Does legitimate popular support for the European Union exist?

[petrus4]

I've honestly seen very few indications, that anywhere close to a majority of the European population, genuinely desire the EU's existence; or that it serves the interests of anyone other than the people who govern it.  I've also yet to hear about a single member country which has experienced truly good governance while part of the EU, or has had leadership which seems to even remotely care about the people.

I've tried looking online for evidence that the EU is a positive thing.  All I've found is propaganda and vague, pseudo-Utopian useful idiocy about unity, peace, and international co-operation.  In reality, the European Union appears to a campaign of tyrannical resource extraction which exclusively benefits the organisation's rulers, and employs riot police to oppress the populations of its' member states, when they attempt to either hold referenda to leave the EU, or otherwise protest their treatment by it.

I know we have a couple of people here who live in Europe; so let me ask you.  Is the EU genuinely desirable, or is it simply the test case for Rockefeller's involuntary world government that I suspect it to be?

[fansongecho]

Hi petrus4, I think that most sheeple in the EU could not give you or I a coherent endorsement on the EU benefits to its citizens, I can give you two examples of what it didn't do that affected A: the whole of the EU BUT not the UK, when they adopted the Euro, I know that I have colleagues in Holland, Germany and Italy that said their normal weekly shopping spend went up for the same like for like items.

And B:, the EU threw the Greek's under the bus when it came to them extorting massive loan repayments from the Greeks back 3 years or so ago, I watched that and though then, so much for helping and supporting our poorer relations - it made my blood boil, and I have friends over there that tell me a lot of people suffered but it want covered on MSN *shock) - as ever its always the poor and old that get hammered -

Going back to the abortion that is Brexit - if you can be bothered to follow it Petrus, you may have noticed that the UK Govt got caught this week with a so called scandal of lying to Parliament on Wednesday? - as I have said on here a few times, there is a massive call for a second referendum, and the deal that May has struck with the EU is about as positive for the UK as a wet lettuce in the face, so the remain camp now have greater power to block the passing of the bill that May will be proposing, and that leaves us with a NO DEAL Brexit divorce, which will then in my humble opinion cause a vote of no confidence in May, she will be ousted, a new PM who is PRO remain will be installed, a new referendum will be posited and voted thru and then a 2nd referendum will be put out to the public, and we will remain - and the 17.5 million who wanted our sovereignty back will just have to suck it up - that I think is the end game buddy.

Moving on to the riots that we have seen very little of in the UK, the France ones we were told where about higher fuel taxes.. I smell cow manure all over that one - and the German riots we have seen no coverage at all, do any of you folks know about the German riots ?   

Cheers and have a great weekend, when it comes to your time zone  / hemisphere 

Fans'

[robomont]

as a texan,i heard nothing of german riots ,only the french ones and thats only because of glp and lop,i dont have regular broadcast tv but word is ,regular broadcast isnt saying anything about france.

as for euro etc.,look at this way,you got two main choices on your plate,ally with usa and have the atlantic fish and oil protected  or merge with russia and end up in a china style fight with usa over atlantic resources.
from my point of view,the atlantic ocean is the crux of our dealings.
in a depleted resource world,mega countries are coming and its damn hard to protect yall from your neighbors.thank goodness putin isnt a megalomaniac,or yall would be russians by now.europes only resources are high tech and wine.on the big scale.odds are russia doesnt want to adopt a bunch of muzzies in exchange for wine and cheese.lol!

from a logistics point of view,allying with russia makes sense though.transporting by road and pipeline is way easier than shipping.
but if you do.it will restrict tech and fuel from usa,plus get use to drinking vodka!
plus forget about paid hollidays.i dont think russia cares if you starve.russia has enough resources to take care of its own and yall would just be dead weight to them.
i have no real skin in the game nor can i say this is a common thought or opinion of average americans.just a crazy guy hidden off in the woods of east texas.

[ArMaP]

I've honestly seen very few indications, that anywhere close to a majority of the European population, genuinely desire the EU's existence;

I've never made a poll, but most people I know are, at least, not against it.

or that it serves the interests of anyone other than the people who govern it.

