Forget about recycling, riding a bike to work, taking shorter showers, and other ways that you think are helping to make the Earth a cleaner and more viable place to live. After hearing about the documentary "Cowspiracy" a few times, I finally checked it out. At first I thought that it would be another Vegan propaganda film to convince meat eaters to change their diet because animals are cute, fluffy and have feeling and shouldn't be eaten. Boy was I mistaken.
About the Film
Cowspiracy: The Sustainability Secret is a groundbreaking feature-length environmental documentary following intrepid filmmaker Kip Andersen as he uncovers the most destructive industry facing the planet today – and investigates why the world's leading environmental organizations are too afraid to talk about it.
Animal agriculture is the leading cause of deforestation, water consumption and pollution, is responsible for more greenhouse gases than the transportation industry, and is a primary driver of rainforest destruction, species extinction, habitat loss, topsoil erosion, ocean "dead zones," and virtually every other environmental ill. Yet it goes on, almost entirely unchallenged.
As Andersen approaches leaders in the environmental movement, he increasingly uncovers what appears to be an intentional refusal to discuss the issue of animal agriculture, while industry whistleblowers and watchdogs warn him of the risks to his freedom and even his life if he dares to persist.
As eye-opening as Blackfish and as inspiring as An Inconvenient Truth, this shocking yet humorous documentary reveals the absolutely devastating environmental impact large-scale factory farming has on our planet, and offers a path to global sustainability for a growing population.
(http://cdn1.theodysseyonline.com/files/2015/10/02/635793970357963827-1387270405_Cowspiracy.imgopt1000x70.jpg)
Cowspiracy : The Sustainability Secret
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3hqrlMH5Pc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3hqrlMH5Pc
In the next 3 decades, food demand is expected to grow by 70% and the Earths population will be approaching 10 billion. There is no way to continue on the same path that we are on now with agriculture and cattle farming so what's next??
Future Foods
Or perhaps "Frankenfood" is a term that might be thrown around.
The world's population is growing, while our resources shrink. By 2050, total food demand is expected to increase 70% and food prices could rise by as much as 100%. Meanwhile, the foodie movement is well underway, with chefs and home cooks seeking the freshest and purest local ingredients. Meet the teams of scientists and startups jumping into the food fray, motivated by everything from creating the perfect pepper to saving the world.
http://www.businessinsider.com/scientists-and-startups-changing-how-we-eat-2014-7
Would you eat meat that is grown in a lab where cells are extracted from an actual cow and then grown into a burger or a steak?
The Future Meat Will Be Full of Lab Grown Meat
In 2013, the world's first lab-grown burger was unveiled to the world. It carried a $330,000 price tag, and apparently, it wasn't all that tasty. But the scientists behind the idea have been hard at work, and artificial meat that's both cost-effective and palatable may arrive sooner than we think.
It's not just cow-free beef burgers on the future menu — several groups around the world are attempting to clone chicken breasts and fish fillets, as well. Why do scientists want to grow meat in vats instead of on animals, and how close are we to actually accomplishing it?
http://gizmodo.com/the-future-will-be-full-of-lab-grown-meat-1720874704
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u468xY1T8fw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u468xY1T8fw
Would you eat food that is fused with insects like crickets and meal worms? Don't worry, it'll look like tasty snacks and cookies and meat...but in the back of your mind you'll know that you're eating creepy crawlers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiBH0tHDY7s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiBH0tHDY7s
How about a burger and other beef products that are actually made from plants?
Forget Lab Beef, Impossible Foods' 100% Plant-Based Cheeseburger Is Our Future
Impossible Foods, the makers of a wholly plant-based cheeseburger, isn't just making a veggie burger. And that distinction is enough for a party of fairly powerful backers including Bill Gates and Swiss bank UBS, to funnel $108 million into making that burger an accessible reality.
The company says the burger will have no cholesterol, antibiotics, or hormones, but will boast the taste of real meat, due to the fats, proteins, and nutrients separated and drawn from various plants, grains, and legumes combined with amino acids to make it as close to meat as possible. The company plans to have these patties out on the market by 2016.
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/forget-lab-beef-impossible-foods-100-plant-based-cheeseburger-is-our-future
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LdbpqLkH6k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LdbpqLkH6k
Is there a list of sources for the information on the video? Or is it just another video for which we have to believe in what they say?
Quote from: ArMaP on October 22, 2015, 03:47:49 PM
Is there a list of sources for the information on the video? Or is it just another video for which we have to believe in what they say?
oops, meant to post that with the video in the OP, Thanks
The science and research done on the true impacts of animal agriculture is always growing. The statistics used in the film were based on the best information we had available while producing the film. We will continually update this list with further resources as they become available
http://www.cowspiracy.com/facts/
Thanks. :)
Star Trek-style replicator serves up meals in 30 seconds
Baking has never been faster and easier:
1. Pick your favorite Genie Smart Baking Pod (see below)
2. Place it into the Genie
3. Twiddle your thumbs for 30 seconds and... it's ready!
At the end of the 30 sec baking process, the Genie door will pop open, unleashing the mind blowing aroma of a chef. Inside you'll find your personalized freshly baked dish, exactly the way you pictured it, exploding with your specifically chosen flavor! Bon Appetite
www.geniethefreshway.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULTVgwcq3m4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULTVgwcq3m4
One question: do they have a solution for the problem in the video?
These problems are what started me looking at food. My husband and I forced ourselves to not ignore the things that are hard to look at. we became vegetarian years ago after realizing it was the only thing we could do, but it became and adventure!
We found that fixing great meals and learning new foods and ways to use them was actually fun.I make some really "meat" tasting meatloaf, burgers sausage for our pizza. We now like to know what is in the food we eat and where all of the ingredients comes from. I feel most anyone would feel the same if they did not avoid the truths and really take a look at what is in the food today.
Quote from: Dyna on October 23, 2015, 01:13:31 AM
we became vegetarian years ago after realizing it was the only thing we could do, but it became and adventure!
The only thing you could do for what? ???
