matter how crazy they are, and the other robots who reasoned that we should be protected from harming ourselves, by any means possible.
Again, this problem was eventually solved.
I reiterate that A.I. is a long way off from where we are now, it's not a problem for now.
Let's get back to the political stance of TAP.
How would we define 'reasonable force' when dealing with humans who would try to ruin the plan? Do we just banish them?
That could be the same as a death sentence..
However, i think it will be unavoidable. we would have to be able to deal with crime etc laws or not...since it would be work, or starve.
I know what i would choose to do.
Couple points....
Most people that hang out in forums and chat rooms are for the most part out of work and have nothing better to do :P Any real mover and shakers is too busy to come in here and share. I have written to several of them asking them to stop by and share and each one so far has written that they are too busy.
I myself can be here because the only work I have right now is what I can produce from home and that will soon need to take up more of my time before I run out of cash to pay the bills.
So spreading the word via the internet does work to a point, but it doesn't really reach those in position to make it happen
The other point is back to human nature.
People have a sheep mentality... or more correctly a herd mentality. As such the majority of people NEED a leader. No amount of trying to 'wake up the sheep' will work BECAUSE they LIKE being sheep. I have seen this happen myself in our Medieval world. As long as the leader has a good working idea, you WILL have loyal willing 'serfs'
It is the same principal at work in cults and governments. People need a leader... they will ALWAYS seek a leader. Now a leader can be benevolent or a tyrant... doesn't matter both work though the tyrants don't usually last as long.
This is not something that can be changed by any paradigm... it is the very nature of the beast... and those in power today, as well as all those dictators, clan chiefs, spiritual leaders, what have you, KNOW the truth of this and use it to their advantage.
You can use this for TAP, but you will need to put something on the table that they can sink their teeth into.
Hitler got as far as he did because a) he had amazing powers of speech to sell his plan; b) he gave Germans that were out of work and starving jobs, the Volkswagon (people's car) and a speed limitless autobahn AND he gave them a target for their frustration. Though he was definitely not a nice guy :P as people discovered afterwards, he nevertheless knew the secret of Sheep :D
Quote from: PLAYSWITHMACHINES on November 12, 2012, 07:21:07 PM
How would we define 'reasonable force' when dealing with humans who would try to ruin the plan? Do we just banish them?
That could be the same as a death sentence..
That is a key point to TAP's three laws... just exactly what do you do with those who want no part of it?
'reasonable force' you say? So those who opposed your plan, a plan that claims to allow free will to reign supreme, will be force to think your way? Seems kinda counter productive in my opinion. I mean if your selling a plan that is supposed to give people freedom and in the same breath you say 'so long as you think our way' I don't see a lot of success in that sales pitch
Banish you say? To where exactly? And if enough are banished from your Utopia, would they not then be bitter and want revenge... and plot from outside? Rome was destroyed by Barbarian hordes... The Phoenician Utopia was destroyed by Alexander and his looting murderous hordes who burned it to the ground just because..
So what then? Will you eliminate them instead? Because if you don't your TAP will eventually be overrun by those you banished
You could banish them off world... but that would require spaceships, and once you have those, the 'colonists' (banished ones) could always return and drop a few space bombs into your Utopia. Australia was once one such colony for the banished :D (at least they never sought revenge :P ) But today there is no place on this planet that you could send the banished where they couldn't come back to mess up your plan
I suppose euthanasia is an option, but then you would be worse than the current PTB who haven't actually implemented THAT option yet
Quote from: zorgon on November 12, 2012, 07:57:58 PM
Couple points....
Most people that hang out in forums and chat rooms are for the most part out of work and have nothing better to do :P Any real mover and shakers is too busy to come in here and share. I have written to several of them asking them to stop by and share and each one so far has written that they are too busy.
I myself can be here because the only work I have right now is what I can produce from home and that will soon need to take up more of my time before I run out of cash to pay the bills.
So spreading the word via the internet does work to a point, but it doesn't really reach those in position to make it happen
I have emailed MANY - Sir Richard Branson, senators and representatives, organization after organization, individuals, and on and on. If I am not the only One...They may take notice.
QuoteThe other point is back to human nature.
People have a sheep mentality... or more correctly a herd mentality. As such the majority of people NEED a leader. No amount of trying to 'wake up the sheep' will work BECAUSE they LIKE being sheep. I have seen this happen myself in our Medieval world. As long as the leader has a good working idea, you WILL have loyal willing 'serfs'
And in TAP, there will be the organizers - and the participants. So? I don't see how this is a problem.
QuoteIt is the same principal at work in cults and governments. People need a leader... they will ALWAYS seek a leader. Now a leader can be benevolent or a tyrant... doesn't matter both work though the tyrants don't usually last as long.
Not entirely true - the People who want leaders want leaders. The People who want to lead will seek followers. The better Their ideas are, the more who will follow Them. They will not be able to buy votes, or pay goons to strong-arm... But the good ideas will gain traction and the followers will make the ideas reality, at the direction of the leader(s).
