On Sol 84 (Oct. 31, 2012), NASA's Curiosity rover used the Mars Hand Lens Imager (MAHLI) to capture this set of 55 high-resolution images, which were stitched together to create this full-color self-portrat.
(http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy68/mikeybandb/703574main-MSL-self-portrait-pia16239-20121101-full_uncensored.jpg)
The Image above is a copy of the original posted on NASA's site.
Link to my copy of original image: http://s778.photobucket.com/albums/yy68/mikeybandb/?action=view¤t=703574main-MSL-self-portrait-pia16239-20121101-full_uncensored.jpg
(http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy68/mikeybandb/703574main-MSL-self-portrait-pia16239-20121101-full_uncensored-1.png)
(http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy68/mikeybandb/capture_001_02112012_164604.png)
Now when you click the link to the pic, the cross like object has been removed.
http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/703574main_MSL%20self-portrait%20pia16239%2020121101_full.jpg (http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/703574main_MSL%20self-portrait%20pia16239%2020121101_full.jpg)
(http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy68/mikeybandb/703574main_MSLself-%3Cbr%20/%3Eportraitpia1623920121101_full.jpg)
(http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy68/mikeybandb/capture_001_02112012_164310.png)
Mikeybandb, someone has a great eye to find this cross. Did you find this? Wow! It is a bit strange that it was there, in the pic, and now it is not. Obviously, must be a very simple scientific reason, that a cross is/was not really there! ??? Probably just another weather balloon - oops, this is supposed to be Mars, not Earth!!
With what is visible of the cross, the symmetrics seem to be right, with the horizontal member being evenly divided side to side. Maybe won't be much discussion on this, as it just is not acceptable logic for this to be here, in the photo. Take it out of the photo, don't discuss it, and this "anomaly" might just go away! Whether a crucifixion type cross, or a power pole type cross, it just gets in the way of conventional/acceptable thinking, for Mars!!
Hey Mikeyb, long time off line.
When I looked at the cross I thought wind mill. It is very far away and still huge to the horizion. Any thoughts?
Deuem
It certainly doesnt appear tp be an anomaly of the pasting..its a clear feature. Has NASA placed antennas to amplify curiousity's signals or message sending capability perhaps?
Either way, the shape to me doent appear to be religion related as the base vertical has a different form to it. Something like the big Dubal skyscraper shaped like a sail, with a crossbar horizontally about 3/4 of the way up.
My guess is..if its not manmade or placed its an outpost of some sort, or an antenna from some other species left there as a repeater....
If manmade? Then an antenna for sending signals somewhere NASA hasnt spoke of, perhaps because the signals arent coming back to Earth. 8)
Or the Christians have already sent missionaries to Mars... :o
Le
wind mill was my first thought also
If you go to Mikey's original pic link, bring up the cross pic, and then go to negative screen, you will see a slightly more discernible view of the cross, as it will be black. About the same, just a little different view.
Comment on Youtube says the cross is in the full size 32meg version from NASA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPOAV7TWMgA
So far I can only find a 15 meg version. Also we need to find the original 55 images that created this picture (it is a mosaic)
Sounds like a job for ArMaP :D
QuoteHigh-Resolution Self-Portrait by Curiosity Rover Arm Camera
On Sol 84 (Oct. 31, 2012), NASA's Curiosity rover used the Mars Hand Lens Imager (MAHLI) to capture this set of 55 high-resolution images, which were stitched together to create this full-color self-portrait.
The mosaic shows the rover at "Rocknest," the spot in Gale Crater where the mission's first scoop sampling took place. Four scoop scars can be seen in the regolith in front of the rover.
The base of Gale Crater's 3-mile-high (5-kilometer) sedimentary mountain, Mount Sharp, rises on the right side of the frame. Mountains in the background to the left are the northern wall of Gale Crater. The Martian landscape appears inverted within the round, reflective ChemCam instrument at the top of the rover's mast.
Self-portraits like this one document the state of the rover and allow mission engineers to track changes over time, such as dust accumulation and wheel wear. Due to its location on the end of the robotic arm, only MAHLI (among the rover's 17 cameras) is able to image some parts of the craft, including the port-side wheels.
This high-resolution mosaic is a more detailed version of the low-resolution version created with thumbnail images, at: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/msl/multimedia/pia16238.html .
Image Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech/Malin Space Science Systems
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/msl/multimedia/pia16239.html
As I said early into this Curiosity mission, it will be interesting when we see at some point, what the real reason is, for NASA coming to the Gale crater area. May turn out to be nothing, or, it may turn our to be the way for a real revelation of "other life" on the planet, at some point - past and/or present ;)
I think this (http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl-raw-images/msss/00084/mhli/0084MH0071000011E1_DXXX.jpg) is the image where the cross should appear, but there's no cross in there.
Too bad you didn't look at the original images when you saw that cross.
Quote from: ArMaP on November 03, 2012, 06:51:45 PM
I think this (http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl-raw-images/msss/00084/mhli/0084MH0071000011E1_DXXX.jpg) is the image where the cross should appear, but there's no cross in there.
Too bad you didn't look at the original images when you saw that cross.
Why is the image upside down?
Quote from: watchZEITGEISTnow on November 03, 2012, 11:54:54 PM
Why is the image upside down?
Because, that is a correct orientation for ArMaP - upside down on everything!! :D
Just kidding of course. ;)
Quote from: watchZEITGEISTnow on November 03, 2012, 11:54:54 PM
Why is the image upside down?
I suppose that's because that camera was not made to take photos of the area around the rover, it was made to take photos of the ground and of rock samples.
Looks to me more like a dish antennae than a normal cross; does the rover have a satellite uplink?
seeker
Quote from: the seeker on November 04, 2012, 01:56:26 AM
Looks to me more like a dish antennae than a normal cross; does the rover have a satellite uplink?
seeker
Interesting! Doesn't look like any dish antenna that I have ever seen! Of course, if it is not in the later pics, then, either the cross anomaly is not there, or NASA doesn't want anyone to see it.
As I mentioned, look at it in "negative display screen", it won't look like a "dish"!
BTW - there does appear to be something on the vertical leg of that cross, as there is something that covers the view of the lower part of it, starting at the croas-angle. ???
Why on earth do people on Earth, think that other Civilisations in this Universe,
would use such Primitive Communication Systems involving RF ? (Radio Frequency)
Or even Energy based Propulsion Systems for that matter?
Why Oh Why ? ::)
Quote from: The Matrix Traveller on November 04, 2012, 02:56:35 AM
Why Oh Why ? ::)
Probably has some remote relationship to "common sense", as well as the facts of all known science and physics pretty much dictates that objects are only moved by "applied force" - ie, for every action there is an opposite reaction. Of course in the world of make believe, we can move objects pretty much anyway we want to, including just thinking a thing, and the thing happens. ;)
Stargates and wormholes would certainly be nice features for exploring whatever there is "out there" to explore. But thus far, those features are still in the realm of make believe, and wishful thinking, as there is no "reality" of their existence (on Earth). However, the non-reality of them does make for good and interesting conversation here at the forum!
Quote from: rdunk on November 04, 2012, 05:20:28 AM
Probably has some remote relationship to "common sense", as well as the facts of all known science and physics pretty much dictates that objects are only moved by "applied force" - ie, for every action there is an opposite reaction. Of course in the world of make believe, we can move objects pretty much anyway we want to, including just thinking a thing, and the thing happens. ;)
Stargates and wormholes would certainly be nice features for exploring whatever there is "out there" to explore. But thus far, those features are still in the realm of make believe, and wishful thinking, as there is no "reality" of their existence (on Earth). However, the non-reality of them does make for good and interesting conversation here at the forum!
Perhaps there is
Another Way other than what you chosen to mention above ?
Anyway back on Topic again..... A very interesting find.
I wonder if we will get a closer view or other photos showing this Cross ?
Maybe a "Monolith" ? Or perhaps something else.
Quote from: The Matrix Traveller on November 04, 2012, 05:49:12 AM
Anyway back on Topic again..... A very interesting find.
I wonder if we will get a closer view or other photos showing this Cross ?
Maybe a "Monolith" ? Or perhaps something else.
