Quote from: Linda Brown on February 11, 2012, 10:51:31 PM
I seem to recall that in about late 1949 or early 50s there was a swarm of what some dubbed " Green fireballs" over the Southwestern United States. It cause no small concern amongst the military. A prominent expert named Dr. LaPaz ,I believe, was called in to explain them. He had a difficult time doing that.
Hi Linda,
You are correct.
Interestingly, there were actually quite a few green fireballs seen and reported in 1947, but compared to the amount of silver metallic disks seen that year the percentage is rather small.
However in '48 and '49 green fireballs comprise the vast majority of all sightings.
A secret conference was convened with military brass and top scientists in attendance.
LaPaz was one of the moderators, and even makes a self- deprecating joke about his alarming (to him) 1947 disc sighting reported in the newspapers and resultant fame.
Our old friend Dr. Ed Teller was also in attendance, and jumps up wanting to know what connection to flying saucers these fireballs have, that he thought the speaker just mentioned.
Here then are the now declassified minutes of that meeting and the prologue -
SECRET
DEPARTMENT OF THE AIR FORCE
HEADQUARTERS UNITED STATES AIR FORCE
WASHINGTON
THE INSPECTOR GENERAL USAF
17th DISTRICT OFFICE OF SPECIAL INVESTIGATIONS
KIRTLAND AIR FORCE BASE, NEW MEXICO
DR/MEW/web
12 May 1949
File No: 24-8
SUBJECT: UNKNOWN (Aerial Phenomena)
TO: Director of Special Investigations
Office of The Inspector General USAF
Washington 25, D. C.
1. Reference is made to TRX from this district, OSI 4-26-C, dated 27 April 1949, pertaining to file number 24-8 of this district.
2. On 27 and 28 April 1949, Dr Joseph Kaplan, University of California, Member of the Scientific Advisory Board, USAF, visited this district office and other Governmental and military installations in the area.
The purpose of this visit was to review the reports of investigation and the circumstances surrounding the unidentified aerial phenomena that have been observed in this area during the last five months and to thereby make recommendations as to the advisability of making a scientific investigation of these occurrences.
The investigation of Dr. Kaplan was conducted under orders transmitted to him by Dr Theodore Von Karman, Secretary of the Scientific Advisory Board, USAF.
3. Dr Joseph Kaplan, accompanied by Lt Col Doyle Rees and Captain Melvin E. Neef, of this office, and Dr Lincoln LaPaz, Institute of Meteoritics, University of New Mexico, visited Sandia Base, New Mexico, and Los Alamos, New Mexico.
4. Present at the conference at Sandia Base on the morning of 27 April 1949 were:
Lt Col Herbert L. Crisler, Armed Forces Special Weapons Project
Lt Col Fredrick J. Clark, Armed Forces Special Weapons Project
Mr. Matthew J. Doyle, Armed Forces Special Weapons Project
Comdr. R. E. Mandelkorn, Armed Forced Special Weapons Project
Dr Joseph Kaplan
Dr Lincoln LaPaz
Lt Col Doyle Rees
Captain Melvin E. Neef
S-50422
[pb]
BASIC: Letter, Hq 17th District OSI (IG) USAF, dated 12 May 1949
file number 24-8, subject, "UNKNOWN (Aerial Phenomena)"
a. At this conference Dr Kaplan reviewed developments of interest in the aerial phenomena on the part of the Scientific Advisory Board, following his report to Dr Von Karman concerning information given him early in February by Dr LaPaz, Lt Col Doyle Rees, Major William H. Godsoe, Fourth Army Intelligence Liaison, Sandia Base, and Captain Melvin E. Neef. Additional evidence, concerning not only specific incidents, but relating to the very intense interest felt in the aerial phenomena in the area covered by the represented agencies, was then given by Lt Col Crisler, Lt Col Rees, Commander Mandelkorn and Captain Neef.
At the conclusion of the testimony given by the individuals listed above, Dr Kaplan stated that it was his intention, on the basis of the information so far made available to him, to recommend that a full scale scientific investigation of the aerial phenomena be undertaken as a project set up at the Institute of Meteoritics of the University of New Mexico, the Institute to receive full cooperation from other interested agencies in the area.
Dr Kaplan stressed that this project was to be separated completely from Project "Grudge" (old Project "Sign").
b. Dr LaPaz outlined the program to be undertaken in the event the project suggested by Dr Kaplan was approved by the Scientific Advisory Board.
Dr LaPaz separated the problem into two parts:
first, the collection of observation data; and second, the evaluation of such data.
(1) Collection of data: Under this heading Dr LaPaz recommended that attempts be made to secure systematic visual, photographic, spectrographic and radar observations of the aerial phenomena occurring in the vicinity of at least the following three centers:
first, the Atomic Energy Commission installation at Los Alamos, New Mexico;
second, the Atomic Energy Commission installation at Sandia Base;
and third, the USAF Guided Missile installation at Holloman Air Force Base, Alamogordo, New Mexico.
Lt Col Rees emphasized that provision should be made to secure systematic coverage at the Fourth Army installation at Camp Hood, Texas, where a number of incidents have occurred recently.
Dr LaPaz also recommended that field searches be made after appropriate air reconnaissance, such searches to emply drag-magnets for the collection of any ferro-magnetic materials that may have been thrown down by the fireballs;
meteor detectors in areas where larger, buried fragments were thought to be located and, if possible, systematic search of the earth's surface in well-determined strewn-fields by use of man power from
C-O-P-Y
S-50422
[pb]
BASIC: Letter, Hq 17th District OSI (IG) USAF, dated 12 May 1949,
file number 24-8, subject, "UNKNOWN (Aerial Phenomena)"
military installations.
Dr LaPaz also recommended that, in connection with air search, an attempt be made to collect fine dust and tiny spheres resulting from the volatilization of the fireballs, which conceivable [conceivably] require several days to fall down through the atmosphere to the earth after the appearance of a fireball.
It was his recommendation that the collection of such dust be attempted by use of the collection techniques recently devised by Dr William Crozier of the New Mexico Proving Ground.
(2) Evaluation of Data: In connection with the evaluation of the observational data secured and and any material specimens that may be recovered, Dr LaPaz recommended that arrangements be made permitting Dr Edward Teller of the University of California Group at Los Alamos, Dr William Crozier of the New Mexico Proving Ground, Dr Kent and his ballistics staff at Aberdeen Proving Ground, and Professor Clyde Tombaugh and his associates at White Sands Proving Ground, to act as consultants for the project.
At the conclusion of Dr LaPaz's remark, Commander Mandelkorn recommended that the staff of the Harvard College Observatory Meteor Program installation, near White Sands Proving Ground, also be made available for consultation purposes.
Dr LaPaz agreed that this was desirable, but pointed out that it has been impossible to secure cooperation from Mr Carroll of the Harvard College Observatory Group in the past.
This point was confirmed by Captain Neef, and Commander Mandelkorn then volunteered to insure that in the future there would be no difficulty in securing cooperation from the HCO Meteor Staff.
5. On the afternoon of 27 April 1949, Dr Kaplan studied the files of the 17th District Office of Special Investigations as pertained to the occurrences of aerial phenomena, and was further briefed by
Lt Col Rees, District Commander,
Captain John J. Stahl, Jr,
Deputy District Commander,
Captain Neef, Supervisor of the Security Division,
Special Agent Jack L. Boling and
Dr LaPaz.
No new recommendations arose as a result of this conference, but it was felt that the incidents studied rendered imperative initiation of such a systematic program of investigation as Dr Kaplan had proposed at the Sandia Base conference during the morning.
6. On 28 April 1949 Dr Kaplan, Dr LaPaz, Lt Col Rees and Captain Neef met at the Atomic Energy Commission installation, Los Alamos, New Mexico, with the following:
COPY
S-50422
[pb 4]
BASIC: Letter, Hq 17th District OSI (IG) USAF, dated 12 May 1949,
file number 24-8, subject, "UNKNOWN (Aerial Phenomena)"
Mr. B. O. Wells, Director of Security
Mr. Sidney Newberger, of the Security Office
Mr. John A. Carroll, AEC Security Service
Mr Earle D. Hightower, of the Security Office
Mr Henry R. Hoyt, University of California
Mr Abner Schreiber, AEC Security Service
This conference was held at the request of Dr Kaplan in order that he might ascertain the nature of the observations made by members of the Atomic Energy Commission and the AEC Security Service Inspectors at Los Alamos, and that he might personally determine the degree of concern felt by the Security and scientific personnel at the installation. Dr Kaplan personally interviewed a number of University of California personnel and AEC Security Service Inspectors, who had personally observed anomalous luminous aerial phenomena.
