One thing no one can disprove...

[Sgt.Rocknroll]

A plane or boat with a running propeller engine will not move in the vacuum of space and I think for the same reasons neither will a rocket in the same environment.

Really? A rocket won't work in the vacuum of space?

[ArMaP]

A question: if rockets don't work in a vacuum, shouldn't they get slower and slower while getting higher and higher in the atmosphere, as the atmosphere gets thinner and thinner?

[spacemaverick]

You know...I never thought of that....however if you have a chamber closed at one end and you have a force coming out of that chamber then basically the force is against the closed portion of the chamber...right?  The pressure has to go somewhere and from that force you have movement.

[The Matrix Traveller]

Does that mean that a rocket with oxygen and hydrogen doesn't work in a vacuum?

Correct !

Thermal Converters which a Rocket Engine is requires ...

1.    Fuel
2.    An Oxidiser
3.    An Inert gas to heat, (the expansion Component)

It is the Expanding Inert Gas which expands due to being heated by the heat source (Chemical reaction)
Which acts on the Inner Walls of Exhaust Cone pushing the rocket away from the material (Gas) being expelled
out its rear.

IF ONLY Oxygen and Hydrogen is used in a Internal Combustion engine without the Nitrogen (present in the air)
It will NOT Work !


So can a Rocket engine operate in Space ?

YES

(IF the 3 Components are used, or just One expanding gas, not involving heat)

But hell ... its a very, very, very, inefficient system probably in the area of Steam and probably about 2.5% efficient !

So is it realistic ?

Hell NO.

A total waste of Time and tax payers $$$$'s.

Hardly suitable to attempt going to the moon.... let alone crossing Galaxies in Minutes.  LOL.


I think you will find Z is more on track, and perhaps the human species is in some form of very limited
activity involving others, other than the NASA.


And there is other involvement, which has nothing at all to do with Gov. or any other agencies on Earth,
involving something unimaginable to most in the Earth Program.   

[The Matrix Traveller]

Perhaps a better analogy is a propeller engine on an airplane or boat in water. The plane/boat moving when the propellers are spinning is an indirect reaction and only happens when the direct reaction takes place: air/water molecules encountering resistance when pushed against other air/water molecules of sufficient density.

Propellers are just one form of 'Pump' !

[The Matrix Traveller]

Monkey 'Tech.' is like ....

[ArMaP]

IF ONLY Oxygen and Hydrogen is used in a Internal Combustion engine without the Nitrogen (present in the air)
It will NOT Work !

What if the rocket is inside water, what happens?

[The Matrix Traveller]

What if the rocket is inside water, what happens?

Your guess is as good as mine ....   

[ArMaP]

Your guess is as good as mine ....   

Does that mean that all your previous talk was also a guess?

[The Matrix Traveller]

Does that mean that all your previous talk was also a guess?

Why do you read things into comments which are NOT there ?

Just askin. 

It appears you tend to overcomplicate/over engineer things.

IF I was guessing.... I would have said so ...  (re. my previous statements and. 'Thermal Converters')

[ArMaP]

Why do you read things into comments which are NOT there ?

I don't, that's why I ask.

IF I was guessing.... I would have said so ...  (re. my previous statements and. 'Thermal Converters')

I asked because I find it a little strange that you would know that and not know what would happen inside water, because, to me, it looks like if you know the theory aren't you supposed to know how that would apply in a slightly different situation?

The only thing I know about thermal converters and things like that is that I know nothing of the theories behind them.

[The Matrix Traveller]

I might know a little wee bit about 'Thermal Converters'.

My business involved Professional engine design, along with the Development and Manufacture
of Automotive Computer Systems during the 1980's and 90's. One of the early Pioneers. 

Also had acquaintances, involved with model jet and rocket engines, who sort advice from me on odd occasions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_propellant

Rocket propellant is a material used by a rocket as, or to produce in a chemical reaction,
the reaction mass (propulsive mass) that is ejected, typically with very high speed, from a rocket engine
to produce thrust, and thus provide spacecraft propulsion.

A chemical rocket propellants undergo exothermic chemical reactions to produce hot gas.

There may be a single propellant, or multiple propellants; in the latter case one can distinguish fuel
and oxidizer.

The gases produced expand and push on a nozzle, which accelerates them until they rush out of the back
of the rocket at extremely high speed. For smaller attitude control thrusters, a compressed gas escapes
the spacecraft through a propelling nozzle.

Another solid fuel used is C6H6N6(NO2)6 (Note the content of Nitrogen !)

Nitrogen does NOT Oxidise easily !

Nitrogen oxides refers specifically to NOx (NO and NO2).

Nitrogen dioxide is the chemical compound with the formula NO2.
It is one of several nitrogen oxides. NO2 is an intermediate in the industrial synthesis of nitric acid,
millions of tons of which are produced each year.
This reddish-brown toxic gas has a characteristic sharp, biting odor and is a prominent air pollutant. Nitrogen dioxide is a paramagnetic, bent molecule with C2v point group symmetry.

Oxygen and nitrogen do not react at ambient temperatures. But at high temperatures,
they undergo an endothermic reaction producing various oxides of nitrogen.
Such temperatures arise inside an internal combustion engine or a power station boiler,
during the combustion of a mixture of air and fuel, and naturally in a lightning flash.

Nitrogen Oxide in the exhaust from an internal combustion engine is detected in Parts/Billion
as it is NOT easy to oxidise Nitrogen !

It is the Nitrogen in a Thermal converter such as a Jet Engine or Automotive internal combustion Engine
that does the expansion.

If only Oxygen and Hydrogen is used without any other gasses an Implosion takes place instead of Expansion.   

No guess work here .... I have give lectures on Internal Combustion Engines ('Thermal Converters') to those
in the Automotive Industry including Engine designers.   



http://www.webqc.org/molecular-weight-of-C6H6N6(NO2)6.html

Formula in Hill system is C6H6N12O12
Elemental composition of C6H6N6(NO2)6:

C    Carbon  16.4461 %

H    Hydrogen  1.3802 %

N    Nitrogen  38.3583 %

O   Oxygen  43.8155 %

[ArMaP]

I might know a little wee bit about 'Thermal Converters'.

I know, but in this case I'm only interested in rocket engines.

I forgot to ask, what happens when a rocket reaches high altitudes, with much less nitrogen (or whatever), shouldn't the rocket accelerate less and less?

[zorgon]

If Rockets do not work in space...

...how do they get back down from orbit?


If rockets do not work in space...

...then there are NO ANOMALIES in the Moon and Mars photos...

...because they could not have taken those photos on the Moon or Mars

[The Matrix Traveller]

I know, but in this case I'm only interested in rocket engines.

I forgot to ask, what happens when a rocket reaches high altitudes, with much less nitrogen (or whatever), shouldn't the rocket accelerate less and less?

A Rocket engine is a 'Thermal Converter' !   

The Nitrogen is IN the FUEL !   

Example in Solid Fuel ......    C6H6N6(NO2)6