Matrix, I am still pretty amazed that someone even found this, because at the distance it is from the camera, it just does not stand out like a sore thumb. Really, one cannot see it at all, until considerable magnification of the photo, and even then, it still is not very noticeable. Of course, if you and I were in charge of the "mission", I think we might direct that the Rover run on over there and get a really good look for us, doncha think?!!
It could very well be nothing, but...........whatever it is has a considerable look of intelligent design. At humpteen million miles away, on another planet, one would think this anomaly would raise the bar enough for NASA to want to take another look, a "close look"!! :P
QuoteProbably has some remote relationship to "common sense", as well as the facts of all known science and physics pretty much dictates that objects are only moved by "applied force" - ie, for every action there is an opposite reaction.
The Human species are Like babies in this Universe, they still can't traverse their own Galaxy
from one side to the other yet.
Fact... this is due to Ignorance, can't be denied !
So we have a huge amount to discover,
before we get over being grounded. :D
Then again, Some might know what this "Cross" actually is, which may or may not explain why
it is not seen in later photos.
We can only Guess... :D
In
NZ there is a "Transmission Antenna" at Tangimoana which is in the form of a
cross.
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/45jack_files/04images/Bases/Tangimoana_004.jpg)
But as I said, those with "Technologies" millions of years ahead of Primates on the Earth,
would not use primitive tech. like those on Earth using
RF.
Our "Transport Systems" and where we are at in this Universe, speaks for itself.
If we gauge what we think we know, against what we don't know, is embarrassing
to say the least, but the Human species has to
START somewhere I guess.
Like at the "Beginning".. :D
But what we experience is Intended to get us asking Questions.... :D
I looked at the pictures. It was there. Now it isn't. Don't know.
Shasta
Okay, maybe I'm dense and don't intend to be smart aleck but I am just curious about something. We have a picture of the rover. What or who is taking the picture? There is no extension arm coming from the rover with a camera on the end of it. So who or what is taking the picture of the rover. Everyone is focused on the cross....just sayin
Quote from: Shasta56 on November 04, 2012, 02:44:57 PM
I looked at the pictures. It was there. Now it isn't. Don't know.
Was it in the individual image or in the panorama?
In the third picture in the op when I enlarged the inset box the outlines look very like a dish, not the enlarged inset next to it...http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy68/mikeybandb/capture_001_02112012_164604.png
@matrix, consider we poor monkey people as a rule are stuck within the constraints of the box we've been placed within and the "rules" we have been taught to follow as to how the universe operates...
please don't get too aggravated at us, for those here are more likely to seek what is outside the box rather than bleating like sheep repeating the standard drivel...
@spacemaverick, i also am curious as to how the panorama was taken without the arm being shown in the pic...
seeker
Quote from: ArMaP on November 04, 2012, 05:11:06 PM
QuoteI looked at the pictures. It was there. Now it isn't. Don't know.
Was it in the individual image or in the panorama?
Good Point...
Perhaps it is
Not about
What it is, but rather
Why it is seen, then
Not seen.
If we ask the
right "Questions" we get the
Right "Answers".
And if we ask the
Wrong "Questions" we get the
Wrong "Answers".
So the "Question" is the
Key and the "Answers" shall come
if pursued..
Quote from: the seeker on November 04, 2012, 07:03:35 PM
In the third picture in the op when I enlarged the inset box the outlines look very like a dish, not the enlarged inset next to it...http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy68/mikeybandb/capture_001_02112012_164604.png
@matrix, consider we poor monkey people as a rule are stuck within the constraints of the box we've been placed within and the "rules" we have been taught to follow as to how the universe operates...
please don't get too aggravated at us, for those here are more likely to seek what is outside the box rather than bleating like sheep repeating the standard drivel...
@spacemaverick, i also am curious as to how the panorama was taken without the arm being shown in the pic...
seeker
Quoteplease don't get too aggravated at us,
NOT the Case !
Quote from: spacemaverick on November 04, 2012, 04:57:36 PM
Okay, maybe I'm dense and don't intend to be smart aleck but I am just curious about something. We have a picture of the rover. What or who is taking the picture? There is no extension arm coming from the rover with a camera on the end of it. So who or what is taking the picture of the rover. Everyone is focused on the cross....just sayin
It's a very good question. :)
The trick of making panoramas is to get photos that overlap each other, so we (or the software used for making panoramas) can get references when joining them and to remove things that appear out of place in the finished panorama, like the tripod where the camera was (I had to remove a tripod more than once).
In this case, what was removed was the arm that has at it's end the camera (besides other instruments) that took the photos. In the image below you can see what was removed.
(http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r66/armap/Curiosity.gif)
Hi ArMaP,
You could be onto it !
So are you saying, the "Cross" could be the result of Software, i.e involving 4 of the sub frames
not joining correctly, leaving narrow gaps forming the "Cross" ?
Why would things be missing from the original picture? My first thought when I saw this first was... "who took the picture" I still dont understand??
Also, could the "cross" be a registration mark or crosshair between images before pasting them together??
I did google "nasa crosshairs", but all the images I quickly looked at showed the crosshairs to be black on all the pictures I viewed.
I guess its somewhat like the pictures of Neil Armstrong setting foot on the moon, who was taking these?? I can live with the thought of when the module took off and a remote camera being used... but this has always baffled me also.
Good old NASA!! :P
Quote from: The Matrix Traveller on November 04, 2012, 10:49:56 PM
So are you saying, the "Cross" could be the result of Software, i.e involving 4 of the sub frames
not joining correctly, leaving narrow gaps forming the "Cross" ?
I'm not saying it, but if the "cross" only appeared on the panorama then it's most like a side effect of the making of the panorama.
Quote from: simon_alex0327 on November 04, 2012, 10:59:59 PM
Why would things be missing from the original picture?
If by "original picture" you are talking about the picture showing the whole rover, then that's because that's not the original picture, that's a panorama made with several (I think it was 55) photos. Each one of those photos is an original, the resulting image is not.
QuoteMy first thought when I saw this first was... "who took the picture" I still dont understand??
The rover took the picture, with a camera on an arm that was extended to the front left of the rover (the point of view of the panorama).
In the animated GIF I posted you can see that there was a white arm at the bottom of the image that doesn't appear in the panorama (either removed by hand or by the panorama making software) but appears in one of the original photos that show that area and that I superimposed on (a reduced size version of ) the panorama.
QuoteAlso, could the "cross" be a registration mark or crosshair between images before pasting them together??
No, there's no need for that, the features in the images are enough to join them.
QuoteI guess its somewhat like the pictures of Neil Armstrong setting foot on the moon, who was taking these??
Wasn't that a video? It was a camera on the MESA (Modularized Equipment Stowage Assembly) that was put in position by the pulling of a lever by Armstrong when he started to climb down the ladder.
I hope all of the above helps. :)
Quote from: rdunk on November 04, 2012, 05:20:28 AM
Stargates and wormholes would certainly be nice features for exploring whatever there is "out there" to explore. But thus far, those features are still in the realm of make believe, and wishful thinking, as there is no "reality" of their existence (on Earth). However, the non-reality of them does make for good and interesting conversation here at the forum!
Perhaps you need to read this thread posted by Zorgon; it is very enlightening concerning both Stargates, wormholes, and scientific proof of their existence...
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/forum/index.php?topic=1765.0
seeker
I saw the cross in the picture posted on phootobucket. I'm probably the last person anyone should ask about photo techniques. Seriously. I'm a cat. I don't even have opposable thumbs.
Shasta
Quote from: ArMaP on November 05, 2012, 01:33:47 AM
In the animated GIF I posted you can see that there was a white arm at the bottom of the image that doesn't appear in the panorama (either removed by hand or by the panorama making software) but appears in one of the original photos that show that area and that I superimposed on (a reduced size version of ) the panorama.
I still dont understand why this was removed. The final picture is misleading for anyone viewing it and seeing an image that looks like it was photographed from behind by an unknown source.
Quote from: ArMaP on November 05, 2012, 01:33:47 AM
either removed by hand or by the panorama making software
So, we now have proof NASA doctors their images. I guess the pyramids, hi-rise buildings and aliens inspecting our marvelous technology have also been removed by hand or software???