No further recommendations were made at this conference.
Dr Kaplan stated that he would immediately submit his report to Dr Von Karman, setting out his findings and make the recommendations set forth above.
7. Dr Kaplan expressed a great concern, as these occurrences relate to the National Defense of the United States. He advised that he felt that this was of extreme importance and should be investigated scientifically.
DOYLE REES
Lt Col, USAF
-continued-
DEPARTMENT OF THE AIR FORCE
HEADQUARTERS UNITED STATES AIR FORCE
WASHINGTON
THE INSPECTOR GENERAL USAF
17TH DISTRICT OFFICE OF SPECIAL INVESTIGATIONS
KIRTLAND AFB, KIRTLAND FIELD, NEW MEXICO
DR/MEN/web
File No: 24-8 29 March 1949
SUBJECT: UNKNOWN (Aerial Phenomena)
TO: Commanding General
Air Materiel Command
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base
Dayton, Ohio
ATTN: MCIAXO-3
1. Reference is made to previous reports, file number and subject as above, latest dated 23 March 1949.
2. Transmitted herewith are minutes of the meeting between representatives of the Atomic Energy Commission, Armed Forces Special Weapons Project, University of California, University of New Mexico, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Fourth Army and the Office of Special Investigation.
3. There are numerous errors in the minutes, due to the fact that they were transcribed from a recording of the conference. The combination of a jack hammer outside the window and the number of persons speaking made accurate transcription impossible.
4. Investigation is continuing, and further reports will be forwarded as information is developed.
1 Incl
Minutes of Conference (dup)
[handwritten] 1 copy withdrawn
MCIAXO-3 [illegible] /s/
DOYLE REES
Lt Col, USAF
District Commander
UNCLASSIFIED
CONFERENCE
ON
AERIAL PHENOMENA
Held at 1300, 16 February 1949, in conference room P-162, Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory, Los Alamos, New Mexico. Present:
4th Army: Major Winn
(no record founD)
Major Godsoe
"AT CLOVIS, NEW MEXICO
9. Acting on information relayed to the OSI
from a Major GODSOE? of Sandia Base"
Captain Neef: -
"Statements from Lieut. CLIFFORD E. STRANG, AESS (oral), and Mr. GEORGE S. SKIPPER (written) Physical Security Section, Los Alamos, were obtained by Special Agent NEEF and Dr. LA PAZ on 29 December 1948. STRANG and SKIPPER reported concurrent sighting of the phenomena observed by TRUETT and WILSON."
"8 December 1948 18:33
Las Vegas, New Mexico, USA
OSI agents in T-7 observed intense green light at 13,000'
Two AFOSI Special Agents, Captains. Melvin E. Neef and John J. Stahl, Jr, in investigation of green fireballs in a Beech 1-7, were heading east at 90° and 190 mph at 11,500 foot altitude and 5,000 feet above ground. They were about 20 miles east of Las Vegas. They saw a green fireball 30° to the left of their flight path, to the ENE at 60° azimuth, at an estimated 2,000 feet above their flight altitude of 13,500 feet. It shot past them, maintaining almost level flight, unti, to the WSW at 240° azimuth, it seemed to burn out. It dropped suddenly, emitting reddish-orange glowing fragments which lasted less than one second. A later aerial search of the ground site in daylight found nothing.
AFOSI Summary:
Time: 1833; Number of Observers: 2; Reliability: very good; Area: Las Vegas, New Mexico; Direction: east-north-east to WSW; Altitude: 13,500'; Course: horizontal; Color: bright green; Train: Yes; Duration: two seconds; Sound: none; Size: larger than a flare; Speed: rapid rate of speed; Disappearance: faded out.
One green-orange ball was observed by two witnesses for two seconds (Stahl, John J; Neef, Melvin E).
Ruppelt's account:
Within a few more days the fireballs were appearing almost nightly.
The intelligence officers from Kirtland decided that maybe they could get a good look at one of them, so on the night of December 8 two officers took off in an airplane just before dark and began to cruise around north of Albuquerque.
They had a carefully worked out plan where each man would observe certain details if they saw one of the green fireballs. At 6:33P.M. they saw one. This is their report:
At 6:33P.M. while flying at an indicated altitude of 11,500 feet, a strange phenomenon was observed. Exact position of the aircraft at time of the observation was 20 miles east of the Las Vegas, N.M., radio range station.
The aircraft was on a compass course of 90 degrees. Capt. ------ was pilot and I was acting as copilot. I first observed the object and a split second later the pilot saw it. It was 2,000 feet higher than the plane, and was approaching the plane at a rapid rate of speed from 30 degrees to the left of our course.
The object was similar in appearance to a burning green flare, the kind that is commonly used in the Air Force.
However, the light was much more intense and the object appeared considerably larger than a normal flare. The trajectory of the object, when first sighted, was almost flat and parallel to the earth.
The phenomenon lasted about 2 seconds. At the end of this time the object seemed to begin to burn out and the trajectory then dropped off rapidly.
The phenomenon was of such intensity as to be visible from the very moment it ignited.
Back at Wright-Patterson AFB, ATIC was getting a blow-by-blow account of the fireball activity but they were taking no direct part in the investigation.
Their main interest was to review all incoming UFO reports and see if the green fireball reports were actually unique to the Albuquerque area. They were.
Although a good many UFO reports were coming in from other parts of the U.S., none fit the description of the green fireballs.
All during December 1948 and January 1949 the green fireballs continued to invade the New Mexico skies. Everyone, including the intelligence officers at Kirtland AFB, Air Defense Command people, Dr. La Paz, and some of the most distinguished scientists at Los Alamos had seen at least one.
In mid-February 1949 a conference was called at Los Alamos to determine what should be done to further pursue the investigation.
The Air Force, Project Sign, the intelligence people at Kirtland, and other interested parties had done everything they could think of and still no answer.
Such notable scientists as Dr. Joseph Kaplan, a world-renowned authority on the physics of the upper atmosphere, Dr. Edward Teller, of H-bomb fame, and of course Dr. La Paz, attended, along with a lot of military brass and scientists from Los Alamos.
This was one conference where there was no need to discuss whether or not this special type of UFO, the green fireball, existed.
Almost everyone at the meeting had seen one. The purpose of the conference was to decide whether the fireballs were natural or man-made and how to find out more about them.
As happens in any conference, opinions were divided.
Some people thought the green fireballs were natural fireballs.
The proponents of the natural meteor, or meteorite, theory presented facts that they had dug out of astronomical journals.
Greenish-colored meteors, although not common, had been observed on many occasions.
The flat trajectory, which seemed to be so important in proving that the green fireballs were extraterrestrial, was also nothing new. When viewed from certain angles, a meteor can appear to have a flat trajectory.
The reason that so many had been seen during December of 1948 and January of 1949 was that the weather had been unusually clear all over the Southwest during this period.
Dr. La Paz led the group who believed that the green fireballs were not meteors or meteorites. His argument was derived from the facts that he had gained after many days of research and working with Air Force intelligence teams.
He stuck to the points that
(1) the trajectory was too flat,
(2) the color was too green, and
(3) he couldn't locate any fragments even though he had found the spots where they should have hit the earth if they were meteorites.
People who were at that meeting have told me that Dr. La Paz's theory was very interesting and that each point was carefully considered.
But evidently it wasn't conclusive enough because when the conference broke up, after two days, it was decided that the green fireballs were a natural phenomenon of some kind.
It was recommended that this phase of the UFO investigation be given to the Air Force's Cambridge Research Laboratory, since it is the function of this group to study natural phenomena, and that Cambridge set up a project to attempt to photograph the green fireballs and measure their speed, altitude, and size."
AFSWP: Commander Mandelkorn
Comdr. R. E. Mandelkorn, Armed Forced Special Weapons Project
University of New Mexico: Dr. LaPaz
FBI: Mr. Maxwell
USAEC, SFOO: Mr. Morgan
Mr. Newburger
University of California: Dr. Bradbury
Dr. Holloway
Mr. Hoyt
Dr. Manley
Dr. Raines
Dr. Teller
Mr. Newburger opened the conference and stated that the subject of Aerial Phenomena was classified Secret within the meaning of AR 380-5 and comparable appropriate regulations of the Navy and Air Forces, and that all personnel at this meeting were properly cleared.
Mr. Newburger then introduced Captain Neef, who briefly outlined the purpose of this meeting.