It does, specially that part about free transit of people and goods. Europe is made up mostly of small countries, so being able to cross several of them while moving through the EU without any border controls is a big help for the small business and general population's movements.

I've also yet to hear about a single member country which has experienced truly good governance while part of the EU, or has had leadership which seems to even remotely care about the people.

Have you ever heard about a single country that has experienced truly good governance?

I've tried looking online for evidence that the EU is a positive thing.  All I've found is propaganda and vague, pseudo-Utopian useful idiocy about unity, peace, and international co-operation.

Maybe you considered real opinions as propaganda, and what you call "vague, pseudo-Utopian useful idiocy about unity, peace, and international co-operation" looks different when seen by someone from an European (mainland) country. Europe has been torn by wars for many centuries, in many cases with people from different countries but from the same families facing against each other under opposite sides. War is only good for those that do not enter it but sell goods and equipment, sometimes to both sides, so after WW2 there was a genuine intention of getting rid of all those wars that killed millions across Europe.

In reality, the European Union appears to a campaign of tyrannical resource extraction which exclusively benefits the organisation's rulers, and employs riot police to oppress the populations of its' member states, when they attempt to either hold referenda to leave the EU, or otherwise protest their treatment by it.

There's no EU riot police, each country has their own police, under the orders of their own governments, and I have never seen any police action that looked like support of EU policies and not government policies, like in any other country.

I know we have a couple of people here who live in Europe; so let me ask you.  Is the EU genuinely desirable, or is it simply the test case for Rockefeller's involuntary world government that I suspect it to be?

Desirability is relative, but it does have many good things, people tend to focus only on the negative.

For example, many people are against the Euro, but it really brought a very stable currency to countries like Portugal, who had a week currency. For example, since I was diagnosed with diabetes some (4?) years ago I started buying frozen broccoli to add to my meals, and since then the price has remained the same, like for most food products. Before that it was normal for prices to go up every six months or so.

Another good thing was the courses subsidized by the EU to help poorer countries getting a more skilled work force. I took part in two of those (one for industrial electronics and automation and another a generic computer related course), and while there was some people from the organisations that gave the courses that profited in shady ways from those courses (like people that kept the money that was to be given to the attendants and paid only at the end of the course instead of monthly (yes, we got paid to learn, and in some cases the pay was very good)) in most cases they worked as intended, with many people that were not able to enter in an university getting a good professionally oriented course, in some cases better than university.

Besides that, the EU has continuous programs to support culture and new technologies, people just need to look for them and apply to try to get a grant.

As you can see, I think the EU is mostly a positive thing.

[ArMaP]

Moving on to the riots that we have seen very little of in the UK, the France ones we were told where about higher fuel taxes.. I smell cow manure all over that one - and the German riots we have seen no coverage at all, do any of you folks know about the German riots ?   

I saw the news about the higher fuel taxes before the riots, it looked like a normal (for the French) response.

As for the German riots, what riots are you talking about?

[fansongecho]

My question was, had anyone seen news of riots in Germany for this month -

https://legalinsurrection.com/2018/12/whats-behind-frances-latest-round-of-riots/

"snip"
Rioting has been taking place recently in France, but trying to get a clear idea of what's behind the demonstrations isn't easy.

The first thing to say is that the riots certainly seem to be anti-Macron. But there are plenty of reasons to be anti-Macron, some emanating from the left and some from the right or from some other impulse or belief system.

The MSM so far seems to be labeling the riots as "anti-elitist," and saying that they began with people angry at a fuel tax increase. The Macron administration has announced that the controversial fuel tax hike will be postponed for six months, with Prime Minister Philippe stating that "No tax is worth threatening the unity of the nation."

I don't have my finger on the pulse of France, but I would venture to say that the "unity of the nation" is threatened by more than just this tax, and a delay will not change that fact.

I also think that the French want to have their cake and eat it too. In this respect they are hardly unique; it's a common human desire, and welfare states give people the illusion of being able to accomplish it—for a while, that is, until (as Margaret Thatcher remarked about socialism) they run out of other people's money.


