The Gold Ring

[SarK0Y]

I like the money where the mouth is idea. I say that a lot also.

For the lifters, a lot of people say it is a dead end of sorts but I don't agree. Hi-Tech changes every day. I am sure if and when the first lifter works on its own a new day will emerge. I am currently stuck on control surfaces with no moving parts. If I have to shift the HV then I need more than one power supply. Breaking 40K is not easy to do but 9v is easy.

Any lifter worth while has to fly on its own power and be able to make flight corrections and then hover when needed .It also has to be stable in a slight wind when not moving. I do have some new radio controlled single or double axis electronic gyros that I plan on using for a stable hover.  They are now using these in the new RC helicopters. Maybe 1/2 inch square and 1/8 thick. The wire that goes to them is the heavy part and also the plastic case. So they have to be changed and board mounted to get them lighter.

Our initial on board PS should keep that lifter posted in this thread, (the cheap triangle one) for maybe 3 hours. Now it would never get that portable PS off the ground so there needs to be a solution between weights, fly time and lifting capacity. I figure anything over 10 minutes would be a nice first step.

Since I am having trouble getting them to pick a bench PS, maybe I will go at it in reverse. Make the portable PS and see what it takes to lift it.

The second problem is programming the log rhythms in order to stabilize the flight.  I need the gyros to back talk to the CPU chip and make adjustments to the power. Remember, no moving parts. Movable landing gear would be the only exception.

Deuem

at nowdays, it's very unlikely to get portable power supply with so huge output & A*h. but if we could have appropriate material to make wires about  200km length, it would make possible to've lifter. + seems it'd be interesting stuff to generate electricity 

[Fruitbat]

Thank you very much for the Kudos and kind words, chaps, although I enjoyed it, it
is a little misplaced, because I haven't done much but talk for over 12 months now.

However, I can tell you that the main problem with the lifter isn't whether it works by ion wind, electro-inertial transductance, electrogravitics, or even magic.

The problem isn't one of control, and I promise you guys, control will be easy, the technolgies needed are readily available. I Know how to switch the 40Kv around using a nine gram R/c servo, and some plastic and bits of wire. Think car distributor, or high voltage contactor, but since we are only dealing with 1mA of current it can be made of physically lightweight and cheap materials, just so long as the geometry is right.

The problem is simply that there isn't enough power to lift itself and it's PSU.

THIS is the only problem that really stops the lfter from being seriously useful and interesting.

Now, WE KNOW that the basic lifter is not the best possible design simply by looking at it.

ALL that remains, AFAICS is to keep the faith that it can be improved, and make small but real efforts individually.

IF someone wants to start a thread, and if it is useful I can take some photos of the basic, cheap cheerful, (and until proven otherwise) accurate and sensitive apparatus I use to measure lifting efficiency) and because I will have to set up the apparatus again, It'll get me working again, in teh field a bit sooner....

In the meantime, I have to go and take some steps to secure the area where it is stored...

Cheers, Steve C.

[PLAYSWITHMACHINES]

Guys, the reasons for using a spiral i already pointed out, and triangles are crap because they have sharp corners and take up a lot of space & material for very little surface area.

The trick is to see how much area you can fit in a small space, I.E. how much foil & wire you can use.
You don't need to increase the voltage much above 50K IMO because it will simply ionise more air--great for party tricks but it's more ion than BB effect at this stage. It's all about area.

What you will also need is the thinnest wire possible, and the top edge of the foil rounded, ny own plan would be to wrap it around a strut so that it gives a nice big radius opposite the very small radius of the thin wire. This also gives the strut 2 functions instead of just being baggage

Will lifters work in a vacuum?
For one thing, you will need to increase the voltage to counter for the vacuum, and since the dielectric medium (air in this case) has been removed, the BB effect will be too small to measure.
Of course, if you had a solid dielectric instead of air, it will work anywhere, and even better in a vacuum because there will be no current drain due to ionisation etc etc....

The fact that a spiral is also a coil seems to have gone unnoticed so far......

Its just a matter of adjusting the air gap to the frequency of the lifter..no arcs then.If you over drive the airgap itll arc between the electrodes everytime..and then it can fry the 555 circuit as well.

Who cares? they cost 50 cents And a plug-in chip-holder about 10 cents, that saves a lot of time replacing them.
Tip for inventors: You will be doing this more often than you think, even on that 'final design'. Use chip holders.
I like the smell of fried silicon in the morning.....