JAPANESE SOLUTION
Shit Burger Japanese Researcher Creates Artificial Meat From Human Feces
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fkFg-4Xh_I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fkFg-4Xh_I
THAILAND'S SOLUTION
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy5pBI8WvK8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy5pBI8WvK8
As for COW FARTS well maybe we should find a way to collect the gas and use it for fuel :P It is METHANE after all :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpa8Oz9DRbY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpa8Oz9DRbY
Quote from: ArMaP on October 22, 2015, 09:26:28 PM
One question: do they have a solution for the problem in the video?
Yes, stop eating meat and dairy products.
Quote from: zorgon on October 23, 2015, 10:40:35 AM
As for COW FARTS well maybe we should find a way to collect the gas and use it for fuel :P It is METHANE after all :D
From what I could see on this FAO PDF (http://ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/010/a0701e/a0701e.pdf) that is listed as one of the sources for the video, the biggest source of methane is from the manure treatment, so they already have it under control.
Quote from: dreb13 on October 23, 2015, 12:21:17 PM
Yes, stop eating meat and dairy products.
That's not a solution, as human beings are not supposed to be vegetarian.
Quote from: ArMaP on October 23, 2015, 12:25:31 PM
That's not a solution, as human beings are not supposed to be vegetarian.
Unfortunately, that IS the solution.
That is why the "Food of the Future" will be our go to source of nutrition, rather than the conventional means of beef agriculture.
Quote from: dreb13 on October 23, 2015, 01:48:13 PM
Unfortunately, that IS the solution.
Humans are omnivorous, so that's not the solution, it's just marketing.
Obviously, this is a "global warmers" platform, by claiming humans will become extinct because of natural conditions. Well, I suppose getting rid of all cows could be done, except maybe for India, and other places that consider their cows to be sacred. And then getting rid of every living animal that farts, except for humans, would likely be next.
If only humans were left as being the only remaining farters, can we even envision how still devastating that will be to our planet - a proposition of soon having 10 billion humans on the planet, with each averaging 2 or 3 farts per day.........Wow what a global warming stinking place!!! Can we suppose that as the super intelligent robots come into being, THEY may very likely see that all human farters are detrimental to planet objectives too, and thus will see to it that all humans are properly disposed of, for the benefit of the planet??
But, just getting rid of all of the farters will be the easy challenge - getting rid of all of the natural gas on the planet will be a little more difficult. As natural gas is about 75% methane (CH4), it does pretty much permeate the planet. And the planet does do its own "farting", as its natural gas/methane is just naturally released as part of nature's process, bubbling up and out in various places.
So, maybe if man simply detonates the planet to begin wth, that such action would be a much simpler approach to ridding the planet of methane gas!
ie - what a stupid line of thought, but of course, whatever makes the human caused global warming religion crowd happy....... :o :o :o :o
(http://s4.postimg.org/wszrsxexp/Screen_Shot_2015_10_23_at_9_58_40_AM.jpg)
Quote from: ArMaP on October 23, 2015, 02:24:20 AM
The only thing you could do for what? ???
;) I know you get it but to clarify we simply could not ingest the food any longer we had been as we became nauseated at the thought.
:(
Quote from: ArMaP on October 23, 2015, 02:56:43 PM
Humans are omnivorous, so that's not the solution, it's just marketing.
Some disagree and many were our worlds brightest. Personally I feel it represents growth in the right direction.
Quote6. Albert Einstein, the greatest scientist of the 20th century, widely regarded as one of the most ingenious men of all time. On vegetarianism, he said:
"Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."
"Our task must be to [widen] our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
And the day he became a vegetarian, he wrote in his diary:
"So I am living without fats, without meat, without fish, but am feeling quite well this way. It always seems to me that man was not born to be a carnivore."
http://www.elephantjournal.com/2011/02/the-worlds-greatest-geniuses-are-vegetarians/
Quote from: Dyna on October 24, 2015, 09:09:28 PM
Some disagree and many were our worlds brightest. Personally I feel it represents growth in the right direction.
http://www.elephantjournal.com/2011/02/the-worlds-greatest-geniuses-are-vegetarians/
Actually Dyna, I agree with you and Einstein pretty much relative to a predominantly vegetarian/non 4-legged meat diet, relative to the better health of we humans. But, I do believe that some things from animals are essential/good for us too, such as milk and butter and fish. But from a health standpoint, and time to certain death considerations, it almost is, WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE!! ?? :) We are all destined to waste away and die anyway, so at max, better eating might simply give us better health until we do die. I do now eat mostly vegetables and fruit, but still a little meat too! :))
But.......you and all can have my portion of TOFU!! :)
Quote from: Dyna on October 24, 2015, 08:59:57 PM
;) I know you get it but to clarify we simply could not ingest the food any longer we had been as we became nauseated at the thought.
When I ask is because I don't get it, I don't play games.
Quote from: Dyna on October 24, 2015, 09:09:28 PM
Some disagree and many were our worlds brightest. Personally I feel it represents growth in the right direction.
http://www.elephantjournal.com/2011/02/the-worlds-greatest-geniuses-are-vegetarians/
It's not a question of opinion, is a fact that humans are omnivorous.
Quote"So I am living without fats, without meat, without fish, but am feeling quite well this way. It always seems to me that man was not born to be a carnivore."
If the above quote is real then it shows that, besides being a brilliant scientist, he was ignorant about human biology, humans are not carnivores.
Quote from: rdunk on October 24, 2015, 09:57:43 PM
Actually Dyna, I agree with you and Einstein pretty much relative to a predominantly vegetarian/non 4-legged meat diet, relative to the better health of we humans. But, I do believe that some things from animals are essential/good for us too, such as milk and butter and fish. But from a health standpoint, and time to certain death considerations, it almost is, WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE!! ?? :) We are all destined to waste away and die anyway, so at max, better eating might simply give us better health until we do die. I do now eat mostly vegetables and fruit, but still a little meat too! :))
But.......you and all can have my portion of TOFU!! :)
It makes a difference to the animals that suffer (watch a few documentaries)
It makes a difference to the planet.