Who can we trust??? :-*
Just about anything can be done with Photos, so really in todays world, Photos are no longer
regarded or intended as proof.
In this case they are only useful to examine, whether or not they are authentic,
can only be taken on "Trust".
So it depends on whether you trust the NASA or Not ! :D
Only those in the NASA and "LIFE" will know if they are "Authentic" or Not... :D
Quote from: ArMaP on November 05, 2012, 01:33:47 AM
It was a camera on the MESA (Modularized Equipment Stowage Assembly) that was put in position by the pulling of a lever by Armstrong when he started to climb down the ladder.
What, on the Moon? :o
There is no moon... its just a hologram :P
More fuel for the fire?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5JMKrTAK5c
Le
Let me add some more LE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc9R3oKlVXY
Simple really Its a mosaic of 55 pictures... they simply overlaid pieces of it to get the desired effect of a self portrait. The arm is not shown because they left those portions out in the overlay.
This is not one picture, but a created work using 55 images
In other words, NASA techs manipulated an image ...again :P thus any anomaly in this composite photo would likely be a result of that stitching :D
Funny no one commented on the fact that it's only one back ground :D
More NASA photography manipulation...
Spirit in "Columbia Hills"
(http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/specialEffects/spirit/images/PIA07829_plusRover-A667R1_br2.jpg)
Spirit on Flank of "Husband Hill"
(http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/specialEffects/spirit/images/PIA07855_plusRover-A667R1_br2.jpg)
Spirit Silhouetted on "Jibsheet"
(http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/specialEffects/spirit/images/PIA07997_plusRover-A667R1_br2.jpg)
TRUST NASA... they NEVER make things up :P
I don't think I have ever trusted NASA since I started studying their pictures and had you all that was on OMF enlighten me as to their manipulation. Thanks for reminding me Zorgon! Getting older, I have CRS sometimes. (Can't Remember ....) lol
Quote from: the seeker on November 05, 2012, 02:13:45 AM
Perhaps you need to read this thread posted by Zorgon; it is very enlightening concerning both Stargates, wormholes, and scientific proof of their existence...
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/forum/index.php?topic=1765.0
seeker
That's a really good place for a religious man to start reading.... and thanks for posting that Seeky ! 8)
(http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/specialEffects/spirit/images/PIA07855_plusRover-A667R1_br2.jpg)
Looks like some remote areas in the South Island of NZ... :D
I guess similar areas may exist in Ausie ? Am I right Soma ?
Quote from: simon_alex0327 on November 05, 2012, 03:02:30 AM
I still dont understand why this was removed.
Someone probably thought it would look better without part of the arm in the photo.
QuoteThe final picture is misleading for anyone viewing it and seeing an image that looks like it was photographed from behind by an unknown source.
Most panoramas (regardless of what they show) based on a central point of view are that way, like those I did from which I had to remove the trypod.
QuoteSo, we now have proof NASA doctors their images.
A panorama is, by definition, an artificial image.
QuoteI guess the pyramids, hi-rise buildings and aliens inspecting our marvelous technology have also been removed by hand or software???
If they were (which I doubt) then I guess it was done by hand, as that type of work would be hard to be done perfectly by software.
QuoteWho can we trust??? :-*
Me? ;D
Quote from: The Matrix Traveller on November 05, 2012, 03:58:58 AM
Just about anything can be done with Photos, so really in todays world, Photos are no longer
regarded or intended as proof.
It's not just in today's world, that has been part of photography since the beginning.
QuoteIn this case they are only useful to examine, whether or not they are authentic, can only be taken on "Trust".
Like any other data that we not witness with our own senses, and even then it's just because we trust them. :)
Quote from: Pimander on November 05, 2012, 11:18:27 AM
What, on the Moon? :o
As far as I know that was the only place besides Earth where Armstrong went.
Quote from: Littleenki on November 05, 2012, 01:24:32 PM
More fuel for the fire?
No, just a different (and needless) presentation of the same fuel. :)
Quote from: spacemaverick on November 05, 2012, 03:46:27 PM
Let me add some more LE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc9R3oKlVXY
That video is so stupid is not even funny. First he provides the answer then he says nobody can explain it. ;D
Quote from: ArMaP on November 06, 2012, 01:00:52 AM
No, just a different (and needless) presentation of the same fuel. :)
Oh different? Then perhaps not so needless, as it does show the asinine level of one little tidbit going viral!
Id like to see something real from the rover someday..well just have to wait and hope...
QuoteId like to see something real from the rover someday..well just have to wait and hope...
Same here.
I would just like to see Mars as it is, in normal colour, without all the entertainment
BS,
which goes with it. (Graphics Produces trying to impress others, with their Tech. tricks)
OK if you like Art or are looking to identify certain Data in one way or other.
But I would just like to see photos, in normal Colour, before being modified in any way ... ;D
I would like a Link, if anyone has one, to see
normal original photos, without having
to wade through pages and pages and pages and pages.... , before finding the real deal. ;D
Quote from: The Matrix Traveller on November 05, 2012, 09:04:28 PM
(http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/specialEffects/spirit/images/PIA07855_plusRover-A667R1_br2.jpg)
Looks like some remote areas in the South Island of NZ... :D
I guess similar areas may exist in Ausie ? Am I right Soma ?
Looks a lot like southwestern Wyoming. I've driven through there a few times.
Shasta
Quote from: spacemaverick on November 04, 2012, 04:57:36 PM
Okay, maybe I'm dense and don't intend to be smart aleck but I am just curious about something. We have a picture of the rover. What or who is taking the picture? There is no extension arm coming from the rover with a camera on the end of it. So who or what is taking the picture of the rover. Everyone is focused on the cross....just sayin
Was scrolling and scrolling to see if anyOne was asking this question. Now i will go back and see if anyOne has a satisfactory answer...
Quote from: ArMaP on November 06, 2012, 01:14:39 AM
That video is so stupid is not even funny. First he provides the answer then he says nobody can explain it. ;D
ADGUK = DISINFO !
DARK 'EM!
In case you missed ArMaP's post.
Quote from: ArMaP on November 05, 2012, 01:33:47 AM
The rover took the picture, with a camera on an arm that was extended to the front left of the rover (the point of view of the panorama).
In the animated GIF I posted you can see that there was a white arm at the bottom of the image that doesn't appear in the panorama (either removed by hand or by the panorama making software) but appears in one of the original photos that show that area and that I superimposed on (a reduced size version of ) the panorama.
The next stage is to ask further questions about this explanation if you think it doesn't make sense.
My observation is that while this explanation makes sense, it also shows that NASA still definitely tamper with images for public consumption. :P
My suggestion would be that they also publish the raw images alongside (via a small print link perhaps) so they can be accessed easily and inspected by suspicious parties or researchers.
Quote from: Pimander on November 06, 2012, 11:57:01 AM
My suggestion would be that they also publish the raw images alongside (via a small print link perhaps) so they can be accessed easily and inspected by suspicious parties or researchers.
Anyone that considers himself/herself a researcher should know where the images are. :)
Quote from: ArMaP on November 06, 2012, 01:48:45 PM
Anyone that considers himself/herself a researcher should know where the images are. :)
Researchers should, but even they can't get hold of raw data sometimes. However, many who might be suspicious or interested in how images are prepared are not really researchers. NASA's mission statement says something about education and information.
If it is something the public are asking about, then in the spirit of openness and education, it is not difficult to publish how an image has been prepared and links to any raw data. While this does not happen, people will always speculate as to why.
Quote from: ArMaP on November 06, 2012, 01:48:45 PM
Anyone that considers himself/herself a researcher should know where the images are. :)
Yep, and in the case of ADGUK their subscriber list would shrink to nothing in weeks, as the people would see that theres a bit too much hanky panky going on there!
Hi ArMaP
I understand what you are describing. esp if the Camera especially if the Camera is swung
through an arc or lateral movement is involved. I no expert in Photography but suspect that this
may be what has left the image of the "cross", seen in the panorama. :D
QuoteAnyone that considers himself/herself a researcher should know where the images are.
As I have
NOT been a researcher in this area.
So please inform us where these "Images" are, or can be found in the NASA. :D
Dismissing suspicion etc, I am fascinated in the exploration of Mars and just want to see
what Mars looks like, in plain old human terms, rather than an Artists view or enhanced production.
