An exclusive interview - to me, one of the most interesting things discussed in this video is a new image of Mars taken by Hubble that does show Mars in all of its glory. Dr. Jennifer Wiseman of NASA is interviewed, and she does very openly answer the question of "what is that blue tint around the edge" (of Mars") in the photo!! When Dr. Wiseman answers, she refers to it as "bluish-white wispy color" CLOUDS!!!!
Space.com
NASA's Dr. Jennifer Wiseman explains why capturing imagery of the Red Planet with the Hubble Space Telescope is still important, even with multiple missions studying it on the surface and from orbit. Mars is at opposition on May 22, 2016 and its closest approach to Earth occurs on May 30th.
http://www.space.com/32947-why-is-hubble-taking-pictures-of-mars-exclusive-interview-video.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmo9_YguzXE
that bluish tint appeared when the Indians took pictures from their sat too. albeit they dropped in some of their own red in
(http://i.imgur.com/X8uCaPX.jpg)
funbox
Nice Video,
Showing some good images of Mars as well as Jupiter and Saturn.
The Bluish White color maybe as indicated by Funbox..
but it also reminds me of what seems like an atmosphere..
Do we get similar when seeing Earth from a distance only maybe Earth stands out more as it does have a major / larger atmosphere.
The Video images also show what seems like white cloud..
A older image of Mar such as this one does show a slight Blue tint around it but it does not seem to stand out as well as the video image..
(http://www.space.com/images/i/000/047/514/i620/nasa-hubble-mars-2003.jpg?1431061006)
The Images remind me of some of the early images by telescope we used to see of it maybe before the space probes. Only Hubble no doubt has much clearer images...
Its good to see Mars so close and it stands out in the sky at the moment along with Saturn...Good to see its rings with a small telescope at the moment..as the rings are in an ideal position.
(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/76Jy386wUz9evf4iCsVE9Q--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9ODAwO2g9NDgw/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/SPACE.com/Saturn_Dances_with_the_Moon-2b9e9a92936e5e9701d6048f6289df57)
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/saturn-dances-moon-tonight-see-131038579.html
QuoteAn exclusive interview - to me, one of the most interesting things discussed in this video is a new image of Mars taken by Hubble that does show Mars in all of its glory. Dr. Jennifer Wiseman of NASA is interviewed, and she does very openly answer the question of "what is that blue tint around the edge" (of Mars") in the photo!! When Dr. Wiseman answers, she refers to it as "bluish-white wispy color" CLOUDS!!!!
astr0144 said,
Showing some good images of Mars as well as Jupiter and Saturn.
The Bluish White color maybe as indicated by Funbox..
but it also reminds me of what seems like an atmosphere..
Do we get similar when seeing Earth from a distance only maybe Earth stands out more as it does have a major / larger atmosphere.
The Video images also show what seems like white cloud..
A older image of Mar such as this one does show a slight Blue tint around it but it does not seem to stand out as well as the video image..
Clouds for sure!!!! NASA rep Dr. Wiseman very openly said in the video, "we see clouds around the whole planet"! She also said, "And we can see clouds surrounding an extinct volcano"!
So, doesn't that pretty much mean that we should know for sure that Mars does have some sort of atmosphere, and that atmosphere has white to blueish tinted clouds? We can see what we see, and that makes it pretty hard for NASA to deny the facts of this matter doesn't it. ;D
I am contented / relieved that my comments may have referred to your own thoughts on it ! :)
Its a while since I have given much thought about such things and one is never certain of past facts without trying to recheck..
what I mean Is I am not sure if I have seen any similar images that may show clouds in the past images that I have seen of Mars.. or are these new ones shown in the video now maybe new !...
IF so... then is it a case that for some reason they all of a sudden have released such images...
The thing with Mars if I recall.. it has high winds and dust storms..but one may think them as being reddish.. NOT White !
So maybe at the moment the White is something new !
Have they been hiding it over the years ...OR... have they or something... somehow recreated the atmosphere like we see in some of the Sci Fi Movies where Aliens or even man came up with a way to re boost the planets atmosphere / environment ...