QuoteAnimal agriculture takes up an incredible 70% of all agricultural land, and a whopping 30% of the land surface of the planet.
As a result, farmed animals are probably the biggest cause of slashing and burning of the world's forests.
The United States' most influential environmental group, Environmental Defense Fund, has calculated that if every American skipped one meal of chicken per week and substituted vegetarian foods, the carbon dioxide savings would be the same as if the nation removed more than 500,000 cars from U.S. roads.
http://www.pomona.edu/administration/dining/health-wellness/vegan-vegetarian
Quote from: ArMaP on October 24, 2015, 10:03:52 PM
It's not a question of opinion, is a fact that humans are omnivorous.
If the above quote is real then it shows that, besides being a brilliant scientist, he was ignorant about human biology, humans are not carnivores.
Actually he agrees with you as he said "
Quoteseems to me that man was not born to be a carnivore
:P
The point really is Man can change and live well as proved by many intelligent people and athletes around the world. Humans are no longer living in the wild. Old habits die hard.
QuoteAccording to the American Dietetic Association, the medical community realizes that there is a positive correlation between a vegetarian lifestyle and risk reduction for chronic degenerative diseases, such as obesity, heart disease, high blood pressure, diabetes, colon cancer, lung cancer, breast cancer, prostate cancer, pancreatic cancer, constipation, diabetes, diverticular disease, fatigue, gallstones, osteoporosis, premenstrual syndrome, stroke and more.
http://www.pomona.edu/administration/dining/health-wellness/vegan-vegetarian
Carnivores or not, we humans are not really designed in a way that best suits the eating of meats. I have seen this such statement over and over during the years. We are designed to eat as herbivores, and not designed to eat meats, but, yes we do, and just maybe therein lies so many of our basic body problems.
There are many many different articles on the net that do support this thought. Of course some of these thoughts are presented by the Vegan communities. :)
Here is a pic on the whys of basic such thoughts, and the link for these thoughts and others on this.
http://www.vegan-nutritionista.com/humans-are-herbivores.html
(http://s22.postimg.org/jiaw8xsr5/Screen_Shot_2015_10_24_at_4_33_17_PM.jpg)
Quote from: ArMaP on October 24, 2015, 10:01:53 PM
When I ask is because I don't get it, I don't play games.
QuoteMy husband and I forced ourselves to not ignore the things that are hard to look at. We became vegetarian years ago after realizing it was the only thing we could do, but it became and adventure!
I am sorry I just assumed this was clear that the things hard to look at in the food industry as in ingredients animal abuse of the most horrific kinds these things that are well known today but many will not make themselves delve deeper into because it is not comfortable.
I do believe the more intelligent people will not hide their heads in the sand but will look at the full picture no matter how unpleasant and things will change drastically someday and we will all follow in the footsteps of those greats.
This continues to be my wish :)
Quote8. Brian Greene, Witten's foremost protégé (he was on The Colbert Report last week). He refuted Einstein's theory that space can stretch but not tear, and by age nine, could multiply thirty-digit numbers in his head. In an interview on science, morality, and vegetarianism for The Supreme Master Ching Hai News, Greene stated:
Q: Why do you think so many of the greatest geniuses have been vegetarian?
G: From my limited experience, vegetarians typically are people who are willing to challenge the usual, accepted order of things. Moreover, they're often people willing to sacrifice their own pleasures in pursuit of what they believe is right. These same qualities are often what's needed to make great breakthroughs in the arts and sciences.
Q: Why do you think other scientists are still not vegetarian?
G: I would ask, more generally, why the vast majority of people are not vegetarian. I think the answer is that most people don't question the practice of eating meat since they always have. Many of these people care about animals and the environment, some deeply. But for some reason—force of habit, cultural norms, resistance to change—there is a fundamental disconnect whereby these feelings don't translate into changes of behavior.
Q: What inspired you to become a vegetarian?
G: Quite literally, it was a dish—spare ribs—that my mother cooked when I was nine years old. The ribs made the connection between the meat and the animal from which it came direct; I was horrified and declared I'd never eat meat again. And I never have. Going vegan happened later. I visited an animal rescue farm in upstate New York and learned much about the dairy industry which was so disturbing that I could not continue to support it. Within days I gave up all dairy.
http://www.elephantjournal.com/2011/02/the-worlds-greatest-geniuses-are-vegetarians/
Quote from: Dyna on October 24, 2015, 10:44:49 PM
Actually he agrees with you as he said " :P
Not really, as it's written in a way that implies that humans are carnivores.
QuoteThe point really is Man can change and live well as proved by many intelligent people and athletes around the world. Humans are no longer living in the wild. Old habits die hard.
Being omnivorous is not a habit, is how we are made.
That's why we are supposed to get vitamin B12 from meat, Omega-3 acids from fish and calcium from milk (although there are many sources of calcium). Besides that, there are also things that, when taken from an animal source are more easily absorbed by our body, like iron and zinc, so people with a vegetarian diet need more of those two than a person on an omnivorous diet.
Quote from: Dyna on October 24, 2015, 10:55:28 PM
I am sorry I just assumed this was clear that the things hard to look at in the food industry as in ingredients animal abuse of the most horrific kinds these things that are well known today but many will not make themselves delve deeper into because it is not comfortable.
You shouldn't assume people understand what you mean, specially if you write sentences without any punctuation like the one above. To me, it's extremely difficult to understand, as in Portuguese we have a different way of connecting sentences and without punctuation I tend to connect (and break) sentences in the wrong places. :)
QuoteI do believe the more intelligent people will not hide their heads in the sand but will look at the full picture no matter how unpleasant and things will change drastically someday and we will all follow in the footsteps of those greats.
So, if we have a different point of view we are not intelligent, is that it? :P
Quote from: rdunk on October 24, 2015, 10:45:04 PM
Carnivores or not, we humans are not really designed in a way that best suits the eating of meats. I have seen this such statement over and over during the years. We are designed to eat as herbivores, and not designed to eat meats, but, yes we do, and just maybe therein lies so many of our basic body problems.
Then why do we need vitamin B12 found in meat? And why do we absorb better the iron and zinc from meat than from vegetables?