Perhaps these enhanced graphics are of value to some, other than "Entertainment"
but I would just like to see the real deal
before any Graphics manipulation.
Its Not that I am suspicious its just that I enjoy seeing what a landscape actually is
rather that what we would expect it to be.
I never enhance photos, I take of places I have visited, esp. in other Countries, I send
back to family, because I like to show/capture the real deal in my photos. :D
Quote from: The Matrix Traveller on November 06, 2012, 06:23:56 PM
So please inform us where these "Images" are, or can be found in the NASA. :D
A lot of the raw data from NASA is in forms that most internet users cannot easily access on their computer. One example is .cub files which are generally 1 Gb or more in size and require a Linus based system and a program like Sandia Labs Cubit or the new ISIS from USGS
So just having the links to the data is not always useful
NASA also hasd FTP access drives and password secure sites where you can request info IF you know what to ask and who to ask, as in the case of the Mars Methane discover papers
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/04images/Mars4/Life/NASA_Access_001.png)
Now the thing is that what happens on a forum ist that people tend to just want to talk and are quite happy to let others do the work :P
It is however frustrating at times to real researchers when people repeatedly ask for links to stuff that has been available for a long time
For example Pegasus List of NASA web sources
From the TOP of the menu page on Pegasus...
Pegasus Files Main Menu
Breaking News: Items of Interest (updated as time allows)
Member Articles: Articles by Pegasus Members
Important Articles: Archive of past breaking news still of interest
Link Database: List of Links to Official sites and other useful addresses
Research Papers: A collection of files in PDF and other formats inc. FOIA papers
Patents on File: Archive of Patents Related to Pegasus Research Currently in Our Library
Video Clips: A collection of relevant videos from various sources
Resources: Patent Offices, Etc
Our Other Sites: Pegasus and Guest websites
Now I have not updated that for a while with the new sites I have since found, mostly because I figured seeing as no one actually USES the resource, that there was little point but lets take NASA links for example;
NASA AND SPACE RELATED SOURCES AND ARTICLES
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/41pegasus/09database/page000.html#NASA2
Several YEARS worth of stuff there to look at :P
I think I will update it and maybe ArMaP can help me check for ones I am missing.
I have about a thousand more links in a temp file I just need to add... but time is an issue
The PDF file database is currently set to password access only due to possible copyright issues of some papers I have not had time to verify. There are also about 6000 or so more documents to process and add to the file base
The Patent database has full official copies of some really awesome patents... like about 100 or so from Tesla
Sigh.... but of what use is all that if no one even looks?
::)
Data from NASA's Missions, Research, and Activities
http://www.nasa.gov/open/data.html
Quote from: deuem on November 03, 2012, 05:03:33 AM
Hey Mikeyb, long time off line.
When I looked at the cross I thought wind mill. It is very far away and still huge to the horizion. Any thoughts?
Deuem
Indeed it has been a long time, my Friend. My first thoughts were of a Power Pole,Bldg/Tower,Antenna. Also if real, it must be ? miles high & wide.
Quote from: The Matrix Traveller on November 06, 2012, 06:23:56 PM
As I have NOT been a researcher in this area.
So please inform us where these "Images" are, or can be found in the NASA. :D
I don't see myself as a researcher (although, by being a member of the Pegasus Research Consortium forum, maybe I should :) ), but the images I consider closer to the original, raw images are the ones on the Planetary Data System (PDS). The problem with it is that photos from the several missions are only sent there after some time (usually some six months, they usually publish a schedule of the planed PDS releases). If the Curiosity mission is like the Opportunity/Spirit missions, they get the images, convert them to a web friendly format (JPEG) and then publish them, so while the photos available here (http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/multimedia/raw/) are close to the originals they do not have the same quality as they were just published for publishing sake.
(I haven't followed the technical part of Curiosity's mission, so I don't really know if they are publishing photos in another site or when they intend to send them to the PDS)
QuoteDismissing suspicion etc, I am fascinated in the exploration of Mars and just want to see
what Mars looks like, in plain old human terms, rather than an Artists view or enhanced production.
I think that the Curiosity photos from the link I posted above show the closest to what we would see in Mars
QuotePerhaps these enhanced graphics are of value to some, other than "Entertainment"
but I would just like to see the real deal before any Graphics manipulation.
Those would be hard to find, as they are not originally in a human-understandable format, they are just digital data sent back to Earth.
QuoteIts Not that I am suspicious its just that I enjoy seeing what a landscape actually is
rather that what we would expect it to be.
I think that the L4+L5+L6 photos from the Mars Rovers are very closed to what we would see.
Something like this one.
(http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r66/armap/1P128544926RAD0205P2355L4L5L6C1-2.png)
QuoteI never enhance photos, I take of places I have visited, esp. in other Countries, I send
back to family, because I like to show/capture the real deal in my photos. :D
You have an advantage there, you were looking at the scene that was photographed, so you have a mental "conversion table" that makes the adjustments to allow you to see things exactly like you saw them. As far as I know you haven't been to Mars. ;)
Quote from: zorgon on November 06, 2012, 09:21:01 PM
A lot of the raw data from NASA is in forms that most internet users cannot easily access on their computer. One example is .cub files which are generally 1 Gb or more in size and require a Linus based system and a program like Sandia Labs Cubit or the new ISIS from USGS
.cub files are usually already processed, that's why they are so big. Those Clementine files, for example, had five (if I'm not mistaken) different filters and the images were panoramas made with hundreds of the original, 288 × 384 pixel images from the UV/Vis camera.
QuoteSigh.... but of what use is all that if no one even looks?
Thank you Z... I will definitely take a look when I get a spare moment... ;D
Quote from: ArMaP on November 07, 2012, 01:58:25 AM
The problem with it is that photos from the several missions are only sent there after some time (usually some six months, they usually publish a schedule of the planed PDS releases).
AH! I see... so that gives them 6 months to make sure anything 'incriminating' is removed from the images before releasing them :D
::)
Quote from: zorgon on November 07, 2012, 02:29:12 AM
AH! I see... so that gives them 6 months to make sure anything 'incriminating' is removed from the images before releasing them :D
::)
Couple that with the fact that they either remove things by hand or by the panorama making software.
Quote from: zorgon on November 07, 2012, 02:29:12 AM
AH! I see... so that gives them 6 months to make sure anything 'incriminating' is removed from the images before releasing them :D
::)
Then how do we get photos from the previous day?
The photos published in the PDS are not the only photos published.
Quote from: simon_alex0327 on November 07, 2012, 02:45:41 AM
Couple that with the fact that they either remove things by hand or by the panorama making software.
Obviously, only in panoramas, because that's how panoramas are made.
Quote from: ArMaP on November 07, 2012, 09:23:00 AM
Then how do we get photos from the previous day?
Stock footage from previous missions. I mean after all how do we know when they were taken> One Martian rock looks about the same as any other Martian rock :P
I mean heck, they could even be from the Atacama Desert for all we know :P
or somewhere in Nevada :D
(http://weheartminnesota.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/RedRockCanyonRocks-570x300.jpg)
Looks like a beautiful Day on earth in that Photo Z, going by that BLUE Sky... ;D
Didn't know the Sky was BLUE on Mars... :D
Quote from: zorgon on November 07, 2012, 09:39:45 AM
Stock footage from previous missions. I mean after all how do we know when they were taken> One Martian rock looks about the same as any other Martian rock :P
If it's stock footage from previous missions how do they look different from the previous missions' photos?
QuoteI mean heck, they could even be from the Atacama Desert for all we know :P
or somewhere in Nevada :D
Only for those that cannot tell the difference between the different types of erosion, things on Mars are really different. :)
Quote from: The Matrix Traveller on November 07, 2012, 09:55:40 AM
Didn't know the Sky was BLUE on Mars... :D
It depends on what photos you look at. :)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img140/5305/2p261833623effay00p2298kk9.jpg)
Why do people complain that some files require Linux? Linus is free, easy to install and does pretty much everything you need. You can even have it running on a partition alongside Windows. I only use Windows at the University and on one website that doesn't work in Firefox on Linux only Internet Explorer on Windows- which pisses me off! Next time I do some maintenance I think I am going to kiss Windows goodbye on this PC.
