U. S. General Cartwright has been indicted for espionage. I think he is a whistleblower myself. The U. S. he says is responsible for the Stuxnet virus be unleashed on Iran.
http://21stcenturywire.com/2013/07/02/beyond-snowden-us-general-cartwright-has-been-indicted-for-espionage/
While the world focuses on Washington's pursuit of NSA whistleblower Ed Snowden, another much more high ranking member of the US power structure has been indicted for espionage this week...
US General James Cartwright was regarded by Washington insiders as 'Obama's General', and now he's facing prosecution for blowing the whistle on 'Operation Olympic Games' which planted the Stuxnet and Flame viruses in Iranian nuclear facilities in order derail Iran's civilian nuclear program. At closer examination, it appears that Cartwright's revelations didn't so much harm US interests per say, but they hindered Israeli ambitions towards a war with Iran.
But why espionage? What is the line between "whistleblowing" and "espionage" in America today?
More at the above link.....the truth almost always come out in the end.
Quote from: spacemaverick on February 02, 2015, 10:11:42 PM
But why espionage? What is the line between "whistle blowing" and "espionage" in America today?
Basically they call it whistle-blowing when it is state-sponsored disinfo and espionage when it is genuine whistle-blowing.
Quote from: spacemaverick on February 02, 2015, 10:11:42 PM
But why espionage? What is the line between "whistleblowing" and "espionage" in America today?
The difference is a matter of oath... Ed Snowden and the General signed an oath that if they talk they are subject to being charged with treason.
Whether you reveal secrets to Russia or China (espionage) or leak it to the public via the press (Whistle blowing) is there really a difference?
But those on the inside swear an oath so they automatically are traitors by definition.
Now look at an example... we here at Pegasus Me Jack and John were posting since 2006 about the NAS spying on everyone. We showed the actual offices, the technology... We even provided code names for listening posts
Cryptome did the same in more detail with their "Eyeballing" series and there was even a cartoon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3knYQaK1yDc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3knYQaK1yDc
But few paid attention until Snowden stole actual internal papers as PROOF
So we are still here He is in exile in Russia... He signed an oath and was getting a paycheck We didn't sign any oath, don't get a paycheck so our work is only speculation and rumor so we don't have to pack for Russia
I totally understand the oath part. Both men made a decision to violate that oath and along with that they suffer the consequences...but looking at the issues that the computer viruses could cause with reactor controls could become a huge problem. I guess they decided on their own moral grounds. I don't know what I would do if I was in their position.
Quote from: spacemaverick on February 03, 2015, 12:31:50 AM
I totally understand the oath part. Both men made a decision to violate that oath and along with that they suffer the consequences...
An oath huh?
Let's think that hypothetically, you're trying a job in the government, you dont know what you will really do, only that civilian people are involved.
Before you take the job you need oath that you never will talk about what you do or you will be guilty by treason. you go home, happy and cant wait o start the in the job, monday.
Monday has come and you get the car and go to the government facility. You enter the room you supposed to work and, as you open the door, you realise its a lab where people are being killed and tortured. This is your new immoral job.
Can we blame the guy for "blowing the whistle"?
Are not we subverting the human being through the inversion of values?
Quote from: RUSSO on February 03, 2015, 01:19:59 AM
An oath huh?
Yes and this..
How to Receive and Maintain Your Security Clearance
http://extras.sltrib.com/Utah_Data_Center/security_clearance.pdf
NEED TO KNOW CLAUSE
ONCE I GET MY CLEARANCE ELIGIBILITY, CAN I SEE ALL CLASSIFIED INFORMATION?No! Access to any classified information depends on the level of clearance eligibility
you have (Confidential, Secret or Top Secret) and the information you need to know
to do your job. This is called the need-to-know principle.
• With a Confidential clearance eligibility, you have access solely to that
Confidential information which you actually need-to-know to do your job.
• Similarly, a Secret clearance eligibility enables access to Secret and
Confidential information on a need-to-know basis.