QuoteThis is not something that can be changed by any paradigm... it is the very nature of the beast... and those in power today, as well as all those dictators, clan chiefs, spiritual leaders, what have you, KNOW the truth of this and use it to their advantage.
I never said it would be changed. What WOULD be changed is that the MOTIVES will NOT include money or power over Others. Motives will be Betterment.
QuoteYou can use this for TAP, but you will need to put something on the table that they can sink their teeth into.
Not sure what You mean here...
QuoteHitler got as far as he did because a) he had amazing powers of speech to sell his plan; b) he gave Germans that were out of work and starving jobs, the Volkswagon (people's car) and a speed limitless autobahn AND he gave them a target for their frustration. Though he was definitely not a nice guy :P as people discovered afterwards, he nevertheless knew the secret of Sheep :D
And TAP gives everyOne actual freedom... No starvation, no poverty, no thirst, no exposure, no oppression, no wage/debt slavery, no WAR. And no means for ill intent to spread widely.
So... What more does One want?
QuotePeople have a sheep mentality... or more correctly a herd mentality. As such the majority of people NEED a leader. No amount of trying to 'wake up the sheep' will work BECAUSE they LIKE being sheep. I have seen this happen myself in our Medieval world. As long as the leader has a good working idea, you WILL have loyal willing 'serfs'
I guess when they finally get fed up with being sheep, they will turn to someone to lead them, it's natural...
Maybe we are here to teach the leaders...?
(May as well be you, Z. No one else has the guts, i'm just a techno-junkie with an opinion ;) )
QuoteThis is not something that can be changed by any paradigm... it is the very nature of the beast... and those in power today, as well as all those dictators, clan chiefs, spiritual leaders, what have you, KNOW the truth of this and use it to their advantage.
OK, but if
we all know the truth, what then?
I have no problem with helping people through the quagmire of life, done it all the time.
As far as i see it, we have a solution here which is spiritual, technological, political,
humanistic in it's approach.
Maybe we should draw up a Planetary Reform Council, invite everybody, & see what happens ::)
I'll be in the batcave, sniffing solder smoke (as is my bliss ;) )
I'm in, Luke.
I would be interested. However, it has to be democratic or I am out.
Fundamental principles in no particular order (everyone feel free to add to them):-
1. Democracy
2. Fairness/"equality"
3. Environmentally aware.
4. Gradual reform of economic system including the removal of the banking and unfair trading system.
5. Removal of the right to own another persons home.
6. Big business, infrastructure etc not privately owned - small business encouraged.
7. A shortening of intellectual property rights duration, at least during transition. this would allow research and publication to still be something that people can make a living from so as not to stifle innovation. While the economy is still as it is, an immediate move to open source would bring lots of good work to a halt.
Similar to yours Amy, but with differences. I am basically looking at a body capable of co-ordinating a transition as opposed to where we would like to end up.
Quote from: Pimander on November 14, 2012, 04:23:03 PM
I would be interested. However, it has to be democratic or I am out.
Fundamental principles in no particular order (everyone feel free to add to them):-
1. Democracy
2. Fairness/"equality"
3. Environmentally aware.
4. Gradual reform of economic system including the removal of the banking and unfair trading system.
5. Removal of the right to own another persons home.
6. Big business, infrastructure etc not privately owned - small business encouraged.
7. A shortening of intellectual property rights duration, at least during transition. this would allow research and publication to still be something that people can make a living from so as not to stifle innovation. While the economy is still as it is, an immediate move to open source would bring lots of good work to a halt.
Similar to yours Amy, but with differences. I am basically looking at a body capable of co-ordinating a transition as opposed to where we would like to end up.
Well... Stigmergic governance via the web is about as democratic as it gets: http://www.thelivingmoon.com/forum/index.php?topic=2103.0
It is fully fair and equal.
The Ethical Planetarian Party Platform calls for organic, environmentally aware action - as seen in the OP here.
Adding free energy and robots WILL grdually eliminate the need for banking and eliminate unfair activities.
Home and land ownership will revert to those inhabiting the homes - plus new homes, no longer tied to a grid will become available, with likely many floating/flying in the air. With no money, "ownership" becomes moot.
"Businesses" will change radically - less "businesses" and more problem-solving groups.
Intellectual property will not need protecting - and no living per se will be made by anyOne. Any who "steal" intellectual property will become pariah while the originator will enjoy postitive social currency.
Seems the difference is mainly in Your expectation of continued scarcity paradigm needs - but adding free energy and robots will ensure The Abundance Paradigm - which answers every point You have here very well.
I do understand what you mean. There is no point waiting or failing to start making changes now though. We still have banks money and are tied to a grid. In the mean time we need action or when the advances arrive the transition will take even longer.
Pim, I'm all for that, if You can get it going, but in the meantime, I spread the Paradigm. Because after the initial step of spreading awareness is to have a plan. Just saying, "We need to change this and that," will not direct the flow-change towards a specific outcome. It will be diffuse, and when the bandaid has been placed on one symptom another issue will flare up.
The idea is to get rid of the entire system and run things differently. So while We're all putting Our bandaids on the sores We see, spread awareness of a goal.