This begs the question of what would happen if one used other materials instead of aluminium foil?

How about Barium Hafnium Titanate?
About as common as rocking horse poop....
Tungsten, rhodium, even platinum is high on the list of possible materials.
If you want lighter than ally though, you will need something like magnesium foil.
You will get a really powerful lifter, until the first spark turns it into a flare

I loved that post Fruitbat, spot on.

Keep one hand in your pocket whenever possible when the high voltage is on! This simple measure makes it less likely that the shock will travel from arm to arm, which in turn reduces the odds of your heart stopping which could happen if you ignore my advice and are not gifted or lucky...

...And try to look nonchalant about it

I have survived several 'arm-to-arm' shocks, one at 440v AC.
It did stop my heart, but i was lucky because the impact of me hitting the wall & then the floor, started it again.
Heed the wise words from Fruitbat.

Also, many wrap their primaries with wire instead of using the inputs built into the flyback..not sure why it is necessary, but I havent needed to do that for mine.

Well, i guess if your'e running it near it's design voltage & frequency, it will work perfectly.

Normally i wind my own primaries in order to use lower voltage drivers, preferably 12v (for obvious reasons)

wouldnt a really large transformer winding cause shorting out through the winding?due to arching

Nah, they use tricks like vacuum chambers to get the air out between the windings, and they let resin in, & bake it hard, and they are using carefully layered windings, so that the voltage between layers is scarcely more than a few hundred volts. Of course, the input & output of that coil are kept as far apart as possible, as are the primary connections

Tip for inventors: Get one of those 'contactless mains testers'- the best one being from Fluke.They work great for detecting high voltages, RF radiation etc etc. Pricey, but invaluable.....

Wheels?
As in gyroscopes?
They use them to steer the Hubble & keep it steady.
We are aware of the rotation connection, but that's for another thread IMO

Again, this argument on lifters still does not explain a very simple phenomenon. That they lift using 2 forces is known, the fact that they work in a vacuum is known. The effect is exponential with regards to field stress is known. That there are several means of acheiving this is also known.

A 10:1 lift-to-weight ratio?
Sure, why not?

I'm not through reading this thread, will come back tomorrow.
Busy here

[robomont]

pwm,i didnt know about the threshhold being 50k.thanks.most of my ideas are theoretical not experimental.

[deuem]

All of the new hi-tech gyroscopes have no moving parts. The expensive ones are laser driven optics. I don't know what Hubble has. Moving or laser.

Question:  If you have a circle of foil on the bottom, Do you also need a circle above or would a point work. Make an electric cone?   Deuem

[Littleenki]

Luke, I had to think about the spiral, but it just came to me...an array of electrodes positioned inside of a tapering vortex tube, charged to allow the chasing charge to spin around the inner tube as it rises..effectively creating a vacuum which would lift the device, or craft..Ill make a drawing tonight..I think itll help me see the final design better..
dont push up..pull up!

Cheers!
Dave

[PLAYSWITHMACHINES]

Gold for that wonderful post Steve.

Whether you enjoy punditry or scientific engineering, the real question I would ask of you is: How devoted are you to pursuing the truth in what you do?

And how much of your time, effort of money can you afford to spend on this?

That's the question isn't it? If you want the answer bad enough you will put everything into it, time ,money, whatever it takes.
I guess i've spent a couple of thousand a year for 25 years, that makes a tidy sum.
But i would rather spend it on my 'hobby' (read: life's work) than pour it down my throat in the pub or have a t.v. the size of a football field, or the latest sneakers
At least i've got something more to show than just a hangover....

You too, Dave:

When it operates, I get a feeling I cant describe, as if there is a sort of loss of reality, or dilation effect..it's really weird and I wonder if you sense it, too?

Like all animals, we are sensitive to electric fields, we have maybe lost that sense due to all the electrical 'noise' we generate around us. I certainly feel 'something' when i fire up all that stuff in the attic, i can feel the charges moving around me, going through me.....

Not to sound like a nutter, but thats what really amazed me into my eventual theory about lifters..not how they lift, but what they do to their surroundings.

That's because of all the negative ions, good for the health, they say
Ozone is bad for humans, by the way, it acts like acid in the lungs, but up there in the stratosphere, it protects us....

