Turin Shroud 'is not a medieval forgery'

[zorgon]

Don't be such a sceptic, now I don't have anything to say about it. 

My apologies Herr Skeptic

... won't happen again

[zorgon]

...so would be the shroud, if it is real,

The authenticity of the shroud doesn't really matter, in the reality of the Christian faith.

If the shroud is real...............

This is why I have issues with Christian logic   

...never let truth get in the way of a good story

[starwarp2000]

I am of the opinion that the figure depicted on the Shroud, isn't that of Christ but of Jacques de Molay, the last leader of the Templars.
He was crucified, burned and beheaded..... (Varying methods from various sources).
That great source Wikipedia says he was just burned

The Shroud of Turin

Geoffroi de Charny (the French Knight who died at the 1356 battle of Poitiers) and his wife Jeanne de Vergy are the first reliably recorded owners of the Turin Shroud. This Geoffroi participated in a failed crusade under Humbert II of Viennois in the late 1340s.[25] He is sometimes confused with Templar Geoffroi de Charney.[26]
Historical origin of "Inquisition" charge of an idol of a bearded man

As stated above, of the five original accusations made against the Knights Templars one was the "worshipping of an idol of a man with a long beard". It specifically states: "...The cord which the Templars wore over the shirt day and night as a symbol of chastity had been consecrated by wrapping it around an idol in the form of a human head with a great beard, and this head was adored in the chapters..." [27] The image was never found. It never mentions the image to be de Molay. Further it seems to describe a rounded idol. If it existed at all (and was not just a product of torture), it could not have been the Shroud of Turin just by its description. There were many early iconic images of a bearded Jesus that existed at that time.[28]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_de_Molay

Either the idol that is referenced in that reference or the dead shroud of the Templar leader, it doesn't matter.
Catholics like worshiping symbols, idols, demons...... let them, the rest of us will get on with our lives!

[Sgt.Rocknroll]

I really should just not say anything, cause then I'll get angry and denounce 'heathens' and such  . So I won't except this. We, Catholics, don't worship anything other than God. We 'pray' to 'Saints' and the Virgin Mary to intercede on our behalf. 'To Pray for Us'....That's not worship. That's a plea. Whew!...I didn't call anyone names. And that's it for me. 


P.S. HE IS ALIVE!....

[Pimander]

P.S. HE IS ALIVE!....

You guys actually genuinely believe that God is a ZOMBIE?   You worship a ZOMBIE?  Now that's stretching my credulity and religion a bit too far.  Weirdos- the lot of you.. 

I imagine you would think I was strange if I suggested that worshipping the undead is kind of..... Satanic?

[Sgt.Rocknroll]

Thank you Pim. I love you too! 

[Pimander]

Thank you Pim. I love you too! 

I'm teasing Sarge.  Catholics are no weirder than the rest of us loonies.  The zombie thing is very odd though lol

The Roman Church has been historically linked to Satanism or the creator of the physical universe by the gnostic tradition.  The Cathars paid for it in the form of the genocidal Albigensian Crusades.

The Albigensian Crusade or Cathar Crusade (1209–1229) was a 20-year military campaign initiated by Pope Innocent III to eliminate Catharism in Languedoc, in the south of France. The Crusade was prosecuted primarily by the French crown and promptly took on a political flavour, resulting in not only a significant reduction in the number of practicing Cathars but also a realignment of Occitania, bringing it into the sphere of the French crown and diminishing the distinct regional culture and high level of Aragonese influence. The Cathars were a medieval Christian sect with a neo-manichaean philosophy. It originated from a reform movement within the Bogomil churches of Dalmatia and Bulgaria calling for a return to the Christian message of perfection, poverty and preaching. They became known as the Albigensians as it gained many adherents in the city of Albi and surrounding area in the twelfth and thirteenth century.[1]

When Innocent III's diplomatic attempts to roll back Catharism[2] met with little success and after the murder of the papal legate, Pierre de Castelnau, Innocent III declared a crusade against Languedoc, offering the lands of the Cathar heretics to any French nobleman willing to take up arms. The violence led to France's acquisition of lands with closer linguistic, cultural, and political ties to Catalonia (see Occitan). The pope declared that all Albigenses "should be imprisoned and their property confiscated".[3]

The Albigensian Crusade also had a role in the creation and institutionalization of both the Dominican Order and the Medieval Inquisition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade

In parts of the Languedoc the male population was practically exterminated.  I'm sure Jesus would not have approved to be fair.

