https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Pjs7uoOkag
Have a look at this guy, kids. Politically speaking, he's what I used to be. An adherent of the idealistic, but still sane Left. Someone who believes that up until around the late 70s, before it went insane, feminism actually did have a positive and legitimate purpose. Someone who realises that it might not be the best thing if humanity becomes the sole remaining form of life on this planet, due to what we've done to it in the name of money.
This is the genuine article; the Bill and Ted demographic. The people who listen to John Lennon or Roger Waters with tears in their eyes. The people from whom the Left derived their false right to claim the moral high ground in the first place. The people who the Left's leaders want as their image; who they want conservatives and other non-Leftists to think they are like. The proverbial poster children.
These people are leaving the fold. They're apparently tired of the social justice movement and its' vicious, authoritarian insanity.
For the first time in a long time, I'm experiencing a vague sense of genuine hope in response to this.
I only listened (I didn't want to watch to avoid seeing the guy's face, as I wasn't interested in having my thoughts manipulated by the expressions he could make) to the first 60 seconds, when I reached the conclusion that this is American-oriented and, as such, means nothing to me.
The American political party leaders and their minions for the most part self-absorbent thinking they are each correct in their thoughts of what the American people want. Most of them have been in their government jobs (elected types) and have become rich off of bribe money from corporations for helping along these very corporations using their political influence. America has gotten to the point that it is led by politicians that have their own agendas, fill their pockets and have lost touch with the American people. Since the election in 2016, the Democratic party has become the Obstructionist party. A number of Republicans have been Republicans in name only and have sided with them. A nation divided against itself will not stand for very long. Democracy is essentially mob rule and a bad form of government. A Republic, (what we started out as) is governed by the rule of law and each branch of government is a check and balance on the other branches.
Quote from: spacemaverick on July 01, 2018, 09:23:35 PM
Democracy is essentially mob rule and a bad form of government. A Republic, (what we started out as) is governed by the rule of law and each branch of government is a check and balance on the other branches.
Americans... ::)
The United States is a republic
and a democracy, a representative democracy.
There is a difference. I'm not getting into this discussion anymore. I'm out. In fact, you can take me out of Pegasus altogether. I'm done. Americans and an eyeroll. Who died and left you an authority. I'm gone.
Quote from: ArMaP on July 02, 2018, 12:03:09 AM
Americans... ::)
The United States is a republic and a democracy, a representative democracy.
It doesn't matter and is irrelevant to the OP, for it doesn't have a damn thing to do with what type of government we have...
it is a statement about members of the democrat party leaving because they see just how twisted their party in general has become and is not a good place to be politically if they are truly wanting to espouse their ideals...
Quote from: spacemaverick on July 02, 2018, 02:39:12 AM
Who died and left you an authority. I'm gone.
In my experience, spacemaverick, atheists just do that, for the most part. Some people find Armap's pedantry annoying at times, I know; but I've learned to let it wash over me. Atheists online used to make me very angry, but then I realised that I only really need to care about their consensus opinion, if it is important to me to associate with them. While I don't go out of my way to alienate them, I've stopped caring about whether or not they agree with what I am saying; and I've also stopped caring about their attempt to portray themselves as centralised scientific authorities, a la Wikipedia.
If an atheist is angry with you in an argument, generally speaking their tactic of last resort will be to accuse you of being unscientific or irrational, in the hope that said argument will shame you back into compliance with their opinion, because they like viewing themselves as the arbiters of what being rational or scientific means. Given that I've known atheists from whom I took the accusation of irrationality as a genuine compliment, that trick does not work with me any more.
None of this is intended as a personal attack against Armap, and I get the feeling that he probably won't interpret it as one anyway. This is merely an explanation of how I have learned to cope with dealing with atheists as a group, despite the fact that I am not one myself.
I am, however, somewhat ashamed to admit that I no longer engage in overt forms of religious practice, because of the degree to which I have become afraid of being caught in the act by atheists, and the possible derision or even physical persecution that may result. If I was able to live in complete seclusion with a sealed room that was not visible from the outside, then I might start offering to Kali again; but I am not going to do it while living with my mother or anyone else.
