Hi John,
I am new to the forum so its my first post. Hope that I am posting it in the correct area.
Zorgon was good enough to allow me to join after I had posted on ATS that I was looking for some positive opinions on Bobs Story.
I had looked at Bobs material a few years ago which I initially found fascinating and maybe a year or two later I came across your website
with your stories which appeared more far fetched . As much as I would had liked many of them to be proven as true, they seemed hard to believe.
I never came to any clear conclusions about any of them. I researched enough to get a general overview on the topics..I had not researched in any in depth details.
But I have always thought Bobs story could possibly have been true.
As time passed I had looked at other related forums and I think I was gradually worn down by a lot of negative material with claims that Bobs story was a hoax. So I did go through a phase of wearing down in my outlook. I suppose I started to believe that some of the so called experts on certain forums new better than most..
As I got older and have become aware of so much deception in the world.. I now have started to re-question quite a lot of things, and have read or viewed more things that have gave some other alternative view points that resparked my interest after I had almost
given up on certain things that had initially interested me. I got to one point where I concluded the whole UFO story is a hoax, and it disappointed me to have come to that conclusion..I had just not found any real evidence..
The only main one story that I could not fully give up on was Bobs.
I always thought it had real possibilities.
Apart from the technical stuff. ( Element 115 , gravity, atomic physics etc.. that I believe only very IQ people may understand)...I am sure most people who had looked at the general story could relate to possibilities behind it.
I had been following the dreamland resort forum for some time, and I could see that as much as they claimed it was a non UFO site, that gradually anyone who mentioned UFOs would be throwed upon.
When I initially had joined , I or other new members could get away with mentioning and asking about Bob Lazar and you would get some explanations or feedback from members...But in recent months it has become more and more badly looked upon if you mention Bob Lazar...
so much so very recently certain moderators got really upset and insisted that such a topic be stopped and no longer discussed...All they did was say it was a hoax and to look at Tom Mahoods research into the story and a Drs / Scientists view point on the facts that he had interviewed...or go to other ufo forums to research further into it. I had made a comment that suggested that a large majority of their members had joined their forum initially looking for information about Bob...and I said that I really didn't understand why they would not allow it..I said that DL was supposed to be about anything related to Area 51...so why won't they allow discussions on things like S4, Papoose Lake and Bob or Flying Discs..Government security and cover ups etc , and or to allow a separate thread to discuss such things.. But I was told to drop the idea.
There was also something mentioned that certain information could not be discussed as it may be a danger to National security.
So I did start loosing interest all around in the topic. Id looked at other UFO sites in the past and could never conclude anything that Id looked at to be real evidence...as I indicated earlier..
I did a google search for Bob Lazar and the main forum that I found was ATS...So I decided to try and start researching that..I had looked at it at various times in the past on and off for certain things, but not in depth related to Bob Lazar.
I put up a post and asked if any of the members could inform me where
I may find a more positive outlook to Bobs story and also where one may find some other Scientists or engineers or related professional views on it...Fortunately Zorgon was good enough to answer some of my questions and introduce me to The Living Moon Forum.
Not too long ago I had found John Lear on open minds forum..but within a few months, it had closed down.. Zorgon has given me some explanation as to what happened.
I was very surprised to find you John as a member on here.
I just recently read that you had actually been one of the persons that Bob had taken to witness the flying Discs... I don't think that I had realised this before. ( As I said initially I had just research the basic stories, not the finer details)
I also read a link that you posted that you suggested was one of the most accurate articles written about Bobs story and how it also related to you and your previous materials.
This has now opened up some new thoughts and questions into my mind... and maybe it could bring back some firmer beliefs that maybe there may be further truths to what I researched earlier..
I would like to hope so ...
I have a couple of initial questions that I would like to ask you..
I wonder John if you could indicate where about that you witnessed the Flying Discs with Bob when you went out with him and some others in the evening somewhere around Area 51..
Was it near to the so called Black mailbox ?
Or did Bob get you closer to within the Area 51 border to view it.
I believe back in 1989 that there were other closer higher view points that were accessable..
Also are there other members on here that also viewed the discs with Bob ?
By any chance do you have a video that shows it as was suggested on ATS forum by I think one of the main moderators...
Sorry for a long post...Hope to ask more questions and make shorter comments next time.
Thank you
Astr0144
Welcome, astr0144!
I hope John swings by and answers Your questions, but from what I can tell, Bob's the real deal.
I think John has some description in one of His threads that gives some idea where He was and if I remember correctly it was some ways away from the black mailbox...
Glad to see You here!
There is a video of JL being interviewed and telling the story and a transcript that Zorgon has posted here. Look around. If I find it, I'll post it.
0CD
I seem to recall him discussing it in his Project Camelot interviews. I can't recall where abouts though.
http://projectcamelot.org/john_lear.html (http://projectcamelot.org/john_lear.html)
Astro144.
I just need to ask you why it is that the location of the experience means so much to you? It might seem a simple question but maybe your answer will show that its really not?
Linda
Thank you for the Welcome and the members responses so far.
I appreciate the feedback.
I will check out some of the information to some of your comments .
I will await to see if John replies first Linda before I explain my reasons for
asking.
Hope John notices the post.
Astr0144
Quote from: astr0144 on February 27, 2012, 06:22:06 AM
Hi John,
I am new to the forum so its my first post. Hope that I am posting it in the correct area.
Zorgon was good enough to allow me to join after I had posted on ATS that I was looking for some positive opinions on Bobs Story.
I had looked at Bobs material a few years ago which I initially found fascinating and maybe a year or two later I came across your website
with your stories which appeared more far fetched . As much as I would had liked many of them to be proven as true, they seemed hard to believe.
I never came to any clear conclusions about any of them. I researched enough to get a general overview on the topics..I had not researched in any in depth details.
But I have always thought Bobs story could possibly have been true.
