Sick and disabled braced for enforced work-for-benefits programme
UK
Welfare claimants could be forced to work without pay and be stripped of benefits under scheme starting on Monday
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/nov/30/sick-disabled-work-benefits-programme
Seeing that that "news" is from two years ago, did it happen or not? :)
Dunno we rarely ever get follow ups on news stories... usually buried on page 110 in fine print :P
Maybe Sinny can catch us up 8)
I've just finished watching a 'Sanction' discussion on the Parliament channel as it happens.
In the last two years benefit sanctions have increased ten fold, as has the use of foood banks.
The Government and DWP appear to be in cahoots to increase 'sanctions', this is because some one under sanction is classed as 'off benefit', which they use in their figures to tell use claiments are 'decreasing', whilst employment is 'increasing'.
The medical and WRAG assessments are extremely flawed, and back logged in the system. They are ineffective, which leads to many cases such as the one presented in the OP.
This is of concern to our local representatives, and national charities.
The coalitions new policies have broken the law on several occasions, have breached basic human rights, and in fact remain to breach human rights, leaving a minority of the population completely destitute.
I could write a long essay on the systems faults and flaws.
In order to get around breaking the law, 'they' are simply re-writing it.
From training the other day, I learned that they want access to your 'Universal Job Match Account', which is some new rollox 'univeral' job matching site (which has been found to be fraudulent, advertising false jobs), and with this account they'll track your 'searching activity' via cookies.
And a whole bunch of crazy shizzle.
Private corporations (of which I work for a sub-contractor), are paid millions, for doing not a lot. If someone gets a job, its one they would have got anyway (in most cases).
This to could have an essay wrote on it, suffice it to say, I'm sure you can see the picture.
Things are getting quite desperate over here.
Major class warfare.
Thanks for the explanation, Sinny. :)
But there's one thing I didn't understand, are people being forced into unpaid work?
Quote from: ArMaP on December 06, 2014, 06:44:29 PM
Thanks for the explanation, Sinny. :)
But there's one thing I didn't understand, are people being forced into unpaid work?
I know the DWP have the power to 'mandate' somebody into a 'work related placement', in the past I now people have been mandated for up to 6 weeks'.
The DWP, pay the travel expenses, and deem this as suitable.
I have not heard of any case since the Poundland one that went to court, I forget the details and will edit them in. I think it was due to this case, 'mandation' by DWP was brought to a halt for 3 days, whilst it was pending whether the whole mandation and sanction process was even legal. I think in the end, they just changed some legislation, and the process then continued.
As you could probably guess, this has not been a popular option with the public, and for that reason, I don't think the mandation is used very often, I've been delving into the job seekers community of late, and have not heard any word of anyone recently being forced to take part.
It is wrong on a number of levels, full time 'mandated' 'voluntry' action, effectively supplies large corporations with staff working 40 hours a week for £72, breaching working rights, whilst phasing out real employment opportunities.
Completely backwards to say the least. Not that that comes at any sort of surprise, all these welfare cuts have happened without any public backing what's so ever, following a few brief months of anti-welfare propaganda. So successful have the media been, they have even taken one of our 'benefit scroungers - who they met whilst doing a documentary on Birmingham's 'poor' - and enticed her to even state she supports benefits cuts, well, she wouldn't care any more, she's just made thousands on some 'celebrity' deals.
Both our government actions reflect the exact opposite of the actions we the people would make.... Heyho.
I am out of touch with the latest on the benefits system.
But from what I recall for the average adult over 25, if you had been out of work say over 12 months or more on Job seekers allowance and say went onto Employment support allowance..they started making claimants having to go once a week to attend some location (that used to be just your local job centre..but now is often somewhere some distance away elsewhere) where they claim to help you apply for jobs and offer help and advice....Prior to this you had to apply for about 4 jobs between signing and prove that you had done so..
If you were on the sick or unable to attend the one day a week..
after so many weeks, they insist you have to take a medical..
and now they are very strict on how they access you..and many people are being forced to get back into the system or they cut or stop ones benefits... you have to be seen to be really ill or unfit to work to receive any sickness or disability benefits..most are forced back in the system like it or not..and many who are unwell are being put in very difficult situations.. where as a few years ago they would have been given support benefits no problem.
They have now brought out this universal credit or something and what maybe restricted hours if one takes a job...I do not really know too much about it or how it works..BUT it seems very demeaning...and claimants are seeming to be put in bad situations..
Barring having to work to obtain some form of benefits..
It really has become a bad situation...and I can only see it getting worse...
I think in the not so far future, they will have claimants doing community work to obtain their benefits..or force people to work.