I have had to accept the fact that, during my current lifetime, I am not living in a society which is consistent with my preferences or identity in virtually any way; and the existence of an atheistic majority, is one of the most fundamental elements of that. I can only assume that at some time in the past, reincarnationally speaking, I was someone who behaved in a similar manner towards others, and that what I am currently experiencing is karmic. I have endeavoured to accept that psychologically, and to endure it as stoically as possible. The one moral requirement of a prisoner, is the maintenance of dignity.
@spacemaverick , don't go buddy, I enjoy reading your comments and thoughts on the forum as much as any others.
ArMaP - you mentioned early on the thread
"SNIP" I only listened (I didn't want to watch to avoid seeing the guy's face, as I wasn't interested in having my thoughts manipulated by the expressions he could make) to the first 60 seconds, when I reached the conclusion that this is American-oriented and, as such, means nothing to me."SNIP"
Why then, did you bounce back in ?? it looks like, and I have said this before that you were looking to create a hook to catch an emotive response from others.
I do enjoy reading the many comments and arguments on this forum, many of your points do make me have a think about topics and angles, but it really does come across as being pedantic for the sake of being pedantic -
Moving on, can someone on the forum explain to a non-US citizen the difference between the Republican and Democrats political ideologies?.. PM me if it is a detailed response, I don't want to hijack the thread -
@petrus4, I don't know how I would classify my religious belief system, I do know I don't believe the BS that the Catholic and Church of England spout - I have more interest in the Eastern Philosophies of Buddhism, Taoism, and Hinduism, and I have a internal sense of the spiritual nature of man, and the world in general.
I have been following the QAnon phenomenon over the last 4 months and I believe that the Q is a team of people not one person, who is creating a narrative for the alternative media and building up to a "messianic act" which I think will be designed to decapitate all of PotUS political adversary's -
There is so much smoke and mirrors about the Uranium deal, Russian interference in the elections, Hilary Server-gate, The Clinton Foundation Fraud, Benghazi and Libya, that I cant work out which politicians over there are the "good guys" and the "bad guys" -
I watched this Oversight of the Judiciary last week and was left with more questions than answers - :o :-\ ???
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2muF17VuSs
Laterzz' :)
Fansongecho
Quote from: spacemaverick on July 02, 2018, 02:39:12 AM
Americans and an eyeroll. Who died and left you an authority.
I don't need to be an authority to have an opinion.
Quote from: The Seeker on July 02, 2018, 02:58:20 AM
It doesn't matter and is irrelevant to the OP, for it doesn't have a damn thing to do with what type of government we have...
I wasn't answering the OP on that post.
Quote from: fansongecho on July 02, 2018, 01:06:11 PM
Why then, did you bounce back in ??
Because I read all posts.
Quoteit looks like, and I have said this before that you were looking to create a hook to catch an emotive response from others.
I only do that to trolls, and that wasn't the case.
QuoteI do enjoy reading the many comments and arguments on this forum, many of your points do make me have a think about topics and angles, but it really does come across as being pedantic for the sake of being pedantic -
When I see something wrong I try to correct it, just that.
Quote from: petrus4 on July 02, 2018, 08:22:48 AM
None of this is intended as a personal attack against Armap, and I get the feeling that he probably won't interpret it as one anyway.
I did not. :)
Quote from: fansongecho on July 02, 2018, 01:06:11 PM
Moving on, can someone on the forum explain to a non-US citizen the difference between the Republican and Democrats political ideologies?..
The main difference used to be that the Democrats were associated with the working poor, while the Republicans were the party of the rich. These days it's a bit more complicated; primarily because the end of the Soviet Union tricked a lot of people into believing that Communism had been permanently beaten and discredited, and was not coming back. Communism did not die, however; it has instead rebranded itself. Partly with the United Nations and the type of utopian internationalism which that organisation promotes, and partly under the more benign label of "Democratic Socialism."
The Democrats still try and claim to be the Leftist party; but in reality, Hillary and Barry were just as much in favour of neoliberalism and pro-Zionist war profiteering as anyone in the Republican Party.