QuoteHere is a pic on the whys of basic such thoughts, and the link for these thoughts and others on this.
http://www.vegan-nutritionista.com/humans-are-herbivores.html
(http://s22.postimg.org/jiaw8xsr5/Screen_Shot_2015_10_24_at_4_33_17_PM.jpg)
As usual they compare vegetarians with carnivores, ignoring what we really are, omnivorous. ::)
Quote from: ArMaP on October 25, 2015, 12:25:01 AM
Then why do we need vitamin B12 found in meat? And why do we absorb better the iron and zinc from meat than from vegetables?
As usual they compare vegetarians with carnivores, ignoring what we really are, omnivorous. ::)
Most of the people i know don't eat meat, their children were raised without meat we can change.
Quotevegans are taking their B12 from the same source as every other animal on the planet - micro-organisms - without causing suffering to any sentient being or causing environmental damage.
Quote from: Dyna on October 26, 2015, 12:53:49 AM
Most of the people i know don't eat meat, their children were raised without meat we can change.
Why, because some people say so? No, I will keep on acting according to nature and not to what some people tell me. :)
PS: vitamin B12 is created by micro-organisms that we do not have on our bodies, if we have to use methods that are not natural that should prove that it's not a natural thing.
The Human body requires a certain amount of PROTEINS. These proteins are created by the body from Amino Acids
You cannot get ALL the amino acids you need from a Vegan diet
You CAN from a vegetarian diet as they eat DAIRY products\
BTW COWS also need meat and eat several hundred pounds a year :P
Yes they do :P in the form of APHIDS and other insects on the plants they eat
::)
Quote from: ArMaP on October 26, 2015, 01:00:22 AM
Why, because some people say so? No, I will keep on acting according to nature and not to what some people tell me. :)
PS: vitamin B12 is created by micro-organisms that we do not have on our bodies, if we have to use methods that are not natural that should prove that it's not a natural thing.
Natural ::), ok well I don't think many people eat natural today!
In the first place I read a study which said that a large number of American children in cities think Beef comes from the store. ??? If you are going to eat another living creature, it certainly deserves some respect (have you seen the American process for raising and slaughtering cows?) :'(
A person who will take a life to overfill their belly should at least see the animal killed and gutted or will a child want "chicken nuggets" after they themselves cut the chickens neck and gut and clean it?
I raised chickens and pigs and was there for the slaughter of those and cows and watched them all fight for their lives and scream in their fear. :-[
Having a petting zoos where children feed the farm animals and the children and parents say "how precious, how cute" but then not realizing the same creatures are what is so neatly packaged for them in the supermarket and ground and pressed to nuggets at fast food causes lack of respect.
What is natural for evolving humans? Polyester cloths made from oil? So B-12 can be lab made...
Things that don't change don't last. We have the means to change and make the planet healthier but those who don't want that should in the very least respect the lives they take IMO.
QuoteThough meat consumption in the U.S. has dropped off slightly in recent years, at 270.7 pounds per person a year, we still eat more meat per person here than in almost any other country on the planet.
QuoteConsequences of increased global meat consumption on the global environment -- trade in virtual water, energy & nutrients
QuoteSo much of the problem comes down to the individual consumer, he stressed, adding that one solution could be to get people in developed countries to eat less meat and to consider how and where the meat that they do eat is produced.
https://woods.stanford.edu/environmental-venture-projects/consequences-increased-global-meat-consumption-global-environment
Quote from: Dyna on October 26, 2015, 11:41:35 PM
In the first place I read a study which said that a large number of American children in cities think Beef comes from the store. ???
I read some years ago that someone asked school children (I think it was in California) and most didn't know that the food called "chicken" was an animal.
QuoteIf you are going to eat another living creature, it certainly deserves some respect (have you seen the American process for raising and slaughtering cows?) :'(
I agree, but why should other people suffer the consequences of what some people in the US do? Trying to force vegetarianism on people just because the meat industry in the US only sees money is unrealistic.
QuoteA person who will take a life to overfill their belly should at least see the animal killed and gutted or will a child want "chicken nuggets" after they themselves cut the chickens neck and gut and clean it?
I helped my grandmother kill chickens and rabbits many times, and never had a problem eating the chickens (I didn't eat the rabbits because I don't like rabbit).
QuoteWhat is natural for evolving humans? Polyester cloths made from oil? So B-12 can be lab made...
I avoid using synthetic cloth, the body doesn't breath the same way under those, as synthetic fibres are not porous like natural fibres, and the difference is noticeable.
The fact that we can have now synthetic sources of some nutrients doesn't mean that we are herbivores, we are still omnivores.
QuoteThings that don't change don't last. We have the means to change and make the planet healthier but those who don't want that should in the very least respect the lives they take IMO.
And what about the lives of the plants, they are alive too.
Yes plants have feelings and show fear as well. We di that experiment back in high school with a galvanometer...
Vegetarians dismiss it :P because the screaming is not audible to human ears... but nevertheless they DO scream.
Place a galvanometer on a plant and think "I am going to shred your leaves and break your branches" and watch the meter go crazy... So in effect plants can read minds
They also prefer classical music over hard rock :D
The Secret Life of PlantsQuoteOn a night in 1966 interrogation specialist Cleve Backster taught how to perform lie detection to policemen. On a whim, Backster attached electrodes of a galvanometer to a nearby dracaena plant. A galvanometer is an instrument that detects minute electric currents, often used as a part of the polygraph lie detector. When Backster began to water the plant, the galvanometer did not show the same growth in electrical conductivity as he would have expected. Instead, the needle of the galvanometer started to move downward, a response often only seen with surges of human emotion. Caught completely by surprise, Backster started formulating ideas about plant conscience. Because he knew that that some of the strongest emotional stimuli came from life-threatening situations, Backster thought about burning the actual leaf the electrodes were attached to. Before he could reach for a match, the tracing pattern on the graph swept upwards as if in response to the thought of threat. These 10 short minutes changed Backster's life and gave him the idea of plant sentience—an idea so grand that it later was coined into the term "the Backster effect."