They systems a sham as they have so many ridiculas restrictions that do not give many people good incentive to work..
What may seem unfair is for those with morgages..and families.. they get paid their morgage and earn more than someone who is just single..and the amount depends upon ones morgage payments....when that has been paid for say a year, that mounts up to a lot of benefit...where as the single person gets paid a pittance in relation..
What really gets me, is they go on about how they are needing to make cuts and savings for this and that.. many times being things that effect the poorest in society...
YET... when it came to the 2007 to 2009 financial crash.... the Governments create trillions of dollars to boost the economy with their quantitative easing...or come up with money when wars occur....
How do they justify that I do not know !
seems they just print money when they need it...but deny it to people who need it..
Although this may be well out the realm of the experience's of the news article.
14 years ago I had to work for Unemployment Benefit's. I must add that I was able bodied and actively seeking work at the time.
My experience with what was called at the time " Working for the Dole" by the opposition party was actually quite positive. ;D
If I recall correctly I had had a choice of three place's to do "Volunteer Work". Two place's were at Salvation Army type store's, and One was at a Chinese Museum which preserved the Gold Rush Day's in my Hometown. Needless to say I chose the Chinese Museum....
And to this day I still maintain that was the best Job I have ever had. All I did on my two day's per week was learn history, have very nice meals made for me, chatted with the old folk's who were volunteers to the Museum (met a qigong teacher who found Two Mortgage Breaking Gold Nuggets in his time) and swept up incense from the temple's and around the Dragons.
Shortly after that I got a job in 3D printing 14 years ago with a well and truly dumbed down resume ;D
In my experience it was very beneficial to be taken out of the job hunting rut and do something else. Collecting Dole is one thing, getting out and about makes such a difference to your outlook when you are a true jobseeker.
Just my thought's where I hated the Gov in power at the time but will defend that decision they made. Dragging people away from rut's is possitive :)
Well here in Nevada your "dole" is called UI Unemployment insurance. As you work a small portion is put into it from your paycheck, employers sometimes match that. When you get laid off you can collect for 26 weeks, sometimes more depending on how long you worked without collecting.
After those weeks expire that's it... you will need at least 16 weeks of work to start it again
Having able bodied people work for the dole... why is that a problem? It's just like getting a job isn't it? Why does anyone complain? Or is it they just don't want to work and prefer the handouts so they can sit at the pub all day?
Lots of work out there needs doing so if da Gubment is using working taxpayers money to pay the dole... seems to me getting a little work out of them is a good thing
8)
The US has a population of 316.1 million (2013 census)
Of that only about half file income tax returns the actual number of returns with the IRS is 136,585,712
When the economy is down and people are out of work the tax base drops. They may still file but since they make no money they pay little. My daughter works part time about 20-24 hours a week, schooling the rest of the time... So while she is officially counted as a tax payer as she has to file... she gets it ALL back because she is a student and the annual income is officially below the poverty level for an individual
Now how long can a state or a country maintain itself when the number of actual tax payers drop below the number getting welfare?
Fortunately for Nevada, the Casinos pay most of that for us (we have no state income tax)
So why not get some work out of those who are physically able to do it? Doesn't need to be ditch digging... lots of desk jobs in the government :P
Quote from: astr0144 on December 07, 2014, 04:50:30 PM
seems they just print money when they need it...
And then they refer to it as "Government Debt".
::)
@Soma, great story. Thanks for sharing.
:D
In this neck of the woods, The Salvation Army does a great job with community effort, helping in many areas of need. They have kitchens where they serve meals daily, and food banks, they will help with clothing, uitility bills....etc. , and the people who run it are not taking an exhorbitant salary. ( Unlike some other so called
"Charities". The money they take in goes mainly to help for the needy.
Quote from: astr0144 on December 07, 2014, 04:50:30 PM
YET... when it came to the 2007 to 2009 financial crash.... the Governments create trillions of dollars to boost the economy with their quantitative easing...or come up with money when wars occur....
How do they justify that I do not know !
seems they just print money when they need it...but deny it to people who need it..
Think about it a bit...
In 2009 the Federal reserve could not account for NINE TRILLION DOLLARS... that works out to about 35,000 for every man woman and child in the US. Since only half of those are tax payers that is $70,000 per tax payer.
And that is just the Fed for ONE year, not counting daily operating expenses and war spending etc etc etc
So WHERE does all this money come from? I surely don't pay 70,000 a year in taxes...
They say we are TRILLIONS of dollars in Debt...
In Debt to WHO exactly?
WHO will collect if we default?
Yet annually we give BILLIONS in loan and aid to foreign countries, then years later we forgive those debts
Student loans are high these days... but most students I have known have had most of that debt forgiven or payments made so low its almost nothing
So WHERE is all this money coming from?