ISIS is free too.
Quote from: The Matrix Traveller on November 07, 2012, 09:55:40 AM
Didn't know the Sky was BLUE on Mars... :D
After 6 years of color debate at ATS that is ONE thing ArMaP and I agree upon :D And the old Viking pictures also agree :D
I do notice that NASA has finally given up tinting all the mars images dark red... even if they did pick the most boring see nothing place on mars to land that thing
So I take it then that the sky shown in the above Photo is "Tinted", yes ?
Why "Tinted" this Color ?
The sky appears the same as this in NZ. :D
From the Horizon, (Land or Sea) Emerald changing to dark Blue in the "Zenith".
Quote from: The Matrix Traveller on November 07, 2012, 06:44:43 PM
So I take it then that the sky shown in the above Photo is "Tinted", yes ?
The sun on Mars is the same Sun that we have on Earth... why would the sky look any different? The blue sky is created by Rayleigh scattering on the molecules in the atmosphere. f there is no dust in the air, Martian skies are just as blue as they are here on earth.
When the dust storms hit you will see red skies, just like here on Earth, like this in Australia
(http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/ausdust_09_23/d18_20458747.jpg)
(http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/ausdust_09_23/d06_20461205.jpg)
I've seen red skies in Texas like the ones in the Australia photos. The open space can give birth to some wicked dust storms. I thought that the thinner atmosphere on Mars would make the sky look different though. Less intense.
Shasta
Quote from: Shasta56 on November 08, 2012, 06:34:05 PM
I thought that the thinner atmosphere on Mars would make the sky look different though.
When there is little dust, the thinner atmosphere would make the sky look more toward the blue end of the spectrum. That is why some (not all) of the earlier Mars shots released to the public are amusing.
This is an original image from JPL taken by Viking lander before NASA started tinting every thing red on Mars and Lava Orange on Venus
These were only released a few years ago ;)
Seems NASA has finally decides to let us see Mars as our eyes would see it if we were there :D (which is likely why they picked the most boring featureless rockless crater they could find :D
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/04images/Mars5/Viking_1/sir3lv5.jpg)
Boring? Isn't that rock covered in moss? :o
Hmmm, does appear to have a brown lichenous type fuzz growing on it, Pi; wonder what Never A Straight Answer dissed that off as...
seeker
Quote from: Pimander on November 08, 2012, 11:50:49 PM
Boring? Isn't that rock covered in moss? :o
I don't think so, it looks like a very rough rock covered with dust.
PS: I don't know if rough is the best word for what I am thinking, I am thinking the opposite of smooth. :)
Quote from: Pimander on November 08, 2012, 11:50:49 PM
Boring? Isn't that rock covered in moss? :o
No I meant boring at their current choice of location :P
Quote from: ArMaP on November 11, 2012, 12:54:16 AM
I don't think so, it looks like a very rough rock covered with dust.
PS: I don't know if rough is the best word for what I am thinking, I am thinking the opposite of smooth. :)
ARmap, I would accept rust before I would dust; the soil around the base of the boulder appears to be fine sand; the texture of that upon said boulder is different, appears coarser in the image, and is adhering to slopes and angles that dust would not normally accumulate on...
but that s just my point of view... ;D
seeker
Quote from: the seeker on November 11, 2012, 01:24:28 AM
ARmap, I would accept rust before I would dust; the soil around the base of the boulder appears to be fine sand; the texture of that upon said boulder is different, appears coarser in the image, and is adhering to slopes and angles that dust would not normally accumulate on...
I think that's a result of the rough surface of the rock, that's why the dust is able to remain on places that look difficult or impossible.
Quote from: spacemaverick on November 04, 2012, 04:57:36 PM
Okay, maybe I'm dense and don't intend to be smart aleck but I am just curious about something. We have a picture of the rover. What or who is taking the picture? There is no extension arm coming from the rover with a camera on the end of it. So who or what is taking the picture of the rover. Everyone is focused on the cross....just sayin
This article partially answers the "who or what" took the picture...
http://cosmiclog.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/01/14858422-mars-rover-snaps-spooky-portraits
Quote from: mikeybandb on November 15, 2012, 12:05:35 AM
This article partially answers the "who or what" took the picture...
http://cosmiclog.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/01/14858422-mars-rover-snaps-spooky-portraits
Well, I think you answered that question pretty good. I appreciate the help.
Just a matter of interest. Having Designed and Manufactured Automotive Control Computers for a number of years in the past, I am surprised, if not shocked to see "external wiring" unprotected from such a harsh environment.
(http://m.static.newsvine.com/servista/imagesizer?file=boyle17390D5D-A313-BBA2-2D4C-9773D98B5893.jpg&width=600)
From a design point of view, One would keep wiring internal or at least shielded in Conduit in such a harsh and unknown environment.
Well Matrix, believe it or not, I do agree with you on this point. I guess there is always a first time for everything! :))
Like you, my thinking is also work related, with a major defense contractor, involved with all sorts of stuff, including major aircraft modifications. The government is normally very finicky with its wiring requirements/specifications in most all design work. I absolutely cannot imagine all of these electrical wires, and electrical connections being left out in the open environment, more especially if this sucker was to be on another planet.
Everywhere you look, there is just stuff out in the open, on this Rover. In fact, this circumstance causes me to seriously wonder, or even doubt, that Curiosity is actually on Mars. With such 'shoddy" design on the electrical, one would think for any electrical maintenance support needed, a technician would have been anticipated to be just steps away!!! :o :o :o
rdunk I have to Agree with you on this too.
QuoteEverywhere you look, there is just stuff out in the open, on this Rover. In fact, this circumstance causes me to seriously wonder, or even doubt, that Curiosity is actually on Mars. With such 'shoddy" design on the electrical, one would think for any electrical maintenance support needed, a technician would have been anticipated to be just steps away!!!
I also suspect something is very, very, very wrong; In fact I too am being forced to;
as you put it, Quote;
Quotewonder, or even doubt, that Curiosity is actually on Mars.
too !
Gold 4 U...
Quote from: rdunk on November 15, 2012, 07:34:07 AM
Like you, my thinking is also work related, with a major defense contractor, involved with all sorts of stuff, including major aircraft modifications. The government is normally very finicky with its wiring requirements/specifications in most all design work. I absolutely cannot imagine all of these electrical wires, and electrical connections being left out in the open environment, more especially if this sucker was to be on another planet.
Everywhere you look, there is just stuff out in the open, on this Rover. In fact, this circumstance causes me to seriously wonder, or even doubt, that Curiosity is actually on Mars.
Considering average surface temps range anywhere from (86 °F) to (-225 °F) , I would think some sort of insulation would be called for.
WTF (http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy68/mikeybandb/smileys7.gif)
(http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy68/mikeybandb/PVC_Insulated_Cables_Wires.jpg)
Quote from: The Matrix Traveller on November 15, 2012, 07:02:05 AM
Just a matter of interest. Having Designed and Manufactured Automotive Control Computers for a number of years in the past, I am surprised, if not shocked to see "external wiring" unprotected from such a harsh environment.
(http://m.static.newsvine.com/servista/imagesizer?file=boyle17390D5D-A313-BBA2-2D4C-9773D98B5893.jpg&width=600)
From a design point of view, One would keep wiring internal or at least shielded in Conduit in such a harsh and unknown environment.
Now this is just a thought I just had when I read your post: what if the environment is neither harsh OR unknown?
Quote from: The Matrix Traveller on November 15, 2012, 07:02:05 AM
Just a matter of interest. Having Designed and Manufactured Automotive Control Computers for a number of years in the past, I am surprised, if not shocked to see "external wiring" unprotected from such a harsh environment.
What is the biggest "enemy" of external wiring in a case like this?
Quote from: ArMaP on November 15, 2012, 01:46:31 PM
What is the biggest "enemy" of external wiring in a case like this?
Lack of intelligence on the part of the designers.
If they displayed this level of intelligence in my Co. I wold relieve them from their duties.
Probably send them back to be educated again. :D
Quote from: The Matrix Traveller on November 15, 2012, 09:10:41 PM
Lack of intelligence on the part of the designers.