Sorry for teasing, but do you really think God is a Zombie?

[Sgt.Rocknroll]

Too much 'Walking Dead' for you.

[1Worldwatcher]

The one question that always comes to mind when discussing the Shroud is "How do you know this is an image of the famed Jesus?" I mean, any one got an exact depiction of him? Could be a Wheat farmer caught sleeping with the Kings concubine.

I don't and have not ever trusted radio carbon dating as a "TRUE" form of definitive aging detection. Too many variables not taken into consideration, not too mention the pollutants that do create all kinds of eye brow lifting when trying to authenticate such a delicate topic such as religion or the proof of so and so.

Spectrometry can give readings that will both confirm and denounce with such materials, the research with in the paintings and such is basically familiarities with in brush strokes and techniques, this I know for sure. It also may pull out covered original rendering artifacts under the pigments, but it is not an "Aging Detection" as you may think, it is too postulate similarities of artists known previous works and compare these anomalies such as brush strokes to authenticate, nothing to do with aging process.

1WW

[rdunk]

Pimander said, "Sorry for teasing, but do you really think God is a Zombie"?

...

Not only no, but hell no! (no pun intended) 

But, no problem Pi. We all understand your having a question like that, because you regard God as a fictional character, just as a zombie is nothing more than a fictional character. However, the way you promote the zombie, maybe you really think they are real??

But, according to the scriptures, the God of this universe is a spirit, as is his son Jesus, except for the time he became flesh in the form of man. Jesus was crucified, buried, and raised three days later by the power of God. And actually, all of Christianity is celebrating that happening this week and this weekend.

Nope, Jesus was not raised as a fictional zombie character, but rather the Son of God was raised by God from the dead, to sit at his right hand, until comes the time for his return, for his bride the Church.
 

[Pimander]

because you regard God as a fictional character,

I'm not an atheist.  Atheism is a faith as much as Theism in my opinion.

just as a zombie is nothing more than a fictional character. However, the way you promote the zombie, maybe you really think they are real??

I think the belief in a resurrected body is part of Christianity.  Perhaps I'm wrong?  A zombie is an animated corpse.

Nope, Jesus was not raised as a fictional zombie character,

If Jesus had a soul then we all do.  He was a Man.  Possibly a remarkable one, but a man nonetheless.  The mythical Christ was not a man.  Obviously we will differ here.

but rather the Son of God was raised by God from the dead, to sit at his right hand, until comes the time for his return, for his bride the Church.

He's sitting beside himself waiting to Marry an institution?

[rdunk]

He's sitting beside himself waiting to Marry an institution?

God is a triune God head, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. According to the scriptures, Jesus is waiting upon the Father to tell him when it is time................... .

Actually, this is in a way metaphorically similar to the engagement arrangements for Jewish couples of the period, and is obviously the reason for Jesus' use of its methodology. Supposedly, during that time, when Jewish couples became engaged/betrothed, the groom to be would return to "the father's house" to make all things ready for them. However, it was the father who would decide when the groom's make-ready-work was done, and that it was time for the groom to return for the bride.

So, in this scenario, the Church is to be the bride, Jesus is the to be the groom", and we all are waiting on the Father to tell Jesus when all things are ready.  Matthew 36 (Bible) is just one of the places where Jesus discusses that end time, and in verse 36 mentions "concerning that date and hour no one hath known.......except my Father only".

I believe that Jesus' use of this bride/groom relationship conveys the deepest possible picture to us, of his everlasting love for us, those who accepted him as Savior and Lord.

So Pimander, relative to your "waiting" comment, and for anyone intellectually interested, here is a link to "Jewish Marriage Customs" that some might find interesting. It does better detail the associated event progress of the Jewish marriage.

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/jewish_marriage_customs.htm

[zorgon]

You guys actually genuinely believe that God is a ZOMBIE?   You worship a ZOMBIE?  Now that's stretching my credulity and religion a bit too far.  Weirdos- the lot of you.. 

what ZOMBIE? What is it with all this love of Zombies anyway?