Dr. LaPaz: We have a photograph which might be some liters of departure from horizontal. The trajectory was traverse at, I am inclined to believe, constant angular velocity. Just before the end of the path there was the very slightest drooping of the path, that is the green fireball broke into fragments, still bright green.
Dr. Teller: And all this time the intensity was approximately constant?
Dr. LaPaz: All the time, as far as I could determine. The eye, of course, is admittedly a very crude photographer.
Dr. Teller: How long did the phenomenon last?
Major Godsoe: The basic purpose of this meeting is: we want you to find a meteor!
Mr. Newburger: Have the military - anyone from the National Defense establishment - given us anything? Sent out any conjectures about this thing?
Major Godsoe: No, most of the military authorities think we are crackpots; that is, except for the Army Air Force, which is taking an active interest in details.
Mr. Newburger: The Air Force does have the primary interest in this gadget?
Major Godsoe: Yes, the Air Force is the gathering, reporting agency for this phenomenon.
Comdr. Mandelkorn: I'd like to remove that temporary statement about the Armed Forces Special Weapons Project; we aren't laughing....(record blank for minute or two)
Dr. Bradbury: None of us are experts in this field, so we essentially have to believe what we are told. I suppose if you try to look for logical explanations, there are probably some.
Dr. LaPaz: I would like to ask one question here - unless you feed power into a body moving into a horizontal path, can it preserve essentially a horizontal trajectory? A plane does it; meteorites don't do it; short curves as the energy falls off. This thing apparently ignores air resistance and gravity and goes blissfully on its way......
Dr. Teller: I have the feeling that it is....either a discovery in physics, psychology or.....
Dr. LaPaz: I thought that psychological element would come in here!
Dr. Teller: Here is a slightly irrelevant question - you brought in the flying discs. What is the connection?
Dr. LaPaz: I didn't bring in the flying discs.
Mr. Newburger: I brought in the matter of the flying discs because the Air Force, as I understand, now have classed the flying discs and these fireballs into one category.
Captain Neef: The only indication we have is a letter from MAC in Washington Saturday where they indicated the old project Sign is now project Grudge, which includes the phenomena observed in New Mexico. They knew of this meeting and were going to send a representative.
Dr. LaPaz: I just asked Mr. Hoyt a moment ago how he would compare the brillance of this object with that of an aircraft flare. He said they were of comparable magnitude. I think that was definitely ruled out...
Dr. Teller: I understood that a reasonable explanation of the flying discs - and I suppose that it is generally known - is that they are meteorological balloons. .... I understand that in quite a number of cases there have been very close directions established..... I must say that from what you here said, it certainly sounds like everything else but meteors. The thing that impresses me is your evidence of the horizontal flight. Meteors do not usually come in like that...
(mumbled talk between Drs. Bradbury and Teller)
Captain Neef: ....Change of direction such that we haven't been able to follow it up yet. One of our men was returning Sunday night when our tower operator saw this object to the Southwest from Kirtland Field and....Arizona reported it was Southeast from them. From the Kirtland tower it was a bronze color. The time checks, but from.... Arizona it was green until it turned straight down and veered going.....
Dr. Bradbury: Well, we're not coming up with any bright ideas for you very fast.
Mr. Newburger: No, but as long as we have the problem presented to you, maybe by thinking on this, you will come up with an idea. ..... Of course, you know our entire connection which started with Madelyn Gwynn Merchant back in 1946!
Dr. LaPaz: Except for the flying discs, nothing that you could say would cause me greater embarrassment! I have actually had communications from Madelyn myself.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UNCLASSIFIED
THE SCIENTIFIC ADVISORY BOARD
TO THE CHIEF OF STAFF, UNITED STATES AIR FORCE
CONFERENCE
3 November, 1949
At the Pentagon, Washington, D.C.
Dr. Theodore von Karman, Chairman
ATTENDANCE Dr. Hugh L. Dryden, Deputy Chairman
Maj. General D.L. Putt, Military Director
Dr. Allen V. Astin
Dr. Edward J. Baldes
Dr. Walter Bartky
Mr. Don R. Berlin
Dr. William Ballay
Dr. Norris E. Bradbury
Mr. Allen F. Donovan
Dr. James H. Doolittle
Dr. Charles S. Draper
Dr. Ralph E. Gibson
Dr. Ross Gunn
Dr. William R. Hawthorne
Dr. Michael J. Hoff
Dr. Henry G. Houghton
Dr. Andrew Malitinsky
Prof. Joseph Kaplan
Mr. Robert R. Kent
Dr. W. Randolph Lovelace, II
Prof. John R. Markham
Dr. James B. Macelwane, S.J.
Dr. George A. Morton
Dr. Carl F. J. Overhage
Dr. Richard W. Porter
Dr. Norman F. Ramsey
Dr. Louis H. Ridenour
(Cont'd)
[ - Blacked Out - ]
UNCLASSIFIED
[ - Blacked Out - ]
UNCLASSIFIED
Dr. Howard P. Robertson
Mr. L. Eugene Root
Dean Ralph A. Sawyer
Dr. William R. Sears
Prof. C. Richard Soderberg
Dr. Hans Speier
Dr. N. Guyford Stever
Dr. Homer J. Stewart
Dr. William J. Sweeney
Dr. Louis T. E. Thompson
Dr. George E. Valley, Jr.
Dr. Shields Warren
Prof. Raymond J. Woodrow
Dr. Lloyd A. Young
Colonel R. R. Barden
Colonel Frank R. Cook
Colonel Benjamin G. Holzman
Major Carl Arnold
Major T. F. Walkowicz, Secretary
[ - Blacked Out - ]
UNCLASSIFIED
[ - Blacked Out - ]
UNCLASSIFIED
[Previous subject discussed: A report by Dr. Louis H. Ridenour on the development of a "security attachment" to improve "cryptographic security" for U.S. Air Force IFF (Identification, Friend or Foe) systems.]
DR. VON KARMAN: Thank you very much, Dr. Ridenour. Are there any questions or remarks concerning this subject? Well, then we will proceed to the next point. The next point is a special report by Professor Joseph Kaplan. I hope it is full of surprise and tension.
PROF. KAPLAN: I think it is full of surprise, but I hope it isn't full of tension. I hesitate, in fact, to take too much of the time of the Board, after the very important briefing of yesterday, and the Ridenour report, to call your attention to this problem in which I have been involved for the last year and one-half or so.
I might go to the heart of the problem immediately. It all has to do with a series of incidents that I first heard of
55
[ - Blacked Out - ]
UNCLASSIFIED
[ - Blacked Out - ]
UNCLASSIFIED
in February 1948--incidents that are laid essentially, or reportedly almost entirely, in the West Texas or New Mexico area.
For this reason, and because of the sensitivity of that area -- the presence there of much of our atomic energy activities at the Air Base, etc., -- the material has been classified SECRET. I think it is the only reason that perhaps it should be classified SECRET. It has to do with the observations of some 46 incidents which have been picked out as real -- the observation of what we are referring to as "green fireballs."
I should apologize to Dr. Valley, who I think is the Committee's expert in the field of flying discs and things of that sort, but I got into this entirely accidentally and sometimes I have been very sorry that I ever did.
A brief history of the affair is this: I was at the University of New Mexico to give their annual Sigma Psi lecture when Professor Lincoln LaPaz, Director, Institute of Meteoritics, University of New Mexico, told me about these observations. Like everyone else, he hears about flying discs and things of that sort. I was skeptical, and, as I mentioned, sorry that I ever showed up at the University of New Mexico at that time. But after talking to the people involved, I realized there was a real problem there.
56
[ - Blacked Out - ]
UNCLASSIFIED
[ - Blacked Out - ]
UNCLASSIFIED
I called Dr. von Karman's attention to it. He, in turn, called General Cabell's attention to the problem, the Director of Intelligence, and he requested I continue looking into the problem.
As far as the Board is concerned, and the Office of Air Intelligence, our part of this problem has been completed in that the situation is now under control. At least proposed studies of these things have been delegated to the Geophysical Research Directorate, a group that studies upper atmospheric and other atmospheric phenomena. They are taking steps to really make some scientific studies of these things.
I think I should acknowledge help from a great many people, Much of this has been done voluntarily. Dr. Bradbury has been extremely kind in participating in this and making available many of his people, such people as Dr. Gamow, Dr. Teller, Dr. Reines, and other have been concerned with this and are as puzzled as I am.
I might mention the way we got it into the hands of the Geophysical Directorate. I think essentially I finally stuck my neck out and proposed an explanation for these so-called "green fireballs" -- an explanation which sounded reasonable enough to pass it on to the Geophysical people.
