NASA Say: Need to Solve Radiation Belt Problem
Say WHAT? listen at:3:26
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyZqSWWKmHQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyZqSWWKmHQ
Better save that before it gets deleted!
Good point!!!
I have some material from NASA's education outreach showing how astronauts might be able to survive the radiation on a lunar base. I'll pull it out later when I get some time free but you need more than an Apollo module. ;)
Hey this is funny.
I recalled tho see this vid before on "the other site"
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1044367/pg1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1044367/pg1)
Its in the HOAX section ;D
ok?
I will repeat my answer from the first time this video was posted on PRC, back in November (here (http://www.thelivingmoon.com/forum/index.php?topic=7274.msg106604#msg106604), and it wasn't deleted since then). :)
I think they are talking about that particular ship, as they started by saying that the radiation in the Van Allen Belts is dangerous for the electronics, and that's true, today's electronics are much more sensitive than what was used in the 1960s, and I think today's ships, with the electronics fried by radiation, may not be that easy to fly.
Interesting that they went back to capsule design....
Quote from: Lunica on February 09, 2015, 12:10:35 PM
Its in the HOAX section ;D
That is typical ATS BULLSH!T tactics
The video is NOT a hoax its from NASA
What he said is not a HOAX even if open to interpretation
So why is it buried in the HOAX bin> No wonder ATS is becoming the TOILET of the conspiracy sites :P (sorry Springer :P )
The first reply from some Ego thumping debunker turns the thread away from the wuestion. Always the tactic of a true debunker Don't answer the direct question, but derail and send the focus elsewhere. Then get a mod to bury it in the dust bin soon to be forgotten never to see the light of day
"whew... avoided another one"
Never got an answer why Cliff Stone, ATS poster boy of FOIA documents was suddenly booted
I tried posting Pegasus documents REAL documents with link to actual .gov or .mil source I did 6 all 6 were quickly dumped into skunkworks
After that I said screw them and never shared anymore
I have thousands such files here but not much point doing all the work for nothing :D
Okay, I'm the dummy here. I know of the Van Allen belts...what type of radiation are they...electromagnetic or what? Maybe I need to use Google more or it is probably on Living Moon...
Quote from: spacemaverick on February 10, 2015, 12:56:20 AM
Okay, I'm the dummy here. I know of the Van Allen belts...what type of radiation are they...electromagnetic or what? Maybe I need to use Google more or it is probably on Living Moon...
They are made from charged particles that are kept at those areas (usually two) by the magnetic field, so yes, it's electromagnetic radiation but also particle radiation.
Energetic charged particles it says...ie...plasma.....I worked on metal shelters here in Florida that kept electromagnetic signals from getting in or out of a shelter...a large Faraday cage if you will...same thing or not?
So essentially you need a flying Faraday cage so the particles don't get in...right?
Quote from: spacemaverick on February 10, 2015, 12:56:20 AM
Okay, I'm the dummy here. I know of the Van Allen belts...what type of radiation are they...electromagnetic or what? Maybe I need to use Google more or it is probably on Living Moon...
There are lots of high energy protons there. I mean a lot.
High energy protons are used to treat cancer because they kill cells (apoptosis and necrosis). The only reason the cancer treatment does not kill you is because the protons are directed at a certain area of the body but even then they can damage healthy cells.
Is it safe to travel through the belts? As a molecular bioscientist, I wouldn't. But you could fly out via the poles and there is no issue with this radiation. Then you have to deal with a lot more.... See papers below.
PREPARATORY STUDY OF INVESTIGATIONS INTO BIOLOGICAL EFFECTS OF RADIATION (http://iber.na.infn.it/)
Spaceflight Radiation Health Program at JSC (http://srag.jsc.nasa.gov/Publications/TM104782/techmemo.htm)
Risk of Degenerative Tissue or Other Health Effects from Radiation Exposure
Janice L. Huff, Universities Space Research Association
Francis A. Cucinotta, NASA Johnson Space Center (http://spaceradiation.usra.edu/references/Ch7DegenRisks.pdf)
Low energy proton beam induces tumor cell apoptosis through reactive oxygen species and activation of caspases (http://www.nature.com/emm/journal/v40/n1/full/emm200814a.html)
In the end you have to make up your own mind. My opinion is that they do not yet have a solution to this problem which is the reason civilian deep space missions have not happened.
One KNOWN thing about radiation..
Unless you sit near ground zero of an atomic bomb or go swimming in reactor coolent , the effects of radiation take a long time to show up
So I think the issue with the belts is strength of radiation vs time of exposure
Russians have gone back into the very hot Chernobyl building with minimal protection (See the documentary I have posted) Some people are even immune to radiation
But If NASA says it can fry circuits surely it can fry cells too? They tried robots at Chernobly they burnt out fast so they sent in 500,000 humans wearing lead plates for very brief times instead
So humans are tougher than electronics but how many birth defects and deformities came later?
We just don't know and that is the problem And it seems NASA doesn't know either and that is the point :P
I don't give a damn about debunkers they are fools that instantly believe that jet fuel melts steel buildings :P
I have a paper dates 1961 NASA declassified contractor report from GE that says they has shields (Probably where Roddenberry got the Enterprise's shields :P )
So as always we have strong evidence that supports both sides
Quote from: spacemaverick on February 10, 2015, 01:02:52 AM
So essentially you need a flying Faraday cage so the particles don't get in...right?
That would not protect you from all radiation.
The problem is partly that the sort of shielding that will protect you from some radiation causes the really high energy stuff to produce secondary particles which can then harm you.
