A very important event

[spacemaverick]

I'm staying.

[astr0144]

I recall reading some past posts / points in ref to your Military and Law Enf background...

I some of us think we may know or have some idea about the two main US Rep/ Dem parties but maybe not in great detail... so it maybe hard for some of us to fully undertand.. and then it maybe also how each of us may interpret the facts...where opinions may differ.

I do know there has been a LOT said in past posts about opinions on the US government that does refer to the main two parties and many a thing to do with the Military and Law Enforcement..

Much was discussed at one stage in relation to a lot that Alex Jones used to talk about...in which my views have altered and changed on some things on and off thru out time... but in somethings .... As disturbing as they maybe to some.. I may well  consider as possible  or agree with some of his disturbing opinions...

but thats still down to opinion and if one believes it..

and that can be different to having actually experienced it in ones life when you work in that profession or live in the country and at what age we maybe at varied times as to how we consider it..


But if you enjoy a lot of the other parts of the forum..  why leave...  just choose what topic that you decide to follow..if you decide you do not wish to have further say on the topic that you referred to..

Somethings.. as we go thru life .. we can obtain numerious facts and opinions on... and dpending how far we may research into somethings the deeper we may go into it.. sometimes we discover things that maybe normally have never have questioned or considered...

and it may then depend on what we may accept as being possble  or maybe have some truths...and if we may agree or disagree with it...

Like for eg... Many believe that the Military and Law Enforcement work best for the public / country..

but some people believe that certain types of Goverment leaders may have power over them to do things that others may think are not in the best interests to the Country or public..


and if you have worked in the Military / Law Enforcement........ either they may not consider such a thing... or maybe you are aware and have such issues of concern... in which opinions may greatly vary... for even those working in those jobs.

BUT other NON Military / Law Enforcement people may totally have differing views again....

some who totally have no other eduation or further research to make make them consider alternatives.. other than one opinion that they may have...

and others who have reseearched many different aspects and views on something and come to their own conclusions..

which again we will have some different views now how eduacated or clever a persons maybe.. at all various levels..

for what ever reason....at my present situation.... I just see life like this...

never any easy answers or solutions...just often complexities of trying to determine certain things...that can alter if certain facts / information change or evolve..

Every one is at differeing levels of either knowledge, experience , understanding or how much time and reasearch effort etc that one may have studied certain topics...

My thoughts are that we can only offer our opiinions of our our own views, and TRY to determine an outcome.. and also to try and consider views of others.... and to also try to consider if they may have any valid reason in their differing opinions...

and if one has certain information or facts that may question others views / opinions and one has the time and  is willing to oppose those points with relevant facts... then I think thats all that one can do..

which is what the forum is partially about if one needs to question or oppose something..

I'm staying.

I am still considering.  I have watched US military attacked verbally, I have watched police attacked verbally and someone who does not live here nor had the classes to know the difference between a Republic and a Democracy.  I am an American, former Army and Air Force and retired from law enforcement.  Unfortunately, certain people give opinions that piss me off.  This person did not attack but the opinions I have no interest in listening too.  It is better in my opinion to leave.  I love this forum except for...

[spacemaverick]

Thanks, Astro..!!  Having been in those backgrounds, we can get really defensive sometimes.  People not in those areas tend to have opinions reflective of the mainstream and lots of times, it is wrong.

[fansongecho]

@spacemaverick - great, glad to see 

@petrus4 - thank you very much for the reply. and explanation, that cleared up a LOT buddy (I need to look at the image and details around it)

@ArMap, I don't mind people trying to correct incorrect information (if that is where they are coming from) but why don't you try being a little more diplomatic about it ? Say whuut ?


Cheers'

Fans' 

[astr0144]

Its often  very difficult to consider an other persons views and sometimes maybe impossible.

One often has to have experienced another persons background to try to understand.

In ref to something like what Alex Jones may discuss if he is making ref to certain Government departments of person in some sort of power that may relate to the Miliary or Law Enforcement....

I could really understand that many Military and Police may be appalled at what he may say..

but sometimes they consider what he says and later may agree that what he maybe saying maybe well possible..

thats based on my own views on having studied some of his material over some years that I have seen on and off at times... that a lot a the general public would never even know about or consider..

many a time as they had not had time  (or any desire or reason ) to even study or consider such things..