As time passed I had looked at other related forums and I think I was gradually worn down by a lot of negative material with claims that Bobs story was a hoax. So I did go through a phase of wearing down in my outlook. I suppose I started to believe that some of the so called experts on certain forums new better than most..
As I got older and have become aware of so much deception in the world.. I now have started to re-question quite a lot of things, and have read or viewed more things that have gave some other alternative view points that resparked my interest after I had almost
given up on certain things that had initially interested me. I got to one point where I concluded the whole UFO story is a hoax, and it disappointed me to have come to that conclusion..I had just not found any real evidence..
The only main one story that I could not fully give up on was Bobs.
I always thought it had real possibilities.
Apart from the technical stuff. ( Element 115 , gravity, atomic physics etc.. that I believe only very IQ people may understand)...I am sure most people who had looked at the general story could relate to possibilities behind it.
I had been following the dreamland resort forum for some time, and I could see that as much as they claimed it was a non UFO site, that gradually anyone who mentioned UFOs would be throwed upon.
When I initially had joined , I or other new members could get away with mentioning and asking about Bob Lazar and you would get some explanations or feedback from members...But in recent months it has become more and more badly looked upon if you mention Bob Lazar...
so much so very recently certain moderators got really upset and insisted that such a topic be stopped and no longer discussed...All they did was say it was a hoax and to look at Tom Mahoods research into the story and a Drs / Scientists view point on the facts that he had interviewed...or go to other ufo forums to research further into it. I had made a comment that suggested that a large majority of their members had joined their forum initially looking for information about Bob...and I said that I really didn't understand why they would not allow it..I said that DL was supposed to be about anything related to Area 51...so why won't they allow discussions on things like S4, Papoose Lake and Bob or Flying Discs..Government security and cover ups etc , and or to allow a separate thread to discuss such things.. But I was told to drop the idea.
There was also something mentioned that certain information could not be discussed as it may be a danger to National security.
So I did start loosing interest all around in the topic. Id looked at other UFO sites in the past and could never conclude anything that Id looked at to be real evidence...as I indicated earlier..
I did a google search for Bob Lazar and the main forum that I found was ATS...So I decided to try and start researching that..I had looked at it at various times in the past on and off for certain things, but not in depth related to Bob Lazar.
I put up a post and asked if any of the members could inform me where
I may find a more positive outlook to Bobs story and also where one may find some other Scientists or engineers or related professional views on it...Fortunately Zorgon was good enough to answer some of my questions and introduce me to The Living Moon Forum.
Not too long ago I had found John Lear on open minds forum..but within a few months, it had closed down.. Zorgon has given me some explanation as to what happened.
I was very surprised to find you John as a member on here.
I just recently read that you had actually been one of the persons that Bob had taken to witness the flying Discs... I don't think that I had realised this before. ( As I said initially I had just research the basic stories, not the finer details)
I also read a link that you posted that you suggested was one of the most accurate articles written about Bobs story and how it also related to you and your previous materials.
This has now opened up some new thoughts and questions into my mind... and maybe it could bring back some firmer beliefs that maybe there may be further truths to what I researched earlier..
I would like to hope so ...
I have a couple of initial questions that I would like to ask you..
I wonder John if you could indicate where about that you witnessed the Flying Discs with Bob when you went out with him and some others in the evening somewhere around Area 51..
Was it near to the so called Black mailbox ?
Or did Bob get you closer to within the Area 51 border to view it.
I believe back in 1989 that there were other closer higher view points that were accessable..
Also are there other members on here that also viewed the discs with Bob ?
By any chance do you have a video that shows it as was suggested on ATS forum by I think one of the main moderators...
Sorry for a long post...Hope to ask more questions and make shorter comments next time.
Thank you
Astr0144
Hi! Maybe this helps. You know its on the forum to read in John Lear area :)
" BL: People often go to the Mailbox Road [intersection of Mailbox Road and Highway 375] but you really can't see [any S-4 activity] from Mailbox Road, you want the road further up [a few miles south], the other long line on the map, Groom Road. That's where we viewed it from. We went all the way up and to the left [on Groom road] so we could get closer to S-4. My friend works for Central LA regional telephone company, and he says that if you go over by Mount Charleston, I can't remember exactly where right now, you can see right down on [unintelligible] and you can actually see the vehicles moving from that area.
Q: From Mount Charleston? That's a hundred miles away, though.
BL: But he said he goes up there all the time and other Central people do; they can see the vehicles moving. "
Hope that was the thing you wanted to know..
WW
Hello, I am new hear as well... like you I heard about BL before I heard of John Lear, from what I know about Science the E 115 sounds like it could indeed be real and many of the other things he said sound plausible or possible, keeping in mind the technology would be very far ahead of what most people have access to at the present. I followed BL's trail for awhile and I came across this... IDK if I am breaking any rules but BL started a company called United Nuclear http://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=16_17_69&products_id=89
Now if BL was lying and it was a Hoax he sure does have some pretty neat exotic tech that he just happened to discover... That Aerogel stuff is rediculous 5x heavier than Air!? Hope it helps some.
Quote from: Skell on February 29, 2012, 12:05:55 PM
Hello, I am new hear as well... like you I heard about BL before I heard of John Lear, from what I know about Science the E 115 sounds like it could indeed be real and many of the other things he said sound plausible or possible, keeping in mind the technology would be very far ahead of what most people have access to at the present. I followed BL's trail for awhile and I came across this... IDK if I am breaking any rules but BL started a company called United Nuclear http://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=16_17_69&products_id=89
Now if BL was lying and it was a Hoax he sure does have some pretty neat exotic tech that he just happened to discover... That Aerogel stuff is rediculous 5x heavier than Air!? Hope it helps some.
One wonders why We're using ceramic tiles to absorb heat... Seems this stuff wouldn't crack and break. And would insulate pretty much as well.
Better, perhaps.
And it would be lighter.
Heh.
Has anyone spoken with Bob Lazar recently? Linda
Quote from: Amaterasu on February 29, 2012, 01:34:01 PM
One wonders why We're using ceramic tiles to absorb heat... Seems this stuff wouldn't crack and break. And would insulate pretty much as well.