Dr. LaPaz has been working on this informally; he has had no research contract or appointment involved in this.
57
[ - Blacked Out - ]
UNCLASSIFIED
[ - Blacked Out - ]
UNCLASSIFIED
The possibilities of rumor and panic that might develop in that area if loose talk about these green fireballs develops, I think, are great. I think it is to the credit of Dr. LaPaz and Colonel Rees of the Office of Security Investigation at Kirtland, who has been doing a lot of work on his own time, that the security has been beautifully kept. As far as I know, there are absolutely no incidents or too much talk about this entire affair.
Now, the first question that I can answer is: is this a real phenomena, these green fireballs?
I feel that it is perhaps a new kind of meteor that has been observed, or a new atmospheric phenomena, but there are difficulties associated with it. At least, I am convinced that it is real and will shortly be in good hands, we have answered General Cabell's question by saying that it is a real phenomena and should be photographed.
Dr. Bradbury is familiar with this as well as I am and perhaps would make a comment or two.
DR. VON KARMAN: Thank you very much, Professor Kaplan.
Who continues this work?
PROF. KAPLAN: The continuation of this work? My report was sent to General Cabell through Colonel Holzman. He, in turn, sent it to the Geophysical Directorate at the Cambridge Research Laboratory, and they are now setting up the necessary observational program to obtain pictures and spectra. Dr. Bradbury has agreed to cooperate with that program.
PROF. KAPLAN: Yes. Well, as I indicated, I didn't want to take too much time of the Board, but this high selectivity of direction seems to indicate that some group was trying to pinpoint Los Alamos with a new sort of weapon for that general area. That disappeared and the horizontal path. There are more of them coming in more nearly to the vertical. I think the problem should be studied, and that is now under way. It may, after our knowledge of meteoritics, increase our security in that area--I mean the whole problem of search, etc.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When the initial wave of "flying saucer" sightings in the US began in late spring 1947, some parallels with the Ghost Rocket events were quickly noted. As early as July 13 1947, well-known investigative reporters Joseph and Stewart Alsop published an extraordinary column in the Washington Post (comparing them to swedens ghost rockets)
"Flying saucers," the Alsops argued, were proof of the need for vast expenditures on an air defense system for the US (even if such disc-shaped mystery objects did not exist) because they made crystal clear the fact that the Pentagon was unable to monitor the nation's skies with a thoroughness adequate to prevent surprise attack by the kinds of advanced weapons that were sure to appear in the near future.
1. Background
In accordance with instructions contained in a classified letter from Chief of Staff, USAF to CG, AMC, subject "Light Phenomena", on 14 September 1949, Lt. Col. Frederic C.E. Oder of CRD attended a conference at Los Alamos, 14 October 19449 on the subject of "Green Fireballs" observed in the Northern New Mexico area. Since the phenomena had been observed only in this area and only since 1947, it had caused considerable concern among security agencies in the area. It was the conclusion of the scientists present at this meeting that the information available was not sufficiently quantitative Instrumental observations - photographic, triangulation, and spectroscopic were considered essential.
Dr. L. La Paz of the Department of Meteoritics of Univ. of New Mexico was present at the Los Alamos meeting and subsequently was invited to submit proposals for studying this phenomena under GRD sponsorship. On 2 February 1950, Dr. La Paz advised that due to difficulties with academic arrangements, he was unable to undertake this study.
HEADQUARTERS UNITED STATES AIR FORCE
WASHINGTON
File No: (24-8)-28 25 May 1950
SUBJECT: Summary of Observations of Aerial Phenomena in the New
Mexico Area, December 1948 - May 1950
TO: Brigadier General Joseph F. Carroll
Director of Special Investigations
Headquarters USAF
Washington 25, D. C.
1. In a liaison meeting woth other military and government intel-
ligence and investigative agencies in December 1948, it was determined
that the frequency of unexplained aerial phenomena in the New Mexico area
was such that an organized plan of reporting these observations should be
undertaken. The organization and physical location of units of this Dis-
trict were most suitable for collecting these data, therefore, since
December 1948, this District has assumed the responsibility for collect-
ing and reporting basic information with respect to aerial phenomena
occurring in this general area. These reports have been distributed to
the Air Material Command, USAF, in accordance with Air Intelligence
Requirements Ho. 4, and to other interested military and government
agencies.
On 17 February 1949 and again on 14 October 1949, conferences
were held at Los Alamos, New Mexico, for the purpose of discussing the
green fireball phenomena. Representatives of the following organizations
were present at these meetings: Fourth Army, Armed Forces Special Wea-
pons Project, University of New Mexico, Federal Bureau of Investigation,
U. S. Atomic Energy Commission, University of California, U. S. Air Force
Scientific Advisory Board, Geophysical Research Division Air Material
Command USAF, and the Office of Special Investigations (IG) USAF. A
logical explanation was not preffered with respect to the origin of the
green fireballs. It was, however, generally concluded that the pheno-
mena existed and that they should be studied scientifically until these
occurrences have been satisfactorily explained. Further, that the
continued occurrence of unexplained phenomena of this nature in the
vicinity of sensitive installations is cause for concern.
5. The Geophysical Research Division, Air Material Command,
Cambridge, Massachusetts, has recently let a contract to Land-Air, Inc.,
Holloman AFB, Alamogordo, New Mexico, for a limited scientific study of
green fireballs. The results of this scientific approach to the problem
will undoubtedly be of great value in determining the origin of these
phenomena.
6. This summary of observations of aerial phenomena has been
prepared for the purpose of re-emphasizing and reiterating the fact
that phenomena have continously occurred in the New Mexico skies
during the past 18 months and are continuing to occur, and, secondly,
that these phenomena are occurring in the vicinity of sensitive mili-
tary government installations.
{ signed }
4 Incls DOYLE REES
1. Summary of Sightings Lt Colonel, USAF
2. Photo of Sighting No. 175 District Commander
w/comments
3. Ltr fr Dr. LaPaz to Lt Col
Rees, dtd 23 May 50
4. Graph indicating maximums
Subj: Summary of Observations of Aerial Phenomena in
the New Mexico Area, December 1948 - May 1950 25 May 1950
DISTRIBUTION:
6 cys, Director of Special Investigations, Headquarters USAF
1 cy, CG, Air Material Command, Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio
ATTN: Director of Technical Intelligence
1 cy, CG, Special Weapons Command, Kirtland AFB, New Mexico
1 cy, CG, Armed Services Special Weapons Project, Sandia Base,
New Mexico. ATTN: J-2
1 cy, CG, Headquarters, Fourth Army, Ft. Sam Houston, Texas
ATTN: AC of S, G-2
1 cy, CO, Holloman AFB, New Mexico
1 cy, C0, Air Force Cambridge Research Laboratories, Cambridge, Mass.
1 cy, Director, Security Division, U. S. Atomic Energy Commission,
Los Alamos, New Mexico. ATTN: Mr. D. O. Wells
1 cy, Federal Bureau of Investigation, El Paso, Texas
1 cy, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Albuquerque, New Mexico
1 cy, Air Force Scientific Advisory Board, Pentagon Building
ATTN: Dr. Joseph Kaplan.
1 cy, Research and Development Board, Pentagon Building
ATTN: Dr. H. E. Landsberg, Executive Director, Committee on
Geophysics and Geography
1 cy, File
What a wonderful followup! You are a master at this!!!
Rose and I would note one name in all those listed.... That of a gentleman named Ross Gunn. His name nearly disappears but his attendence there is vitally important. We are talking NAVY here folks. He pulled some weight at the time. Of course the blanks still interest me. Alot of blanks still left even here in 2012.... which usually means that there is an ONGOING project that still requires protection.
Dad had taken his family to the territory of Hawaii in November of 47 and then for very long periods of time afterwards.... disappeared from our lives. We were there for five years...and we did not have him with us.... Without an explanation... EVER. But the time he had to leave a loved ones side.... when his mother was dying... was an action that earned him complete distain from some of his relatives in Zanesville Ohio.... and of course he was never able to say why it was that he left.But I am completely convinced that he had good reasonm and someday we will know. Linda
Always happy to contribute where I can Linda. ;)
And here is what caused all the hub bub -
CONFIDENTIAL
HEADQUARTERS UNITED STATES AIR FORCE
THE INSPECTOR GENERAL
OFFICE OF SPECIAL INVESTIGATIONS
REPORT OF INVESTIGATION
TITLE: Aerial Phenomena
FILE NO. 24-8
DATE: 11 February 1949
REPORT MADE BY: PAUL L. ###
REPORT MADE AT: DO #17, Kirtland AFB
PERIOD: 31 Jan, 1-5 Feb 1949
OFFICE OF ORIGIN: DO #17, Kirtland AFB
STATUS: RNC? [Reviewed Not Closed?]