I can well imagine .. that some parts in the Military and Law Enforcement is VERY highly stressful and most people could not deal with it..

but what is disturbing is if they do end up being also misled for the worst if say for eg... som corrupt govt official has them doing things that are not in anyones best interest..

and more so if one works in that area and is conscious or aware of it...and would highly prefer NOT to have to go along with it.... but you have to do so to remain in the job...

Thanks, Astro..!!  Having been in those backgrounds, we can get really defensive sometimes.  People not in those areas tend to have opinions reflective of the mainstream and lots of times, it is wrong.

[ArMaP]

@ArMap, I don't mind people trying to correct incorrect information (if that is where they are coming from) but why don't you try being a little more diplomatic about it ? Say whuut ?

I always try to say things in the most diplomatic manner I can at the time, but, like any other person, I have good and bad moments, so it's natural that sometimes I'm not diplomatic in the way I say/write things.

And yes, I will always try to point when incorrect information is presented, as I see information and knowledge as one of the most important tools people have to keep them from being used by those with more power.

In this case, I have seen many time people from the US saying that democracy is "mob rule" and there's the idea that in a democracy there are no limits to the power the majority have over the minority. That may be the case in a theoretical absolute direct democracy, something that does not exist in any country, the closest there is Switzerland, where the people are constantly being called to vote on referendums regarding policy changes.

"Democracy" means "rule of the people", opposite to an "aristocracy" (rule of an elite) or "oligarchy" (rule of a small group).

In the United States, as far as I understand it, the political power is divided between the Congress (the legislative power) and the President (the executive power).

Members of Congress are elected directly by popular vote (although I found out only today that senators are only elected directly since 1913). This is a typical case of representative democracy, a type of democracy (the most common) in which the people elects representatives that are going to be responsible for keeping and creating the laws (including amendments to the constitution) of the country.

The president is elected by indirect vote, as the people vote in the electors that are going to be part of the body that will then elect the president. This is also representative democracy, as the people elect those that are going to decide who becomes president.

PS: my problem with the common representation of democracy in the US is that it gives the wrong idea of what democracy is, even hinting at it being a bad form or government. It's not perfect, but it's not "mob rule", and has been used in most western countries for around 200 years, and has never resulted in "mob rule".

PPS: sorry if the fact that I lived under a real fascist regime, without democracy (we had elections, but they were rigged and only two political parties, the one in power and a small opposition party, were allowed), where the political police could arrest people like my father for suspicion of possessing a forbidden book, makes me have a big dislike of attacks against democracy.

PPPS: if I'm wrong please point me to facts that prove it, I like to learn.

[ArMaP]

I'm staying.

I'm glad you stay.

Although it may not look like it, I never intended to make people go away (except a couple of trolls), presenting and discussing our ideas and opinions is the best way of spreading information and knowledge, and the more heads we have the closest we get to a global understanding of what surrounds us.

[spacemaverick]

re·pub·lic
rəˈpəblik/Submit
noun

a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch.

A republic is a government in which a restricted group of citizens form a political unit, usually under the auspice of a charter, which directs them to elect representatives who will govern the state. Republics, by their very nature, tend to be free polities, not because they are elected by the citizens of the polity, but because they are bound by charters, which limit the responsibilities and powers of the state. The fact that people vote for representatives has nothing to do with making anything free. The logical consistency and rationality of the charter, as well as the willingness of the people to live by it, is what keeps people free.

A democracy is government by the majority. There is still a restricted group of citizens in a democracy, but this group rules directly and personally runs the state. The group may delegate specific tasks to individuals, such as generalships and governorships, but there is no question that the ruling force in a democracy is not a charter (if there even is a charter), but the vote of the majority. Democracies are free only if the people know what freedom is and are consistent in their application of it. If they don't know this, or more appropriately, if a majority of the people don't know this, then a democracy could be just as tyrannical as the worst dictator (see Socrates' forced suicide by the Athenian democracy.)

As should be plain, there is a giant difference between the two systems of government. One of the main fears at the Constitutional Convention of the United States was that the government they created would be too democratic (causing Alexander Hamilton to suggest a restricted monarchy), because it was quite obvious, then and now, that any majority could vote itself anything it wanted, be it property or executions. That is why it irks me so much when politicians (who have no excuse not knowing what kind of government they serve in) and ignorant people say that this country is a democracy; it does a tremendous disservice to all of the people whose thought went into creating our republic......

http://capitalismmagazine.com/2003/01/republic-democracy-whats-the-difference/

The definition comes from the dictionary.  Click the link to see the rest.  This same thing was told to me in my civics classes before our schools became corrupted by progressives.