Better, perhaps.
And it would be lighter.
Heh.
[/quote
Hey Amaterasu!
The aerogel is a wonderful material for what is is designed for, which is to capture small particles, and dust from space. What this means is that it absorbs them into it's crystalline structure, and safely embeds them within itself.
To use this material for tiles, would require the replacement of them with every flight cycle, due to contamination factors.
Soon they'll figure out how to skin it over, though, and then look out science, as an insulator it's unbeatable!
I think learning to cancel out the heat and radiation from reenentry with some sort of aerogel skin would be a plus, but what would be a bigger plus would be figuring out how to reenter slowly with an EG repellant force that would eliminate the heat and friction of our atmosphere.
Cheers!
Littleenki
WW...
Thank you for obtaining and posting this information.
I will look into this in more detail. Hope to make some further comments later.
A51watcher informed me that the discs were also viewable from
the 375 highway , I assume mainly on the Southern part.
Have you seen his video ?... I have only seen part 1 last night but He claims one of the disc was shown on it at the end..IF so and its real
it is very thought provoking..
The information you have given however is more what I would have
expected, in terms of it being closer to S4.
I hope to try and pin point it on Google Map...
Many thanks
Ast0144
Quote from: WeekendWarrior on February 29, 2012, 10:47:23 AM
Hi! Maybe this helps. You know its on the forum to read in John Lear area :)
" BL: People often go to the Mailbox Road [intersection of Mailbox Road and Highway 375] but you really can't see [any S-4 activity] from Mailbox Road, you want the road further up [a few miles south], the other long line on the map, Groom Road. That's where we viewed it from. We went all the way up and to the left [on Groom road] so we could get closer to S-4. My friend works for Central LA regional telephone company, and he says that if you go over by Mount Charleston, I can't remember exactly where right now, you can see right down on [unintelligible] and you can actually see the vehicles moving from that area.
Q: From Mount Charleston? That's a hundred miles away, though.
BL: But he said he goes up there all the time and other Central people do; they can see the vehicles moving. "
Hope that was the thing you wanted to know..
WW
Quote from: astr0144 on February 29, 2012, 05:09:18 PM
WW...
Thank you for obtaining and posting this information.
I will look into this in more detail. Hope to make some further comments later.
A51watcher informed me that the discs were also viewable from
the 375 highway , I assume mainly on the Southern part.
Have you seen his video ?... I have only seen part 1 last night but He claims one of the disc was shown on it at the end..IF so and its real
it is very thought provoking..
The information you have given however is more what I would have
expected, in terms of it being closer to S4.
I hope to try and pin point it on Google Map...
Many thanks
Ast0144
I wish I would live near there somewhere. Would love to go hunting with you :)
Hi ,
Ref to Bobs description of where he witnessed the Saucers..which hes said was from a a left turn off track or other Road at towards the Bottom of Groom Road... At the moment until I look more closely on google maps, I do recall seeing tracks that go towards S4 from Groom Road... but these were on the east side of the Mountains/Hills that separate access into Area 51. There are probably several that head left or south from Groom road. What I don't know and would like to know is just how far left or South did Bob and his colleagues travel...I suspect that in 1989 that he would have been able to access much more areas than you could do today.
I suspect that Only John ,Gene or Bob would be able to answer this or if we are lucky enough to have anyone else on the forum who witnessed it from the same sitings.
As for what you can see from Mount Charleston.. You can get some great views from up and around that area.. Dreamland resort claim that Tom Mahood was able to view Papoose Lake area from Mount Sterling which is west to Mt Charleston as far as I recall...I seem to recall this is only 45 miles away ...Groom would be another 20 to 30 miles further North.
There are other good views towards the Nellis range without having to do the long hikes to the view points of the two Mountains...but I think you may have to reach those view spots to see Papoose..IF any one Knows of any easier areas to access to see it, Id appreciate any information.
As far as I recall Tom Mahood claimed he could not see any activity..but he may have and probably only went the one time. He did say if one was able to stay a few days and over night, that it would be interesting to see what may be visible..or if any light activity was noted at night time.. but later I don't think he believed that their was anything after he claimed he did not believe Bobs story.
It has also been pointed out that Bob claimed that there was a car park near to where he was at S4...but this is not visible on google maps.
It would had been impressive if anyone had seen something from up the mountain view spot and managed to zoom in and video or photo it.
One wonders if anything may still be there...
Ed Fouche claimed there was a underground facility several levels deep south of Papoose, but I have been informed hes a fraud.
Hope to find more about specific areas that Bob witnessed the Discs.
WW... If it was still possible to witness the Saucers, I would consider a visit..but I am led to believe that such things have not been witnessed for a long time..I am sorry to say.
I suspect many on PRC no more about this than me..but I seem to recall a thread somewhere suggesting they may had moved some miles North east of Area 51.. maybe to a much harder place to visit.
Astr0144
" BL: People often go to the Mailbox Road [intersection of Mailbox Road and Highway 375] but you really can't see [any S-4 activity] from Mailbox Road, you want the road further up [a few miles south], the other long line on the map, Groom Road. That's where we viewed it from. We went all the way up and to the left [on Groom road] so we could get closer to S-4. My friend works for Central LA regional telephone company, and he says that if you go over by Mount Charleston, I can't remember exactly where right now, you can see right down on [unintelligible] and you can actually see the vehicles moving from that area.
Q: From Mount Charleston? That's a hundred miles away, though.
BL: But he said he goes up there all the time and other Central people do; they can see the vehicles moving. "
Hope that was the thing you wanted to know..
WW
Quote from: Littleenki on February 29, 2012, 03:09:03 PM
Hey Amaterasu!
The aerogel is a wonderful material for what is is designed for, which is to capture small particles, and dust from space. What this means is that it absorbs them into it's crystalline structure, and safely embeds them within itself.