That may be the reason for them to be easily affected by the environment "enemies" that I thought you were talking about.
Now, could you please tell me what are the environment "enemies" of exposed wiring?
PS: do you know what kind of wiring they use in the rovers? Do they use something special or do they use a commercial product?
QuoteNow, could you please tell me what are the environment "enemies" of exposed wiring?
Well going by the wiring this style of grouping, (tying) this was used in the
1930's and also used in
early Computers and Electronics.
If the
NASA new the Environment they would not have the need to send a "
toy" to Mars now would they ? :D
So having to send this "toy", I guess they don't know much about Mars.
Hell Science knows very little about our own environment.. Judging by the Challenges we find ourselves facing today. :D
Now if Mars has a different make up than the Earth i.e. such things as the Magnetic field containing the Van Allen belts etc. missing or weaker,
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQE8rgqiOooOTZDqYyoSrJILyKRZeWLHtKtPWt4pPxyFYOUqkYmaw)
and the atmosphere being less dense than Earths etc. etc. I guess the Radiation levels may be different ?
So at least we would expect
ALL wiring to be at least internal just in case.
The
Housing of the "toy" giving
Shielding at least !
If wiring is to be external, Conduit or Shielded wiring would be used, just as we also use these methods in our harsh environment on Earth, (referring to the Computer or Electronics Industry)
In the Automotive Industry, we recognize that "Computer Systems", are in a Harsh Environment, subject to
Vibration, Weather, Dust, Moisture, Radiation (RF and other) and general oxidization, (corrosion) Ultraviolet Radiation etc. etc.
Mars being an unknown environment (
NOT knowing everything about Mars) design must try and take into account the
Unknown... ::) especially if Billions of $$$$ are involved. They would try and allow for ALL possibilities :D trying to make sure the Challenge would at least be successful. :D
Like I said
IF they knew all about Mars, they would have no need to send a "toy/s" there... :D
:)Does kinda look like zip ties on those bundles . So what is the thinking? is the rover on Mars in a unknown environment or is it in a known environment that doesn't need good wiring. Or is Mars not a rough place for rovers?. hmmmmmm :)
Quote from: ArMaP on November 15, 2012, 09:31:33 PM
Now, could you please tell me what are the environment "enemies" of exposed wiring?
Well zip ties in Las Vegas outdoors last a few months before they get brittle from the intense sun, mostly UV..
Since Mars has no or little ozone it would get a lot of UV light that is MURDER on plastic insulation as well., even though the sun is a little further away.
Thinner atmosphere and no ozone layer... compensates for distance :P
UNLESS Mars is not like they tell us :D
Quote from: zorgon on November 16, 2012, 12:51:29 AM
UNLESS Mars is not like they tell us :D
Or they use different materials.
So write NASA and ask them why they left them exposed like amateurs and what material they used
::)
I have to say, I am surprised how exposed the wires and other delicate looking components are on the rover. If I was designing it (I'm no engineer though) I would not want all of that exposed just in case. This is a strong looking argument.
I have to admit it is Strange to say the least... :o It defies common sense ! :o
Quote from: zorgon on November 16, 2012, 01:08:13 AM
So write NASA and ask them why they left them exposed like amateurs and what material they used
::)
They are probable laughing at us, the public right now Z. Sick joke by the NASA if you ask me.. o
Quote from: zorgon on November 16, 2012, 12:51:29 AM
UNLESS Mars is not like they tell us :D
Now you may be right there Z.. :o
Perhaps we need to dig a little deeper ? :D
Here is something that relates to some of our comments relative to Curiosity. The link I am providing is a "podcast-type" meeting today, Nov. 15, 2012, at JPL. It is called a "Mars Curiosity Rover News Telecon". And right near the beginning they say they are going to be discussing today "Environmental Conditions on the Surface of Mars".
They do make some presentations, and then do take questions, related to the environment conditions. I haven't listened to all of this yet, but in some cases, the answers seem to be a little like Obama's press conferences! :))
The broadcast is a little over one hour long, and they do address some of our thread questions about surface temps, and etc. INTERESTING. Still not sure if really there or not! :o
The broadcast I am referring to, is right at the top of this link page.
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/msl/building_curiosity.html
There is more exposed wiring on this baby than your family car, just begging for problems... :D
Or even in a Production area, especially Hazardous Areas.
(http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/502731main_pia13646-43_946-710.jpg)
Even Ribbon cable in the above photo ?
(http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/696014main_Roumeliotis-3pia16196-43_428-321.jpg)
(http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/696002main_Roumeliotis-2pia16195-43_428-321.jpg)
(http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/686470main_pia16160-43_428-321.jpg)
(http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/686459main_pia16161-43_428-321.jpg)
(http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/684578main_pia15699-43_428-321.jpg)
I guess the public just like to see wiring, as it makes it look more like Hi Tech... ;D
Wouldn't look quite the same, if it were covered up, now would it ?
I would have thought Reliability would demand the Highest Priority ?
The changing temperatures would also present the engineers with their worst nightmares, involving "thermal shock", Not to mention Electronic Instabilities and Calibration problems
esp. with Data Cables ! (energy Fluctuations being transmitted through Conductors to Electronic Components)
Vibration just from the vehicle running over a rough surfaces, and the operation of other "on board" accessories is also the Engineers worst nightmare.
Trust me know about these things involving the Automotive Industry and the problems in harsh operating conditions, regarded as Normal environment conditions on Earth. I suspect the Martian environment would offer up its own environmental problems ?
"Any Transport" provides One of the worst Environments for "Computer Systems", even on Earth let alone Mars !
If any dust or Corrosive Atmosphere got into any of the many "Servos" "Actuators", or "Solenoides", it would be all over Rover... :'(
And as for Flexing looms of this design, we have serious problems with insulation (Movement between Wires) and the Conductors themselves, unless all the wiring is Braided with a reinforcing of Silk or Synthetic fibers.
To tie the wiring together as shown in the photos, produces all sorts of Problems if Flexing esp. around turrets and robotic arms etc.
It's all Just a very expensive Joke !
Involving taxpayers $$$$$$$$$$
You all with the expertise in the engineering fields along with some good common sense really got my mind going now. I am not an engineer but have assembled some equipment commercially and for the air force. I have also operated some equipment in the Army (electronics) that was well protected from EMI, shock and the weather. This is in a known environment here on earth. That equipment was better protected than what I am seeing on Curiosity on the picture provided. Now my mind is in a whirl. I know the stuff I worked with was built to a MIL-SPEC and was protected better than what I see in the Curiosity photo. Makes a person go hmmmm. Raises a number of questions. Maybe I ought to e-mail NASA and see what kind of an answer I receive??????
If the Rover can communicate by RF back to the Earth, then Data gathering could easily be Wireless or by Fiber Optics.
In harsh conditions we avoid Electronic Solenoids, Actuators, etc. like the plague, and use either Pneumatics or Hydraulics.
Often we use Pneumatic or Hydraulic "Logic Modules", when the need arises.
But Data in this case, can be sent Via "Fiber Optics" or "Wireless" on the Rover itself.
Then transmitted back to Earth.
I sent an e-mail to NASA moments ago. I know it may take a while to get an answer but let's see what type of answer (if any) I receive.
Quote from: spacemaverick on November 16, 2012, 06:25:26 AM
I sent an e-mail to NASA moments ago. I know it may take a while to get an answer but let's see what type of answer (if any) I receive.
Good One... That might be a laugh ? Need some humor... :D
I Hope they do reply....
Tried looking on the net for wiring specs etc. but haven't found any in depth info yet.
Will keep looking from time to time unless anyone else has a link ?
Maybe we can ask this guy... :o
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/PIA15279_3rovers-stand_D2011_1215_D521-crop2-CuriosityRover.jpg)
Knot: The Oldest Space Technology(http://www.spacesafetymagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/knots_Curiosity.jpg)
QuoteAs noticed recently by some geeks around the International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum, not every space technology needs to be high tech. Some considerably ancient inventions play an irreplaceable role inside the most state-of-the art spacecraft. One example– Curiosity, the engineering marvel from NASA JPL –relies on clove hitches and reef knots to adjust the cables, harnesses and wiring. This fact, surprising to some, was revealed by the images of Curiosity's deck, which the rover has sent to Earth together with images of the Martian surface.