CHARACTER: Special Inquiry
REFERENCE: Telephone call from Hq 17th Dist OSI, Kirtland AFB, on 31 Jan 49
SYNOPSIS:
Acting on telephonic instructions received from DO #17, Kirtland AFB, Kirtland Field, New Mexico, on 31 January 1949, in which Mr. [...] JR., Administrative Supervisor, advised that a peculiar light or aerial phenomena had been observed at 1755 hours, 30 January 1949, in the vicinity of Walker AFB, Roswell, New Mexico, and that Sgt [...], a tower control operator of Walker AFB, be contacted for information.
The following action was taken: A check with Police Department, Sheriff's Office, Municipal Airport, the Continental, Pioneer, and Charter Service Air Lines In Roswell, New Mexico, was made to determine if any of these agencies had received any reports pertaining to this phenomena [sic]. Results negative.
Night persons who had witnessed this aerial phenomena were interviewed at Walker AFB, and grid coordinates with an engineer's transit reading of azimuths and elevations was taken at points of observation on Walker AFB.
An almost house-to-house search was conducted East of Roswell by OSI and Dr. LINCOLN LA PAZ of the University of New Mexico for all possible witnesses.
This search extended throughout southeast New Mexico and West Texas. The search for additional information extended North of Roswell to Clovis, New Mexico, and South of Roswell to a point about fifteen miles South of Artesia, New Mexico.
In Artesia, this questioning elicited the information that about the approximate date of the appearance of this meteor (interviewees could not recall the exact date), a noise resembling somewhat the sound made by the robot bombs utilized by Germany against England
DISTRIBUTION:
CO, DO #17 (Action Copy) 4
OSI Hq 2
File 2
ACTION COPY FORWARDED TO:
CO, DO #17, Kirtland AFB
APPROVED:
DOYLE REES
Lt. Colonel, USAF
DISTRICT COMMANDER
[pb 2]
in 1944 was heard by two men.
An aerial and ground search conducted in the vicinity of Lamesa, Texas, for physical evidence was negative. A report from a ten year old boy in Amherst, Texas, reporting a sound accompaniment with the aerial phenomena, was obtained.
DETAILS:
1. A telephone call from Mr. CHARLES ?, Administrative Supervisor, DO #17, Kirtland AFB, Kirtland Field, New Mexico, on the morning of 31 January 1949, instructed this office to ascertain the azimuth, elevation, and direction of a peculiar light observed near Walker AFB at 1755 hours, 30 January 1949, by Sgt [...].
2. This is a joint report of Special Agents JACK B. WILLIAMS, LEWIS S. RICKETT, and the writer.
AT ROSWELL, NEW MEXICO
3. The Municipal Airport, Sheriff's Office, and Police Department of Roswell, New Mexico, were contacted on 31 January 1949 and advised that no report had been received in their agencies of an aerial phenomena the preceding day.
The Continental, Pioneer, and Charter Service Air Lines states on this date that no flares had been utilized by any of their personnel in or near Roswell.
AT WALKER AFB, ROSWELL, NEW MEXICO
4. Sgt [...], AF [...] (M?OS [...]); Sgt [...], AF [...] (MOS [...]); S Sgt [...], AF [...] (MOS [...]); Cpl [...], AF [...] (MOS [...]); and Pvt [...], AF [...] (MOS [...]), all of 1900-8 AASS Detachment, Walker AFB, Sgt [...], [...] (MOS [...]); and [...], Special Agents of Office of Special Investigations, Walker AFB, Roswell, New Mexico, were interviewed on 31 January 1949 and the following facts obtained:
On 30 January 1949 at 1755 hours, a blue-green light resembling a flare was observed travelling on a horizontal line. This light came out of the North headed South at an estimated altitude of 2,000 feet, moving slowly, and disappeared in the vicinity of SE Walker Air Force Base.
To some observers, this phenomena disappeared in its entirety while other statements mentioned a disappearance as a disintegration into a shower of smaller lighted fragments such as a shower of sparks.
The only sound accompanying this object was heard by Sgt [...] who described it as a high pitched whining noise similar to that of a blowtorch.
All of these observers sighted this light from a position West of it while facing East.
5. Obtaining the services of an engineer's transit, the following information was secured by taking a reading from points of observation:
First observed at 52 deg magnetic.
Last observed at 87 [one-half] deg magnetic.
Elevation of 22 deg.
[pb 3]
The following grid coordinates were secured:
a. Center of Walker AFB: 104 deg 31 [one-half] min W
33 deg 18 min N
b. Control Tower (reading from center of WAFB): 75 min N
3470 min W
c. Tennis Courts: 1125 min N
5630 min W
d. Base Theater: 1925 min N
5060 min W
6. An interview with Cpl [...], AF [...] (MOS [...]), 1900-4 AACS Detachment, Walker AFB, Roswell, New Mexico, on 1 February 1949, elicited information identical with the other observers.
7. On 2 February 1949, an attempt was made to contact any person who might have observed this phenomena from the East or facing West. This questioning continued for about forty (40) miles East of Roswell with negative results.
8. Special Agent RICKETT continued this search throughout Southeast New Mexico and West Texas from 1400 hours, 2 February 1949, to 2400 hours, 5 February 1949, in the company of Dr. LINCOLN LA PAZ of the University of New Mexico.
All information obtained during this part of the investigation was retained by Dr. LA PAZ and will be incorporated into his report to OSI.
AT CLOVIS, NEW MEXICO
9. Acting on information relayed to the OSI from a Major GODSOE? of Sandia Base
stating the Sheriff at Clovis, New Mexico, had information pertaining to a meteor landing on a farm in the vicinity of Clovis, an attempt on 2 and 3 February 1949 to locate this farm in Clovis met with negative results.
Questioning of persons a law enforcement agencies enroute to and in Clovis did not produce any information of a pertinent nature. The Sheriff at Clovis stated that he knew nothing of the meteor.
AT ROSWELL AND ARTESIA, NEW MEXICO
10. On 4 February 1949, a search was conducted South of Roswell to a distance of approximately fifteen (15) miles South of Artesia, New Mexico, to determine if possible the extent of observation of this aerial phenomena.
Mrs. [...], Artesia, New Mexico, was questioned as to a light observed by her, and it was ascertained that she had witnessed this phenomena.
A noise resembling a racing motorcycle was heard in the vicinity of Artesia on or about 30 January 1949 about 0530 hours. The people hearing this noise stated its duration was about three (3) minutes. Mr. [...] and [...] Allen Oil Company, East Main Street, Artesia, New Mexico, stated they had been separated by a distance of about three (3) mmiles at this time and both heard the noise.
No directions, altitude, or speed was obtained because of the difficulties of locating a sound in the air. Both observers stated
[pb 4]
positively that the sound was not emanating from an aircraft.
When questioned as to the sound, [...] revealed the fact that as a soldier in the European Theater of Operations during the war, he had observed and heard many robot bombs (buzz bombs).
According to [...], the sound he heard was somewhat like the noise produced by these bombs.
AT AMHERST, TEXAS
11. In accordance with instructions from Dr. LA PAZ on 5 February 1949, in Lamesa, Texas, a trip was made to Amherst, Texas, for the purpose of interviewing Master [...] the ten (10) year old son of Mr. [...] President of the First National Bank, Amherst, Texas.
An interview with this family confirmed the fact that young [...] had witnessed the aerial phenomena, with the added information that he had heard a rumbling noise emanating from it.
The best description offered by this ten year old boy was its similarity to a short roll of thunder. No other member of this family had seen or heard anything out of the ordinary; this is explained by the fact that the boy was playing outdoors with his dog. No mention was made by [...] as to any peculiar actions on the part of this dog during the observation. [...]'s position when he observed this light was facing South.
A highway running North and South is located about a mile and a half to the West of his home. No railroad was observed South of his home.
Approximately thirty (30) other persons questioned in this small town had not seen or heard anything with the exception of Miss [...], Clerk, First National Bank, Amherst, Texas. Miss [...] stated that she was in a car heading South about twenty (20) miles North of Amherst on Highway 51 when she observed this red and blue light. Its direction at this time was South of her.