This article purports to get to the bottom of things, but I don't think it sheds all that much light on more than the surface:

The protests were initially described as a largely working-class, grass roots movement with many among the demonstrators saying their livelihoods will be threatened by higher fuel prices.

However, the protests have now morphed into wider discontent at the high cost of living in France and dissatisfaction with Macron, whose popularity continues to fall. A poll by Kantar Public in late October showed that 71 percent of 1,000 respondents in the poll had no confidence in Macron.

The higher fuel prices were "part of the government's proposed carbon tax designed to improve its environmental credentials" with the Greens, prior to the next elections. But many demonstrators feel it's a hardship that will hurt those who are already struggling (unemployment is around 10% in France).

The unrest could spread:
The French protests seem to be inspiring others in Europe with copycat riots in Belgium this weekend. Famke Krumbmuller, partner and head of political risk at OpenCitiz, told CNBC that the disgruntlement of protesters in France could be felt elsewhere in Europe.
"I guess what's specific to this movement is that it is relatively apolitical, so they (the protesters) are not from just one party on the left or right. They're white, middle-class people that are squeezed by the welfare state. They pay a lot of taxes but they don't get a lot of benefits in return," she told CNBC's Julianna Tatelbaum in Paris.

Although I don't generally trust the NY Times' take on things, sometimes they write straight news and do it well. This Times article on the French riots describes something that sounds a bit like a protest from a group of people that in this country would be called the Trump voters.

I also turned to a blogger who lives in France and writes:

There is nary a single media report about the Yellow Vest demonstrations in Paris and France that I've read or watched that has not been slanted by Fake News.

It has (usually) not been deliberate, I gather, and nobody has said anything factually wrong; what is the problem is the fact that (very) important stuff has been omitted.
Fancy that.

It is not wrong to say that the demonstrations were caused by the government's decision to raise gas prices. What is missing is that this is just one of several draconian measures dating back half a year, i.e., 'tis the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

For the past four to five months, the French government has done nothing but double down on bringing more and more gratuitous oppression and more and more unwarranted persecution measures down on the necks the nation's drivers and motorcycle riders.

In fact, the imposition of ever harsher rules has been going on for the past decade and a half or so — whether the government was on the right or on the left .../...

And this is interesting, as well—student rioting that seems to be piggy-backing on the other riots but as far as I can tell has different motivations:

At the moment, all high school students who pass their final exams have the right to study any course at their local public university, for a nominal tuition fee.

This has led to some popular courses being oversubscribed and some 60 per cent of French university students do not finish their first year.

President Macron's government wants universities to be able to apply admissions criteria and select students on merits such as exam results or entrance exams for some oversubscribed degrees.

So the students appear to be rioting against the imposition of some form of merit system in a situation in which taking all comers has overburdened the resources available. I suppose you could call that "anti-elitist" as well, but it's an anti-elitism that seems to be coming from the left, whereas the other rioters seem (accent on the word "seem") to be coming more from the right.

Meanwhile, the so-called "far right" in Spain has made gains in recent elections. What does this far-right party advocate? Well, here's one description:

A far-right party won seats in a Spanish regional parliament for the first time since the country returned to democracy following the death of dictator Francisco Franco in 1975.
Vox, which opposes illegal immigration and Catalan independence, won 12 seats in the Andalusia parliamentary elections, bringing an end to three decades of socialist rule in the southern Spanish region.

Vox did better than predicted.
"The Andalusians have made history... and got rid of 36 years of socialist rule," Vox leader Santiago Abascal said...

Spain's Socialist Workers' Party suffered their worst result in history, picking up 33 seats, while its potential left-wing ally Adelante Andalusia (Forward Andalusia) won 17 seats...

Next year Spain will have municipal, regional and European elections which could be an even tougher test for the ruling Socialists.
Indeed.
[Neo is a writer with degrees in law and family therapy, who blogs at the new neo.]
"SNIP"


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/france-yellow-vest-protests-350-arrested-as-riot-police-clash-with-protesters-after-demos-quickly-turn-violent/ar-BBQFbbr?ocid=spartanntp

Cheers !