The Republican party are Right wing, or conservative and Capitalist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK_XWH7Ryd4
Among other things, this primarily means tax cuts for the rich, and economic, legal, and social empowerment of the police and military. Republican Presidents are almost always tyrants, and their time in office is usually characterised by an increase in foreign war and domestic authoritarianism.
(https://www.richardcassaro.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/bvfrtgy.jpg)
To use the Egyptian symbolism, the Democrats at least claim to correspond with the crook, (Mercy, in Qabbalistic terms) while the Republicans are associated with the flail. (Severity) Positive and negative reinforcement, respectively. The Democrats are more inclined to use diplomacy and pretty rhetoric to persuade people that what they want is simply the right thing to do, whereas the Republicans are more about punishment.
QuoteThere is so much smoke and mirrors about the Uranium deal, Russian interference in the elections, Hilary Server-gate, The Clinton Foundation Fraud, Benghazi and Libya, that I cant work out which politicians over there are the "good guys" and the "bad guys"
There are no heroes anywhere in current Western politics. There are only varying levels of psychopathy. I wanted Trump to win the last election partly because I thought the Millennial Left had gained too much power under Barry and they needed to be countered, and because, while I have no doubts about Trump being a paternalistic fascist who is much closer to a Godfather than a President, I still consider him to be less malevolent and more sane than Hillary; even if, again, the difference is only one of degree.
Again, I have no false illusions about Trump. He is a barbaric, Hobbesian oligarch who revels in his power. Yet as undesirable as he might be, I can not even begin to imagine the amount of damage Hillary would have caused if the outcome had been different. That would have been a departure into pure insanity.
As long as the antifa can be held at bay, the Republic stands a better chance of even partly surviving under Trump, than it ever would have under Hillary.
Space Mav...
Hope you dont mean what you say.... and its was just a negative reaction at the time... which we can all experience at times...
I dont think there is need to leave on one such issue, disagreemnt or misunderstanding or misjudged communication between others at times..... and I am sure ArMaP and other members would not want that !
Generally I think overall we treat each other with respect even if we have disagreements at times...and I would have thought that most would think like that...
Quote from: astr0144 on July 02, 2018, 09:11:00 PM
Space Mav...
Hope you dont mean what you say.... and its was just a negative reaction at the time... which we can all experience at times...
I dont think there is need to leave on one such issue, disagreemnt or misunderstanding or misjudged communication between others at times..... and I am sure ArMaP and other members would not want that !
Generally I think overall we treat each other with respect even if we have disagreements at times...and I would have thought that most would think like that...
I am still considering. I have watched US military attacked verbally, I have watched police attacked verbally and someone who does not live here nor had the classes to know the difference between a Republic and a Democracy. I am an American, former Army and Air Force and retired from law enforcement. Unfortunately, certain people give opinions that piss me off. This person did not attack but the opinions I have no interest in listening too. It is better in my opinion to leave. I love this forum except for...
I'm staying.
I recall reading some past posts / points in ref to your Military and Law Enf background...
I some of us think we may know or have some idea about the two main US Rep/ Dem parties but maybe not in great detail... so it maybe hard for some of us to fully undertand.. and then it maybe also how each of us may interpret the facts...where opinions may differ.
I do know there has been a LOT said in past posts about opinions on the US government that does refer to the main two parties and many a thing to do with the Military and Law Enforcement..
Much was discussed at one stage in relation to a lot that Alex Jones used to talk about...in which my views have altered and changed on some things on and off thru out time... but in somethings .... As disturbing as they maybe to some.. I may well consider as possible or agree with some of his disturbing opinions...
but thats still down to opinion and if one believes it..
and that can be different to having actually experienced it in ones life when you work in that profession or live in the country and at what age we maybe at varied times as to how we consider it..
But if you enjoy a lot of the other parts of the forum.. why leave... just choose what topic that you decide to follow..if you decide you do not wish to have further say on the topic that you referred to..
Somethings.. as we go thru life .. we can obtain numerious facts and opinions on... and dpending how far we may research into somethings the deeper we may go into it.. sometimes we discover things that maybe normally have never have questioned or considered...
and it may then depend on what we may accept as being possble or maybe have some truths...and if we may agree or disagree with it...