To use this material for tiles, would require the replacement of them with every flight cycle, due to contamination factors.
Soon they'll figure out how to skin it over, though, and then look out science, as an insulator it's unbeatable!
I think learning to cancel out the heat and radiation from reenentry with some sort of aerogel skin would be a plus, but what would be a bigger plus would be figuring out how to reenter slowly with an EG repellant force that would eliminate the heat and friction of our atmosphere.
Cheers!
Littleenki
Thanks for the info! Does the "contamination" make it less insulating?
Nice find Skell and comments guys.
It says its only 3 X as heavy as air.
No doubt about Bob, he seems to have a high technical connection with
his business. I would suspect that he has a degree.
-------------
What is Aerogel?
Aerogel is made from Silicon Dioxide, the same material as ordinary glass,
only 1,000 times less dense.
Developed by NASA, Aerogel is the lightest and lowest-density solid known to exist. A truly remarkable material, Aerogel holds an unbelievable 15 entries in the Guinness Book of World Records, including best insulator and lowest density solid. Aerogel is composed of amorphous Silicon Dioxide, and 99.8% Air. Its melting point is 2,200 degrees F (1,200 degrees C).
Being the world's lightest known solid, it weighs only three times that of air (with a density of just 3 milligrams per cubic centimeter. ) When handled, Aerogel feels like a very light, hard foam. Being chemically similar to glass, it also happens to shatter like glass, yet is incredibly strong structurally, and can support thousands of times its own weight. Theoretically, a block weighing less than a pound could support a weight of half a ton. Due to its microstructure, Aerogel is a powerful desiccant, rapidly absorbing any moisture in your fingertips when held. This usually leaves some dry spots on the skin that disappear in a short time. Aerogel's true strength is its incredible insulating properties. It negates just about any kind of energy transfer - thermal, electrical or acoustic. A one-inch thick Aerogel window has the same insulation value as 15 panes of glass and trapped air - which means a conventional window would have to be ten-inches thick to equal a one-inch thick Aerogel window.
Quote from: astr0144 on March 01, 2012, 01:49:22 AM
Ref to Bobs description of where he witnessed the Saucers..
I witnessed the tests from several locations that night. (Due to dodging security.)
At certain times they flew north past the black mailbox across hwy 375 and performed maneuvers up there for a while.
So yes you could easily watch them from the mailbox, or anywhere ranging from the old AE road to the mailbox to even a few miles west of the mailbox. Or... as far south as you dared to go towards the security perimeter.
Often they would zip right over your head then back again.
They came from and returned to - the direction of Papoose lake and not Groom lake. It's quite easy to tell which is which at night. I go into more detail on this in 'The Proof Bob was telling the truth' thread in the Aliens and UFO's section.
My point here being in response to your sighting location and watching location -
On the night I saw them... you could have been anywhere within a 15 mile circle from the mailbox and seen them just fine. No need to be up on a hill anywhere. On the ground was just fine.
They come to where you are.
The testing area was "centered" if you want to call it that, and they went all over the place in different directions, but always returned to -
an area just THIS side of the hills- if you are looking south from the mailbox towards Groom.
...
As to the subject of is there anything still going on out there?
I will
never discourage anyone from going out there to have a look for themselves.
Did they move?
Did they come back?
Did they never leave?
The only way to get these answers is by people continuing to go out there and have a look.
Personally I have been out there since then and did not see anything. Thats the word I have from others also is that ever since about 93 there has been nothing seen there.
I have also seen the information you referred to indicating perhaps they moved NE.
I too would like to hear more about John's sighting(s) out there and what speeds and maneuvers they performed.
The ones I saw were completely impossible.
Very informative Post A51w..
You have answered a lot of what I initially wanted to know..but I welcome any other info..
That must have been incredibly amazing to have witnessed it..
I got distracted and did not get around to your 'The Proof Bob was telling the truth' thread. I will check it out.
If anyone was able to have recorded it as you describe, I am sure that should satisfy anyones uncertain thoughts for those who may still have had any.
I did find one of Bobs Videos on your Youtube page...I think now that I had seen this before, but what he recorded was far away and it is hard to really prove very much when the video is not able to either zoom in for more detail or get wider shots if the saucers are moving around.
If you managed to capture your siting closer or wider angle then hopefully that will give us a better viewing...Back in 1989/93 unfortunately I don't think video cameras were anywhere as good as today.
If I don't manage to post back later, I hope to do so in the next day or so.
I didn't get much sleep last night after thinking about what you said . :-)
Many thanks
Astr0144
Just want to add a link for your "Bob was telling the truth Thread"
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/forum/index.php?topic=504.0
Just went through "Bob was telling the truth " thread..
You have done a very nice job on it A51w...
Interesting thread...and I like your map images and google earth recording
of the Groom / Papoose area.
I will have to absorb it for a while...and come back later..
Quote from: astr0144 on March 01, 2012, 05:29:31 AM
Just went through "Bob was telling the truth " thread..
You have done a very nice job on it A51w...
Interesting thread...and I like your map images and google earth recording
of the Groom / Papoose area.
I will have to absorb it for a while...and come back later..
Where exactly did you and Bob Witness the Flying Discs in 1989.
I wondered if you may consider posting one of your impressive maps to point out the location.
I did create a link and I have also been following A51 watchers threads as he claimed he also witnesses the discs in 1991.
Thank you
Here is a map of where we were standing (white arrow). The saucer was at the blue dot. I have noted where Groom Lake, Papoose Lake, the Black mailbox, Hiway 375 (the Extraterrestrial Highway), and Bald Mt. are.
The mileage from where we were was 17 miles to Groom Lake and 26 miles to Papoose Lake.
We watched it for about 3 or 4 minutes and then when it quit moving and started to descend I got it with my Celestron 8 for about 10 to 15 seconds. It looked like typical disc shape, with a yellowish, goldish 'something' radiating from it. It did not fly again that night.