Here is a quote from a professor of Cosmology and Astrophysics
QuoteONE THIRD OF THE DNA in your body would
be sliced by cosmic rays every year you
spent in interplanetary space. Protecting
astronauts against the onslaught will
entail unavoidable trade-offs
On using a magnetic shield:
QuoteThat is not all. Simple estimates of the power requirements
to maintain the charge of the spacecraft are mind-boggling.
One ampere of current at two billion volts amounts to 2,000
megawatts
the output of a good-size electric power plant.
Rough estimates suggest the current would exceed 10 million
amperes. The proposers have not spelled out how they hope
to charge the spacecraft to two billion volts in the first place.
Curiously, like the idea of inflating magnetic fields, the notion
of charging the spacecraft to shield the astronauts has re
ceived substantial attention and funding without a clear explanation
of how it might work.
https://engineering.dartmouth.edu/~d76205x/research/Shielding/docs/Parker_06.pdf
Quote from: zorgon on February 10, 2015, 01:49:13 AM
I have a paper dates 1961 NASA declassified contractor report from GE that says they has shields (Probably where Roddenberry got the Enterprise's shields :P )
So as always we have strong evidence that supports both sides
Sorry, I should have said: Officially they do not have a solution to the problem yet which is why there are no civilian deep space flights. (Apart from the apollo hoax. Don't bite! :P ::) )
Thanks you all. I will look into the information provided to obtain a better understanding!
Does a Faraday cage not require GROUNDING to work? What do you ground it to in space?
Remember the NASA STS-75 TETHER? When it broke free it continued collecting power and started glowing, a sustained arc.
So what would happen in a cage that wasn't grounded?
To illustrate the point This guy is wearing a Faraday suit He is also standing on an insulated platform
You can see the suit discharging to ground from his foot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJqoRaphiEk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJqoRaphiEk
Quote from: zorgon on February 10, 2015, 01:49:13 AM
But If NASA says it can fry circuits surely it can fry cells too?
The problem with modern circuits is that they are very small and made to use very low currents, so an extra electron may create problems in an electronic circuit but it wouldn't affect much a living organism.
If you looks at the integrated circuits used in the Apollo mission you can see that transistors and resistors were visible.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Agc_nor2.jpg)
Today's computers are already using processors made with 25 nanometres elements (or space between elements, I'm not sure), and most use CMOS transistors, as those use less power and make it easier to make smaller circuits (which allows higher speeds) but are more sensitive to things like static electricity.
Quote from: zorgon on February 10, 2015, 06:31:03 AM
Does a Faraday cage not require GROUNDING to work?
I don't think so, the fact that the cage is made of conductive material is what makes it work, as it keeps the whole cage at the same potential.
Edited to add that, even if it gets a huge charge like in the tether case (which was a special case, as it was made to gather charge), that charge remains on the outer side of the cage, everything inside is not affected.
A Faraday cage type shield is not enough in deeper space away from Earth. I know this diagram is from Wikipedia but it explains my point.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Cosmic_ray_shielding_with_secondary_radiation.jpg)
Standard spacecraft shielding, integrated into hull design, is strong protection from most solar radiation, but defeats this purpose with high-energy cosmic rays, as it simply splits this into showers of secondary particles [NASA].
Notice the caption is sourced from NASA. Basically an aluminium hull already acts like a Faraday cage as aluminium is a good conductor. NASA and ESA (European agency) have not spent millions on this if a cage is all you need in space. Surely that is obvious.
The military (or black projects) may have a classified solution but a workable AND AFFORDABLE practical solution is not in the public domain (unless I don't know about it of course but I have an interest in this and solid background knowledge of the biological effects of radiation).
We can't afford to lift massive nuclear reactors (in order to protect astronauts using electrical charge or magnetic fields), astronauts, supplies and other materials on the current budgets of NASA and ESA.
Only the black money or black projects or the military could possibly achieve this in my opinion for several reasons.
1. These projects have potentially a LOT OF MONEY so can do much more. No need to justify the cost to overtaxed electorate if they don't know about the project.
2. In secret they can take greater risks with the safety of military personnel and gamble with money without having to justify this to the public.
3. They very likely have technology which makes deep space travel possible. That technology is kept secret because it is so dangerous in the wrong hands in order to keep us safe. That technology may well be a very efficient source of energy that could power shields and thrusters for space travel. I suspect it may be a plasma fusion system but I'm only guessing.
4. The evidence from Apollo is that they quite possibly really did get to the Moon but had to fake whatever footage we have. That might be because they did it with technology that remains classified, but again I am speculating. The astronauts from Apollo 11 did not remember whether they saw stars when in deeper space. THEY HAVE TO BE LYING. Most who have been out there NEVER FORGET HOW BEAUTIFUL IT LOOKS.
Pimander knows nothing? Make up your own mind. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlXG0REiVzE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlXG0REiVzE&t=249
I thought we had some shielding in 1969. Now a NASA engineer says we need to solve the radiation problem. Well, I thought this was an interesting video....
Quote from: spacemaverick on March 17, 2015, 04:46:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlXG0REiVzE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlXG0REiVzE&t=249
Why repost the video from the opening post? ???
QuoteI thought we had some shielding in 1969. Now a NASA engineer says we need to solve the radiation problem.
And he says what's the problem, the electronics.
As I said before, today's electronics are much more sensitive than the 1960's electronics, that's the price we have to pay for the higher speed and much lower power consumption.
QuoteWell, I thought this was an interesting video....
It's as interesting as it was when
zorgon posted the first time. :P
Armap, delete the post...I made a boo boo....