Pegasus Research Consortium

Russia cries foul over Scottish independence vote

QuoteRussia has said the conduct of the Scottish referendum "did not meet international standards", with its observers complaining the count took place in rooms that were too big and that the procedure was badly flawed.

In an apparent attempt to mirror persistent western criticism of Russia's own elections, Igor Borisov – an accredited observer – said the poll failed to meet basic international norms.

Borisov and three other Russians arrived in Edinburgh on Wednesday evening, the state news agency Ria Novosti reported. The team from Moscow's Public Institute of Suffrage watched voting take place in the Scottish capital and the surrounding area. It also met with Scottish politicians, voters and representatives from non-governmental organisations, Ria said.

Borisov said he was unimpressed by what he saw. He said the room where he watched the count on Thursday night was a cavernous "aircraft hangar" next to an airfield. It was difficult to see what was going on, he said, adding: "The hangar is approximately 100m by 300m. There are tables, with voting papers stacked upon them, but the observers are stuck around the perimeter. Even if you want to, it's impossible to tell what's happening. It's also unclear where the boxes with ballot papers come from."

Borisov said the US state department, the UK and other western countries loudly hectored the Kremlin about Russia's supposed democratic deficiencies. But in this instance, he said, London and Edinburgh had not "fully met" the requirements of a proper referendum.

"Nobody was interested in who was bringing in the voting slips. There were no stamps or signatures as the bulletins were handed over," he said.

Supporters of the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, had been fervently hoping for a yes vote. Some Russian nationalists had even fixed yes badges to their Twitter profiles, with one –Konstantin Rykov – adding a "Mc" to the front of his Cyrillic surname. (The badge and "Mc" had disappeared by Friday morning). The Kremlin apparently saw Scottish independence as a way of justifying its own hasty annexation of Crimea in March, following a "referendum" conducted in just three weeks and condemned by the west, as armed Russian forces and irregulars swarmed over the Crimean peninsula. Moscow also felt that a yes vote would weaken the UK and bring to power a post-independence Scottish government more amenable to Moscow's wishes. Alex Salmond, Scotland's first minister, expressed qualified admiration for President Putin in an interview with GQ in March.

The Kremlin propaganda channel RT, meanwhile, speculated that the result might have been rigged and expressed surprise at the "North Korean" levels of turnout.

Afshin Rattansi, the presenter of RT's Going Underground show, said there were "international considerations", such as the UK's nuclear deterrent, which had affected the outcome. He said: "With the vote as close as this, with the mainstream media on one side, with a massive amount of people from Westminster running up to beg Scotland the other way, and certain recounts in certain bits of the poll, which way did the vote go, really?"

He added: "It is normally the sort of turnout you would expect in North Korea. Usually media here would go 'we don't believe it. How can it be nearly 90%?'".

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/19/russia-calls-foul-scottish-referendum?CMP=fb_gu

To play Devils advocate....

I'd say the second video doesn't show anything untoward at all.  They are not ballot papers going into that plastic box.  I'm not even sure what that video has to do with the vote unless I missed something.

The table that says no on it definitely looks a bit odd.  I wish we could get more information on that.

The video of the guy allegedly filling in ballot papers could be anything.  You can't tell whether he is really a counter or what that paper is.  He looks more like a security steward or other worker to me.  Vote counters don't wear those high visibility coats.

The woman counting who moves votes could have been checking whether she had made a mistake.  I'm guessing it is a pretty tedious job and you could get it wrong.  It looks suspicious but we can't say for sure what happened there.

I'd like more info on that table though.

My guess is that there might have been some cheating.  I doubt it is on a scale enough to change the result though as it was won by a big margin.  Also there is no reason to assume that any cheats were all on the same side.

I am more than half Scottish (2 Scottish Grandmothers and Grandad was half Scottish).  From talking to relatives and friends they say that opinion really was pretty much split about 50/50.  Even within families it is that way so the score looks as though it reflects that roughly.

I'd definitely be more worried if the vote was closer.  I'm watching this story with interest though because that table looks extremely suspect to me.

I agree with two of your points.

But beyond that, why is the lady, who is sorting the votes into two piles, back tracking on her piles, when there are only TWO WORDS to be sorted.


YES


NO

If she cannot manage that task the FIRST TIME ROUND - She very much needs to go back to school or the opticians.

Secondly, how many more YES votes were placed on the NO table?

Again, I repeat, its TWO BLOODY WORDS lol.

Thirdly, I agree with the Russian perspective.

The voting system looks like, and was apparently, a complete farse.

Quote from: Sinny on September 19, 2014, 04:15:31 PM
But beyond that, why is the lady, who is sorting the votes into two piles, back tracking on her piles, when there are only TWO WORDS to be sorted.


YES


NO

If she cannot manage that task the FIRST TIME ROUND - She very much needs to go back to school or the opticians.

She might be cheating.  I can't be sure but sometimes when you do lab work you have to do these long repetitive counts (although it is increasingly done automatically) and you do get bored and kind of go into a trance.  I have done hundreds the wrong way round and had to go back so it is not just about needing to go to school.  Like I say, she might have been cheating but I doubt it.  Don't forget she would have known that she was being filmed at the count too and there was someone sat beside her..

QuoteSecondly, how many more YES votes were placed on the NO table?