(http://a.imageshack.us/img836/2489/march221989view.jpg)
By johnlear (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/johnlear) at 2012-03-03
Quote from: johnlear on March 03, 2012, 09:54:24 AM
Here is a map of where we were standing (white arrow). The saucer was at the blue dot. I have noted where Groom Lake, Papoose Lake, the Black mailbox, Hiway 375 (the Extraterrestrial Highway), and Bald Mt. are.
The mileage from where we were was 17 miles to Groom Lake and 26 miles to Papoose Lake.
We watched it for about 3 or 4 minutes and then when it quit moving and started to descend I got it with my Celestron 8 for about 10 to 15 seconds. It looked like typical disc shape, with a yellowish, goldish 'something' radiating from it. It did not fly again that night.
(http://a.imageshack.us/img836/2489/march221989view.jpg)
By johnlear (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/johnlear) at 2012-03-03
Now that's the fact, Jack!
The map of that sighting looks like it was used for approach radar testing or some sort of flight test to measure the radar signature of a craft, doesnt it?
I also theorized that the craft could only fly a straight line with not many turns, because it was not able to stray far from the airspace between the two bases due to range constraints. I imagine we are still pretty ass backwards when it comes to the drive system we backengineered,with it's fast decaying fuel, and that's probably the limitation right now.
Also, John, I noticed the craft came very close to the road to Groom at one point, and do you think that means they were practicing vehicular response tactics?
Maps say plenty, and the study of one can open up many theories about what happened and why. I liken it to an accident report, where the investigator determines the position and purpose of the cars before the crash, then draws a map, and studies it for clues to the truth of who caused it.
Great thread, and its nice to see some new folks taking interest in your work, and Bob's as well, John. It WILL be that work that pushes us to the next level of understanding, and freedom, so thanks ahead of time!
Cheers!
Littleenki
Hi John,
Thank you for honoring this thread with your presence ...
I appreciate it.
The map shows a good overview of what and where the siting took place.
I cannot see the specific area in detail (as the map is on such a large scale) where you were positioned when you witnessed it..I am guessing near the bottom of the 13 mile Groom Road almost as far as you are allowed to go before one reaches the warning signs. What I think may be a camping area where the Cameos sometimes observe from. ( Not sure if this is A51 watchers camp fire hill as in his thread " The proof Bob Lazar was telling the truth! " January 31, 2012, 09:15:32 PM ยป )
I thought that I had read that you and Bobs had taken a left turning onto a track from Groom Rd that headed south towards Papoose Lake ( as you were heading towards Groom Lake) But I suspect after looking at your map that this is incorrect.
I thought that you would had witnessed the Discs towards Papoose Lake but your map shows it over Groom Lake.
A51 watcher says that he witnessed disc in 1991 from towards Papoose Lake and that the discs flew over towards and all around as far as parts of the 375 highway, I assume from between Tikaboo and past the black mail box towards the North where the highway heads towards the Road peak before it goes to Rachel.
So I find it interesting to compare the two sitings.
Knowing more about Area 51 from what I have read initially I didn't think
if S4 and the discs was so secret that they would fly them to Groom Lake Area 51...But A51 watcher suggested that they did so at certain times when they new no workers or anyone who may had witnessed it would be outside or off duty....Maybe back in 1989/91 many of the workers did not work after dark.. I don't really know ..
Anyway it is interesting to compare and now be more aware of what happened and from where the discs were observed from.
Best Regards
Astr0144
John,
I recall once seeing some photos that you posted from "open minds forum" that looked towards Papoose Lake from Mount Charleston / Mt Sterling which you labeled all the main points or places between Mercury to Tikaboo / Groom Lake..
Weekend Warrior ( member on PRC ) found this in an interview that Bob gave.. in which Bob seems to be suggesting that it was possible to witness
activity going on at Papoose from Mount Charleston.
By any chance did you or anyone else you knew ever claim to have witnessed any activity from the high view spots.
" BL: People often go to the Mailbox Road [intersection of Mailbox Road and Highway 375] but you really can't see [any S-4 activity] from Mailbox Road, you want the road further up [a few miles south], the other long line on the map, Groom Road. That's where we viewed it from. We went all the way up and to the left [on Groom road] so we could get closer to S-4. My friend works for Central LA regional telephone company, and he says that if you go over by Mount Charleston, I can't remember exactly where right now, you can see right down on [unintelligible] and you can actually see the vehicles moving from that area.
Q: From Mount Charleston? That's a hundred miles away, though.
BL: But he said he goes up there all the time and other Central people do; they can see the vehicles moving. "
====================
This was from my earlier post on this thread from my research.
As for what you can see from Mount Charleston.. You can get some great views from up and around that area.. Dreamland resort claim that Tom Mahood was able to view Papoose Lake area from Mount Sterling which is west to Mt Charleston as far as I recall...I seem to recall this is only 45 miles away ...Groom would be another 20 to 30 miles further North.
There are other good views towards the Nellis range without having to do the long hikes to the view points of the two Mountains...but I think you may have to reach those view spots to see Papoose..IF any one Knows of any easier areas to access to see it, Id appreciate any information.
As far as I recall Tom Mahood claimed he could not see any activity..but he may have and probably only went the one time. He did say if one was able to stay a few days and over night, that it would be interesting to see what may be visible..or if any light activity was noted at night time.. but later I don't think he believed that their was anything after he claimed he did not believe Bobs story.
It has also been pointed out that Bob claimed that there was a car park near to where he was at S4...but this is not visible on google maps.
It would had been impressive if anyone had seen something from up the mountain view spot and managed to zoom in and video or photo it.
One wonders if anything may still be there...
Ed Fouche claimed there was a underground facility several levels deep south of Papoose, but I have been informed hes a fraud.
Thank you
Astr0144
Sorry I was trying to modify prior post and accidentally clicked to quote button instead...I have deleted most of the content of this one.
Maybe Moderator can remove just this specific one post..