• And, a Top Secret clearance eligibility enables access to Top Secret, Secret
or Confidential information that you actually need-to-know to do your job.
Your organization's management determines what classified information you need
to get your job done.
QuoteLet's think that hypothetically, you're trying a job in the government, you dont know what you will really do, only that civilian people are involved.
If you were applying for a job at the NSA I would think you knew what you were applying for LOL Considering that any classified job requires a specific skill set the job apps are pretty clear :D
Once you have your clearance you can start here
http://www.clearedconnections.com/Default.htm
QuoteBefore you take the job you need oath that you never will talk about what you do or you will be guilty by treason. you go home, happy and cant wait o start the in the job, monday.
Business has the same thing only it's called a NDA Non Disclosure Agreement.
If I have a business idea and am seeking partners, I am not going to tell you my idea until you sign that NDA. Once you do, if you blab, it is a break of trust (called treason in gov. :P ) and I get to sue your ass for every cent you own. (or drop you in the Desert somewhere depending how pissed I was (there are a lot of bodies out in the Nevada Desert :P )
QuoteMonday has come and you get the car and go to the government facility. You enter the room you supposed to work and, as you open the door, you realise its a lab where people are being killed and tortured. This is your new immoral job.
You would not be given permission to enter that lab unless your need to know was required to do your job, in which case you would have been briefed :P
QuoteCan we blame the guy for "blowing the whistle"?
If you are married with kids I would think twice about blowing whistles :P Don't you watch the spy movies? They always take out family and your pet dog first. In most American Hero movies the guy doesn't get really mad until they kill his dog :P
QuoteAre not we subverting the human being through the inversion of values?
Probably but you signed up in the first place so what does that say about you? :P
Okay took a while but I found it...
Seems its no longer called an "oath of secrecy"
It comes on Standard Form 312 from ODNI Office of the Director of National Intelligence
CLASSIFIED INFORMATION NONDISCLOSURE AGREEMENT
The conciquences:
4. I have been advised that any breach of this Agreement may result in the termination of any security clearances I hold; removal from any position of special confidence and trust requiring such clearances; or termination of my employment or other relationships with the Departments or Agencies that granted my security clearance or clearances. In addition, I have been advised that any unauthorized
disclosure of classified information by me may constitute a violation, or violations, of United States criminal laws, including the provisions of sections 641, 793, 794, 798, *952 and 1924, title 18, United States Code; *the provisions of section 783(b}, title 50, United States Code; and the provisions of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982. I recognize that nothing in this Agreement constitutes a waiver by the United States of the right to prosecute me for any statutory violation.
How long it lasts:
8. Unless and until I am released in writing by an authorized representative of the United States Government, I understand that all conditions and obligations imposed upon me by this Agreement apply during the time I am granted access to classified information, and at all times thereafter.
http://www.archives.gov/isoo/security-forms/sf312.pdf
Been looking for that paper for some time :D
Now certain department add their own NDA's to that one depending on what you do
Very compartmentalized, very NEED TO KNOW
The U.S. Intelligence Community is a coalition of 17 agencies and organizations, including the ODNI, within the Executive Branch that work both independently and collaboratively to gather and analyze the intelligence necessary to conduct foreign relations and national security activities. Hover over each component for a brief description or for more detail visit: Members of the IC.
Air Force Intelligence
Department of the Treasury
Army Intelligence
Drug Enforcement Administration
Central Intelligence Agency
Federal Bureau of Investigation
Coast Guard Intelligence
Marine Corps Intelligence
Defense Intelligence Agency
National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency
Department of Energy
National Reconnaissance Office
Department of Homeland Security
National Security Agency
Department of State
Navy Intelligence
http://www.dni.gov/index.php
Browsing the Office of the Director of National Intelligence Websites
The content of this website may be browsed anonymously. For statistical purposes, this website automatically logs certain information about your visit,
such as:
The Internet Domain and Internet Protocol (IP) address from which you access our website.
The type of web browser and operating system of the computer used to access our site.
The date and time you visit the site.