Well we don't know.  All we know is we can see one in the video.  Based on observing a by-election count back in my radical student days, I think they keep the votes together in case they have to do a recount if it is very close.

QuoteThirdly, I agree with the Russian perspective.

The voting system looks like, and was apparently, a complete farse.

I'm not sure whether that is true about not being able to observe.  I know when I observed (next to a famous trade union leader from the 80s ;)) you could walk right up to the tables and stand over the people doing the count.  I mean literally right there.  The rule was just that you were not allowed to touch anyone or anything on the tables or talk to the counters.

Maybe someone reading this went to observe a count and can help us.

Quote from: Pimander on September 19, 2014, 04:26:55 PM
She might be cheating.  I can't be sure but sometimes when you do lab work you have to do these long repetitive counts (although it is increasingly done automatically) and you do get bored and kind of go into a trance.  I have done hundreds the wrong way round and had to go back so it is not just about needing to go to school.  Like I say, she might have been cheating but I doubt it.  Don't forget she would have known that she was being filmed at the count too and there was someone sat beside her..

If she was told to cheat, she wouldn't be concerned about the evidence.
Also, she doesn't looked tranced or tired... She looks like she has a mission to complete.

IMO.

Just a further note to state that I've also came across two video's claiming further evidence that have been removed before I could view them...

You may come across some yourselves, and I'm sure we'll be seeing more stuff of the like over the next week or so...

Quote from: Sinny on September 19, 2014, 04:29:27 PM
If she was told to cheat, she wouldn't be concerned about the evidence.

I'll put it another way.  If I was an agent in charge of organising cheating in the election I would think of a more sophisticated way than asking a woman on camera to do it.

It doesn't mean she isn't cheating though but if she is I suggest it isn't part of a sophisticated conspiracy.

I think the postal votes are the easiest to cheat with.  Once you post it you have no way of knowing whether your vote is doctored.  There have also been cases I think where proxy votes (or whatever they are called) have also been used fraudulently in the UK.  It would be interesting to see what the percentages were for postal votes and whether they are the same as the overall. ;)

Following this story...

I've removed one video discovered to be a deliberate hoax, Pi picked up on that one.

Pi, I doubt the fraud actually involved trained agents, or that it was sophisticated, as can be demonstrated in the sky News footage .

haha.

Bunch of stoopid political ponces swaying things in a half hearted manner more likely.

Don't forget that it is in the interests of any group or Nation who wishes to weaken the UK to cast the vote in doubt.  The Russians have already put their oar in.

Quote from: Pimander on September 19, 2014, 05:04:28 PM
Don't forget that it is in the interests of any group or Nation who wishes to weaken the UK to cast the vote in doubt.  The Russians have already put their oar in.

Good, the powers that could be could use taking down a peg or two aha.

I live in Scotland, I left in high spirits after making my vote of "Yes" yesterday.

I was going to make a thread asking what everyone's thoughts on our independence was, but it was abit late.

Id really hoped we would win, so we can finaly make our own decisions.

Someone at work did mention something about fraud, it wasn't till I got home from work that I got a chance to catch up on the news, and get a look at the fraud stuff. I even ended up signing a petition for a recount.

I thought it was a fix myself.

Were now the first country in the world to say "No" to independence, and we cant vote on it again for 15 years I think.

If you were here and heard how the people felt about it you would expect a good outcome.

Gonna keep my eyes peeled on this one. Not even sure what would happened if it was found to be fraud.

I'm pro devolution myself.  I mean for the English regions , Wales and Scotland.  As it stands the Scots MPs vote on English law but the English have no say over how the Scots spend their taxes. 

I'd love it if there was a Parliament in Nottingham and the East Midlands could offer students free grants and no tuition fees to students, free care for the elderly and some of the other stuff Scotland can grant itself.  The people living in England get a bum deal.

You could have a Yorkshire government (Parliament in Leeds), North East (Manchester), North West (Newcastle), West Country (Bristol), East Midlands (Nottingham), West Midlands (Birmingham), East of England (Norwich) South West (London?)....  Power to the regions.  8)

Why does Ireland always get over-looked?

They took us with Guns.

Quote from: Sinny on September 19, 2014, 05:31:30 PM
Why does Ireland always get over-looked?

I'm not sure where I stand on N Ireland.  There is a majority of pro-Unionist Protestants but the Brits should not have been there in the first place?  Another place hopelessly divided by religion.

Hi Mr Pimander:

As to that unanswered question you posed 'over there',
no, invisibility is a cloak that binds us all - or not.   :P

Nothing to be seen here, move along.

(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10005/dont_let_people.jpg)

Quote from: Pimander on September 19, 2014, 05:38:55 PM
I'm not sure where I stand on N Ireland.  There is a majority of pro-Unionist Protestants but the Brits should not have been there in the first place?  Another place hopelessly divided by religion.

You mean Pro - Unionist tards

Oops  :P

Quote from: Sinny on September 19, 2014, 03:13:13 PM
Russia cries foul over Scottish independence vote

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/19/russia-calls-foul-scottish-referendum?CMP=fb_gu

Thats a kick, laughing at Russia crying foul on this....
;D

Quote from: burntheships on September 19, 2014, 07:03:09 PM
Thats a kick, laughing at Russia crying foul on this....
;D

I'd say they are trying to make capital out of the fact that Putin is about the only major world leader almost certain to win reelection without cheating.