Please however do not delete the prior posts or the overall thread.
thank you
Quote from: astr0144 on March 03, 2012, 07:26:39 PM
Ed Fouche claimed there was a underground facility several levels deep south of Papoose, but I have been informed hes a fraud.
Thank you
Astr0144
Fouche may be correct. A few years ago I was playing with some DEM (Digital Elevation Models) of Papoose Lake and found a hole south of S-4.
I have a DEM of Groom Lake but I have lost my Vista Pro 3.
As soon as I get another one I will run Groom and see what I come up with.
(http://a.imageshack.us/img26/7072/papoo18notesa.jpg)
By johnlear (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/johnlear) at 2012-03-03
(http://a.imageshack.us/img594/3377/annotateda.jpg)
By johnlear (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/johnlear) at 2012-03-03
(http://a.imageshack.us/img18/9441/shipcloseupa2.jpg)
By johnlear (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/johnlear) at 2012-03-03
(http://a.imageshack.us/img404/5808/culegend.jpg)
By johnlear (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/johnlear) at 2012-03-03
(http://a.imageshack.us/img818/9688/s4fly.jpg)
By johnlear (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/johnlear) at 2012-03-03
(http://a.imageshack.us/img37/5117/bobslab.jpg)
By johnlear (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/johnlear) at 2012-03-03
Hi John,
That is unusual.
I have not come across DEM image models before.
I am not clear on where exactly that would appear on a plan view looking directly from above, initally it looks like the south of the mountain range east on Papoose lake itself...
I wonder what it would show where S4 is supposed to be..if it can show any sign of hidden base where most of us are led to believe where it is.
Bob mentioned that there had been a car Park where the bus parked when it took him to S4, but on google maps, as far as I know, no one has been able to find it.
Sorry I forgot to mention that Ed Fouche as far as I recall, did say that the underground facility was South of Papoose lake itself.. NOT just south of S4 within the lake bed.
So if you have found something...I wonder if maybe that could be where S4 really is...if it is within the bounds of the eastern side of the lake bed on the sloping mountain terrain..
Thanks for updating the image in relation to where you show S4..
I assume that you did not find anything obvious where S4 itself is claimed to be located..Bob said that it was hidden by the doors being camouflaged.
But I think he suggested the car park should had been visible.
Quote from: astr0144 on March 03, 2012, 09:27:43 PM
Thanks for updating the image in relation to where you show S4..
I assume that you did not find anything obvious where S4 itself is claimed to be located..Bob said that it was hidden by the doors being camouflaged.
But I think he suggested the car park should had been visible.
No. They airbrush all possible traces of a facility including roads and car parks.
I note your further update on the images.
I like the picture of the UFO....very cool ! :-)
I can see some info where it says Landing site....and hanger with an arrow
pointing from Papoose lake indicating 450' Dia...
The UFO is indicated at 350' Dia...so im assuming that the hanger /s
are 450' Dia to fit in a 350' Dia Disc.
I also see the model image for the hanger base..I had seen that before on Bobs site..
What I cannot quite read is the writing on the update where you show the small image showing the Hole separate from the initial DEM shot .
I can read the small image ok now.. Thanks for amending it.
That is interesting ! what you said...below
I have noticed when I look at google maps how when you zoom in how parts of the map seem to join and show a varied colour..so I could believe what you say.
"No. They airbrush all possible traces of a facility including roads and car parks."
John,
I believe that you only witnessed the discs on one occasion with Bob,But he did visit several times with other friends before he was caught.
Do you know if he witnessed the Saucers in the same place or did he view them in other ares as well, such as towards Papoose lake itself or even heading towards the 375 highway, maybe towards the mailbox.
Quote from: astr0144 on March 03, 2012, 10:31:55 PM
John,
I believe that you only witnessed the discs on one occasion with Bob,But he did visit several times with other friends before he was caught.
Do you know if he witnessed the Saucers in the same place or did he view them in other ares as well, such as towards Papoose lake itself or even heading towards the 375 highway, maybe towards the mailbox.
Bob and his wife had been to the same identical spot several months before he even heard that UFO's were up there. He saw the lights of the saucer but he didn't know what they were.
I went with Bob and Gene Huff on March 22, 1989. On March 29th Bob went with Gene and Jim and they saw what we saw on the 22nd. A week later I went with Bob, Gene, Bobs wife and her sister and we didn't see anything because that is the nite we got caught.
Bob saw the saucer fly once outside the hangar at S-4. He told me that he would go out on the ramp occasionally to listen for Aurora because it was extremely loud and the noise would echo down the valley.
Quote from: astr0144 on March 03, 2012, 10:04:35 PM
I note your further update on the images.
I like the picture of the UFO....very cool ! :-)
I can see some info where it says Landing site....and hanger with an arrow
pointing from Papoose lake indicating 450' Dia...
The UFO is indicated at 350' Dia...so im assuming that the hanger /s
are 450' Dia to fit in a 350' Dia Disc.
I also see the model image for the hanger base..I had seen that before on Bobs site..
What I cannot quite read is the writing on the update where you show the small image showing the Hole separate from the initial DEM shot .
Bob never saw a disc that big (350ft.). Each of the 9 bays were about 60 ft. wide as the saucers were no larger than 45 or 50 feet. I don't know where they parked the big saucer unless it was in that hole I found on the DEM.
When I get set up to run the DEM's again I will show you a clear view of what is in the bottom of that hole. It is the outline of a jet like the F-117A but not exactly. I had lots and lots more pictures of the hole but I lost them somewhere along the line in changing nd updating computers.
Quote from: Linda Brown on February 27, 2012, 03:49:08 PM
Astro144.
I just need to ask you why it is that the location of the experience means so much to you? It might seem a simple question but maybe your answer will show that its really not?
Linda
Now that you have heard from John ( and it was nice to see his post!) can you return to consider my question above. You said perhaps that you would be able to do that after you had gotten a response from John.