An interrogation of Miss [...] elicited information identical to the description of the phenomena. Mr. and Mrs. [...] (parents of Miss [...]) were in the car, and also witnessed the light. No sound was heard by these persons.
– RNC? [Reviewed Not Closed?] –
Sometimes its important to read "between the lines"
Note that there is a blank mentioned.........and then the report continues......
Previous subject discussed: A report by Dr. Louis H. Ridenour on the development of a "security attachment" to improve "cryptographic security" for U.S. Air Force IFF (Identification, Friend or Foe) systems.]
Linda
And here is the 1947 sighting that Dr. La Paz joked about with embarrassment in the above conference -
July 10 1947 - Fort Sumner, New Mexico - 4:47 p.m.
Astronomers Dr. Lincoln La Paz, Director of the Institute of Meteoritics and Department Head of the Astronomy Department at the University of New Mexico, and Clyde Tombaugh, discoverer of the planet Pluto, and other family members watched a luminous 300-foot wide saucer ascend at 600 mph near Fort Sumner, New Mexico heading toward the north.
(Ted Bloecher, Report on the UFO Wave of 1947, case 819; Loren Gross, UFOs: A History. 1947, p. 58).
---------------------------------------------------------
July 10 1947 - Clovis, New Mexico - 4:47 P.M. MST
As the sightings continued one of the top US astronomers from the Department of Meteoritics at the University of New Mexico, Dr. Lincoln La Paz, his wife, and two teenaged daughters, reported seeing an elliptical object very high among the clouds.
The incident occurred at 4:47 P.M. MST while they were driving from Clovis to Clines Corner, New Mexico.
La Paz estimated, with the aid of a pencil held at arm's length, that the object was 20 to 30 miles from his position, ellipsoidal and rigid, 160 feet long and 65 feet thick, traveling 120 to 180 miles per hour horizontally and 600 to 900 miles per hour vertically.
It appeared silent and "self-luminous" against the dark clouds with a sort of "wobbling motion" and no exhaust or vapor trail could be observed.
It remained in view for at least 30 seconds. La Paz stated that , the ascent he saw the object make "thoroughly convinced me that we were "dealing with an absolutely novel airborne device."
(H.B. Darrach, Jr. and Bob Ginna, "Have We Visitors From Space?" Life, 7 April 1952, p. 83.)
The reason I highlighted the name Special Agent Rickett in the above document is because unless there were 2 Special Agent Rickett's assigned in Roswell in the late 40's then indeed it is the same Agent Rickett who accompanied Major Jessie Marcell to the debris field on Brazel's ranch.
I noticed that A51 and wondered. Probably the same man. I have a feeling he was a busy fella.
in that same report from above this is a quote from LaPaz.
It remained in view for at least 30 seconds. La Paz stated that , the ascent he saw the object make "thoroughly convinced me that we were "dealing with an absolutely novel airborne device."
No kidding. But not necessarily extra-terrestrial.
For those of you may have read the book that Jan and I wrote about my experiences with Dad you may get a charge out of this quote from the above message by A51Watcher.
It appeared silent and "self-luminous" against the dark clouds with a sort of "wobbling motion" and no exhaust or vapor trail could be observed.
In 1957 Dad happened to hand me a large group of NICAP special reports from their "investigators in the field." Dad had left NICAP by then and we were living in Florida. He was busy writing patent applications that summer but he was also keeping a very tight watch on those reports of " Flying Saucers" around the world. Rose Hacket ( once his personal secretary) was still working for NICAP but the organization had been taken over by a strong contingent of CIA interests...Admiral Hillenkoeter was the head of NICAP then I believe.
I had been helping Dad type up his patent applictions. Even though I was only 11 at the time I took my responsibilities very seriously. When Dad got on a roll sometimes it took two typists just to keep up with him. When he got this big packet of reports from Rose he and Mother were busy with another important patent so he handed me this thick packet.... Hundreds of reports.... and simply said...." Just pull out the things that "wobble" Sweetie.... they are "ours"......He never explained what he meant and by that time I knew better than to ask questions.
So was this earlier ship having the same kind of control problems that Dad was watching for in 1957?.... filtered back from reports of discs all over the world at the time.?Think on that a moment folks. Begins to make Zorgons ideas about a Space Fleet not all that fantastic, doesn't it? The scope of it must have been fantastic.
Linda
PS I think that we have strayed pretty substantially from the original rail gun topic. Do you want to start a more recognizable thread. I know that much was happening regarding the " flying saucer flaps in the early fifties." and it might be interesting to follow it slowly. Im with you but starting tomorrow, OK? I am folding my tent tonight!
Thanks! I think that we have uncovered some VERY important new clues. Linda
Hi Linda, How about Project Twinkle Dec. 20th 1949.
Project TwinkleFinally, on December 20 after nearly a year of foot-dragging, the instrument observation program was approved and Project Twinkle was born. The first instrument post (consisting of two officers) was established at Holloman Air Force Base in February 1950. Only one other instrument post was ever set up. LaPaz criticized Project Twinkle as inadequate, arguing the green fireballs were worthy of "intensive, systematic investigation". Twinkle did manage to record a few events, but the data collected were said to be incomplete in the final Twinkle report. Besides, it was stated, no funding had been provided for follow-up data analysis. In addition, the fireball activity near the observation posts seemed to virtually disappear,[citation needed] as noted in a report from September: "It may be considered significant that fireballs have ceased abruptly as soon as a systematic watch was set up."
Over the objections of LaPaz and others, the final report on Project Twinkle (see external links) concluded the green lights were probably a natural event, maybe sunspot activity or an unusual concentration of meteors. The report stated, "There has been no indication that even the somewhat strange observations often called 'Green Fireballs' are anything but natural phenomena." Twinkle was discontinued in December 1951.
Despite efforts of the final Twinkle report to downplay the fireballs and other studied UFO phenomena as natural, a follow-up report in February 1952 from the USAF Directorate of Intelligence disagreed:
"The Scientific Advisory Board Secretariat has suggested that this project not be declassified for a variety of reasons, chief among which is that no scientific explanation for any of the fireballs and other phenomena was revealed by the report and that some reputable scientists still believe that the observed phenomena are man-made."[citation needed]
It was also stated that some of the scientists continued to believe they were Russian spy devices. Besides LaPaz, this included Dr. Anthony Mirarchi, the first director of Project Twinkle.[citation needed]
The following month, another letter from the Directorate of Intelligence to the Research Division of the Directorate of Research and Development again stated that the report should not be publicly released, since no real solution had been provided:
"It is believed that a release of the information to the public in its present condition would cause undue speculation and give rise to unwarranted fears among the populace such as occurred in previous releases on unidentified flying objects. This results from releases when there has been no real solution."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_fireballs#Project_Twinkle
When I googled Project Twinkle, there appears to be more good information about those green fireballs. Right now I have to finally go to bed. You all have heightened my interest in this phenomena.
Can't sleep.
This quote from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_fireballs#Project_Twinkle
Despite efforts of the final Twinkle report to downplay the fireballs and other studied UFO phenomena as natural, a follow-up report in February 1952 from the USAF Directorate of Intelligence disagreed:
"The Scientific Advisory Board Secretariat has suggested that this project not be declassified for a variety of reasons, chief among which is that no scientific explanation for any of the fireballs and other phenomena was revealed by the report and that some reputable scientists still believe that the observed phenomena are man-made."
Thats what Ben Rich at the Skunkworks said.... and he was in a position to know... but sticking to the action at the time. READ carefully what that report actually DID say...'suggested that this project not be declassified for a variety of reasons." Then they list SOME of the reasons but in my opinion ..... not the real one. The point of my theory here is that they did indeed believe that SOME of these "objects" were man-made.....developed here on earth.... but here was the tough thing..... they didn't know by whom.
LeMay was not a dumb man.( Bombastic maybe.... oh, I am sorry.... I REALLY didn't mean to do that)
He worried about it being a Russian development. WHY? Because he knew that his new AirForce had not developed it. Who else could it be? I am sure that he wondered.....and the answers were not coming out into the open . In fact things were getting murkier.
In the very early fifties my Dad gave a demonstration to a very high level group of Navy men at Barbers Point in Hawaii. He revealed a couple of discs which displayed a new propulsion system, and also what certain FBI files referred to as a " communication device".
A strange turn of events compromised the security of that demonstration and Dad left being quoted saying that the only thing that he could do now was act the part of the " wounded prairie chicken to lead preditors away from the more vital project.