Harvard Science Reviewhttp://harvardsciencereview.com/2014/01/22/the-secret-life-of-plants/
So.. any Vegetarian that is trying to bully meat eaters but ignoring the torment they cause plants is a
HIPPOTWIT ::)
QuoteVegetarians dismiss it :P because the screaming is not audible to human ears... but nevertheless they DO scream.
First off I am hoping for change but I don't want to force anything on anyone.
Second I don't believe many vegetarians dismiss plants lives but plants mostly live a normal and cared for life and many kinds are not even killed for our food, faced with the treatment of animals today compared to plants, plants are the clear choice for me.
Quote from: Dyna on October 27, 2015, 04:48:48 AM
many kinds are not even killed for our food, faced with the treatment of animals today compared to plants, plants are the clear choice for me.
Have you seen what a Harvester does to corn plants?
(http://candysdirt.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/home_alone_macaulay_culkin_kevin_mccallister_boy_fear_shout_fright_346_1280x1024-300x240.jpg)
I respect your choice but it sounds like your willing to accept plant abuse :P
Now excuse me while I satisfy the urge to try to eat a Jethro Burger
(https://notrealfood.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/jethrosandwich.jpeg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31a6MODlG7L.jpg)
The main focus of the Cowspiracy documentary is that the current process of cattle being raised for meat and dairy consumption is not sustainable and requires an tremendous amount of resources to create a final product.
The amount of land that is required to raise cattle to graze on, or raise crops in order to FEED the cattle is entirely too wasteful when you look at the growing population of Hu-mons on Earth. The amount of water that is provided for a cow to drink (30-50 gallons per day) along with the water needed to grow crops in order to FEED cows, (not Hu-mons) is equally wasteful. Lets not get into all of the runoff from all of the waste that is a byproduct of the agriculture business which contributes to even more environmental problems.
The math is pretty simple with this problem. More people eating beef = less land and water for those same people. As the population increases, there is less and less resources to go around for Hu-mons since the cows are consuming all of it.
That is why there is a need for "Future Foods" where land can be used to grow plants, the plants can then be infused with muscle tissue from stem cells from cows in order to make a better tasting "veggie burger." The amount of land that is required to accomplish this is vastly smaller than the land that is needed to raise cattle.
As a meat eater, I would welcome any kind of alternative that is nutritious and tastes like meat. However, its hard to conform to that line of thinking whenever I also feel that food should be "natural." I don't feel right with GMO's in our crops and I would have to be thoroughly convinced that beef that is grown in a lab is not harmful.
With all of the talk on this site about Secret Space Programs and Aliens, you'd have to wonder just what all of those spacemen are eating when they're flying around out there. I doubt that they have an abattoir on their ships.
Quote from: dreb13 on October 27, 2015, 02:09:49 PM
The amount of land that is required to raise cattle to graze on, or raise crops in order to FEED the cattle is entirely too wasteful when you look at the growing population of Hu-mons on Earth. The amount of water that is provided for a cow to drink (30-50 gallons per day) along with the water needed to grow crops in order to FEED cows, (not Hu-mons) is equally wasteful. Lets not get into all of the runoff from all of the waste that is a byproduct of the agriculture business which contributes to even more environmental problems.
From what I could see on that FAO report that is one of the sources for Cowspiracy, there's a big difference in efficiency of the several methods used, so an adjustment of the methods would be a first logical step.
QuoteThe math is pretty simple with this problem. More people eating beef = less land and water for those same people. As the population increases, there is less and less resources to go around for Hu-mons since the cows are consuming all of it.
I don't know if the math is that simple, how much land would we need to grow the vegetables needed for the whole population? Meat may be more wasteful in production but is also a better source of protein and energy.
QuoteThat is why there is a need for "Future Foods" where land can be used to grow plants, the plants can then be infused with muscle tissue from stem cells from cows in order to make a better tasting "veggie burger." The amount of land that is required to accomplish this is vastly smaller than the land that is needed to raise cattle.
Do you have a source for that last sentence? I have been looking for it but haven't found one yet.
QuoteAs a meat eater, I would welcome any kind of alternative that is nutritious and tastes like meat. However, its hard to conform to that line of thinking whenever I also feel that food should be "natural." I don't feel right with GMO's in our crops and I would have to be thoroughly convinced that beef that is grown in a lab is not harmful.
I agree, that applies to all the alternatives, we first should have enough data to be able to make a choice.
QuoteWith all of the talk on this site about Secret Space Programs and Aliens, you'd have to wonder just what all of those spacemen are eating when they're flying around out there. I doubt that they have an abattoir on their ships.
Maybe there aren't any living beings flying around, that would solve that problem. ;)
deleted duplicate reply
Quote from: ArMaP on October 27, 2015, 03:38:23 PM
I don't know if the math is that simple, how much land would we need to grow the vegetables needed for the whole population? Meat may be more wasteful in production but is also a better source of protein and energy.
Do you have a source for that last sentence? I have been looking for it but haven't found one yet.
Why going meatless is important"Going vegetarian is the easiest and quickest way to lower your carbon footprint, reduce pollution, and save energy and water. That's because meat production requires staggering amounts of land, water, and energy, compared to plant foods. Let's explore that now."
Gallons of water required to produce one pound
of various foods
(http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/images/waterchart.gif)
Number of people whose caloric needs
can be met on 2.5 acres of land
for the following food
(http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/images/landchart.gif)
source: http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/environment.html
As the Earths population increases, the amount of land needed to raise cattle increases as well.
Quote from: ArMaP on October 27, 2015, 03:38:23 PM
Maybe there aren't any living beings flying around, that would solve that problem. ;)
(http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/BcP9hu9CEAAT2eN-600x447.jpg)
We're getting there! ;) 8)
BULL SHIT :P Literally :P
In California they just announced that they will ban Avocado growing as they require TOO MUCH WATER Since Ca produces about 90% of the worlds Avocado's kiss your guacamole goodbye
Avocados Aren't The Only Trendy Food That May Be Endangered Because Of The Droughthttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/23/avocados-california-drought_n_7127666.html
Meanwhile on the Bundy Ranch his cows just roam the DESERT and survive just fine finding all the water they need.