I am not well versed on this situation but it just seems to me that a " car park" would be sort of silly when the easiest way to " drop folks off" would be to stop the bus in the middle of the dirt road.... over a specially designed cover. The bus bottom would drop down into that... " elevator" and the entire bus could be off loaded within seconds without anyone ever suspecting anything other than it has just hesitated on the road. Not something that noticeable. Pick up could be handled the same way and if the stories about all of the underground transit systems are true in that area there might be all kinds of " Bus Drops" on those dusty desert roads. I don't know about such things but it seems more rational than a " car park".
Anyway... hope you can answer my question one of these days. Linda
Hi Linda,
As John has only just started to comment and I hope that he continues.
It is a bit early for me to comment to why it is important to me to ask where John had viewed the saucers from in connection to some other facts that I am trying to learn about... I am also Hoping that A51watcher can reply to some of my questions that are related to what I am trying to assess.
Hope that I can find out what I am trying to research in full before I comment on the next questions in relation to it.
Hope you can be patient. :-)
As for the importance of the car park.. I only mentioned that as for some reason I seemed to recall reading somewhere about it not being visible
on google after Bob had commented on it .
It is interesting to read Johns comment on it and I believe what he says is a possibility.
You do make a good suggestion that I would not disagree with about a special drop off cover etc... if they did want to keep everything as secret as possible.
Thank you for the explanation of the visits to witness the saucers.
That is interesting that you refer to two different sized Saucers.
Something that I had not realised before.
I hope that you managed to run your DEMs again ok...
I will also try and find one of the photos that you posted on "open minds" looking from Mount Charleston area towards Papoose.
It showed great detail of the Nellis area..it was very impressive !
or at least I thought so. It may take me a bit of time to find it. so it may be in the next day or so if I cannot find it today.
Quote from: johnlear on March 03, 2012, 11:05:05 PM
Bob never saw a disc that big (350ft.). Each of the 9 bays were about 60 ft. wide as the saucers were no larger than 45 or 50 feet. I don't know where they parked the big saucer unless it was in that hole I found on the DEM.
When I get set up to run the DEM's again I will show you a clear view of what is in the bottom of that hole. It is the outline of a jet like the F-117A but not exactly. I had lots and lots more pictures of the hole but I lost them somewhere along the line in changing nd updating computers.
Quote from: astr0144 on March 03, 2012, 11:50:11 PM
I will also try and find one of the photos that you posted on "open minds" looking from Mount Charleston area towards Papoose.
It showed great detail of the Nellis area..it was very impressive !
or at least I thought so. It may take me a bit of time to find it. so it may be in the next day or so if I cannot find it today.
This one?
(http://a.imageshack.us/img850/6944/sandaiaeriallargegood.png)
By johnlear (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/johnlear) at 2012-03-03
Hi John,
Thanks for posting that image, it is one that I have not seen before.
I was trying to find an image similar to the one I have in mind online.
there is a similar but not as good as yours on dreamland resort forum from Tom Mahood that shows yucca and frenchman flats.
http://www.dreamlandresort.com/trip_reports/circumnavigation/index.html
this is another..again the clarity was lacking compared to the one you posted on "open Minds".
http://www.dreamlandresort.com/trip_reports/interceptors/papsmall.jpg
this is an article written about the View from Mt Sterling.
I assume that most will already have seen it if they are into
Papoose Lake..
UNFORTUNATELY you can not access it by a direct link..so go to..
http://www.dreamlandresort.com/
if you look at the left hand side..find Area51 info and photos..then look below that for "more info and photos"
you will see a title watching Area 51... look in the first listings for
"other view spots"...
scroll down to the bottom and you will see Mt Stirling.Click on it to read the article.
Then there are some photos taken from Mount Sterling on a website that I found..but they dont lable anything and do not show all the panoramic view.
if you scroll down you will see some that look towards the nellis area.
When I clicked on a image, I was not able to close it again and had to
enter the site again..so it may not be wise to click on the image to make it larger unless you reload again into the site.
http://flickeflu.com/set/72157624318724520
Quote from: johnlear on March 03, 2012, 09:02:02 PM
Fouche may be correct. A few years ago I was playing with some DEM (Digital Elevation Models) of Papoose Lake and found a hole south of S-4.
I have a DEM of Groom Lake but I have lost my Vista Pro 3.
As soon as I get another one I will run Groom and see what I come up with.
Fantastic DEM on this page, and boy does S-4 have a panoramic view of the takeoff and landing of the disc, too.
DEM editing is a bugger, isnt it? A cloudy day can make a DEM look like a piece of swiss cheese, but this looks like something else.
Incredible, John, and very possible that the hole is a small lake, or a false door.
Thanks, Littleenki
(http://a.imageshack.us/img26/7072/papoo18notesa.jpg)
By johnlear (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/johnlear) at 2012-03-03
(http://a.imageshack.us/img594/3377/annotateda.jpg)
By johnlear (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/johnlear) at 2012-03-03
(http://a.imageshack.us/img18/9441/shipcloseupa2.jpg)
By johnlear (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/johnlear) at 2012-03-03
(http://a.imageshack.us/img404/5808/culegend.jpg)
By johnlear (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/johnlear) at 2012-03-03
(http://a.imageshack.us/img818/9688/s4fly.jpg)
By johnlear (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/johnlear) at 2012-03-03
(http://a.imageshack.us/img37/5117/bobslab.jpg)
By johnlear (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/johnlear) at 2012-03-03
Quote from: Littleenki on March 04, 2012, 03:27:07 AM
A small lake? A cubic lake next to a dry lake?
A false door 400 ft on a side? What do the hinges look like?
How do you open a door 400 ft. on a side? And what is a false door?
A door that is not there?
Hi John,
I was discussing S4 a few weeks ago with a respected researcher.. and he claimed that he had investigated the geology of the land where S4 is claimed to be . He said that he had been told by what I assume was some expert in that field that he did not think it would be possible to create a underground facility next to a dry lake ( Too soft ground) or on sloping Mountain terrain for what ever the type of Rock. I am not sure what the main rock base around S4..