Fans'

[robomont]

we have a similar situation in usa on the university thing.
ill try to give a break down.first off colleges are a scam.
my english class wanted us to do the impossible.read war and peace in a week,then test on it.
we had a whole semester of these impossibilities.thats why i accuse the college classes of being psychological filters.english being the second agenda.some or most of the literature was very dark also.lots of death and suffering.

then once you get degree,the jobs arent there and you end up settling for some out of discipline job.like aircraft engineer becoming water and sewer manager.

then along came the turning point in gov where everybody gets a job.just raise taxes more!
this has been going on for some time now and alot of what look like private corps are getting gov money via grants etc.just to keep useless eaters at jobs.

then theres the freemason agenda.you hit a glass ceiling unless you are a player.they wont tell you this but after 40 years of work history for me,its obvious.i know who the freemasons are.i see the good ol boy gang.
so all that feelgood bs of im gonna be a star is just that.in reality we are nothing but cogs in a wheel and you aint famous unless they want you famous.you aint gonna be rich unless they want you rich.elon musk is proof of that.

so msm keeps promoting the feel good lie then we feel betrayed when we find out the truth.
since most are unaware that msm is controlled by military trained censors the populace turns its anger in the wrong direction.if the local and state news agencies were drawn and quartered,it wouldnt take long for the message to sink in.the msm is the dagger,but the msm puts the blame on others.every decision we as a whole make is decided on information.well the old saying,trash in trash out is the truth and the information stream is full of trash.so the average persons decisions are faulty.msm is the enemy.the main enemy,the worst enemy.

the movie natural born killers tries to explain this and the average person just sees woody harrelson as a mass murderer. when in reality,he is the hero of the movie.the lone man who sees the truth and acts upon his knowledge,while hollywood makes him out to be the devil.

so i hope i havent broken your spirit fans,it is not my goal.my goal is only to clarify the fog around us.remove the trash from your mind.

the main players of your msm are at rammstein.they create the problem,
they create the reaction.
they create the solution.
we are spoon fed the whole show to keep the sheep in line.organized little think nothing bots.government will save you from the debil.

[fansongecho]

@remount, thanks for that great insight into life over that side of the water, and I totally get the whole Freemason thing, it is rife on this side as well bud, the Police are by far the worst and so transparent.

It only took 40 years or so for me to really start seeing the bigger picture, and that in part is down to a more Internet connected world, hence why I like this forum so much and why I ask so many question on here - I like to hear back from the members who are scattered across the planet on what really is happening out there.

So going back to end game of the New World Order, was there any truth that "they" were moving to a United Americas with a new money system (like the Euro) but it got canned when The Donald won the election or was it just rumours ?

And touching on University education and opportunities when folks graduate, in the UK I know Guys and Gals with Degrees in Engineering who are flipping burgers at the Golden Arches .. as a friend said this weekend, there are so many University's in the UK now that a Degree is now almost worthless -

Going back on to Petrus original question, the UK is hugely divided on the Brexit and EU question I know of families so split by the vote that they barely speak with each other - and what ever happens with the Brexit plan I doubt if the UK will ever get over the rift - which is of course a great example of the powers that be working their Divide and Conquer playbook.

Cheers buddy!

Fans' 

[ArMaP]

My question was, had anyone seen news of riots in Germany for this month -

No, I have heard nothing about riots in Germany.

[robomont]

the gov wont admit it but its obvious.what are the best logistics for goods?
land.thus the most efficient operating system will be roads.thats why thr new nafta agreement versus calling out china on trade issues.
keeping eurasia in chaos benefits americas.
if we lose our sea superiority due to climate chaos then land is the next most secure position.the old era, fighting for resources of oil and rare earths is over.its now about efficiency in natural resources.if usa has to compete with eurasia then it must create a coalition of its own.