The problem, is quite simply the minimum wage.
Which is not met in forced labour.
As it happens, the lowest 20% of our earners rely on further government hand outs in the form of 'working tax credits' just to remain above float.
We have a working poor, that should say all that needs to be said on the matter of our work prospects.
Judge a nation on how well it looks after its most vunerable members.
The UK has been hitting the headlines, constantly loosing rank in various social aspects.
Well have a look at France... perhaps UK will soon have this same issue
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDJyhf1VQL4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDJyhf1VQL4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yspg79kr6W4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yspg79kr6W4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1Btc9qMALg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1Btc9qMALg
Quote from: zorgon on December 07, 2014, 06:53:53 PM
Having able bodied people work for the dole... why is that a problem? It's just like getting a job isn't it? Why does anyone complain? Or is it they just don't want to work and prefer the handouts so they can sit at the pub all day?
A big part of the problem with this rationale, is that very few of the people who express it, actually mean it. 90%+ of the "work is a moral virtue," crowd would gladly accept a passive income via usury or pyramid schemes if they could get it. My father is one. He used to give me lectures similar to the above on the supposed moral righteousness of work, and yet he's spent most of his adult life going from one pyramid get-rich-quick scheme to the next; always seeking that magical means of bringing in $20K a week without having to lift a finger.
Unless you're doing manual work like agriculture, the trades, or artisan stuff, making money has nothing to do with work whatsoever. It is about who you know, and the degree to which you are willing to conform, and that is all. If you know the right people, and are willing to stimulate them orally to a sufficient degree, you can become economically secure.
Again, relative to agriculture or the conventional trades, the "work-as-moral-good," argument has some genuine truth to it; but in terms of the majority of real occupations that most people do these days, it means nothing. If you do any sort of office work whatsoever, whether or not you drink with the guys after work, play golf with the boss, or get invited to the Christmas party has
far more to do with your professional wellbeing than real job performance. It's a purely social game.
Industry by itself, will only get you anywhere in the event that your money is tied exclusively to your output. That is only true in the case of occupations like farming, where you are producing some sort of generic commodity that everybody needs, year in and year out.
In IT or finance, however, the above is not true. The product is not your output; it is you yourself. Most jobs related to economics don't have legitimate reasons to exist anyway, in terms of what they genuinely do for society. In such jobs, the only thing that matters is how much management likes you. If management likes you well enough, you could be a bully or the biggest screwup on the planet, but you'll be safe.
I'm subscribed to /r/sysadmin on Reddit, and as the people their demonstrate, IT as an industry is now completely corrupt. They were lamenting just recently, about the fact that IT employers now care much more about a recruit's interpersonal skills and "emotional intelligence," (read: the ability to pass as slimy, gladhanding, latte-sipping, Millennial corporate
scum that exclusively use Google's brand of lying corporatese in leiu of plain English) than about the ability to actually keep a computer running, which in a more sane world, would be the entire reason why a sysadmin would be employed in the first place.
I've got 20 years of self-taught experience using open source UNIX in various different forms; but I'm going to have to be very, very desperate indeed, before I will remotely contemplate trying to get a job in that industry, in its' current form...and even then, I most likely wouldn't.
The short answer to this is...
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/185/nickcage.jpeg)
You seem to spend more effort at NOT working then most people do on a 9-5 job :P
I dont blame any one for not wanting to work if they are only being offered low paid jobs, and if they can get away with getting benefits..
But there are many people who are denied benefits and have little choice and have to take what ever work they can get to earn some income to survive !...
Of the people who do not or are not working...some are Ok with it and can get by on little income..and be quite occupied with their own interests...
Others get extremely bored being out of work or being at home all day... and maybe for those sort of people they are better doing some sort of work to occupy themselves...
Somethings about work are good for us...
when you are out of work one can become very unfit and unhealthy and depressed...
but for some also work can create health issues for them if its doing something not suited for them...or that they dislike..
Hopefully we should be offered free choice in what we decide upon. but hopeully do not end up in severe poverty or homeless.
and maybe if one does not decide to work for anyone else that they can find their own ways to make some sort of honest income !
Quote from: burntheships on December 07, 2014, 07:27:40 PM
And then they refer to it as "Government Debt".
::)
@Soma, great story. Thanks for sharing.
:D
In this neck of the woods, The Salvation Army does a great job with community effort, helping in many areas of need. They have kitchens where they serve meals daily, and food banks, they will help with clothing, uitility bills....etc. , and the people who run it are not taking an exhorbitant salary. ( Unlike some other so called
"Charities". The money they take in goes mainly to help for the needy.