The pages you visit on our site.
If you linked to our websites from another website, the address of that website.
If you linked to our websites from a search website, the address of the website and the search term you used.
How to File a Whistleblower Complaint
http://www.dni.gov/index.php/about-this-site/contact-the-ig/how-to-file-a-whistleblower-complaint?highlight=WyJ3aGlzdGxlYmxvd2VyIl0=
It's easy. If you don't like the "Oath" or agreeing to the "CLASSIFIED INFORMATION NONDISCLOSURE AGREEMENT" ----> Don't take the paycheck.
Quote from: WarToad on February 03, 2015, 01:22:24 PM
It's easy. If you don't like the "Oath" or agreeing to the "CLASSIFIED INFORMATION NONDISCLOSURE AGREEMENT" ----> Don't take the paycheck.
It isn't that simple.
The only way a corrupt government can be held to account is if they know citizens will blow the whistle - REGARDLESS OF SECRECY - in the event that they act in an unconstitutional or unlawful way. Without whistle-blowing, there is no democracy.
Snowdon reported spying on own citizens every communication for example. It is against the constitution to do so. You have a right to know!
Quote from: Pimander on February 03, 2015, 11:49:30 PM
The only way a corrupt government can be held to account is if they know citizens will blow the whistle - REGARDLESS OF SECRECY - in the event that they act in an unconstitutional or unlawful way. Without whistle-blowing, there is no democracy.
I don't know how it works in other countries, but I suppose that the same principle we have here in Portugal applies, in which no agreement can include illegal clauses, so any illegal clauses in such an agreement (like allowing illegal activities) or any illegal action asked of the people that signed the agreement are void.
Precisely. SO if you are asked to commit crimes against citizens in secret then you are right to blow the whistle. In fact many persons who work for the GCHQ and NSA are complicit in crimes against their own citizens if you think about it.
So stop spying on me please. :P
Quote from: zorgon on February 03, 2015, 06:32:21 AM
QuoteIf you were applying for a job at the NSA I would think you knew what you were applying for LOL Considering that any classified job requires a specific skill set the job apps are pretty clear :D
Well.... I think that I would be working for the security of the country. And it seems that is not only that which is happening. Even when masked by a name that suggests, in theory, something beneficial for the population (after all a country is made of people and, in my point of view FOR people). It seems to me that the practice is different.
QuoteOnce you have your clearance you can start here
http://www.clearedconnections.com/Default.htm
:o
QuoteBusiness has the same thing only it's called a NDA Non Disclosure Agreement.
Even if you discover later that your job cause harm to other people? I dont think so.
QuoteIf I have a business idea and am seeking partners, I am not going to tell you my idea until you sign that NDA. Once you do, if you blab, it is a break of trust (called treason in gov. :P ) and I get to sue your ass for every cent you own. (or drop you in the Desert somewhere depending how pissed I was (there are a lot of bodies out in the Nevada Desert :P )
If you telling me not to "disclose" a magic soda recipe, im glad in help. If you asking me to not tell that that recipe cause cancer, well... i think i see you in the desert :P
QuoteYou would not be given permission to enter that lab unless your need to know was required to do your job, in which case you would have been briefed :P
Thats remind me some mkultra stories about people working in stuff they would regret later or not depending on the degree of brainwashing ::)
You may be right, but I really have my doubts everyone that work for the gov, especially in black ops know everything is going on... They may be briefed... but those info are really brief :P
Manhattan project is a good example... ;)
QuoteIf you are married with kids I would think twice about blowing whistles :P Don't you watch the spy movies? They always take out family and your pet dog first. In most American Hero movies the guy doesn't get really mad until they kill his dog :P
Well this does not change the fact that despite knowing you probably will suffer the consequences (in this case even pay with your sanity) of failing to act, do not act in this case can also be the cause of worst suffering depending on the type of person you are.
QuoteProbably but you signed up in the first place so what does that say about you? :P
That i was in the need of a job? That i would like to be part of something good for my country?
Thats not the case in this situation. :(