[The Seeker]

Fans, the university system here in the US has degenerated into a joke, primarily run by the liberal left and is flooding the jobs market with people with useless degrees, doing as they do in the UK, working at Burger King shoveling burgers because there is no call for their degreed speciality

I left college 2 quarters short of getting my degree as a mechanical engineer back in the mid 70's for it was readily apparent even then that there were far more job opportunities and pay for diversified, non-speciality skilled workers that were willing to learn many different skill sets, just most then and now are not willing to walk that path...

after 42 years my official job title was that of millwright, with a list of ratings and qualifications that took me all of those 42 years to earn

these kids for the last 30 years aren't willing to work that hard, thanks to the indoctrination they receive in school telling them that they don't have to work hard, don't have to excel or give their best, that it is OK to be mediocre, and if they flop they will be taken care of and provided for

Bullshit 

No, no word about riots in Deutschland

[space otter]

Fans
earlier in the week i did see a reference to french and german riots but i don't think i read it..
but a quick search of google using german riots came up with a  lot

Merkel condemns xenophobic riots after killing of German man | World ...
https://www.theguardian.com/.../germany-xenophobic-riots-chemnitz-far-right-pegida
Aug 27, 2018 - The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, has condemned two days of far-right street violence that has left several people injured, which flared ...

Rioting in Germany Exposes the Growing Power of the Far Right | The ...
https://www.thenation.com/.../rioting-in-germany-exposes-the-growing-power-of-the-...
Sep 7, 2018 - After rioting in the eastern-German city of Chemnitz on August 26 and 27 by neo-Nazis and other forces of the extreme right, many observers ...

Videos
all from the guardian  dated aug 28 , aug 31  and yeterday

here's the one from yesterday





Riots - The Local Germany
https://www.thelocal.de/tag/riots
Saxony's Minister President Michael Kretschmer on Wednesday defended the work of the police during riots in Chemnitz and acknowledged they were ..


more vids and more links.. so i guess it depends on what and where you read

[fansongecho]

@Space Otter, cheers my lovely, thanks for info    I did have a look at the August rioting that was reported and had a look at Der Spiegal English edition but it and RT didn't turn up anything about riots in Nov or Dec so I must have miss-heard it from some media source..  a senior moment 

@Seeker, the kids and young adults over in the UK are just "so entitled" to having a great job/career, and cant get their tiny little heads around the stark fact that they will have to go out and work very hard to achieve any of their dreams or goals, and the amount of trash TV celebrating the Kardashians, The Real Housewives of XXXXXXX and other reality programs that are indoctrinating them is out of control -

Helen my partner youngest daughter is literally addicted to these programs and taking selfies, when she comes home from UNI I often hide her phone, and then stand back and enjoy the inevitable Meltdown that follows    she warned me last time I did it that she was going to report me to Police (semi-joking, I think)


Cheers !

Fans' 

[space otter]

looks like msn  is reporting from  the new york times

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/tear-gas-still-lingering-france%E2%80%99s-president-to-address-the-nation/ar-BBQJAmA?li=BBnb7Kz

The New York Times
Tear Gas Still Lingering, France's President to Address the Nation
By ALISSA J. RUBIN  1 hr ago

1/50 SLIDES © Lucas Barioulet/AFP/Getty Images
Protesters fury over high fuel prices have taken to the streets of France since Nov. 17, forming roadblocks across the country. So far, over 400 people have been injured, including one fatality.

(Pictured) Demonstrators destroy cars near the Champs Elysees in Paris, on Dec. 1.

Slideshow by photo services

PARIS — With the smell of tear gas and smoke still lingering in Paris and other cities after a fourth weekend of protests, France's president planned a nationwide address on Monday to respond to the anger among many middle-class and working-poor citizens frustrated over their declining economic means.

The televised speech by President Emmanuel Macron, announced by the Élysée Palace on Sunday, will be his first substantive public answer to the so-called Yellow Vest movement that has transfixed France and spilled into other countries in Europe.

Mr. Macron has been conferring with advisers and ministers and will meet with a wider group on Monday, including local elected officials, members of Parliament and union representatives, to discuss proposals aimed at addressing at least some of the movement's demands.

"Clearly we have underestimated the need of our fellow citizens to speak up about the difficulties they face and to be involved in the formulation of solutions," Benjamin Griveaux, a government spokesman, said in an interview Sunday on Europe 1 Radio.

"The solutions that we need to find must take into consideration each person's reality — it's almost like tailored to fit," he said. "The anger that is being expressed is sometimes very different from one area to another."

The Yellow Vests take their name from the fluorescent hazard vests adopted by the protesters as a sign of their economic distress.