I am calling "Vegan Propaganda" on this one :P
I will try this again..............(I posted, edited the post which became 2 posts, deleted 1 of them, which then somehow deleted them both!) >:(
The two videos I am posting here do pretty much have the answer for what needs to happen, relative to this OP. These two long-time professional men, from very different perspectives have come to very similar conclusions about what we need to do. They both present their information in a way that is effective and is easy to understand.
The conclusion for both of these is..............We need to quit the western diet, which is heavily laden with meats, and begin a diet of eating "whole plant foods"!! The results for our bodies is proof positive!! And these presentations are totally about the negatives and positives of our eating, and the why's.
These are true lecture length presentations!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6pLRdawBw0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V95CCw-TPA
Quote from: rdunk on October 27, 2015, 06:33:48 PM
The conclusion for both of these is..............We need to quit the western diet, which is heavily laden with meats, and begin a diet of eating "whole plant foods"!!
That depends on the meaning of "western diet" and "whole plant foods".
If by "western diet" they are talking about the main US diet then I suppose that part is correct, as, from what I have seen and read about, it's mostly wrong.
If by "whole plant foods" they mean eating only plants then I disagree, for the reasons I posted on previous posts.
QuoteThese are true lecture length presentations!
And that's why I will ignore them, I don't have the time for that.
Since we are supposed to be a RESEARCH forum :P
We need to actually do the homework
Back in High School ( many many Moons ago :P ) in Biology class we studied proteins and amino acids
Proteins are the 'flesh builders" Back then it was taught that the human body requires 49 different proteins to be 100% healthy. These proteins are synthesized by the body and are created from Amino acids
There are NINE Essential Amino Acids that cannot be synthesized by the body and must come from outside sources Some of those are NOT available in plant sources.
If one of the nonessential amino acids is less than needed for an individual the utilization of other amino acids will be hindered and thus protein synthesis will be less than what it usually is, even in the presence of adequate total nitrogen intake.
Protein deficiency has been shown to affect all of the body's organs and many of its systems, including the brain and brain function of infants and young children; the immune system, thus elevating risk of infection; gut mucosal function and permeability, which affects absorption and vulnerability to systemic disease; and kidney function. The physical signs of protein deficiency include edema, failure to thrive in infants and children, poor musculature, dull skin, and thin and fragile hair. Biochemical changes reflecting protein deficiency include low serum albumin and low serum transferring
In a nutshell... :P As kids are growing up they NEED proteins and amino acids from ANIMAL sources. This is even true of BOVINES ( grass eating cows :P) and that is why cows have MILK (and eat tons of bugs in the form of aphids etc on the grass they eat)
You do NOT have to kill an animal to get these essential amino acids... dairy products and eggs are enough (like the Hindu vegetarian diet) but Vegans denying this are guilty of child abuse
Most diseases and sluggishness of the brain can be linked to the foods we eat. A Vegan diet does NOT lead to perfect humans :P
But as I said one does not have to kill to get the needed amino acids... but you DO need them. Plant proteins are not the same as animal proteins
One big part of this problem is when people think all people around the world act in the same way.
That FAO PDF that is one of the sources for Cowspiracy says that the average meat consumption in 2003 ranged from just 5 kg per person in India to 123 kg per person in the US.
I looked at what we eat at my home and got an average of a little less than 30 kg per person per year. Since I found out that I am diabetic I changed my eating habits, but didn't reduce the amount of meat I eat, so my average consumption of meat has remained the same for several years.
Also, we only eat beef (on average) two days each month, as most of the meat we eat is chicken.
We also eat fish, but not as much as most people in Portugal.
To me, the biggest problem with the production of meat is the industrialization of the process, as the original process of raising cattle and plants on the same place was more natural, with the parts of the plants that people do not eat being consumed by the animals and the manure from the animals being used to help grow the plants, so the problem is not the production of meat, its the concentration of huge numbers of animals in just one place and the corresponding concentration of just one or two plant species in huge areas, so if we change the way food is produced we could have big gains.
Just for the record, the information presented in the videos I posted are not opinion based, but rather it is fact based, relative to their specific research and their many years of working with the details of diet related issues. From the standpoint of the research, it makes no difference whether eating beef or chicken protein. Seemingly no real problems if eaten in only small cumulative amounts, but with the Western diet, meats are a mainstay of meals, normally resulting in large amounts cumulative - the large amounts showing in studies to contribute to significant health issues.
Quote from: rdunk on October 28, 2015, 02:52:23 AM
Seemingly no real problems if eaten in only small cumulative amounts, but with the Western diet, meats are a mainstay of meals, normally resulting in large amounts cumulative - the large amounts showing in studies to contribute to significant health issues.
There's no such thing as "western diet". :)
Edited to be more specific: as I posted above, in my home we eat around 30 kg of meat per year, while the average for Portugal is 91 and for Denmark almost 160.
Edited again to add that the 91 and 160 above were taken fro Wikipedia's List of countries by meat consumption (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_meat_consumption), and it shows "per capita meat carcass mass availability", not real meat consumption.
30 KG doesn't sound like a lot over a whole year...
Quote from: ArMaP on October 28, 2015, 10:08:28 AM
There's no such thing as "western diet". :)
Edited to be more specific: as I posted above, in my home we eat around 30 kg of meat per year, while the average for Portugal is 91 and for Denmark almost 160.
Edited again to add that the 91 and 160 above were taken fro Wikipedia's List of countries by meat consumption (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_meat_consumption), and it shows "per capita meat carcass mass availability", not real meat consumption.
Well ArMaP, if you would simply watch the videos, then you would know what a "western diet is", especially the video by T Collin Campbell, who has been involved in this subject for a long long time. He really does narrow the problem down to "meat", and makes it very clear relative to why that is so. He presents the evidence that people in countries who do not eat meat, do not suffer the health problems of people who do eat a large amount of meat.
