The Z Book - Discussion of Entries

[Amaterasu]

Here is where We can discuss the articles and ideas presented in the "The Z Book - Post Articles Here for a Book" thread here:  http://www.thelivingmoon.com/forum/index.php?topic=1330.msg14659

[Amaterasu]

Ok.  Since no One else went first, I put My End of Entropy piece in there.  Come on, guys...  Surely there are some things You have written that might compile to a good book...

[undo11]

Power over others supplanted by power over self

see now that's the problem.  the ones who have power in many cases, are those who have proven to have power over themselves and therefore are given authority to have power over those who don't have power over themselves.  this is not only the natural flow of things, it's based on psychology, medicine, wisdom teachings, religions, and just plain, good old, common sense.

the issue i see with current incarnation is, that there's only so much room at the top for those who can exercise power over themselves, and so new applicants for personal freedom are given an endless chain of new things they must do to prove they're worthy of having power over others.

BUT HERE'S THE CLINCHER:  by power over others, they mean, allowing you to have power over yourself.  it's an endless conundrum.  you can say all day that they have no power over you and you can prove you have power over yourself, repeatedly, till you die, but they will not relinquish their vice grip on you because you haven't proven enough, and as with skepticism, the "enough" bar just keeps moving into an infinitely receeding horizon.

[Amaterasu]

see now that's the problem.  the ones who have power in many cases, are those who have proven to have power over themselves and therefore are given authority to have power over those who don't have power over themselves.  this is not only the natural flow of things, it's based on psychology, medicine, wisdom teachings, religions, and just plain, good old, common sense.

the issue i see with current incarnation is, that there's only so much room at the top for those who can exercise power over themselves, and so new applicants for personal freedom are given an endless chain of new things they must do to prove they're worthy of having power over others.  BUT HERE'S THE CLINCHER:  by power over others, they mean, allowing you to have power over yourself.  it's an endless conundrum.  you can say all day that they have no power over you and you can prove ou have power over yourself, repeatedly, till you die, but they will not relinquish they're vice grip on you because you haven't proven enough, and as with skepticism, the bar just keeps moving into an infinitely receeding horizon.

You are perfectly welcome to abdicate Your power to whomever You want in abundance.  But the point is, no One HAS to.  Nor ALL THE TIME.

Where's "the top?"  Consider today's pyramid structure.  The abundance paradigm is like an INVERTED pyramid.  Virtually no One at the BOTTOM (and only there by choice) with most sitting at the top.

This is the sacred female juxtaposing the sacred male...

[undo11]

You are perfectly welcome to abdicate Your power to whomever You want in abundance.  But the point is, no One HAS to.  Nor ALL THE TIME.

Where's "the top?"  Consider today's pyramid structure.  The abundance paradigm is like an INVERTED pyramid.  Virtually no One at the BOTTOM (and only there by choice) with most sitting at the top.

This is the sacred female juxtaposing the sacred male...

no no, you don't get it!  it isn't abdicating power to someone else.
what i'm telling you is YOU CAN'T have personal freedom no matter how many times you prove you have power over yourself, because power over yourself is being redefined constantly by those who already have power over you.   you can't change that because it's the natural 
condition to have those capable to do a thing, to do that thing. but once the management is chosen,  they don't let anyone else in the door. and this has been true through out human history, and has never changed, whether male, female, or extra-terrestrial.  it's just the way of things.  one of the reasons why the masons and rosicrucians founded the usa was to break away from that stranglehold, but as it is a natural condition, it's very hard to resist it for long.

just look around

[Amaterasu]

no no, you don't get it!  it isn't abdicating power to someone else.
what i'm telling you is YOU CAN'T have personal freedom no matter how many times you prove you have power over yourself, because power over yourself is being redefined constantly by those who already have power over you.   you can't change that because it's the natural 
condition to have those capable to do a thing, to do that thing. but once the management is chosen,  they don't let anyone else in the door. and this has been true through out human history, and has never changed, whether male, female, or extra-terrestrial.  it's just the way of things.  one of the reasons why the masons and rosicrucians founded the usa was to break away from that stranglehold, but as it is a natural condition, it's very hard to resist it for long.

just look around

But if there is no One who has power over You then what?  In stigmergic governance, there is no permanent, "chosen" leaders.  Leaders of the moment emerge and Others will willingly give Their power over to the emergent leader for the duration of any given project.  What You describe is the "way of things" in energy scarcity, with governMENT, in a world where Human energy is required for basic necessities, where Some lord it over Others on a money/energy basis, where One HAS to find a career or at least work or the dole to survive.