He "Hit the trail" stateside in 1952 showing the operation of the discs to anyone who would come into the Townsend Brown Foundation offices in Los Angeles.. It caused quite a stir when an Air Force general was apprised of that.... (all of this is in the common literature. I will post again tomorrow with some pertinent links) Johns father (William Lear) was escorting visitors to those demonstrations for Dad.
While Dad was giving these demonstrations the Airforce was busy discrediting the entire " flying -saucer -sighting-phenomenon. Something they continued relentlessly.....
Now ask yourself.... what was Dads " Prairie Chicken act" protecting? And why would a man who had worked on this for his entire career be so willing to discredit himself by tying himself so strongly to a field where.... the public was being told repeatedly .... was peopled only by cranks and nutcases?
Linda Brown
ANOTHER of my favorite mysteries addressed here.
Over the years, I have noted that much attention has been given to this 'fireball' case, but no one ever asks what was going on in the same area with the V2 rockets we had brought home from Germany. You can bet that they were not left sitting on a shelf. I wonder where Sarbacher was during this period of time?
Interesting, too, that some one pinpointed the area of Ft. Hood Texas as a sighting source. Were the PaperClip scientists there then?
And let's not overlook the woman!
QuoteDr. Bradbury: Well, we're not coming up with any bright ideas for you very fast
Mr. Newbury: No but maybe now that we have the problem presented to you, maybe by thinking on this you will come up with an idea. Of course you know our entire connection which started with Madelyne Gwinn Merchant back in 1946.
Dr. LaPaz: Except for the flying discs, nothing that you could say would cause me greater embarrassment! I have actually had communications from Madelyn myself.
She must have been a prolific writer! Footnote from Project Grudge file on the Earthspace Discovery site:
Quote7. A "gadget" is a buzzword for an unidentified blip on a radarscope. Newburger seems to have picked this term up from Madelyn Gwynn Merchant, who he jokingly mentions later. This woman wrote unsolicited letters to all levels of the
military command, herself unaffiliated with any of them, and attracted the attention of the FBI, who felt she had access to confidential government documents. Apparently she made an impact on the government community she wrote to, which included the AEC.
http://home.earthlink.net/~danielsage17/grudge/grudge_notes.htm
hey does this count?... i have a thing about taking full moon pics and on this one i got a green ball..didn't see it when i was taking the pic only as i looked at it..
the second pic it is barely visible speck in the lower right
hp 542 digital set to auto on a tri-pod
8-10-06 10:26 pm est looking south / slightly south west
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/Vault/hpim0112a.jpg)
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/Vault/hpim0113a.jpg)
(http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/53/83/hpim0112.jpg) (http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/53/83/hpim0112.jpg)
Click on image for full size original
http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/53/83/hpim0113.jpg[/img]]=http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/53/83/hpim0113.jpg(http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/53/83/hpim0113.jpg) (http://=http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/13/55/53/83/hpim0113.jpg%5Bimg%20width=640%20height=476)
Click on image for full size original
I had a feeling Rose that you would not let Madelyns name and the reference to her slide by. I did not even know her name before now but I think we need to add her to the list.....
Mrs. Clara John........ Rose Hacket Cambell......and our Bahamian lady.... Charlotte Blodget.
Those names familiar to anyone? If it hadn't been for Clara Johns " Flying Saucer discussion group " in Washington and her little publication " The Little Listening Post" Dad would never have been inspired to create NICAP. She also was the avenue through which the annotated copy of Jessups book was printed out by Varo and then circulated in important military circles... leading to the formation of the Robertson Panel to investigate things that became later the story of the Philadelphia Experiment. ?????????
And dear Charlotte showed up just in time to guide George Adamski in the creation of his book about his experiences with flying saucers. (Some say that she actually authored the book that made him famous.)????
I am not going to bother getting in too deep describing the activities of these ladies..... BUT it might be that they were tied into a common denominator here. And notice that no one has really paid any attention to them at all..... hiding in plain sight.
Oh and Rose was Dads secretary when he established NICAP and she continued to inform him of activities there long after he left. She sent a packet of reports to Dad in 1957. That was the information that Dad asked me to go through and sort out those saucers which " wobbled"....." They" he said.... "are OURS" ????????
And now a lady named Madelyn.... and I am embarrassed to say that I know nothing about her other than what you have just reported.......
And you are right Rose.... what if all of these " saucer" reports were just a cover for the missile testing that might have been going on as a result of the Paperclip Scientists nearby. Several of these reports said that there was a " whistling " noise that was similar to the " buzz- bombs as they flew over England. You were safe, it was said..... as long as you could hear them.... when they stopped making noise........"
And if it wasn't a rocket.... then what might it have been? Linda
That quote is interesting
"Of course you know our entire connection which started with Madelyne Gwinn Merchant back in 1946. and then this
"A "gadget" is a buzzword for an unidentified blip on a radarscope. Newburger seems to have picked this term up from Madelyn Gwynn Merchant, who he jokingly mentions later. This woman wrote unsolicited letters to all levels of the military command, herself unaffiliated with any of them, and attracted the attention of the FBI, who felt she had access to confidential government documents. Apparently she made an impact on the government community she wrote to, which included the AEC
http://home.earthlink.net/~danielsage17/grudge/grudge_notes.htm
If the FBI felt that she had connections to " confidential government documents then she was not just a ranting nut case.... she must have hit a nerve somewhere......and ...... thats just about what Dad said about Mrs. Clara John too. I asked him how she seemed to know so much... her " Little Listening Post" was full of very interesting "insider" sounding information. His response was that she had " friends in high places". Of course now maybe I finally get the irony of that statement! :-[
Green Fireballs You Say?
I seem to recall John saying that when Apollo was out there, they always had something watching them... Seems that was also confirmed by someone working at Kwajalien Atoll in the late 60's. Well since you guys brought up Green Fireballs...
"Green Fireballs Leaving the Planet?"
Mission: Apollo 07
AS07-05-1613 and AS07-06-1700
AS07-05-1613
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/04images/Moon9/AS07_05_1613/AS07-5-1613HR_ISD900.JPG)
Source: JSC/NASA ISD highres AS07-05-1613
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/04images/Moon9/AS07_05_1613/Ball_1613_01.png)
AS07-06-1700
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/04images/Moon9/AS07_06_1700/AS07-06-1700HR_ISD900.JPG)
Source: JSC/NASA ISD highres AS07-06-1700
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/04images/Moon9/AS07_06_1700/Ball_700_001.png)
Green Fireballs Leaving the Planet? - Pegasus Page (http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/02files/Moon_Images_A22.html)
The above HiRes images are available from this link;
NOTICE: Please don't spread this around... it is a directory on NASA's FTP server, not generally seen by the average public. So exercise prudence (I already stored them all) This was the directory that once had all the Apollo images in tiff format but they moved those before I downloaded them all. ArMaP will recall that day. Rule #1 SAVE EVERYTHING BEFORE YOU POST A LINK :D )
Enjoy
ftp://eol.jsc.nasa.gov/
NASA has many hidden web servers that contain the good stuff :D Like this one for documents
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/04images/Mars4/Life/NASA_Access_001.png)
And Rule No. 2: Remember where you saved it!
That was interesting, Zorgon. After wading through the pile above, I noticed that the interest in the fireballs really rampled up when they began to come down vertically instead of horizontally.
Perhaps it is or is not relevant, but more sophisticated photo-reconnaissance was being tested in New Mexico at the same time. Cameras and V-2rockets were being paired for the first time.
http://ufocon.blogspot.com/2010/02/of-roswell-rockets-secret-v-2-flying.html
Sarbacher's son said that atlhough the rumor was that his Dad was hired to develop guided missiles to shoot down UFOs, he was actually hired to put cameras on them, so that they could film UFOs since nothing else was fast enough to track them. (The original source for this was a post by Robert von Sarbacher. Unfortunately, the link I have is no longer valid, but you will find reference to the story here:
http://www.ufomystic.com/2008/05/07/sarbacher-strieber-ufo/
When I think about the feasible ways we would have been observing our spacecraft missions before they left orbit, I wonder if perhaps we used this same technology in parallel with each launch.
Maybe not, but if we keep the churn going long enough something is sure to pop out that we will all look at and say, 'oh, that makes perfect sense.'
Quote from: rose on February 12, 2012, 10:54:02 PM
Perhaps it is or is not relevant, but more sophisticated photo-reconnaissance was being tested in New Mexico at the same time. Cameras and V-2rockets were being paired for the first time.
Hi Rose, great link in there too... thanks!
Here's one that goes in that folder as well -
Quote... in March 1950, a True magazine article written by U.S. Naval Commander Robert B. McLaughlin, a rocket specialist at White Sands Proving Ground, revealed that UFOs had been sighted at the highly secret base during the test of a modified V-2 rocket.