It maybe that the blue Tint has been visible for some time but maybe not as much as shown in the video..
If you are others have more knowledge of such things or studied it in more detail or over more time...it will be interesting to consider their thoughts on it..
Lastly , I think that it has been said that Mars does / has always have some atmosphere..but it maybe as to what degree..and one may question has it more recently increased based on what we have observed..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Mars
QuoteThe atmosphere of Mars is the layer of gases surrounding Mars. It is composed mostly of carbon dioxide. The atmospheric pressure on the Martian surface averages 600 pascals (0.087 psi; 6.0 mbar), about 0.6% of Earth's mean sea level pressure of 101.3 kilopascals (14.69 psi; 1,013 mbar). It ranges from a low of 30 pascals (0.0044 psi; 0.30 mbar) on Olympus Mons's peak to over 1,155 pascals (0.1675 psi; 11.55 mbar) in the depths of Hellas Planitia. This pressure is well below the Armstrong limit for the unprotected human body. Mars's atmospheric mass of 25 teratonnes compares to Earth's 5148 teratonnes with a scale height of about 11 kilometres (6.8 mi) versus Earth's 7 kilometres (4.3 mi).
The Martian atmosphere consists of approximately 96% carbon dioxide, 1.9% argon, 1.9% nitrogen, and traces of free oxygen, carbon monoxide, water and methane, among other gases,[1] for a mean molar mass of 43.34 g/mol.[2][3] There has been renewed interest in its composition since the detection of traces of methane in 2003[4][5] that may indicate life but may also be produced by a geochemical process, volcanic or hydrothermal activity.[6]
QuoteSo, doesn't that pretty much mean that we should know for sure that Mars does have some sort of atmosphere, and that atmosphere has white to blueish tinted clouds? We can see what we see, and that makes it pretty hard for NASA to deny the facts of this matter doesn't it. ;D
Quote from: ArMaP on May 24, 2016, 09:10:40 PM
Why the surprise? ???
yes why as far as clouds NASA has mentioned and shown them many times over the years.
So I think you both have observed and maybe took more interest in Mars in the past as well as recall...to compare the images / video of the Clouds or bluish ting...and do not see any real variation between the date of the recent video images and past ones over a set time , say over the last 10 to 20 years..
I think I do recall clouds in some past images..but was not sure how they compared to the recent images..and I suspect maybe the same for RDunk..
Unless he believes different..and may be able to offer reasons why he referred to it..
Dyna
Quoteyes why as far as clouds NASA has mentioned and shown them many times over the years.
Quote from: ArMaP on May 24, 2016, 09:10:40 PM
Why the surprise? ???
Why is Hubble taking pictures of Mars?
Because it can Rdunk, because it can. ;D
,, , sorry, just couldn't help myself. :P :)
Quote from: Norval on May 25, 2016, 02:46:29 AM
Why is Hubble taking pictures of Mars?
Because it can Rdunk, because it can. ;D
,, , sorry, just couldn't help myself. :P :)
:) :) For sure!! But there are times when NASA does not let Hubble do its full thing with is capabilities - such as with the Moon~! Has NASA yet even allowed Hubble to view the Moon with its infrared capabilities?? And, as close as Hubble is to the Moon, shouldn't it be able to really get some good cleat pics??
Regarding Mars, yes NASA has finally opened up about clouds, but we have been seeing them in the various Orbiter and Rover photos for sometime, before the finally admitted it - kinda like the water that for sure wasn't there, but guess what, now it is there!! :o
http://mars.nasa.gov/MPF/science/clouds.html
http://mars.nasa.gov/MPF/ops/clouds_sunset.html
MOVIE OF CLOUDS ON MARS. CREDIT: NASA/JPL/UOFA
2 Jul , 2009 by Nancy Atkinson
http://www.universetoday.com/33894/phoenix-lander-team-it-rains-at-night-on-mars/snow-clouds-2/
June 20, 2008
Clouds over crater
High ice cloud over Mars' limb.
http://archive.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/06/martian_skies.html
\year after year NASA has stuff about clouds on Mars.