The abundance paradigm is terra incognita for the Human race.  It is where only REAL problems are solved, where no One is in a position to create problems on a large scale so as to herd the reaction to a preferred solution.  Where the BEST solutions are found and implemented because there is no profit motivation to find the cheapest solutions (like paying fines instead of cleaning up pollution), where We are all socially equal, where status is earned through betterment efforts.

Rather than speak in these generalities, can You give Me a specific situation to illustrate this problem You're seeing?

[undo11]

alrighty then. i've probably gotten addicted to and given up more vices than most people will see or do in their own lifetimes. not because they can't give them up.  not because they can't be addicted to things. and not because they haven't seen people (including themselves) addicted to one thing or another.  but because i have literally gotten addicted to and given up a wide variety of things. lol 

but i still have that one nagging thing and because of that one nagging thing, people who don't like that one nagging thing, can remind me on a regular basis, about how that one nagging thing is holding me back from having personal freedom.  they could be doing any number of things i've already given up, or even had those problems themselves at one time, individually, but none of that matters, because i have this one thing i haven't given up. 

it's been blown so completely out of proportion that it's now the rationale behind harrassment of a magnitude you would not believe.  i mean SEVERE harrassment. the cure is so much worse than the actual problem that i can only surmise the idea is to drive me insane before i manage to get rid of that last inkly thing, so that i won't be able to uncover the entire thing, because if i did, they'd have to convince people that a whole new "problem" needs to be manufactured so that once again, i still have no personal freedom, not because i say so, cause far as i'm concerned, that bad boy was done a long time ago.

[Amaterasu]

Well, based on other things You have said, I'm going to guess We're speaking of something that starts with a "T" and ends with a "cco."

I'm not sure how You are relating this to personal freedom in the abundance paradigm.  If You choose to use a substance - or go through ibogaine (sp?) therapy - that would be Your choice.  You would have access to any treatment out there, unlike now where You might not be able to afford it, or the treatment is "illegal" because it threatens someOne's profit, or whatever is keeping the treatment from You now.

But from what You were saying, You made it sound as if it was an issue of some PEOPLE having some control somehow...  And it was an example of THAT I was hoping for.

[undo11]

Well, based on other things You have said, I'm going to guess We're speaking of something that starts with a "T" and ends with a "cco."

I'm not sure how You are relating this to personal freedom in the abundance paradigm.  If You choose to use a substance - or go through ibogaine (sp?) therapy - that would be Your choice.  You would have access to any treatment out there, unlike now where You might not be able to afford it, or the treatment is "illegal" because it threatens someOne's profit, or whatever is keeping the treatment from You now.

But from what You were saying, You made it sound as if it was an issue of some PEOPLE having some control somehow...  And it was an example of THAT I was hoping for.

it's an example of how it gravitates to people who "have personal freedom" barring other people from having it by claiming they aren't displaying signs of being capable of personal freedom because of xyz and the list being somewhat endless (unless you happen to be one of their friends and they are without scruples).

in a way, it's  sorta like how parole officers and child protection services have to decide if prisoners or "negligent" parents are safe to let near other people/their own children, etc.    if they like you, they might let you have some personal freedom, if they don't like you, they might make you jump thru hoops and then tell you no, anyway.  at least, that's been my experience so far (not that i've been in a real prison (more like a "it takes a village" prison, which can kiss my ass sideways) nor have i been a negligent parent, it just an example how people who make decisions, must usurp other people's decisions to do so. reality, in other words).  i can only surmise, as said before, that once some people have personal freedom, they don't want anyone else to have it. you understand this is what we've been griping about all along and that this is a natural state that people gravitate to and that it will take something supernatural, for that to change.

[Amaterasu]

it's an example of how it gravitates to people who "have personal freedom" barring other people from having it by claiming they aren't displaying signs of being capable of personal freedom because of xyz and the list being somewhat endless (unless you happen to be one of their friends and they are without scruples).

in a way, it's  sorta like how parole officers and child protection services have to decide if prisoners or "negligent" parents are safe to let near other people/their own children, etc.    if they like you, they might let you have some personal freedom, if they don't like you, they might make you jump thru hoops and then tell you no, anyway.  at least, that's been my experience so far (not that i've been in a real prison (more like a "it takes a village" prison, which can kiss my ass sideways) nor have i been a negligent parent, it just an example how people who make decisions, must usurp other people's decisions to do so. reality, in other words).  i can only surmise, as said before, that once some people have personal freedom, they don't want anyone else to have it. you understand this is what we've been griping about all along and that this is a natural state that people gravitate to and that it will take something supernatural, for that to change.