Or, I suppose you could watch the videos, and then at least have the knowledge to debunk them, if for some reason you do take exception. 8)
Quote from: rdunk on October 28, 2015, 08:13:08 PM
Well ArMaP, if you would simply watch the videos, then you would know what a "western diet is", especially the video by T Collin Campbell, who has been involved in this subject for a long long time.
Or someone that already watched the videos could tell me. ;)
QuoteHe really does narrow the problem down to "meat", and makes it very clear relative to why that is so. He presents the evidence that people in countries who do not eat meat, do not suffer the health problems of people who do eat a large amount of meat.
I suppose people like the Maasai should all be dead, as they have a carnivore diet. :)
QuoteOr, I suppose you could watch the videos, and then at least have the knowledge to debunk them, if for some reason you do take exception. 8)
Not a chance I am going to spend more than 3 hours watching videos.
QuoteHave you seen what a Harvester does to corn plants?
::) well like most seeds we eat the plant reaches its end of life span before harvest. Many seed are designed to be eaten so they can be spread. :)
Quote from: zorgon on October 26, 2015, 03:45:58 AM
The Human body requires a certain amount of PROTEINS. These proteins are created by the body from Amino Acids
You cannot get ALL the amino acids you need from a Vegan diet
You CAN from a vegetarian diet as they eat DAIRY products\
BTW COWS also need meat and eat several hundred pounds a year :P
Yes they do :P in the form of APHIDS and other insects on the plants they eat
::)
Clearly people live full and functioning lives as Vegans also. My niece who is a genius and Lawyer has never eaten an animal product since birth (she is also healthy and lovely), her sister works for the .gov in science and is the same. I know many professional people who are vegans.
QuoteAs a meat eater, I would welcome any kind of alternative that is nutritious and tastes like meat. However, its hard to conform to that line of thinking whenever I also feel that food should be "natural." I don't feel right with GMO's in our crops and I would have to be thoroughly convinced that beef that is grown in a lab is not harmful.
I think you should ask if beef grown in a lab would be "less' harmful, there is no longer anything natural about most meat products people eat today.
Quote from: zorgon on October 27, 2015, 09:01:56 PM
Since we are supposed to be a RESEARCH forum :P
We need to actually do the homework
Back in High School ( many many Moons ago :P ) in Biology class we studied proteins and amino acids
Proteins are the 'flesh builders" Back then it was taught that the human body requires 49 different proteins to be 100% healthy. These proteins are synthesized by the body and are created from Amino acids
There are NINE Essential Amino Acids that cannot be synthesized by the body and must come from outside sources Some of those are NOT available in plant sources.
Most diseases and sluggishness of the brain can be linked to the foods we eat. A Vegan diet does NOT lead to perfect humans :P
But as I said one does not have to kill to get the needed amino acids... but you DO need them. Plant proteins are not the same as animal proteins
A lot more is known today then back in our highschool days! i am being totally honest in saying I know many vegans and they were raised that way and they are exceptional people in every way, I wish i could show you!
QuoteThis should not be problematic, due to the growing number and availability of fortified vegan foods that can help children meet all nutrient needs. Therefore, with appropriate food choices, vegan diets can be adequate for children at all ages.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11424545
I use pasture raised chicken eggs as they are simply wasted if something doesn't eat them but the truth about milk today is sickening and I avoid it. But you can live well without even these animal products.
QuoteYes, meat and eggs are complete proteins, and beans and nuts aren't. But humans don't need every essential amino acid in every bite of food in every meal they eat; we only need a sufficient amount of each amino acid every day . Most dieticians believe that plant-based diets contain such a wide variety of amino acid profiles that vegans are virtually guaranteed to get all of their amino acids with very little effort .
http://greatist.com/health/complete-vegetarian-proteins
All can be gotten in a supplement.
We are changeable and changing!
Human Ancestors Were Grass Gourmands
http://news.sciencemag.org/2012/11/human-ancestors-were-grass-gourmands
QuoteTo me, the biggest problem with the production of meat is the industrialization of the process, as the original process of raising cattle and plants on the same place was more natural, with the parts of the plants that people do not eat being consumed by the animals and the manure from the animals being used to help grow the plants, so the problem is not the production of meat, its the concentration of huge numbers of animals in just one place and the corresponding concentration of just one or two plant species in huge areas, so if we change the way food is produced we could have big gains.
Very true but I don't see a return to the family farm unless the whole earth has a disaster and has to start over.
Portugal imports beef
QuoteThe beef consumption per capita are higher in Portugal
(18.4 kg vs 16.9 kg beef/person/year, in 2006 and 2012
respectively compared with the EU average (?11-12 kg
in the same years), and self-sufficiency in beef has
decreased from 54.4% in 2006 to 52.0% in 2012 [3, 5].
People there are concerned also it seems but I can see there is more human raising of the animals for the non-imported meat.
QuoteSome fears about meat consumption are linked with
indiscriminate use of hormones, the use of several
chemicals and prophylactic antibiotics.
https://repositorio.ipcb.pt/bitstream/10400.11/2360/1/Proceedings_International%20Workshop_SArdenha%205%206%20maio%202014.pdf
Quote from: ArMaP on October 28, 2015, 10:01:42 PM
Or someone that already watched the videos could tell me. ;)
I suppose people like the Maasai should all be dead, as they have a carnivore diet. :)
Not a chance I am going to spend more than 3 hours watching videos.
Good point people can live on many diets some extreme but I think their diet has been misrepresented.
QuoteYes, far from eating nothing but milk, blood, and meat at the turn of the twentieth century, Masai women were coming into the village with caravans full of bananas, corn, and sweet potatoes every three to six days!
They cooked sweet potatoes (Ipomea batatas) in water with a little steppe salt, drained them, mashed them with a whisk, and stirred in fresh milk. They cooked unripe dried bananas (Musa paradisiaca) in water, drained them, and stirred in milk and butter. They cooked beans with salt, but corn without salt. They cooked yams (Discorea abyssinica) and taro in salted water, and cooked sorghum into a thick porridge and lightly salted it afterwards.
In addition to their strongly intoxicating home-brewed honey beer, the Masai also purchased much milder beers from the surrounding tribes made from bananas, millet, corn, or sorghum.