Quote from: rdunk on May 25, 2016, 04:07:38 AM
Regarding Mars, yes NASA has finally opened up about clouds, but we have been seeing them in the various Orbiter and Rover photos for sometime, before the finally admitted it - kinda like the water that for sure wasn't there, but guess what, now it is there!! :o
Why do you say that they "opened up about clouds"? Just because you didn't noticed it it doesn't mean they were not talking about them openly at least since the first Mars rover, Pathfinder, in 1997.
Quote from: ArMaP on May 25, 2016, 09:25:30 AM
Why do you say that they "opened up about clouds"? Just because you didn't noticed it it doesn't mean they were not talking about them openly at least since the first Mars rover, Pathfinder, in 1997.
This lady was far more open about the detail of the clouds than any other I have heard! But talking a little about clouds is one thing, but actually showing them is another. Isn't it rather a rare photo that actually shows the Mars clouds? I don't think I have seen a single cloud in all of the Mars orbiter photos I have reviewed. Have you?? Then, as I recall, we have only see a very few clouds in the many many Rover photos, and Z has posted them here several times. How is it that if there are considerable clouds on Mars, why are we not generally seeing them is these many thousands of Mars photos that "show the sky"?? Of course all of the Mars orbiter photos are taken "through the sky" - where are the clouds??
I have a book, part of a pocket-size encyclopaedia with several volumes, each one dedicated to a topic, that my father bought. The original was German, and the Portuguese version has a copyright notice from April 1965.
In the section about Mars it says: It's also visible, often, thin layers of clouds and fog, made probably of ice crystals, which dissolve during the day.
QuoteIsn't it rather a rare photo that actually shows the Mars clouds?
Yes, they are relatively rare, but not that much.
QuoteI don't think I have seen a single cloud in all of the Mars orbiter photos I have reviewed. Have you??
Yes, I have seen some, one of the orbiters (I don't remember which one) had/has a camera with several filters, and one of those (I think it was the orange filter) was chosen to make it easier to photograph the clouds.
I will look for more information about it. :)
QuoteHow is it that if there are considerable clouds on Mars, why are we not generally seeing them is these many thousands of Mars photos that "show the sky"??
It may be a result of the places where the rovers landed, close to the equator. Phoenix landed close to the north pole and, if I'm not mistaken, got some photos with clouds (besides a few photos with what appears to be frost in one of the lander's legs).
QuoteOf course all of the Mars orbiter photos are taken "through the sky" - where are the clouds??
Most (if not all) of the orbiters are there to photograph the ground, so that's natural that they focus more on land features than on the clouds, but, as I said above, I think there was/is a specific mission to study Mars' atmosphere.
Also, I think it's easier to see thin clouds from below than from above.
Cloud photos from Mars.
Viking 1 Orbiter
(http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/imgcat/hires/vo1_058a02.gif)
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/PIA03213.jpg)
(http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/imgcat/hires/vo1_225a05.gif)
(http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/imgcat/hires/vo1_738a27.gif)
Mars Global Surveyor
(http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/jpeg/PIA02006.jpg)
(http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/jpeg/PIA02005.jpg)
Mars Pathfinder
(http://mars.nasa.gov/MPF/ops/83616f.jpg)
(http://mars.nasa.gov/MPF/ops/sr39_32.jpg)
(http://mars.nasa.gov/MPF/ops/clouds_pic.jpg)
(http://mars.nasa.gov/MPF/ops/cloud1_m.gif)
(http://mars.nasa.gov/MPF/ops/82453_full.jpg)
Opportunity
(http://mars.nasa.gov/mer/gallery/press/opportunity/20041213a/merb_sol291_clouds-B313R1_br.jpg)
(http://mars.nasa.gov/mer/gallery/press/opportunity/20041213a/merb_sol290_clouds-B313R1_br.jpg)
(http://mars.nasa.gov/mer/gallery/press/opportunity/20040818a/06-OSS-01-Clouds-B202R1.jpg)
Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter
(http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/figures/PIA19846_fig1.jpg)
Phoenix
(http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/279786main_16405.gif)
Mars Express
(http://38.media.tumblr.com/2a7db6e9a7b8a1c2345c956714c1b6ce/tumblr_nusjgh9AB31qlyoivo2_500.gif)
not many from curiosity eh ArMaP ? saying that, I cant say I've seen too many, unless we include the milky haze around mount sharp
funbox
Quote from: rdunk on May 24, 2016, 04:30:58 PM
So, doesn't that pretty much mean that we should know for sure that Mars does have some sort of atmosphere, and that atmosphere has white to blueish tinted clouds? We can see what we see, and that makes it pretty hard for NASA to deny the facts of this matter doesn't it. ;D
So who ever said that Mars has no atmosphere and no clouds?