The system We have is the issue. Not this symptom or that.
Hi guys, sorry i'm late :)
Pim, i agree completely with your proposal, except for item 7 which should be scrapped.
We no longer have the luxury or the right to 'intellectual' property any more than we should have the right to own other people's homes.
OK housing will still be a big issue, but most people will be able to live at their workplace (or work at their living place) virtually rent-free, according to yet-to-be drafted TAP 'rules'
Rule is too strong a word, lets call it 'agreements reached in the new constitution of the planetary council' :P
But claiming ownership of an
idea is counterproductive, all ideas should be freely shared, like Android, so that people can (freely, let's not forget that) copy, use, & even update their own software, but we could apply that philosophy to cars, washing machines,
anything...
There are 10^6 ways to skin a cat, and people should at least all have access to the same info. This would mean Progress with a capital P.
I think intellectual rights should mean no more than honest acknoweledgement of the inventor.
QuoteWhile the economy is still as it is, an immediate move to open source would bring lots of good work to a halt.
Why?
It would be stifling innovation.
Person A invents a mousetrap, but sits on the patent until he can make & sell them. Meanwhile, person B gets fed up waiting for a solution, is fed up with the mice, and builds a mousetrap also.
B's mousetrap is perfect, it is simpler & more effective than A's.
B starts to make them for his neighbours, & also gets offers to help pay for them to be made.
A has lost out, by the time he gets his mousetrap on the market, it's already outdated & overpriced.
B is happy, he's not rich, but he has no more mouse problems, & has lots of work, & made a lot of freinds.
QuoteSimilar to yours Amy, but with differences. I am basically looking at a body capable of co-ordinating a transition as opposed to where we would like to end up.
Sounds cool 8)
Pimander, this sounds like you were cut out for this ;)
Count me in ;)
Patents are moot in TAP... Why would One patent something? Not protection of profits... And by releasing the idea, One earns regard for what One has contributed.
There is no "planetary council" with governance being stigmergic and via the web.
But I suppose if We're talking interim...which I see as unnecessary. Get the ideas to the tipping point, add free energy, fund retrofitting and new development, fund robots, and We will go into TAP.
I'd like to start a business called the Peoples Robot Company...
8)
Quote from: PLAYSWITHMACHINES on November 27, 2012, 12:14:06 AM
But claiming ownership of an idea is counterproductive, all ideas should be freely shared, like Android, so that people can (freely, let's not forget that) copy, use, & even update their own software, but we could apply that philosophy to cars, washing machines, anything...
I agree in principle.
During a transitional phase though, development of technology that requires a big investment would stop if there was no way to recoup the investment. New research live novel cancer therapies, transportation technologies and power sources can cost millions. In a transition the facilities are still privately owned, unfortunately. Therefore they would close if there was no incentive to research.
Ultimately I agree that intellectual property for most things is undesirable and is not in the interest of the whole but of a part of the whole. But we are not in an abundance paradigm yet, in fact we are not even transitioning to one as the economic system is based on competition for limited resources rather than on sharing ones we have plenty of..
Quote from: PLAYSWITHMACHINES on November 27, 2012, 04:01:52 PM
I'd like to start a business called the Peoples Robot Company...
8)
Hey! I like that! I'd invest if I had more than good wishes to offer.
Agreed, Pim. I see your point.
We are still looking for a nice gadget that we could market for Pegasus...
I see robots built using 'artificial muscles' a kind of electrostatic drive system, which is already in use in some advanced machines today.
This would mean it would be dead easy to build a robot in human form, with human-like physiology. Easier than building one from scratch.
All we need is a compact yet powerful energy source.
OK that's all just tech problems. The real problem of getting through the transition is twofold; we must pursue the free energy & off-the-grid goals as much as we can, and at the same time inform people of why it is necessary.
Unapologetic bump.
[smile]
Quote from: PlaysWithMachines on November 28, 2012, 05:51:34 PM
Agreed, Pim. I see your point.
We are still looking for a nice gadget that we could market for Pegasus...
How about putting together cheap Geiger counters?
Highly useful and if the price is right, very salable these days!
Definitely, they not only want them, they need them!
I would hate to be thought of as 'cashing in' on F%^ed up Shima, but we could make them real cheap, i hope cheaper than the 'Ray 2000' i have here, it's worth about 300 bucks...
we should be able to go much cheaper than that, i've seen the tubes on Ebay for as little as 30 bucks so all you need is the counter electronics (and supply circuit for the tube) and a small neat case to put it in.
FB did most of the research on the parts, he's the one to talk to about prices i guess ::)
Later!
Quote from: PlaysWithMachines on September 15, 2013, 07:27:22 PM
we should be able to go much cheaper than that, i've seen the tubes on Ebay for as little as 30 bucks so all you need is the counter electronics (and supply circuit for the tube) and a small neat case to put it in.
FB did most of the research on the parts, he's the one to talk to about prices i guess ::)
Later!
The nice neat case would make the product marketable. I guess we should start a thread in inventors soon.
FB, have you already priced the components for similar? Imaging how much baulk buying from Taiwan or China would lower costs.