- See more at: http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/cmasterjohn/the-masai-part-ii-a-glimpse-of-the-masai-diet-at-the-turn-of-the-20th-century-a-land-of-milk-and-honey-bananas-from-afar/#sthash.IBbmWzJU.dpuf
QuoteThis indeed appears to be the case. Among the British respondents in the National Child Development Study, those who are vegetarian at age 42 have significantly higher childhood general intelligence than those who are not vegetarian at age 42. (Childhood general intelligence was measured with 11 different cognitive tests at three ages before 16.) Vegetarians have the mean childhood IQ of 109.1 whereas meat eaters have the mean childhood IQ of 100.9. The difference is large and highly statistically significant.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201005/why-vegetarians-are-more-intelligent-meat-eaters ;D
Quote from: Dyna on October 29, 2015, 05:35:49 PM
I think you should ask if beef grown in a lab would be "less' harmful, there is no longer anything natural about most meat products people eat today.
Once again, the fact that that may be true in the US doesn't mean that it's true in the whole world.
Quote from: Dyna on October 29, 2015, 06:06:53 PM
We are changeable and changing!
Human Ancestors Were Grass Gourmands
http://news.sciencemag.org/2012/11/human-ancestors-were-grass-gourmands
So, eating meat is an evolution. ;)
Quote from: Dyna on October 29, 2015, 06:23:45 PM
Very true but I don't see a return to the family farm unless the whole earth has a disaster and has to start over.
I agree, but having an example of a working and more ecological model is the first step in creating other models.
QuotePortugal imports beef
Portugal imports most of the food it consumes.
QuotePeople there are concerned also it seems but I can see there is more human raising of the animals for the non-imported meat.
People in the EU, usually, are more concerned with the quality of their food and with an ethical treatment of the animals, that's why the use of hormones was forbidden in the 1980s, the pressure from consumer groups was stronger than the pressure from the producers.
Quote from: Dyna on October 29, 2015, 06:51:51 PM
those who are vegetarian at age 42 have significantly higher childhood general intelligence than those who are not vegetarian at age 42
Sorry, I don't understand what that means, can you explain it? ???
I'm just an omnivore. ;)
can you explain it? ???
I think it means they have bigger brains and are therefore non religious
but hey.. what do I know I just read stuff on here
bwhahahahahahah
sorry to anyone truly invested in this topic..i'm having one of those weird humor daze
Quote from: ArMaP on October 29, 2015, 10:05:10 PM
Sorry, I don't understand what that means, can you explain it? ???
I'm just an omnivore. ;)
:( I could help you with that handicap. ;D
Quote from: space otter on October 29, 2015, 10:09:32 PM
can you explain it? ???
I think it means they have bigger brains and are therefore non religious
but hey.. what do I know I just read stuff on here
bwhahahahahahah
sorry to anyone truly invested in this topic..i'm having one of those weird humor daze
;D
Actually brain size may not indicate intelligence ;D
https://neuroscience.stanford.edu/news/ask-neuroscientist-does-bigger-brain-make-you-smarter
Guess that makes the USA empty headers ;D
of course Religion has little to do with God.
QuoteGallup International: their 2012 poll found that 13% of respondents were "convinced atheists" and their 2015 poll indicated that 11% were "convinced atheists".[4][5] In Scandinavia and East Asia, and particularly in China, atheists and the nonreligious are the majority.[5] Of the global atheist and nonreligious population, 76% reside in Asia and the Pacific, while the remainder reside in Europe (12%), North America (5%), Latin America and the Caribbean (4%), sub-Saharan Africa (2%) and the Middle East and North Africa (less than 1%).[3] In Africa and South America, atheists are typically in the single digits.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism
Quote from: Dyna on October 30, 2015, 12:12:35 AM
:( I could help you with that handicap. ;D
You could, if you could explain it.
After re-reading the article, their conclusion is that smart children are vegetarian at 42, but they do not say if those people are still smart at 42. :P
I don't think the data they used is available in the Internet for free, but I found some related data (http://nesstar.ukdataservice.ac.uk/webview/index.jsp?study=http%3A%2F%2Fdanessukds.essex.ac.uk%3A80%2Fobj%2FfStudy%2F5578&variable=http%3A%2F%2Fdanessukds.essex.ac.uk%3A80%2Fobj%2FfVariable%2F5578_V3239&mode=documentation&submode=variable&top=yes&language=en) that says that of those that said they were vegetarian, 2.3% were vegan, 54.9% also eat dairy products and 41.2% also eat chicken and/or fish.
Statistics can be manipulated to support any concept :P
Australia is a really Grand Example of Land Clearing for Agriculture. Just come look at the bloody place.
You do not need any science to tell you this or that. The degradation through land fell is quite self evident.. Do you Know science! If you do look at my Dad's farm compared the Neighbor's for soil biology. Any Scientist worth their charge should know soil biology is Key!
I do it on my Dad's farm... The more tree's we plant, the more wildlife we see and the better the soil become's and the happier we are!
Why this scenario of strip mining nature these day's is even considered normal is sorta really stupid! No left or right.. Just common frigging sense!
Our self centered and greedy attitude toward this planet will be the destruction of it. It saddens me greatly that all we think of is what we want and what we enjoy and never concern ourselves as to what that does to the overall .
We tend to think of the wealthy only as the greedy consumers but we are all a part of the degradation of our wonderful planet.
Quote from: Somamech on December 23, 2015, 03:25:36 PM
Why this scenario of strip mining nature these day's is even considered normal is sorta really stupid!
The problem is that they look for quantity, not quality or sustainability.
NEED MONEY NOW!!!
SCREW THE FUTURE I WILL BE DEAD!
(http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/david-rockefeller.jpg)
Though looks like he is planning to live forever
DAVID ROCKEFELLER'S SIXTH HEART TRANSPLANT SUCCESSFUL AT AGE 99
http://www.donotlink.com/framed?697001
::)
Yeah yeah I know its not true :P
But the point is that this is the mind set of these old fossils