::)
For years I have shown you NASA pictures of clouds and dust devils on Mars. In fact the rovers have lasted as long as they did BECAUSE the winds blow the dust off the solar panels.
NASA has never hidden the fact that there is atmosphere on Mars and the sky's look BLUE when there is no dust storm. But then Earth skys look red during a dust storm too :P
NASA also has always said there is an atmosphere on the moon as well The only point of contention is HOW MUCH :P
You guys amaze me :P Never pay attention in class
::)
Clouds Move Across Mars Horizon
Phoenix Lander (http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/04images/Mars5/Phoenix/Clouds_Phoenix_vid_02.gif)
Ice Clouds in Martian Arctic
(Accelerated Movie)
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/04images/Mars5/Phoenix/Clouds_Phoenix_vid_01.gif)
Dust Devil Near Spirit, Sol 446
(http://mars.nasa.gov/mer/gallery/press/spirit/20050506a/dd_enhanced_456e-A476R1.gif)
Quote from: zorgon on July 05, 2016, 06:25:52 PM
Ice Clouds in Martian Arctic
(Accelerated Movie)
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/04images/Mars5/Phoenix/Clouds_Phoenix_vid_01.gif)
Dust Devil Near Spirit, Sol 446
(http://mars.nasa.gov/mer/gallery/press/spirit/20050506a/dd_enhanced_456e-A476R1.gif)
interesting the devil leaves little or no destruction in its wake , do you have the link to the individual pics .. wouldn't mind seeing in close
funbox
Quote from: zorgon on July 05, 2016, 06:25:52 PM
Ice Clouds in Martian Arctic
(Accelerated Movie)
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/04images/Mars5/Phoenix/Clouds_Phoenix_vid_01.gif)
Dust Devil Near Spirit, Sol 446
(http://mars.nasa.gov/mer/gallery/press/spirit/20050506a/dd_enhanced_456e-A476R1.gif)
Those are indeed a couple of the best shots Z.
Certainly more atmosphere than we were led to believe in the early days.
It looks like you could spend a nice afternoon flying kites there.
Quote from: funbox on July 05, 2016, 08:07:20 PM
interesting the devil leaves little or no destruction in its wake , do you have the link to the individual pics .. wouldn't mind seeing in close
Are are the photo IDs for that particular dust-devil.
2n166841247esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841267esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841288esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841308esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841328esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841349esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841369esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841389esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841409esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841429esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841449esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841469esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841489esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841509esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841529esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841549esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841585esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841624esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841667esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841712esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841754esfa9dwp1560l0m1
And a GIF made with those images, without any enhancements.
(http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r66/armap/Sol%20456%202.gif)
Edit: I forgot to say that on this page (http://mars.nasa.gov/mer/gallery/panoramas/spirit/2005.html) you can see several dust devils.
Quote from: ArMaP on July 06, 2016, 01:09:06 AM
Are are the photo IDs for that particular dust-devil.
2n166841247esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841267esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841288esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841308esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841328esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841349esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841369esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841389esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841409esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841429esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841449esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841469esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841489esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841509esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841529esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841549esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841585esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841624esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841667esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841712esfa9dwp1560l0m1
2n166841754esfa9dwp1560l0m1
And a GIF made with those images, without any enhancements.