I believe the construction tunneling company EG&G had built several underground facilities between Mercury ( tunnels where they did the Nukes) and Groom lake. So I would had thought that they would be able to have created a facility that goes into the ground or into the side of the sloping terrain.
Just wondered if you had questioned or researched into this in the past ?
I am going to have to sign off to later on in the next half of the day.
S-4 is built into the side of the mountain exactly where Bob said it was and where I put it on the map.
No need to research because a film studio had a computer program where Bob gave them the approximate speed and time to S-4 from Groom Lake. It all matched to where he said it was.
All this was done about 22 years ago.
Quote from: johnlear on March 04, 2012, 04:37:40 AM
A small lake? A cubic lake next to a dry lake?
A false door 400 ft on a side? What do the hinges look like?
How do you open a door 400 ft. on a side? And what is a false door?
A door that is not there?
Well, John, I wonder about that "lake", and it's cubic shape. That's what made me think of missing parts of the DEM because those parts are usually indicated by missing pixels, and when animated, make a squarish sort of anomaly. Odd! Manmade? Yep! I think so.
Oh, and a false door, is more like saying, "a door that you shouldnt know about" ;)
True, a 400 foot actual "door" would be way a challenge for current engineering, or would it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowboys_Stadium
I wonder if they have the giant TV, too?
Interesting, and I hope you have nice weekend, John.
Cheers!
Littleenki
Hi John,
I had seen created images that suggested that the Hangers on the lower terrain slope that was close to the lake bed..
I saw a series of images that suggested that saucers come out of hanger doors and hover just above the lake bed. and that may have even landed on the dry Lake.
Also that the hangers seemed to be more on the North facing side of the terrain of that image that you created . Your image seems to point more south.
I am Not sure if that using a computer program to estimate Bobs
speed and time details would be strong evidence to confirm that
the base is where Bob Claimed..I would had thought that he could say where something is on any map and work out some calculations and offer that data to a programmer and let him confirm it.
I don't really think that the Geology would be a major problem if they
wanted to build a base, they could probably do so in difficult terrain
if they want to..even if its not the best of options.
I have looked for a few hours trying to find the Images that you posted on " open Minds" but so far I have not been able to find them.
------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: johnlear on March 04, 2012, 05:07:06 AM
S-4 is built into the side of the mountain exactly where Bob said it was and where I put it on the map.
No need to research because a film studio had a computer program where Bob gave them the approximate speed and time to S-4 from Groom Lake. It all matched to where he said it was.
All this was done about 22 years ago.
Quote from: johnlear on March 03, 2012, 09:54:24 AM
Here is a map of where we were standing (white arrow). The saucer was at the blue dot. I have noted where Groom Lake, Papoose Lake, the Black mailbox, Hiway 375 (the Extraterrestrial Highway), and Bald Mt. are.
The mileage from where we were was 17 miles to Groom Lake and 26 miles to Papoose Lake.
We watched it for about 3 or 4 minutes and then when it quit moving and started to descend I got it with my Celestron 8 for about 10 to 15 seconds. It looked like typical disc shape, with a yellowish, goldish 'something' radiating from it. It did not fly again that night.
(http://a.imageshack.us/img836/2489/march221989view.jpg)
By johnlear (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/johnlear) at 2012-03-03
Thanks for the details and the map John.
I see it indicates you saw it hovering over Groom Lake.
Could you explain where the saucer appeared to come from and returned to?
Thanks
This gives some idea of what has been witnessed at Night above Area 51.
I have searched quite some time trying to find night shots of Glowing lights above the mystery base...
This may be similar to what can be seen from Groom Lake Road.
But these were taken from Mount Sterling close west to Mount Charleston,
This is where it is said that Papoose Lake /S4 is Visible 45 miles away.
http://www.area51aliens.com/More%20Pictures.html
I recall a story of a Archaeologist called Jerry Freeman who claims that he ventured into Area 51 borders and visited Papoose Lake trying to find
an inscription made in 1849 by a member of a lost and desperate wagon train that eventually gave Death Valley its name. Also, Freeman wanted to see Papoose Dry Lake, the last place where the group of would-be gold-diggers camped together before splintering in search of water.
I thought it was a fascinating Story and did read somewhere that he may had done it twice..
http://web.archive.org/web/20060422222649/www.lasvegassun.com/dossier/events/journey/index.html
Take a artificial flight over Area 51 and its surrounding area.
If you go to the bottom of the page of the webpage below you can download a file that allows you to have an aerial view over Area 51..
That is an alternative to google Earth.
http://www.sushi-x.com/gallery/nonseq/dreamland/dreamland.html
Quote from: astr0144 on March 20, 2012, 02:10:35 AM
I recall a story of a Archaeologist called Jerry Freeman who claims that he ventured into Area 51 borders and visited Papoose Lake trying to find
an inscription made in 1849 by a member of a lost and desperate wagon train that eventually gave Death Valley its name. Also, Freeman wanted to see Papoose Dry Lake, the last place where the group of would-be gold-diggers camped together before splintering in search of water.
I thought it was a fascinating Story and did read somewhere that he may had done it twice..
http://web.archive.org/web/20060422222649/www.lasvegassun.com/dossier/events/journey/index.html
He did it more than once, and was never able to find the last inscription, though, so he gave up. The trips he took inside the areas were akin to suicide for a civilian to be snooping around in there, and he had to travel light, so he didnt bring enough supplies for the whole trip. Its a cool story, and shows one man's passion and what he'll do to appease it.
LE
I wonder if John has any other references to what he says is the new Area 51 UFO testing area at Wendover...
Has there been anyone who has witnessed them with any visual recordings...
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/forum/index.php?topic=1391.0
Zorgon,
Have you just added this thread recently or updated it...
The date says July 25th....I seem to recall seeing some of this before some weeks ago...but Not all...
It looks great content !
Bob Lazar - Gravity Propulsion
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/forum/index.php?topic=2135.0