Like for eg... Many believe that the Military and Law Enforcement work best for the public / country..
but some people believe that certain types of Goverment leaders may have power over them to do things that others may think are not in the best interests to the Country or public..
and if you have worked in the Military / Law Enforcement........ either they may not consider such a thing... or maybe you are aware and have such issues of concern... in which opinions may greatly vary... for even those working in those jobs.
BUT other NON Military / Law Enforcement people may totally have differing views again....
some who totally have no other eduation or further research to make make them consider alternatives.. other than one opinion that they may have...
and others who have reseearched many different aspects and views on something and come to their own conclusions..
which again we will have some different views now how eduacated or clever a persons maybe.. at all various levels..
for what ever reason....at my present situation.... I just see life like this...
never any easy answers or solutions...just often complexities of trying to determine certain things...that can alter if certain facts / information change or evolve..
Every one is at differeing levels of either knowledge, experience , understanding or how much time and reasearch effort etc that one may have studied certain topics...
My thoughts are that we can only offer our opiinions of our our own views, and TRY to determine an outcome.. and also to try and consider views of others.... and to also try to consider if they may have any valid reason in their differing opinions...
and if one has certain information or facts that may question others views / opinions and one has the time and is willing to oppose those points with relevant facts... then I think thats all that one can do..
which is what the forum is partially about if one needs to question or oppose something..
QuoteI'm staying.
Quote
I am still considering. I have watched US military attacked verbally, I have watched police attacked verbally and someone who does not live here nor had the classes to know the difference between a Republic and a Democracy. I am an American, former Army and Air Force and retired from law enforcement. Unfortunately, certain people give opinions that piss me off. This person did not attack but the opinions I have no interest in listening too. It is better in my opinion to leave. I love this forum except for...
Thanks, Astro..!! Having been in those backgrounds, we can get really defensive sometimes. People not in those areas tend to have opinions reflective of the mainstream and lots of times, it is wrong.
@spacemaverick - great, glad to see :)
@petrus4 - thank you very much for the reply. and explanation, that cleared up a LOT buddy (I need to look at the image and details around it)
@ArMap, I don't mind people trying to correct incorrect information (if that is where they are coming from) but why don't you try being a little more diplomatic about it ? Say whuut ?
Cheers'
Fans' :)
Its often very difficult to consider an other persons views and sometimes maybe impossible.
One often has to have experienced another persons background to try to understand.
In ref to something like what Alex Jones may discuss if he is making ref to certain Government departments of person in some sort of power that may relate to the Miliary or Law Enforcement....
I could really understand that many Military and Police may be appalled at what he may say..
but sometimes they consider what he says and later may agree that what he maybe saying maybe well possible..
thats based on my own views on having studied some of his material over some years that I have seen on and off at times... that a lot a the general public would never even know about or consider..
many a time as they had not had time (or any desire or reason ) to even study or consider such things..
I can well imagine .. that some parts in the Military and Law Enforcement is VERY highly stressful and most people could not deal with it..
but what is disturbing is if they do end up being also misled for the worst if say for eg... som corrupt govt official has them doing things that are not in anyones best interest..
and more so if one works in that area and is conscious or aware of it...and would highly prefer NOT to have to go along with it.... but you have to do so to remain in the job...
Quote from: spacemaverick on July 02, 2018, 10:49:48 PM
Thanks, Astro..!! Having been in those backgrounds, we can get really defensive sometimes. People not in those areas tend to have opinions reflective of the mainstream and lots of times, it is wrong.
Quote from: fansongecho on July 02, 2018, 11:03:59 PM
@ArMap, I don't mind people trying to correct incorrect information (if that is where they are coming from) but why don't you try being a little more diplomatic about it ? Say whuut ?
I always try to say things in the most diplomatic manner I can at the time, but, like any other person, I have good and bad moments, so it's natural that sometimes I'm not diplomatic in the way I say/write things.