Hey good to see you mate :D
At that time I refrained from the Op-Shop option of being unemployed for 6 months.. Dragon Museum vs Op-Shop...a no brainer LOL
I guess the moral to the story is that making people work a bit (if you could call it work in my case) bought a smile to a dial in someone who was a bit beaten up from applying for so many jobs getting nowhere with employment.
I imagine this thread may go down the path of "making opportunity" at some point. ;D
Having worked as a Corporate Audio-Visual dude, along with now 14 years ongoing experience in the 3D Printing Industry I have been surrounded by some serious heavy hitter's and at the end of the day the only difference I have noticed in those that make buck's and those that don't is.... Those that do "Implement their Thought and Carry it out".
SO whilst many people sit back and play the victim card in "everyday life"... You could be the one implementing some change through the same means.
Tonight I happened upon this young bloke whilst searching for a farmers market who has a new business distributing Organic Fruit and Vegie's.
This guy is a go getter, and once I am back from Taiwan in mid Jan I'll place and order for a box of Banana's and Date's.
http://www.fruitwellbeing.com.au/fruit-wellbeing.html
Not the Best video but here he is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjxWBab-JSc
Man up and be the Man ;)
Quote from: astr0144 on December 08, 2014, 01:32:59 PM
and maybe if one does not decide to work for anyone else that they can find their own ways to make some sort of honest income !
THIS
This is what I have been saying all along. There are literally thousands of ways to make money in the western world. I cannot speak for other countries as I have not been there to see it first hand though I know this applies in China and Russia
What is required is a will to work finding a niche that fits your talents or learn a new talent
We have trash pickup here twice a week. Every trash night there will be 4-5 pickup trucks in our area looking for scrap. People are always tossing out old furniture, old yard stuff, window frames etc etc. These guys with the trucks are usually illegal but not all.
At the current price of scrap they make a good buck on a weekly basis. I collect scrap but not like I used to. But still just saving all the metal and cans etc... I take one trip a month to the scrap yard 5 minutes away and usually average about $300.00 And that is without effort
Not sure you guys in the UK can do this but it works here
If you have a vehicle (or can rent a Uhaul) you can run a free ad in community news as a handy man. We get people knocking at the door all the time to offer yard cleaning, garage cleaning and other assorted odd jobs. These are usually Mexicans and Vets.
Had our two story house painted a few years ago for $700.00... they supplied the paint my three trees trimmed for $150,00
These are jobs I can no longer do but those prices were awesome. Both times it was Mexicans.. They were a small crew and did the job fast
There are a lot of people in houses that need work done but cannot afford the big contractors. I will have at least five jobs I need done next spring.
We still get the occasional kid comes around to rake leaves or cut grass
Quote from: zorgon on December 08, 2014, 06:41:07 PM
...I take one trip a month to the scrap yard 5 minutes away and usually average about $300.00 And that is without effort.
I do the same thing. Just save up the waste aluminum/steel from my week. Soup & vege cans, beer/pop cans. The neighboor kid saves his up too and brings them over and I give him a cut of the $$$. Every 2 weeks I go to the recycle center which actually pays you for metal. It's typically $25-30 every 2 weeks. Doesn't sound like much until you realize over the course of a year it's about $500+ for nearly no effort.
Quote from: zorgon on December 08, 2014, 06:41:07 PM
There are literally thousands of ways to make money in the western world.
Crime is one of them :D
QuoteAt the current price of scrap they make a good buck on a weekly basis. Not sure you guys in the UK can do this but it works here
Yup, we have several local scrap men in each area...
QuoteIf you have a vehicle (or can rent a Uhaul) you can run a free ad in community news as a handy man
We have lots of those too..
QuoteThere are a lot of people in houses that need work done but cannot afford the big contractors.
We have lots of those too...
QuoteWe still get the occasional kid comes around to rake leaves or cut grass
We have lots of those too...
Problem over here in the UK, and I'm talking from observation and experience (our 'speciality' at my work place is helping people go self employed), is that each of our trades are over worked, meaning, work is scarce, and people will be lucky to pay their rent, let alone make a decent living - there are a few exceptions of course... Hence 'working tax credits' creating the illusion we are 'well off' earners - when in fact, most of the working class are being supported via tax payers money.
Giveth with one hand, taketh with the other.
Look at it from this point of view - our councils in Brum town are looking at limiting the amount of 'Take Away' outlets we have over here, as most of our 'high streets' have a ratio of 15:20 outlets performing the same 'food service' ... Which is a direct consequence of our (otherwise) unskilled immigrants... Most of these outlets end up struggling for months, and eventually closing down due to poor takings..... and then re-opening for the same purpose, and repeating the same cycle.