It's really very simple.  Jesus was revived by the crew of his spacecraft and came back to say farewell to a few friends. Then he got on board, (maybe beamed up in a flash of light ) and flew back home. If his craft was merely a normal spacecraft flying around the speed of light (to keep within Einstein's rules ) he would fly out spend a few months back at home and then return for a 'second coming'  Considering the relativist laws, he woul;d only have ages a few months while life on Earth has advanced several thousnad years  

See? Simple...  no gods needed  no  zombies needed, just a normal light speed capable craft ( And we see those flying around all the time right?

Now when I was studying mythology/religion... I heard that Jesus was supposed to return in 2000 years (Can someone point me to that reference? Thanks)

Seems he is over due 



Now if on the other hand he used the Stargate as I and others believe... then time wouldn't be an issue

[zorgon]

...but rather the Son of God was raised by God from the dead, to sit at his right hand,

Nice story But the medical staff on the Starship Enterprise can also raise people from the dead. So raising someone from the dead is not a feat that requires godhood.

In fact modern paramedics have done the same and do it daily.  We breath life into those that drown, we restart a heart with a zap of electricity. Our hospitals are full of people who have died and been brought back by MAN not god  (even though some stupid mortals give god the credit instead of the doctor)

Some people even flatline on purpose, to be brought back to life for the experience.

So sorry, bringing back someone who supposedly died back then (BTW who did the determination he was actually dead?) is not a big feat needing a god.

It is fine to have a belief... we all have one of some sort. but in truth, your God is currently a fictional character that only exists in your beliefs.  Faith is fine... but it is not proof. If it works for you then great, but it is still a fiction until proven.

Now Captain Kirk can call up to Scotty and say "Behold... let there be a cow!!!" and Scotty could make a cow materialize in seconds in a flash of light.  If that happened on a planet that didn't have cows. it would surely be a MIRACLE, especially in the minds of simple peasants and farmers

'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Sir A C Clarke 

Magic... or Godhood

Hallowed are the ORI!!! 

until comes the time for his return, for his bride the Church.

Which Church? There are hundreds today all claiming the same god in three major religions

[The Matrix Traveller]

Jesus is waiting upon the Father to tell him when it is time...................

What a strange statement to make...

Are you Implying, to us, the Father is now NOT talking to The Son ? ? ?

Or has been waiting 2,000 years for a reply ? ? ?

Something here in what you have written, is definitely NOT Right....  LOL.

Guess it is because of the Lies, Propagated by "Roman Doctrine".

(Which All the Human churches also propagate according to their own beliefs, based on the "Roman bible"
and NOT "The BOOK of LIFE")

If you read your bible, the "1st Resurrection", was reported at the time human "Primates" attempted
in vain to Murder LIFE, which is Impossible anyway.

Re. the "1st Resurrection"...

According to the bible (NOT me)


In "The Gospel According to Mark" (NOT the carpenter) Ch. 27 verse 51 to 53.  Quote;

52. And the graves were opened;
and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53. And came out of the graves after his resurrection,
and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

So if you are waiting for the "1st Resurrection" I guess you may have missed the Bus !


In your bible the LIFE, said through the "Carpenter", Quote;

"Destroy this Temple in 3 Days I shall Raise it up again."

If the "Temple" He referred to was the "Carpenter", then WHO was The "I" referring to ?

Certainly NOT the "Carpenter" as you claim he was buried and on the 3rd day was raised !

But the One who kick started the program of the Carpenter was LIFE !


As was said, through the "Carpenter"...

"I Am The WAY The Truth and The LIFE " !

The Carpenter did NOT Say "I am the Way The Truth and The Carpenter, Jesus, now did He ?   LOL.



The DEAD can NOT give LIFE !

Only LIFE gives LIFE !


But it is typical of church goers, to make the False Claim that Flesh is Somehow LIFE....

Strange "Primates" Indeed....  LOL.

Flesh and LIFE are 2 Completely different things...   LOL.


From an Ancient Christian writing, and NOT from those who propagate "Roman Doctrine",
(Includes All "human churches" who falsely claim to be the "Bride")

Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away,
and the one above it will pass away.

The dead are not alive,
and the living will not die.

In the days when you consumed what is dead,

you made it what is alive.

To be falsely claimed by human "Primates" !

When you come to dwell in THE LIGHT, what will you do?

On the day when you were one
you became two.

But when you become two,
what will you do?"