(http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r66/armap/Sol%20456%202.gif)
Edit: I forgot to say that on this page (http://mars.nasa.gov/mer/gallery/panoramas/spirit/2005.html) you can see several dust devils.
I think Zorgon's gif is a fine example of how image adjustment can bring out the finer detail.... don't you ? :D
funbox
Quote from: funbox on July 06, 2016, 06:15:38 AM
I think Zorgon's gif is a fine example of how image adjustment can bring out the finer detail.... don't you ? :D
I do, and I also think that, when an enhancement is presented it should be presented as that. :)
Quote from: ArMaP on July 06, 2016, 02:12:40 PM
I do, and I also think that, when an enhancement is presented it should be presented as that. :)
do you consider other scientific tools and instruments also as enhancements, ie spectrometry , radiography , microscopes, so on and so forth , intermediary's to the electromagnetic spectrum as such, and do they, in your opinion carry the same
connotations as the word 'enhancements' in photographic imagery manipulation ?
funbox
:D Great job with the images of the clouds Armap..[grin] I thought there was plenty of evidence of clouds on Mars , but you just proved that in spades!!
gave you a gold for that !
OOPS...sorry , you also Zorgon... I knew I had seen cloud stuff on Mars ;D
Quote from: funbox on July 06, 2016, 07:27:47 PM
do you consider other scientific tools and instruments also as enhancements, ie spectrometry , radiography , microscopes, so on and so forth , intermediary's to the electromagnetic spectrum as such, and do they, in your opinion carry the same connotations as the word 'enhancements' in photographic imagery manipulation ?
What a strange question.
Spectrometry and radiography are, like photography, techniques to capture information.
Microscopes are instruments that can be used in several techniques.
Enhancement in photography imagery doesn't carry any connotation (at least to me), it's an (usually) subjective way of pointing some thing in an image data set by making it more visible, sometimes by reducing the amount of information available in the whole image.
Quote from: ArMaP on July 07, 2016, 12:30:49 AM
What a strange question.
Spectrometry and radiography are, like photography, techniques to capture information.
Microscopes are instruments that can be used in several techniques.
Enhancement in photography imagery doesn't carry any connotation (at least to me), it's an (usually) subjective way of pointing some thing in an image data set by making it more visible, sometimes by reducing the amount of information available in the whole image.
there's no subjectivity from Photoshop's perspective, enhancements are based around algorithms,, mathematical equations ,.. the computer does not have the luxury of subjectivity, in cannot by its own choosing make a photograph more anomalous via its own volition ,
amplification , interpolation of size , colours, contrast. all controlled by the machine..
the user can bend data from all machines, so really its the user that is the final filter
do you ever question data sets that aren't so easily scrutinised, as say, a photo , in relation to say, the data sets from other instruments on the rover..
do you think the data set from the rover climate monitoring instruments , corroborate with what you see ?
a strange question ? ..pure fiction
funbox
Quote from: funbox on July 07, 2016, 02:03:44 AM
there's no subjectivity from Photoshop's perspective, enhancements are based around algorithms,, mathematical equations ,.. the computer does not have the luxury of subjectivity, in cannot by its own choosing make a photograph more anomalous via its own volition ,
amplification , interpolation of size , colours, contrast. all controlled by the machine..
Perspective, amplification, interpolation of size (I suppose you mean resampling), change of colour(s) and contrast are not, in themselves, enhancements, they are tools that can be used to enhance an image or part of an image. Yes, they are based on algorithms, but what the user chooses to do with them is not.
Quotethe user can bend data from all machines, so really its the user that is the final filter
Obviously.
Quotedo you ever question data sets that aren't so easily scrutinised, as say, a photo , in relation to say, the data sets from other instruments on the rover..
The same thing as with photos, when those data sets are presented in non-scientific formats, like a chart on an web page. Highly compressed JPEGs is not the original format used, so I look for the original format.
A pretty chart is not the original format, so I will look for the original format (usually just raw data in some tabular form).
Quotedo you think the data set from the rover climate monitoring instruments , corroborate with what you see ?
With what I see where?