[fansongecho]

@ArMap - Thanks for clarification on your posts on the subject, and insight into the political machinations of your old regimes - I have been wading thru the US House Judiciary Committee Meetings and it seems that the US members, like our UK Parliamentarians, have real problems aligning on common ground about almost everything

The above starts around 1 hour and 13 mins (late) from it's scheduled start but is well worth a watch if you haven't seen it already.

I get that members of Parties from different political wings have their own parties ideologies to support and maintain favour with their party leaders, but what I don't get is, don't most humans have a shared set of common values, like wanting to help and protect the poor/elderly, the disadvantaged, and make the country/planet a better place to live for all? OR are the vast majority of politicians (that serve in a democratic system) really just in it for themselves?

 

(This was from last week, the first question posed was by a labour councillor in my old area, the question is valid but the Prime Minister (Conservative or Republican party - I liken the Conservatives to the US Republican Party) flannels the answer )

The leader of the opposition Jeremy Corbin has, in the past been a Republican IRA sympathiser - So he isn't very much liked in the House of Commons, or by voters of Labour our equivalent to the US democrat persuasion)

The Wednesday Prime Ministers Questions is a real farce, and most of my friends do not like the format or the lack of decorum evidenced during the back and forth between the PM and members of the opposition Parties.

I guess it's better than the Russian system (rigged elections) - but it isn't a edifiying spectacle on any level. 

Cheers'

Fansongecho

@spacemaverick - thanks for the link/post just now.

[ArMaP]

I always try to say things in the most diplomatic manner I can at the time, but, like any other person, I have good and bad moments, so it's natural that sometimes I'm not diplomatic in the way I say/write things.

As usual, I thought about what I wrote after writing it, and reached the conclusion that the above was a less than honest way of saying I was sorry.

As I like to be honest with myself (I think that's the only way we can become better than we are) I will rephrase the above as it should have been.


I'm sorry for the rude way of my post. Nobody here is responsible for the stress I have been under at work, so nobody should be the target of my bad humour. I'll try not to do it again, but I can't promise it, as this has happened before and I haven't been able to preventing it from happening again, as we can see.

[fansongecho]

@ArMaP, here is hoping you have a much better time at work m8, I do enjoy your views and inputs, and logic, so please do keep it going, as you may have guessed, I am not into conflict of any type - I love this forum and thousands of topics and members viewpoints and commentary. Have a good one! 

[The Seeker]

re·pub·lic
rəˈpəblik/Submit
noun

a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch.

Yes Mav, we have a Federated Republic, since we have the Constitution as our charter  and it, along with the states's constitutions, dictate how we the people are directed to govern ourselves...

The definition comes from the dictionary.  Click the link to see the rest.  This same thing was told to me in my civics classes before our schools became corrupted by progressives.

As was I and the majority of our generation 
The broken education system leads to dysfunction on multiple levels from the man on the street all the way to the upper levels of government; the removal or should I say abdication of numerous representatives along with the ongoing shift in both the political parties is a move towards improvement 

Glad you are sticking around, old friend 

[petrus4]

As was I and the majority of our generation 
The broken education system leads to dysfunction on multiple levels from the man on the street all the way to the upper levels of government; the removal or should I say abdication of numerous representatives along with the ongoing shift in both the political parties is a move towards improvement 

The Left were given a lot of power under Barry, and they badly abused it.  I consider a lot of conservative thinking to be repugnant, but the likes of Bill Maher and Michael Moore need some kind of political counterweight to them.  If they don't have it, then they get above themselves and start being very nasty towards anyone who disagrees with them about anything.

I truthfully would also like to see identity politics stopped once and for all, because I haven't seen it cause anything other than damage and conflict.  I genuinely do believe that feminism was a necessary and positive thing once, but it isn't any more.

[ArMaP]

The fact that people vote for representatives has nothing to do with making anything free.

It's that underlined part that makes it a democracy, specifically a representative democracy, as the representatives are elected by the people.

[Irene]

That would have been a departure into pure insanity.

Nah, it would have been the same old "Destroy the Republic" shit. Treason, graft, murder, pedophilia.

https://qanon.pub/