And yes, I will always try to point when incorrect information is presented, as I see information and knowledge as one of the most important tools people have to keep them from being used by those with more power.
In this case, I have seen many time people from the US saying that democracy is "mob rule" and there's the idea that in a democracy there are no limits to the power the majority have over the minority. That may be the case in a theoretical absolute direct democracy, something that does not exist in any country, the closest there is Switzerland, where the people are constantly being called to vote on referendums regarding policy changes.
"Democracy" means "rule of the people", opposite to an "aristocracy" (rule of an elite) or "oligarchy" (rule of a small group).
In the United States, as far as I understand it, the political power is divided between the Congress (the legislative power) and the President (the executive power).
Members of Congress are elected directly by popular vote (although I found out only today that senators are only elected directly since 1913). This is a typical case of representative democracy, a type of democracy (the most common) in which the people elects representatives that are going to be responsible for keeping and creating the laws (including amendments to the constitution) of the country.
The president is elected by indirect vote, as the people vote in the electors that are going to be part of the body that will then elect the president. This is also representative democracy, as the people elect those that are going to decide who becomes president.
PS: my problem with the common representation of democracy in the US is that it gives the wrong idea of what democracy is, even hinting at it being a bad form or government. It's not perfect, but it's not "mob rule", and has been used in most western countries for around 200 years, and has never resulted in "mob rule".
PPS: sorry if the fact that I lived under a real fascist regime, without democracy (we had elections, but they were rigged and only two political parties, the one in power and a small opposition party, were allowed), where the political police could arrest people like my father for suspicion of possessing a forbidden book, makes me have a big dislike of attacks against democracy.
PPPS: if I'm wrong please point me to facts that prove it, I like to learn.
Quote from: spacemaverick on July 02, 2018, 10:27:01 PM
I'm staying.
I'm glad you stay.
Although it may not look like it, I never intended to make people go away (except a couple of trolls), presenting and discussing our ideas and opinions is the best way of spreading information and knowledge, and the more heads we have the closest we get to a global understanding of what surrounds us.
re·pub·lic
rəˈpəblik/Submit
noun
a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch.
A republic is a government in which a restricted group of citizens form a political unit, usually under the auspice of a charter, which directs them to elect representatives who will govern the state. Republics, by their very nature, tend to be free polities, not because they are elected by the citizens of the polity, but because they are bound by charters, which limit the responsibilities and powers of the state. The fact that people vote for representatives has nothing to do with making anything free. The logical consistency and rationality of the charter, as well as the willingness of the people to live by it, is what keeps people free.
A democracy is government by the majority. There is still a restricted group of citizens in a democracy, but this group rules directly and personally runs the state. The group may delegate specific tasks to individuals, such as generalships and governorships, but there is no question that the ruling force in a democracy is not a charter (if there even is a charter), but the vote of the majority. Democracies are free only if the people know what freedom is and are consistent in their application of it. If they don't know this, or more appropriately, if a majority of the people don't know this, then a democracy could be just as tyrannical as the worst dictator (see Socrates' forced suicide by the Athenian democracy.)
As should be plain, there is a giant difference between the two systems of government. One of the main fears at the Constitutional Convention of the United States was that the government they created would be too democratic (causing Alexander Hamilton to suggest a restricted monarchy), because it was quite obvious, then and now, that any majority could vote itself anything it wanted, be it property or executions. That is why it irks me so much when politicians (who have no excuse not knowing what kind of government they serve in) and ignorant people say that this country is a democracy; it does a tremendous disservice to all of the people whose thought went into creating our republic......
http://capitalismmagazine.com/2003/01/republic-democracy-whats-the-difference/
The definition comes from the dictionary. Click the link to see the rest. This same thing was told to me in my civics classes before our schools became corrupted by progressives.
@ArMap - Thanks for clarification on your posts on the subject, and insight into the political machinations of your old regimes - I have been wading thru the US House Judiciary Committee Meetings and it seems that the US members, like our UK Parliamentarians, have real problems aligning on common ground about almost everything https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkOUw7Rg6Rk
The above starts around 1 hour and 13 mins (late) from it's scheduled start but is well worth a watch if you haven't seen it already.