Quotea strange question ? ..pure fiction
To me is a strange question, as I don't see the relevance.
Quote from: ArMaP on July 07, 2016, 02:14:01 PM
The same thing as with photos, when those data sets are presented in non-scientific formats, like a chart on an web page. Highly compressed JPEGs is not the original format used, so I look for the original format.
A pretty chart is not the original format, so I will look for the original format (usually just raw data in some tabular form).
that's not what I meant , I mean the numbers/ hard data , instruments of almost non variability within their accepted variations , take temperature for example .. do you cast your eye on these solid number as you would a photograph of mount sharp, do you question the numbers? , try to correlate them with what you see in the cam pics ?
QuoteWith what I see where?
see above
QuoteTo me is a strange question, as I don't see the relevance.
and now ?
funbox
Quote from: funbox on July 08, 2016, 10:53:56 PM
that's not what I meant , I mean the numbers/ hard data , instruments of almost non variability within their accepted variations , take temperature for example .. do you cast your eye on these solid number as you would a photograph of mount sharp, do you question the numbers? , try to correlate them with what you see in the cam pics ?
See my previous answer. I trust raw data.
And I still think it's a strange question, as you are comparing the data gathered by some kind of instrument to photo enhancements that depend on what the user chose.
Quote from: ArMaP on July 09, 2016, 03:38:43 PM
And I still think it's a strange question, as you are comparing the data gathered by some kind of instrument to photo enhancements that depend on what the user chose.
*[brackets] electromagnetic spectrum into manageable chunks, Gamma rays get segregated, the invert filter gets pressed, polar opposites get flipped, the shadows get illuminated..* perfectly cogent analogy ArMaP, I feel :D
QuoteSee my previous answer. I trust raw data.
scales and frameworks on the accepted bases, which are usually bias to some theorem or other, aren't raw data, human interpretation is all that's on offer and never anything but , irrespective of all system of analysis..
or did you mean something different by 'Raw data'
funbox
Quote from: funbox on July 09, 2016, 07:02:40 PM
*[brackets] electromagnetic spectrum into manageable chunks, Gamma rays get segregated, the invert filter gets pressed, polar opposites get flipped, the shadows get illuminated..*
I don't understand what you mean by that. ???
Quotescales and frameworks on the accepted bases, which are usually bias to some theorem or other, aren't raw data, human interpretation is all that's on offer and never anything but , irrespective of all system of analysis..
or did you mean something different by 'Raw data'
Raw data means exactly that, raw data, in this case the data as it was gathered by the instruments. If I say that the temperature outside my window is 28ºC I'm obviously basing it on a reference system, but it's still raw data, and it can be translated into any other scale or reference system. It's not interpretation, interpretation could be something like saying "it's hot". The value on the thermometer doesn't change because of the interpretation someone can make
QuoteRaw data means exactly that, raw data, in this case the data as it was gathered by the instruments. If I say that the temperature outside my window is 28ºC I'm obviously basing it on a reference system, but it's still raw data,
raw data means raw data ? now that is pure fiction, raw data could only come from the universes instruction Manuel , given were just a blip in the book, I hardly feel we can say were getting raw information .. the machines, then us, filter it imagine if you will if you could see it all.. now that would be Raw :D
funbox*
*not feeding the other thread for sag
Quote from: funbox on July 10, 2016, 01:00:32 AM
raw data means raw data ?
I think this one is obvious. ::)
Quotenow that is pure fiction, raw data could only come from the universes instruction Manuel ,
My second name is Manuel, so I must be right. :P
Quotegiven were just a blip in the book, I hardly feel we can say were getting raw information .. the machines, then us, filter it imagine if you will if you could see it all.. now that would be Raw :D
OK, let's do things slowly, one step at a time.
What is data?
QuoteOK, let's do things slowly, one step at a time.
What is data?
a human construct... :D >= data
what is raw?
funbox
Quote from: funbox on July 10, 2016, 01:28:12 AM
a human construct... :D >= data
That's where we start to disagree. To me, data is information, it's a property of something that can be measured.