The only time this cycle is broken, is when Big Corp come and take over and transform.
Welcome to inner city prospects.
Quote from: WarToad on December 08, 2014, 07:27:14 PM
I do the same thing. Just save up the waste aluminum/steel from my week. Soup & vege cans, beer/pop cans. The neighboor kid saves his up too and brings them over and I give him a cut of the $$$. Every 2 weeks I go to the recycle center which actually pays you for metal. It's typically $25-30 every 2 weeks. Doesn't sound like much until you realize over the course of a year it's about $500+ for nearly no effort.
In a funny turn of events, back in the day, we used to be offered incentives for recycling over here..
Today, thanks to the Tory Gov,
now we have to pay a service charge in order to recycle our stuff lol.
Quote from: ArMaP on December 06, 2014, 06:44:29 PM
Thanks for the explanation, Sinny. :)
But there's one thing I didn't understand, are people being forced into unpaid work?
I need to correct myself - I've just returned from training, and as it currently stands - DWP can NO LONGER MANDATE WORK PLACEMENTS. period.
Poundland lady won the case for everyone :)
Recycling is Great Topic and their is a Moral for the whole family here :D
In Australia there is only One State which offer's money for Can's and Bottle's, that State is "South Australia". The current rate is 10c AUD per item.
You can read a bit more about the recycling process here in South Aussie:
http://www.recyclesa.com.au/index.html
Funny enough and this is bashing big company's on my part is how other states in Australia wanted to implement this rather good scheme and the Big Boy's said "Eff Off". Luckily our National Broadcaster is educating kids about that LOL
Recycling Canned:QuoteWhy would someone take a recycling scheme to court? That's what happened in the Northern Territory last week. A soft drink company challenged a new law that said people would be paid 10 cents for every drink container they recycled. There's a similar scheme in South Australia so why wasn't this one allowed? Let's take a look.
Source:
http://www.abc.net.au/btn/story/s3707980.htm
To follow up on my South Aussie Recycling post above in regards to a decent recycling scheme and making bucks:
Durianrider caught STEALING stuff from peoples bins!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23IMVIVa0Y0
If we had that scheme in Melbourne.... 8)
Quote from: WarToad on December 08, 2014, 07:27:14 PMThe neighboor kid saves his up too and brings them over and I give him a cut of the $$$.
A local Boy Scout group here used to do that as a fund raiser... got all the neighbors to donate the cans abd they would come collect them. Haven't seen them for a while as the scout master moved away. But he had them do yard work for the elderly too.
They made quite a bit of cash
Quote from: Sinny on December 09, 2014, 12:52:54 PM
In a funny turn of events, back in the day, we used to be offered incentives for recycling over here..
Today, thanks to the Tory Gov, now we have to pay a service charge in order to recycle our stuff lol.
Several years ago in Toronto the city tried to pass a law that it was ILLEGAL to pick trash from the curb.
The "logic' was that once on the curb the trash belonged to the city... so if anyone was going to recycle it it would be the city so you were stealing.
Didn't last long LOL public outcry stopped it because the landfill sites were already over flowing.
I pick up a lot of old furniture of trash days. As I am a carpenter I restore a lot of it and resell it. Same with yard sales I find cheap old furniture fix it up and resell
Here is one I listed on Ebay Looks like someone in Florida wants it :D
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/ODAwWDEyMDA=/z/sHgAAOSwDN1UUsR8/$_57.JPG)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Birch-Multi-Draw-Jewelry-Display-Case-/111533715496
Old dressers have hardware on them... Vintage drawer handles sell for 7-8.00 a pair The wood I cut up for firewood if they are beyond repair
Claimant 'treated like scrounger'
This is the sort of thing where the benefits system has gone overboard and very much made the whole thing with dealing with the benefit system being like treated as if it was Nazi Germany..
with scrutinising investigation into ones circumstances...Its especially hard on anyone with any sort of mental problems as often mental issues are hard to detect or prove and if any claiment is in such a position, it makes it very hard for them...
I suspect many people with such conditions have had their benefits stopped and been forced into even more difficult situations that will cause them more harm...
It even stops some people who need help from asking for it as they do not want to be put through such a demeaning experience..
MSPs have heard how people with mental health problems were made to feel like "scroungers" by those working in the welfare system.
One former claimant told Holyrood's Welfare Reform Committee that the process of claiming benefits made his depression and anxiety worse while another described the agency tasked with carrying out disability assessments as "like the Gestapo".
http://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/news/scotland/claimant-treated-like-scrounger-1.728247