I get that members of Parties from different political wings have their own parties ideologies to support and maintain favour with their party leaders, but what I don't get is, don't most humans have a shared set of common values, like wanting to help and protect the poor/elderly, the disadvantaged, and make the country/planet a better place to live for all? OR are the vast majority of politicians (that serve in a democratic system) really just in it for themselves?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlwVapCxwpw
(This was from last week, the first question posed was by a labour councillor in my old area, the question is valid but the Prime Minister (Conservative or Republican party - I liken the Conservatives to the US Republican Party) flannels the answer )
The leader of the opposition Jeremy Corbin has, in the past been a Republican IRA sympathiser - So he isn't very much liked in the House of Commons, or by voters of Labour our equivalent to the US democrat persuasion)
The Wednesday Prime Ministers Questions is a real farce, and most of my friends do not like the format or the lack of decorum evidenced during the back and forth between the PM and members of the opposition Parties.
I guess it's better than the Russian system (rigged elections) - but it isn't a edifiying spectacle on any level. ::)
Cheers'
Fansongecho
@spacemaverick - thanks for the link/post just now.
Quote from: ArMaP on July 03, 2018, 01:57:43 AM
I always try to say things in the most diplomatic manner I can at the time, but, like any other person, I have good and bad moments, so it's natural that sometimes I'm not diplomatic in the way I say/write things.
As usual, I thought about what I wrote after writing it, and reached the conclusion that the above was a less than honest way of saying I was sorry.
As I like to be honest with myself (I think that's the only way we can become better than we are) I will rephrase the above as it should have been.
I'm sorry for the rude way of my post. Nobody here is responsible for the stress I have been under at work, so nobody should be the target of my bad humour. I'll try not to do it again, but I can't promise it, as this has happened before and I haven't been able to preventing it from happening again, as we can see.
@ArMaP, here is hoping you have a much better time at work m8, I do enjoy your views and inputs, and logic, so please do keep it going, as you may have guessed, I am not into conflict of any type - I love this forum and thousands of topics and members viewpoints and commentary. Have a good one! :) 8)
Quote from: spacemaverick on July 03, 2018, 06:26:38 AM
re·pub·lic
rəˈpəblik/Submit
noun
a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch.
Yes Mav, we have a Federated Republic, since we have the Constitution as our charter 8) and it, along with the states's constitutions, dictate how we the people are directed to govern ourselves...
QuoteThe definition comes from the dictionary. Click the link to see the rest. This same thing was told to me in my civics classes before our schools became corrupted by progressives.
As was I and the majority of our generation 8)
The broken education system leads to dysfunction on multiple levels from the man on the street all the way to the upper levels of government; the removal or should I say abdication of numerous representatives along with the ongoing shift in both the political parties is a move towards improvement 8)
Glad you are sticking around, old friend :P
Quote from: The Seeker on July 03, 2018, 01:21:17 PM
As was I and the majority of our generation 8)
The broken education system leads to dysfunction on multiple levels from the man on the street all the way to the upper levels of government; the removal or should I say abdication of numerous representatives along with the ongoing shift in both the political parties is a move towards improvement 8)
The Left were given a lot of power under Barry, and they badly abused it. I consider a lot of conservative thinking to be repugnant, but the likes of Bill Maher and Michael Moore need some kind of political counterweight to them. If they don't have it, then they get above themselves and start being very nasty towards anyone who disagrees with them about anything.
I truthfully would also like to see identity politics stopped once and for all, because I haven't seen it cause anything other than damage and conflict. I genuinely do believe that feminism was a necessary and positive thing once, but it isn't any more.
Quote from: spacemaverick on July 03, 2018, 06:26:38 AM
The fact that people vote for representatives has nothing to do with making anything free.
It's that underlined part that makes it a democracy, specifically a representative democracy, as the representatives are elected by the people.
QuoteThat would have been a departure into pure insanity.
Nah, it would have been the same old "Destroy the Republic" shit. Treason, graft, murder, pedophilia.
https://qanon.pub/
The people vote for representatives, but not all of the representatives do the job they were hired for.