The way it's measured and the way the measures are represented are based on human constructs, data itself is not.
Temperature, for example, is one of those properties, and it can be felt by other animals besides humans, so it cannot be a human construct.
Quote from: ArMaP on July 10, 2016, 11:56:13 AM
That's where we start to disagree. To me, data is information, it's a property of something that can be measured.
The way it's measured and the way the measures are represented are based on human constructs, data itself is not.
Temperature, for example, is one of those properties, and it can be felt by other animals besides humans, so it cannot be a human construct.
shall we save the philosophical/metaphysical argument, it will only get bogged Down and convoluted .. suffice to say ive never heard an animal convert c to f or use a thermometer .. I suppose your going to be dragging the children into it next.. have you no compassion ?
funbox
Quote from: funbox on July 10, 2016, 01:33:56 PM
shall we save the philosophical/metaphysical argument, it will only get bogged Down and convoluted ..
You should have thought of that when you asked the question that lead to this. ;D
Quotesuffice to say ive never heard an animal convert c to f or use a thermometer ..
Neither have I, and that's why I didn't say something like that, I said that they felt the difference, so can you please give a straight answer now? Do you think that animals feel differences in temperature? Yes or no?
QuoteI suppose your going to be dragging the children into it next..
No.
Quotehave you no compassion ?
For people trying to avoid straight answers? None. ;D
Quote from: ArMaP on July 10, 2016, 05:22:14 PM
Neither have I, and that's why I didn't say something like that, I said that they felt the difference, so can you please give a straight answer now? Do you think that animals feel differences in temperature? Yes or no?
indeed, just like pine combs, but like I said , these things don't walk around with vacuum sealed mecury vials , or ipod wielding apps ,neither do they have constructed languages and number systems to describe and collate, they have eyes though , or some of them , maybe some of them wonder why the tiger they've spotted is wobbling in the heat haze ... and consider the tigers thoughts , are they taking advantage of the areas where the earth is scorched and hot, using visible references of heat to their advantage?
hence I ask you again if you cast an eye on the numbers, the so called 'raw data' as you do with the mars images , and do you , like the tiger, find correlations within the environment to this data?
QuoteFor people trying to avoid straight answers? None. ;D
indeed
funbox
Quote from: funbox on July 10, 2016, 07:52:51 PM
indeed, just like pine combs
What are "pine combs"? ???
Quotebut like I said , these things don't walk around with vacuum sealed mecury vials , or ipod wielding apps ,neither do they have constructed languages and number systems to describe and collate, they have eyes though , or some of them , maybe some of them wonder why the tiger they've spotted is wobbling in the heat haze ... and consider the tigers thoughts , are they taking advantage of the areas where the earth is scorched and hot, using visible references of heat to their advantage?
What they do with it doesn't change the fact that, if they feel it, it cannot be a human construct, right?
Quotehence I ask you again if you cast an eye on the numbers, the so called 'raw data' as you do with the mars images , and do you , like the tiger, find correlations within the environment to this data?
I don't understand what do you mean by "find correlations within the environment to this data". Could you be more specific?
QuoteWhat are "pine combs"? ???
pine cones , sorry :D
QuoteWhat they do with it doesn't change the fact that, if they feel it, it cannot be a human construct, right?
wrong , putting a system of measurements upon temperature is a human construction and animal reaction to , say to much heat is to drink water , a thermometers reaction is for the mercury inside to expand in a tube to a scale of humanly constructed numbers..
your not daft enough to believe I think that varying degrees of movement *hot/cold* are not occurring outside of the human mind to consider them do you?
although it could be argued that all sensory perceptions are boiled down to movements of electricity within a bag of mostly water, so all data is transferred out of it's raw state via perception and consideration alone , even to consider anything at all via the senses, then the brain, is to bastardise complete external energy movements beyond any form of raw information your intending to collect
QuoteI don't understand what do you mean by "find correlations within the environment to this data". Could you be more specific?
say on a really hot day at noon , do you see any heat haze ?