As discussed at the forum, there are many reasons why NASA sticks to this simple but efficient solution. First of all, you can hardly find a more thoroughly tested, proven, and reliable technology than a knot that has been used for several thousand years. Both of the most frequently used space knots – the Clove Hitch and the Reef Knot – have been known at least since the times of ancient Greece where they were described by the pioneering physician Heraklas as suitable for surgery and orthopedics. Very similar knots were reportedly depicted in the art of ancient Egyptians which dates 4000 to 5000 years back.
(http://www.spacesafetymagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/NASA_knots_manual.gif)
QuoteWhen compared to modern zipties, the knots and their combinations offer specific advantages. The zipties are prone to overtightening which can result in breakage of conductors, damage of insulation, chafing or deformations between the conductive, dielectric, and shielding parts of the cable. The rather modern zipties, unlike the ancient knots, offer only predefined levels of adjustment and cannot be easily loosened.
The usage and distribution of knots in NASA is subject to special written standards. As one of the forum participants concludes: "If human civilization ends tomorrow, interplanetary landers, orbiters, and deep space probes will preserve evidence of both the oldest and newest of human technologies for millions of years."
Knot: The Oldest Space Technology (http://www.spacesafetymagazine.com/2012/10/31/knot-oldest-space-technology/)
Here is an unlisted video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lecDARKUvE
Thanks for the Animation Z I always enjoy a good laugh, keeps one young in heart. :D
I'll stick with today's engineering practices, a little more reliable.... :D
Is anyone scouring the NASA pages for technical details about wiring and so on on Mars probes? If anyone has time then get on it. I have to do some reading about mundane arthropod venom genes.
(http://www.buzzle.com/img/articleImages/393971-17622-48.jpg)
http://engineer.jpl.nasa.gov/practices/1238.pdf
Here is a link to a PDF file regarding spacecraft electrical harness design from NASA.
http://eed.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/harness/harness.html#doc
http://code210.gsfc.nasa.gov/ETIS/HarnessCableFab.pdf
Here are two more links regarding space flight electrical harnesses.
Wiring longevity doesnt matter if its in a soundstage right next to the control room. If something busts loose, they can make a quick fix while the live feed is "down".
What to look for if there are problems is, any change in wiretie positioning or wire harness locations before and after repairs are done in secret. Check all the imagery and see if any harnesses or wiring in general has moved or become different in appearance.
Any difference in appearance on the rover between scenes, will prove theres been human hands upon it, and seeing how there are no repair shops on Mars..itll give the evidence necesary to know its all a sham.
You would make a good detective!
Quote from: spacemaverick on November 16, 2012, 07:16:52 PM
http://eed.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/harness/harness.html#doc
http://code210.gsfc.nasa.gov/ETIS/HarnessCableFab.pdf
Here are two more links regarding space flight electrical harnesses.
Thanks for the Links...
Nothing out of the ordinary re. these standards but still doesn't explain external wiring.
or referring to crossover around Robotic arm swivels and turrets etc.
But does
Not explain the affects of Contamination from the Mars environment.
So
ALL wiring Looms and Harnesses from now on, on
ALL aircraft, shall be mounted externally re. to new ISO650 standards manufacturing practice MCLX#-37834675-a/8439-b for greater reliability and , ease of Maintenance access, as well as providing more space, allowing for another 30 + passengers / flight.
Adopting these practices in Aircraft design, shall provide more Lift on aircraft, during sub sonic flying time, as in the case of Mig- fighters have their wing panels overlaid with the leading edges of panels raised to provide more lift.
Pilots shall be seated
externally, allowing for better vision of surrounding environment, of Large aircraft, also allowing another
7 Passengers per flight.
This would reduce Air fairs and cut costs in maintenance.
The same shall be adopted in All Rocket type vehicles allowing more space inside. Note all loomes and harnesses shall have new design HKLO/3r326ui9y75re/a Cable ties with re-engineered redundancy as these have been found to fail far sooner than others increasing turnover of the said product, increasing labor, reducing the population explosion, thus solving the global financial crisis ! :D
Quote from: Littleenki on November 16, 2012, 08:20:24 PM
Wiring longevity doesnt matter if its in a soundstage right next to the control room. If something busts loose, they can make a quick fix while the live feed is "down".
What to look for if there are problems is, any change in wiretie positioning or wire harness locations before and after repairs are done in secret. Check all the imagery and see if any harnesses or wiring in general has moved or become different in appearance.
Any difference in appearance on the rover between scenes, will prove theres been human hands upon it, and seeing how there are no repair shops on Mars..itll give the evidence necesary to know its all a sham.
I wonder if we can discover this Scenario ? Far out, if this is found then What ?
Found even more information regarding external wiring and external surfaces and materials.
http://descanso.jpl.nasa.gov/SciTechBook/series3/04Chapter3SCDesign.pdf
Pages 46 through 49 deal with external wiring. Still have not found anything dealing with the environment affect on the wiring externally.
Quote from: spacemaverick on November 16, 2012, 09:14:14 PM
Found even more information regarding external wiring and external surfaces and materials.
http://descanso.jpl.nasa.gov/SciTechBook/series3/04Chapter3SCDesign.pdf
Pages 46 through 49 deal with external wiring. Still have not found anything dealing with the environment affect on the wiring externally.
Thanks again for all your efforts...
QuoteStill have not found anything dealing with the environment affect on the wiring externally
Neither have I. Absolutely No discussion at all ! Very Strange. Perhaps it never came to mind ?
After some hours of searching last night, from a design and manufacturing perspective, what I see
in the Photos is shocking to say the very least.
Esp. when we have Wireless technology, often used today in the case of Wireless key boards,
Wireless Routers, Wireless Printers, Wireless headphones, Microphones, and the Wireless mouse etc.
Gets rid of unwanted Cables so the
external wiring around our desk is kept to a minimum !
We don't see external wiring all over our PC, Laptop, Mac, or ipod, phones, TV's etc. etc.
Rockets and Aircraft don't have External Harnesses or Looms. All is kept
inside the aircraft or Rocket.
Cars and other Transport keep most of their wiring inside as well.
I seriously wonder if their Standards comply with or meet ISO Standards of safety and Manufacture.
Does anyone have a reasonable explanation for why robots that operate outdoors in a potentially dusty and extreme, partly unknown, environment? I can hold up my hands and say that I don't.
Bizarre. It does reinforce the feeling that it is a big stage show.
If anyone can explain it, please do. Would you really build a vehicle with robotic arms to operate in a desert like environment like that?
Quote from: zorgon on November 16, 2012, 01:08:13 AM
So write NASA and ask them why they left them exposed like amateurs and what material they used
::)
Done. :)
I hope I am as lucky as in other occasions and that I get an answer. :)
Here's a link to a pdf file that gives some insight on the effects of solar radiation on different materials
here on earth.
http://www.gcrio.org/ozone/chapter7.pdf (http://www.gcrio.org/ozone/chapter7.pdf)
Quote from: mikeybandb on November 19, 2012, 10:22:18 AM
Here's a link to a pdf file that gives some insight on the effects of solar radiation on different materials
here on earth.
http://www.gcrio.org/ozone/chapter7.pdf (http://www.gcrio.org/ozone/chapter7.pdf)
Good read for others there mikeybandb...
This is generally known within Manufacturing, when using these materials.
Could have an
accelerated problem with this on Mars.
So very, very Strange why wiring is external and Not shielded (kept internally) out of this environment not to mention dust contamination around hydraulics, electric solenoids and actuators etc.. :o
We need to know far more, about the Mars environment, regarding Solar radiation and Cosmic radiation.
We also need to know more, about radiation regarding the natural terrain on Mars i.e. what radioactivity is present in natural terrain raw deposits etc.
What is the make up of Mars's Magnetic fields?
Is there an ozone layer (need O2 to be converted to O3) if there were, it would be very insignificant if in fact Ozone is present in its Atmosphere.
The energy in UV, is usually reduced through the Manufacture of Ozone in our upper atmosphere.