Referring to the incident, McLaughlin wrote, "This day [June 10, 1949] we were firing a Navy upper atmosphere missile.
Shortly after its take-off, two small circular objects, guessed to be approximately 20 inches in diameter, appeared from no place and joined the Navy missile on its upward flight. (Similar small disks have also been previously reported as well as the larger types mentioned earlier.)
At about the time the Navy missile was doing well over 2,000 feet per second, the object on the west side passed through the exhaust gases and joined its friend on the east. They then apparently decided the missile was not going fast enough for them. They accelerated, passed the Navy missile and sailed off upward and eastward."
In addition to the striking similarities between this 1949 case and the Big Sur UFO Incident, which occurred some 15 years later, there is another commonality:
According to an Office of Special Investigations (OSI) report in the declassified Project Blue Book files, the U.S. Army's Public Information Officer at White Sands, Captain Edward Detchemendy, tried to suppress UFO sighting reports at the base and actually chastised Commander McLaughlin, on July 6, 1949, after overhearing him discussing a radar tracking of another UFO with an individual who had no "need-to-know" about it.
According to veteran UFO researcher Richard Hall, McLaughlin was later punished by the Navy for writing the article—losing his job at White Sands and being shipped off to sea duty.
http://www.missileforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=896&start=30 (http://www.missileforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=896&start=30)
Uh oh, battleship duty in the bathtub for him!
However this at least confirms and establishes the 1949 Naval presence, clearance and "participation" in Top Secret programs at The White Sands Proving Grounds, the original 'Area 51' if you will.
(http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/dd78390f52f5.jpg)
I would add that there were also several accounts besides this one, of small (20 - 30 inches on average) silver discs displaying outlandish flight capabilities in newspaper articles during the 1947 wave, along with the more prevalent accounts of aircraft- size silver flying saucers. Military pilots even made official reports of these seen during their flight, judged from various angles in- flight. Also Military Police on-duty at a 'sensitive' installation reported these probing the base.
If we accept the size estimate and veracity of these sightings, one can only surmise that these were perhaps remote control drones/probes.
I also recall Major Keyhoe saying that the (early- on in the 1947 wave) public and private reports of these small discs were of major concern and caused quite a stir in the Pentagon, because it was suspected that these were remote control bombs that could be guided into place and detonated, and were showing up at several 'sensitive' installations.
These military base sightings were not reported to the newspapers, but had "The Brass on the edge of their seats" is how he described it if memory serves.
Quote from: sky otter on February 12, 2012, 05:42:09 PM
hey does this count?... i have a thing about taking full moon pics and on this one i got a green ball..didn't see it when i was taking the pic only as i looked at it..
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/Vault/hpim0112a.jpg)
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/Vault/hpim0113a.jpg)
Yeah that counts. LD Nice catch. Doesn't look like a meteor as there is no tail and its not showing high speed motion blur. And its not coming straight at you because it is smaller and to the right in the second image
I would say you have a real UFO their :D
I do want to point out one thing... not all green fireballs are Spacecraft.
Those two NASA ones however are moving to slow and the wrong direction for a meteorite, however green boloids are fairly common. They are green because of the oxygen burning from their reentry heat. They are however relatively easy to tell they are space rocks
Peekskill Fireball Meteor This one was big and famous and hit a car...
(The guy GAVE it to the University >:( It's MINE I sayz :P )
QuoteThe Peekskill meteorite broke up over the United States on October 9, 1992, an event witnessed by thousands across the East Coast. The meteorite broke up over Kentucky and damaged a parked Chevrolet Malibu in Peekskill, New York on impact. Major cities like Pittsburgh witnessed the bright meteorite. The meteorite traveled northeast and had a pronounced greenish color. The meteorite has been captured on 16 different videos and remains as one of the most famous meteorite sightings
Peekskill meteorite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peekskill_meteorite)
The Peekskill Meteorite and Fireball (http://uregina.ca/~astro/mb_5.html)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOyECK-3awo
(http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0611/peekskill_thomas_big.jpg)
QuoteExplanation: The Peekskill meteor of 1992 was captured on 16 independent videos and then struck a car. Documented as brighter than the full Moon, the spectacular fireball crossed parts of several US states during its 40 seconds of glory before landing in Peekskill, New York. The resulting meteorite, pictured here, is composed of dense rock and has the size and mass of an extremely heavy bowling ball. If you are lucky enough to find a meteorite just after impact, do not pick it up -- parts of it are likely to be either very hot or very cold. In this weekend's Leonid meteor shower, few meteors, if any, are expected to hit the ground.
Astronomy Picture of the Day (http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap061119.html)
(http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/Images/StarChild/solar_system_level2/fireball_big.gif)
This photograph was taken by S. Eichmiller in Altoona, Pennsylvania (http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/solar_system_level2/peekskill.html) just after the main meteoroid body broke up into fragments.(http://xpda.com/junkmail/junk186/peek.jpg)
The Peekskill Meteorite videos (http://meteor.uwo.ca/~pbrown/Videos/peekskill.htm)
Paper: The orbit and atmospheric trajectory of the Peekskill meteorite (http://meteor.uwo.ca/~pbrown/peekskill-nature.pdf)Meteor over alberta! (Best footage)
Nov 21, 2008http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBLhEoBTAnc
Low-Flying Green Fireball - Japan - January 6, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsfBNYCtbr4
Real Meteor Australiahttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieLmVbGXGZw
Z ..as ususal more info than ever..how the heck do you manage to keep track of it all.. :)
if anyone is interested the object shooting past in the pic is mostly red with green towards the outside and darker indents on it ..looks like flames around it
i'm sorry but i lost my program to enlarge parts of pics when i switched cameras
so if you can put it on your own pics you can enlarge it to see the details..kinda cool
whatever the heck it is
i still find it hard to believe i didn't see it when i was taking the pic
thanks Z for all your help
:)
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/A51Watcher/resize-hpim0113a.jpg)
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/A51Watcher/resize-hpim0112a.jpg)
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/A51Watcher/resize2-hpim0112a.jpg)
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/A51Watcher/resize2neg-hpim0112a.jpg)
Negative image zoom displays no obvious signs of photoshop pasting or feathering.
8)
;D
watcher..did you think i faked it ? ? ;D ;D ;D
i am so flattered you credit me with knowing how to do that...
and lmao at the same time
the program i was speaking of only let me isolate parts of a photo and enlarge them
and keep that enlargement as the photo
i can save a photo to my pictures and enlarge THAT to look at it..but i can't change the original
so you only see the enlargement...
and what i was trying to say was to do exactly that..to move it onto your computer and enlarge the object to see the details
gotta tell you ..you have made my day...
hahahahahahahaha..oh wow....thanks
;D ;D 8)
;)
Just helping out where I can.
Of course I did the enlargements when I saw them and had no idea what they show other than it's certainly unexplainable in my book.
A fireproof meteor perhaps? ;D
The negative enlargement was to show no evidence of a tail as zorgon pointed out. 8)
(The bit about photoshop was one of my usual oblique sarcasms) ;)
We had about month ago a great, mostly green fireball with some reddish and bluish in it(in the youtube video it seem just green). It even made a rare sonic boom as it left the atmosphere(or entered,depends of who gives the info).
I have been tracking info about it in a Finnis sientific net page as they promised to track its trajectory, but all the sudden it has just been put in a total darkness, no updates as promised and nothing, I smell something fishy in it. At the time there was a bright half moon and the fireball still managed to cast a great shadows.
But I'll keep following if I get more info about it.
There is some video of it in youtube for you Fireball fans :)
I notice that I dont know how to decently add a link here.. Noob.. have to check on some instructions :o
Hi there all, My only sighting so far of what we call UFO's was one of these green fire ball's, it was way back in the 90's but i remember it plain as day. It was an normal day weather wise it was overcast but bright in the afternoon just after dinnertime.
I was outside in the country in the north Yorkshire part of England,i looked up in the sky as this Green Fire ball caught my eye.
It was no meteor as it was travelling way to slow, it was also on a straight flight path not falling just travelling across the sky at maybe 2000 feet? It twinkled, left no smoke trail and was silent.
I ruled out all the obvious possibilities like flare,firework,meteor, it lasted to long for it to have been ball lightning IMHO & it was NOT a light on any plane or man made craft.
It just carried on into the distance,i watched it for maybe 10-15 seconds. Wish i knew what it was i saw.my story my sighting :)