I think someday we will join with Luke and build that chamber, with the clock and different sensors...and then we may all agree that lifting is the least of our worries as far as lifters are concerned....

I solemly promise i will build that chamber, we don't need proof, we have that. What we need is more research on the phenomenon.
Since i have more sensors than i know what to do with, it would be my bliss, as Amy puts it, to build one. It will be an 'uplifting experience'
(Actually, i have to build 3 chambers now, a vac chamber, a plasma/microwave chamber, and now the lifter chamber LOL might as well do all 3 at once, it saves time)

The problem with Wiki is...peer review. There are about 2500 volunteers (mostly students) who do the checking, they are dilligent & do the best they can, I use Wiki a lot, it's better than G@@gle in any case.
The problem is, they can only 'moderate' according to what they know (or think they do, that gay irish poet said once "i'm not young enough to know everything" LOL)
To give them some credit, they clearly post if the source is confirmed or not, they clearly mark some topics as 'needing verification' etc.
OK i understand it peeves you Steve, that they may have edited your editing, but maybe they should go check the SOURCE, like TTB's notebooks, or LaViolettes work.
'forgive them, they know not what they do' is my motto....

Of course, those same people will be all over it when it does turn out to be true and they will probably be the ones to profit from it, too...
But there you go, life is like a box of chocolates, aint it?

A cone sounds great Dave, although i must admit my conical tesla coil didn't do very much..
I put it down to bad geometry, i was just plucking dimensions out of the air without thinking about it.

This of course is just laziness on my part, i really should meditate more, and then get the Casio out
Let's see that drawing, mate, & i'll try to get an accurate thermometer with digital redout etc for the lifter chamber.
The cold thing may be a very imprtant clue for us, and i want to have it verified or dismissed ASAP.
OK i'm off to do an update on the Perendev motor...

[robomont]

ive heard of using hv to cool things.maybe the ions strip heat away.

[zorgon]

23 Pages

Ya know... when I started this thread the "Gold Ring" was in reference to HE3 Fusion Confinement

I knew at the time it would switch focus... sort of a test

But carry on I will put the fusion in a new thread

[starwarp2000]

I like the smell of fried silicon in the morning.....

"It smells like.........victory!"   

[PLAYSWITHMACHINES]

Our initial on board PS should keep that lifter posted in this thread, (the cheap triangle one) for maybe 3 hours. Now it would never get that portable PS off the ground so there needs to be a solution between weights, fly time and lifting capacity. I figure anything over 10 minutes would be a nice first step.

Yes.

Since I am having trouble getting them to pick a bench PS, maybe I will go at it in reverse. Make the portable PS and see what it takes to lift it.

Exactly That's the way to go.
Think in watts. How many watts does it take to lift a lifter?
Not much, and this is the triangle, not the best shape for a lifter.

I think any of you experimenting with this should look at how much surface area you can lift, with a given wattage of power......

The problem isn't one of control, and I promise you guys, control will be easy, the technolgies needed are readily available. I Know how to switch the 40Kv around using a nine gram R/c servo, and some plastic and bits of wire. Think car distributor, or high voltage contactor, but since we are only dealing with 1mA of current it can be made of physically lightweight and cheap materials, just so long as the geometry is right.

Right, Steve, this is the way to go, please draw up some plans for us...

Sorry, Zorgon, but fusion research is a little more costly & difficult (NOT impossible by any means) but we really need to get to the root of this first.

I think that a combination of lifter/gravitor techniques will 'get us of the ground' LOl.
I will start some tests of nano-caps versus NiMH cells to see which packs the most power/weight ratio.
This needs to be done, & i have all the equipment to do it...

Starwarp: you can not only smell it, you can feel it, it's like a drug...

ETA:

ive heard of using hv to cool things.maybe the ions strip heat away.

They do.

[PLAYSWITHMACHINES]

That last comment from Robomont set me thinking....

The one 'anomaly' that seems to return to haunt us...

One of the things i would like to sort out is this 'cold' anomaly associated with HV & rotating magnet systems, is it real or not?

Your thoughts on this, please.

[robomont]

if the air is cold then the density should improve lift.
im curious what you find out about the caps versus nmh bat.
i also read nmh has no memory.
if this is true then them batteries could last a lifetime?
if you could get the thing to lift for eight seconds ,i would call it success.
thats how long a bull rider stays on i think?