Ozone can't be "store" in the atmosphere ! It has to be manufactured on sight, in this case in 03 being produced predominantly through the exposure of O2 by U.V.
Some (little) is also produced through electrical discharge.
It is this natural process which reduces the energy levels of U.V. Radiation on the way to the Earth's surface.
(If polymers come in contact with Ozone depending on the levels above 15 pts/million, degradation of many polymers can become very rapid.
(Unwanted Ozone is also produced on the surface of the earth, through the impact of industrial practices.))
So I suspect the impact of U.V. on Mars could be at least the same as on Earth as Mars is further from the Sun, if not higher lacking protection from UV, so the insulation on wiring esp. involving degradation of polymers could, I suspect be a problem, as many materials contain oxides.
So why expose insulation of wiring unnecessarily ? Esp. to this harsh environment involving Radiation and dust ! :o
It involves
more construction to have wiring exposed in this way.
What is the affect of these harsh conditions, on "through panel Grommets" etc. to prevent chafing of wiring insulation and possible electrical short-outs.
The flexing of insulation (involving polymers) under these conditions, i.e around joints in robotics and turrets etc could also present a serious threat to their missions.
I found this page (http://workmanship.nasa.gov/lib/insp/2%20books/links/sections/401%20General%20Requirements.html) of "CABLE AND HARNESS GENERAL REQUIREMENTS".
It looks like that's an old site, replaced by the NASA Electronic Parts and Packaging (NEPP) Program (https://nepp.nasa.gov/index.cfm/5511).
I also found this (http://www.bus-ex.com/article/dunmore-protects-mars-rover-curiosity), so it looks like the wiring uses "DUNMORE Corporation's high-performance thin films".
I haven't got an answer to my email yet. :(
Re. http://www.bus-ex.com/article/dunmore-protects-mars-rover-curiosity
QuoteNASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory used a special reinforced tape created by DUNMORE to insulate all of the wiring inside the Mars rover. The insulating tape ensures the electrical currents from the rover's different systems don't interfere with each other and impede the rover's operation.
DUNMORE created the tape by combining DuPont™ Kapton® polyimide film with a 3M adhesive and fiberglass reinforcement layer. TheDUNMORE tape is the only multi-layer insulation (MLI) product on the Mars Rover.
Quoteensures the electrical currents from the rover's different systems don't interfere with each
Ah sounds like "Shielded" cable.
But the cable on the
Outside, appears to be non-shielded looking at the photos !
3M is an old and well established Company, who manufacture in their product range, adhesive tape with fiber reinforcing.
Have used Tons in the past, (no longer have records, re. weight) of these products in Manufacturing.
polyimide film...
http://www.3m.com/product/information/Polyimide-Film-Electrical-Tape.html
http://www.kaptontape.com/
Commonly used in Solenoid, actuators and transformer Manufacture etc. etc. nothing special. :D
And the "external" wiring ? (
Not mentioned)
Why have
External wiring in the first ? (built in "Product Redundancy" technology ? :D )
And just costs
more to manufacture !
But that probably doesn't matter when using Taxpayers $$$$$$ >:(
How many vehicles on Earth, TV's, Computers iphones, ipods and other electrical products are covered in
external wiring ?
We have advanced, to using
"Wireless" accessories today... :D
This is interesting...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1coV7XqE1M
Quote from: The Matrix Traveller on November 19, 2012, 10:59:02 PM
We have advanced, to using "Wireless" accessories today... :D
I don't trust wireless. :)
Also, could it be possible that wireless would be more likely to be affected by radiation?
Quote from: ArMaP on November 19, 2012, 10:00:53 PM
I found this page (http://workmanship.nasa.gov/lib/insp/2%20books/links/sections/401%20General%20Requirements.html) of "CABLE AND HARNESS GENERAL REQUIREMENTS".
It looks like that's an old site, replaced by the NASA Electronic Parts and Packaging (NEPP) Program (https://nepp.nasa.gov/index.cfm/5511).
I also found this (http://www.bus-ex.com/article/dunmore-protects-mars-rover-curiosity), so it looks like the wiring uses "DUNMORE Corporation's high-performance thin films".
I haven't got an answer to my email yet. :(
I also e-mailed them and have not received an answer.
Quote from: ArMaP on November 19, 2012, 11:42:37 PM
I don't trust wireless. :)
Also, could it be possible that wireless would be more likely to be affected by radiation?
Good point. This is why we need to know and understand more about the "environment" of Mars, and Not take anything for granted !
Here's a pdf from NASA on ENVIRONMENTAL FACTORS
http://engineer.jpl.nasa.gov/practices/1101.pdf (http://engineer.jpl.nasa.gov/practices/1101.pdf)
Quote from: ArMaP on November 19, 2012, 11:42:37 PM
I don't trust wireless. :)
Also, could it be possible that wireless would be more likely to be affected by radiation?
Right on ArMaP. You cant stop a signal in a hard wired system without breaking the wire or shielding...still though..why SO exposed?
Cheers!
Quote from: mikeybandb on November 19, 2012, 11:32:14 PM
This is interesting...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1coV7XqE1M
"Wind blown dust and dirt" :D is an Engineers worst nightmare around Solenoids, Actuators and any Hydraulics.
The problem is keeping foreign matter away from armatures, even with dust covers some fines always find there way through.
http://parker-solenoid-valves.solenoidvalvess.com/electric-actuators/
http://www.smcusa.com/news-events/transfer-loads-rapidly-with-low-profile-electric-actuator-slide.aspx
The other enemy of Synthetic or even rubber based "dust boots" is
UV.
Anyone know the Levels of
UV radiation on Mars, compared with that which reaches the surface of our Planet ?
Ozone and Rubber are the worst of enemies, (I have sold large "Ozone Generators" in the past used in Environmental applications) but I don't know
IF Ozone exists on Mars.
Does anyone know the levels of ground born Radiation and their source. Or incoming cosmic radiation ?
List of pdf files of standard NASA Practices...
http://engineer.jpl.nasa.gov/practices/ (http://engineer.jpl.nasa.gov/practices/)
Quote from: Littleenki on November 20, 2012, 12:14:24 AM
Right on ArMaP. You cant stop a signal in a hard wired system without breaking the wire or shielding...still though..why SO exposed?
Cheers!
Remember the wiring around "Robotic Arms" and "Turrets" etc. have to go through a huge amount of Flexing and often, if designed the way shown in the photos.
Comes down to basic design practices in the end.
And don't forget that
UV Radiation, it is a nightmare even on Earth, and we have an Ozone layer.
Quote from: mikeybandb on November 20, 2012, 12:26:33 AM
List of pdf files of standard NASA Practices...
http://engineer.jpl.nasa.gov/practices/ (http://engineer.jpl.nasa.gov/practices/)
Good find mikeybandb. Really appreciate your work and time. ;D
So now let's check these specs. against the design in the Photos... keeping in mind basic design criteria.
One reason I see for external wiring is that is always visible, so in case of a problem they can check to see if it's something wrong with the cables or not.
But that's just an idea. :)
Quote from: The Matrix Traveller on November 20, 2012, 12:31:58 AM
Good find mikeybandb. Really appreciate your work and time. ;D
So now let's check these specs. against the design in the Photos... keeping in mind basic design criteria.
;D
Quote from: ArMaP on November 20, 2012, 12:40:03 AM
One reason I see for external wiring is that is always visible, so in case of a problem they can check to see if it's something wrong with the cables or not.
But that's just an idea. :)
As I have Designed and Manufactured Automotive Control Computers in the past, (my own Co.)
I can tell you there will be "housekeeping" programs checking circuits, in their systems.
In our designs as well as other Companies, such programs are standard practices.
These often include "back up" systems, including hardware, if involved with such missions visiting other Planets etc. I suspect (If designed correctly?)
Perhaps "Fiber Optics" would provide a more reliable Data network, especially if shielded i.e. if all was installed Internally.
There are solid state junctions, involving Fiber Optics which can be used around elbows and turrets.
As for powering "Actuators" and "Solenoids" etc. some form of power transmission is required in our present Technology, but this should also be Shielded and kept internal. (inside Robotic arms etc.)
Computers are at present being developed using Optical networks from nano technologies, which will undoubtedly replace our methods used at present.