I still am not seeing where You're going with this, Beth.  How is this related to a world with three Laws?  Where You can sleep in till You want to get up, and then eat what You want - all organic and wholesome - and then do what You want throughout the day...  And if You want to solve problems, You can look on the web to see what problems are being reported, or maybe You want to go visit the Chinese pyramids...  Or whatever floats Your boat...?  Where YOU choose how You spend Your time?

Maybe it's a matter semantics.  Maybe You are placing a more restrictive definition on personal freedom than am I.  Like You have to be able to control Your every movement 100%, maybe Your heartbeat too...?  I'm not following at all where You are seeing this proposed world as having any issues.

But regardless, I think it's fair to say that the proposed world would be a far better place to live in that this war-for-profit filled world We are in now.  The root of all evil is the LOVE of money, and if You remove the soil (money) in which it grows, You remove virtually all evil.  And who wouldn't want THAT?  (Not counting the evil f**ks.)

[undo11]

because that world doesn't exist.  people naturally gravitate to wanting and keeping the power they have. sorta like not wanting people to take your stuff.  same idea, only a much bigger level. 

did you ever see the movie, labyrinth?  one of the things sarah had to learn was "it's not fair, and that's just the way it is."  you know and i know, that it could be fair, but in order for that to happen, horrible atrocities would need to take place.  and for that to happen, people in authority would have to make extremely evil decisions that far surpass the current evil.   i, for one, am not ready to rubber stamp even more evil to get rid of less evil. 

in effect, the only way your idea seems feasible without a great deal of evil, is for it to come about via a miracle. and since you don't believe in miracles, i must reiterate, that the abundance paradigm is not realistic, that world doesn't and can't exist,  because this is how you view the supernatural and how i view the natural.  the natural world is good in various ways, but survival of the fittest is a law of it. 

do tell me, what is the end result of survival of the fittest?

[Amaterasu]

Beth, it doesn't exist...yet.  People don't gravitate to jobs They hate, to forgoing what They love because They can't support Themselves with it, to being yelled at by bosses and accepting it because They need Their jobs, to working in sweatshops, to working 8+ hours a day to enrich Others...

It is NOT "just the way it is."  Free energy and robots to do things necessary We don't WANT to do is possible, and has never happened in Human history (that We presently have).

Why would "horrible atrocities" have to happen?  I don't see it.  Add free energy, taking the cost of that energy out of the price.  Things get cheaper. and soon robots are affordable.  And things get cheaper and cheaper until at some point, the effort to collect the penny for the week's groceries, the room full of furniture, the house, the [fill in the blank] is more than the penny is worth.

Then everything is free.  And no One HAS to work.  And if the seed I propose is widely spread, a very "fair" and healthy society will spring forth.  No atrocities needed at all.

Nope.  No evil necessary at all.

[undo11]

(i added some stuff to my last post)

i must reiterate, that the abundance paradigm is not realistic, that world doesn't and can't exist,  because this is how you view the supernatural and how i view the natural.  the natural world is good in various ways, but survival of the fittest is a natural law of it.   they are inseparable in the natural world.  they aren't inseparable in the supernatural, but we aren't dealing with the supernatural.

do tell me, what is the end result of survival of the fittest?

[undo11]

not saying i disagree with how nice the abundance paradigm would be. just that you can expect there to still be laws, still be police, still be judges, still be prisons, still be a handful of people telling everyone else what to do. 

either that, or i haven't learned a thing about reality.

[Pimander]

This is the sacred female juxtaposing the sacred male...

If the inverted pyramid is a manifestation/symbol of the sacred female then the upright pyramid would be a manifestation of the sacred masculine.  In a balanced "whole" or complete functioning system you would surely need both pyramids to manifest in harmony and unite.  In uniting they constantly effect each other and cause motion/change.

The synthesis of the masculine and feminine would be the seemingly paradoxical dynamic of a universe with limitless energy available to balance/combat the endless tendency towards high entropy.  With a limitless energy source the interplay of masculine and feminine endlessly adds to the ever expanding moment called the present - the divine and eternal child.

To put it another way, you need entropy as much as its opposite number....

ETA:  I DO NOT mean the present in the conventional sense.  It is so hard sometimes to express these ideas using English.  If only I was a better poet.