[starwarp2000]

One of the things i would like to sort out is this 'cold' anomaly associated with HV & rotating magnet systems, is it real or not?

Your thoughts on this, please.

Telsa spoke about those 'cold' effects of his Radiant Energy, and how, when placing your hand in the stream (without fear of shock: as the frequencies are too high to penetrate the skin) a feeling of 'coldness' was experienced.
Was this a 'perceived' cold or was it really the compression of the Aether into a finer 'filament' of cohesion?
Hannes Alfven studied 'Plasma Pinches' and this could be the same process, whereby the medium compresses into a more ordered structure and thereby allows enormous current flows through space. (Case in point: The Current arc from the Sun to Jupiter is 7 Trillion Amps, and to the Earth about 6 billion Amps)
So in an extremely condensed area of space, wouldn't the energetic structure draw 'heat' from it's surroundings. As 'heat' is just another form of the same energy, this is highly likely.
I suppose we should also throw in Faraday and Tesla's 'Tubes of Force' whereby the 'Frozen Magnetic Lines of Force' become carriers of Momentum.
Lightning is actually cold, and there is mounting evidence that the Sun isn't a hot ball of gas, as we have been led to believe.
Food for though PWM? 

[Fruitbat]

They all report cold attending HV/"gravitic" manifestaions.
Huchison, godin, the 3m plant forcefield accident, Littlenki.
I'll keep an eye out for cold, when doing the lifter experimentation.

I'll be looking for more lift per surface area first, with equal or greater electrical conversion efficiency than the basic triangle lifter.

I seriously believe that we will get one into space! (IF we can just get a 10x increase in overall efficiency, this will allow us to use a lipo battery and flyback(s) for the HT generation for maybe 10-20 minutes) If the acceleration isn't limited by aerodynamics, which is why I am looking to compact the thrusters. I think Luke has got something with his spirals, and will be making a spirally lifter very soon. I think some very expanded foam would be best for this one, any idea which foams insulate best and which foams have the highest K anyone? I will endeavour to make my spirals closely conforming, freely rotatable or variable fixing. Being able to measure (and occasionally record when feeling particularly methodical) input power, output voltage and grams of linear thrust obtained is particularly vital if we are going to co-operate.

Anyone lacking the wherewithal to make these measurements themselves, feel free to ask. But in nutshell you get the meters shunt and HV probe cheap off ebay, and make a balance to measure thrust out of balsa wood (or titanium I-Beams if you are really hopeful, about your thrust) using cheap digital "jewellery" scales, again, off ebay.

I spent about 70 quid in total, including the psu, lifter and all metering. But I did start with a fluke multimeter and a cheap chinese multimeter. (Them dirt cheap chinky digital multimeters are really quite reliable in my experience, as are the digital calipers, again ridiculously cheap.) This is the cheapest and most rewarding hobby I have ever had. (Yeah, I know it's real important, but I have issues with "work" and tend to commit far easier to a hobby, or a woman or a holiday or a cat than I do to "work" :c)

SO. Looks like some of you listened to your uncle Fruitbat, and came up with some good ideas. :c)

power/density or watts/grammes of the battery is important, maybe nano caps will do. I'm thinking 50-100watt hours at the moment, and that's at not many Orvilles for LIPO batteries.
Mass penalty of stepping low voltage up to 50KV@1MA (I'm limited to around 18KV I think with my wounded flyback, 25-30 when I get a new one using the naudin PSU, so that's what I will test at. I figure that if I do my initial developement work at that relatively low voltage and actually make some progress either though stealing someones novel configuration (PWM) or coming up with something myself, Anyone who started with a naudin basic lifter setup, will be set to take advantage of it immediately. 

Just to reiterate: Naudin lifted "Orville" a 65 gramme mouse (hence I use Orvilles as a basic unit of payload mass) using about 100 watts (IIRC) and a huge fragile lifter. Common sense (and a bit of aeromodelling experience helps), says that if you just scaled the craft up you could lift more weight, and since my proposed self contained (remote enabled!) power supply which is nearly man enough elctrically speaking to do it, would weigh about ten Orvilles making the resultant lifter unable to leave the hangar. So the key is to make the thrusters 10x smaller OR ten times more efficient. OR, ideally, both.

This truly looks doable to me. Any one else agree?

FB!