The challenges Mr. Macron will face in speaking to his fellow citizens are considerable.

He must connect with the many who feel abandoned and make clear not only that he understands their anger but also that he is prepared to listen to their ideas and take action, analysts said.

At the same time, he must project strong resolve against the destruction of private property to preserve the allegiance of the small-business owners who have seen their shops vandalized or who have been forced to close on successive Saturdays. Mr. Macron must also stand with the many French who have been outraged by the desecration of national monuments, or who have seen their cars burned or other property destroyed.

With fires lit by protesters still smoldering in some of France's largest cities on Sunday, local officials and small businesses voiced their dismay over the vandalism and lost business during the usually busy Christmas season.

Although the authorities released numbers suggesting that the protests on Saturday were smaller than those on earlier weekends, the final total showed that there was no difference between those on Saturday and those a week earlier, suggesting they were not abating.

1/3 SLIDES © Chris McGrath/Getty Images
Police officers took a more aggressive stance toward the protests this weekend. On Saturday, they chased demonstrators down the Champs-Élysées.
The mayor of Bordeaux, Alain Juppé, who has been generally supportive of Mr. Macron, summed up the messages he hoped the president would send on Monday as he walked through his city. Fires burned there for several hours on Saturday as violent confrontations between the police and the Yellow Vests punctuated the protests.
Mr. Macron needs to "speak to the French people and speak quickly," said Mr. Juppé. The president, he said, needs "to respond concretely to certain legitimate expectations" with "understanding, empathy."

But Mr. Juppé said Mr. Macron also had to project firmness and speak with "authority" about the need to maintain order and stop the vandals.

Mr. Macron's address will be the first time in about 10 days that he has said anything beyond a short statement at a news conference in Buenos Aires at the end of the G-20 meeting.

That statement came just a few hours after attacks on the Arc de Triomphe by Yellow Vests and vandals, known as "casseurs." They defaced it with graffiti and broke into its museum. Then they smashed shop windows on a nearby avenue, stealing goods and destroying bank machines.

This past weekend's violence was notable both for its spread to a couple of neighborhoods of Paris that had been less affected in past weeks and by unprecedented violence in Bordeaux, where protesters and casseurs set multiple street fires and besieged one of its oldest shopping streets.

If the Yellow Vests movement's ability to bring business to a halt appears unchanged, so does its standing with the public nationwide. Although relatively small numbers of people go into the streets — France has a population of 67 million and the most that have turned out to protest is less than 300,000 — support for their grievances remains at about 70 percent, despite the violence and destruction of property, according to several different polls.

The movement's persistence suggests that despite the government's announcement that it would drop a planned increase in the fuel tax in 2019 and delay an increase in the cost of home heating until after the winter, the protesters and those who support them may not be appeased without a deeper look at the distribution of wealth in France.

The main difference between the protests this weekend and those on the last one was an increase in the police presence and a more aggressive strategy by the authorities. That meant there were many more arrests, some even before the demonstrations began. Nearly 2,000 people were taken into custody nationwide, almost three times as many as on Dec. 1, when 682 were arrested.

The numbers of injured this past Saturday were fewer than on Dec. 1. A total of 325 people were hurt, including police officers, compared with a total of 485 the preceding week, according to revised figures from the Interior Ministry.

[The Seeker]

@Seeker, the kids and young adults over in the UK are just "so entitled" to having a great job/career, and cant get their tiny little heads around the stark fact that they will have to go out and work very hard to achieve any of their dreams or goals, and the amount of trash TV celebrating the Kardashians, The Real Housewives of XXXXXXX and other reality programs that are indoctrinating them is out of control -

the tube is a great brainwashing tool for the left

Helen my partner youngest daughter is literally addicted to these programs and taking selfies, when she comes home from UNI I often hide her phone, and then stand back and enjoy the inevitable Meltdown that follows    she warned me last time I did it that she was going to report me to Police (semi-joking, I think)

I would tell her to go ahead and make that call, since the next call she made would be difficult to do after I shoved the phone so far up her butt she would have to stick her finger in her nose to dial it 


Seeker