I thought the tiger story was a clue too :D
funbox
Quote from: funbox on July 11, 2016, 01:05:21 AM
wrong , putting a system of measurements upon temperature is a human construction and animal reaction to , say to much heat is to drink water , a thermometers reaction is for the mercury inside to expand in a tube to a scale of humanly constructed numbers..
To me, those are two different things: the fact that temperature exists and has different levels and the fact that humans measure it with devices made for that purpose and use at least three different scales to represent those levels.
Quoteyour not daft enough to believe I think that varying degrees of movement *hot/cold* are not occurring outside of the human mind to consider them do you?
No, I just hate misunderstandings and like clear answers. :)
Quotesay on a really hot day at noon , do you see any heat haze ?
I understand it now, thanks. No, I haven't seen any correlation between the data from the photos and other data, like temperature, although I have seen what looks like seasonal changes, like areas apparently covered by ice changing size with the change of seasons, or those "slope streaks" that appear in warmer seasons.
But other people, apparently, have seen, as you can see here (http://www.skyandtelescope.com/astronomy-news/curiosity-sees-seasonal-trends-on-mars/).
QuoteI thought the tiger story was a clue too :D
It wasn't because I didn't understand what you meant by that, sometimes I have a hard time understanding the way you write. :(
Quote from: ArMaP on July 11, 2016, 11:35:46 AM
I understand it now, thanks. No, I haven't seen any correlation between the data from the photos and other data, like temperature, although I have seen what looks like seasonal changes, like areas apparently covered by ice changing size with the change of seasons, or those "slope streaks" that appear in warmer seasons.
But other people, apparently, have seen, as you can see here.
shame they wasn't looking around much when they discovered the methane spike, that they're not attributing to seasonal conditions but connecting at the same time to summer sun..
QuoteThe methane measurements Curiosity has taken over the last two Martian years also show a "background" level that falls mostly between 0.3 and 0.8 ppbv and possibly follows seasonal patterns. The 7 ppbv spike happened for several weeks during the first autumn, so mission scientists checked carefully for a repeat spike during the second autumn. But concentrations stayed low.
"Doing a second year told us right away that the spike was not a seasonal effect," said Christopher Webster (JPL) of the SAM team in a press release. "It's apparently an episodic event that we may or may not ever see again."
The mission continues to monitor methane levels, which appear to be even lower in autumn than in other seasons. If confirmed, the low autumn level could be a delayed reaction to summer's high ultraviolet radiation
but they don't say what high ultraviolet radiation is degrading to create a spike ..
such high clarity from nasa again
funbox
QuoteIt would, but from what I remember of that situation, it was a GIF made with photos that showed a specific area from more than 2 three or four different positions, and the problem with that is that with 2 images we can make a stereo image that our brains convert to a 3D scene like they are used to do in our everyday life, but with more images we need them to be very similar, with small differences in perspective, so we can see the resulting animation more as a short movie of the area than as a slideshow of photos taken from different positions.
come now ArMaP , the pictures we had weren't vastly different, the biggest problem we had,was the mildly different focal lengths , but still quite valid for discerning interconnections of matter from separated/isolated structures and shadows .
.. I suppose it all down to the perceiver, some brains can take more info than other I guess :D
funbox
Quote from: funbox on July 11, 2016, 02:41:53 PM
.. I suppose it all down to the perceiver, some brains can take more info than other I guess :D
It's mostly that it's easier to understand things when they are similar to what we see everyday. Also, many people have problems understanding perspective, so unusual changes in perspective only make things harder to understand for people like that.
Could Hubble have been looking for this message? :o
Morse code' pattern covers sand dune on Mars
Did they get the message right i wonder.
NASA has spotted a series of strange, dark dunes on Mars that look uncannily like the dots and dashes that make up Morse code.
(http://www.sciencealert.com/images/articles/processed/MarsMorse_web_1024.jpg)
So what do the sands of Mars have to tell us? According to Bray:
NEE NED ZB 6TNN DEIBEDH SIEFI EBEEE SSIEI ESEE SEEE !!
http://www.sciencealert.com/astronomers-just-discovered-a-morse-code-message-in-the-dunes-of-mars