The Gold Ring

[zorgon]

Does Orville haz a parachute?

[robomont]

instead of a wire,could you use a bb on a stiff wire as the top electrode?
what about can spray foam?
there are two types.white and yellow.the yellow is stiffer and easier to carve or shape.
i dont know its k value but i bet its high.its density and weight are close to polistyrene/foam packing peanuts

[starwarp2000]

instead of a wire,could you use a bb on a stiff wire as the top electrode?
what about can spray foam?
there are two types.white and yellow.the yellow is stiffer and easier to carve or shape.
i dont know its k value but i bet its high.its density and weight are close to polistyrene/foam packing peanuts

TYPICAL PROPERTIES OF CURED FOAM

Dielectric constant, 10 GHz: 1.04 - 1.06
Dissipation factor, 10 GHz: 0.001 0.001
Compressive strength, psi: 30 50
Compressive modulus, psi: 500 800
Thermal conductivity,BTU-in/hr-ft2-oF: 0.012 0.018
Water absorption, 24hr.: 3.0% max.
Service Temp, oC (oF): -40 to +100 (-40 to +210)

http://www.cumingmicrowave.com/pdf/210-Dielectrics/210-8%20C-FOAM%20PK.pdf

Very Low! 

[starwarp2000]

Does Orville haz a parachute?

Orville is no more 

Either the parachute didn't open, He was zapped, or he landed in a Cat Farm 

[PLAYSWITHMACHINES]

Starwarp is right, foam is useless.
It has fairly low resistance because of the air in it, any HV will just zap straight through it. Been there, done that

But we have also found some very suitable materials, i would like to buid a lifter from magnesium foil, see how high it floats before a spark turns it into a flare...
I might have a go at a lightweight power supply, we at least then have something to build on. It's just a question of surface area, we will probably need a lifter 10 feet across in order to carry it's own supply.

I'm off to the supermarket to fill a trolley with Bak-o-Foil

[Fruitbat]

Fruitbat.PWM.

May I be so bold as to point out that at this stage in the development, "how high it floats" is entertaining, but no where near as useful as how much thrust is obtained from how many watts of input power at whatever voltage you choose to use...

It is tables of data, in an agreed format exchanged between ourselves, together with the new configurations that will lead to the fastest progress (IMHO :c).

IF we are gong to collaborate usefully, we will also need to be quite clear as individuals that those who want to "chase the money" will practice "delayed gratification" until AFTER the project goal is met, which by the sound of it is to make a self lifting lifter, and it's duplicates for those who want one. Knowing myself I'll be quite likely to carry on afterward with the co-operating, but at the point we get it working I can imagine that some of us may have different ideas.

For me that's OK, it's human nature, but before the squabbling starts I'd like us to make a bit of solid progress!

We got a good little project here, that has a calculable probablity of success (I lack the skills or inclination to do said calculation, and am relying on the "upside" of my ADD to guide me here, but it's usually right, (is why it's a good thing to have, has saved my metaphorical ass and others on many an occasion) and will reward both individual and collaborative efforts. All we have to do is be open and honest in our endeavour, and it will work well.

Hope you don't mind the tone of "guidance" that creeps in to some pf my postings, but I have been mentally working out how I'm gong to make a self powered lifter alone for some 12 months now, I'm slightly qualified to help you plan and co-ordinate your effort, and would very much like to see this thing done, it will be much fun. (Providing no one kills themselves, remember a lifter is the very embodiment of a high voltage charged capacitor, which in turn is the very embodiement of DANGER to those who's bodies conduct electricity..) My lifter holds 4000v for much longer than you would expect. WITH THIS STUFF THE POWER ISN'T OFF UNTIL YOU HAVE MEASURED THAT IT IS OFF!!! There, that bit of "shouting" should keep 'em safe.

*Note to self* Capacitance may need to be measured later, but the meter is very cheap, off ebay thank goodness.

Gotta go, have a geiger tube to pick up. It's now got to the stage where I need to chart radiation trends over here. Yesterday I ws getting seven times as much as I should have. and I am as far away on this hemisphere as you can get from Fukinshambles. I worry for you 'mericans, I really do.

I don't think our media is serving us very well. I also don't think there is enough seaweed for all uf us either.
I'm sorry we hijacked this thread Zorgon, with our talk of lifters etc, but I'm glad we did, it's turning out interesting. Spiral lifter. You don't need the foam to be particularly an insulator, in order to use it as a structural element at either end, it just can't go between the elements as far as I can see, although some of it might. I suspect that we will find that one electrode can be nano-thin, which will aid "lightness" no end, but may involve some fractal shaping in order to get the charge distributions right. BUt for now, it;s down to different materials, different geometries, and different electronics all pushing and co-ordinated in the right direction.  By producing figures you can easily see the direction. I suspect that a porper ufo drive needs to achive a potential difference across it's elements of 10's of millions of volts, which we cannot do. But a working model to play with, yes that we should manage within a few thousand man hours of effort. MAYBE a lot less, depending on luck/inspiration and teh mathematics off collaboration.

Fruitbat!

[Littleenki]

Hmmm, a flying tank circuit?

Le

[Fruitbat]

Hmmm, a flying tank circuit?

Le

Energised by RF and careful antenna design, just like in independence day.... Thought of that but self contained is the way to go, if you want a miliion people to jump on the bandwagon, and cement the technology into the public conciousness... OOPS Did I say that out loud?

More to the point, self contained is just more fun.

FB!

[PLAYSWITHMACHINES]

Fruitbat makes sense

A co-ordinated effort, materials, circuits etc.
No arguments, & a possible toy for pegasus...it would certainly 'generate' a lot of interest
Count me in

'Flying tank circuit' Dave?
I would rather have a flying Tank.....

[Littleenki]

Fruitbat makes sense

A co-ordinated effort, materials, circuits etc.
No arguments, & a possible toy for pegasus...it would certainly 'generate' a lot of interest
Count me in

'Flying tank circuit' Dave?
I would rather have a flying Tank.....

Ok Luke, but can it have a Tesla death ray for armament?

Le

[Fruitbat]

IF you can make one, yes.
(when you do, please share, I want one for my car, and motorcycle.)

FB!

[deuem]

My guy was telling me that a portable unit with the latest tech for ( 40Kv @0.375ma )15W should weigh in at 300 to 400 grams.

How does this fit the bill ?

How fat was that mouse?

This would only supply one stream of power, i was looking for 4 controllable streams. I ddid/do not want just on/off of the 40Kv but to have 3 of the circuits variable in power so I could use them for flight control. 5 total would be best but 4 would work. Looking for no moving parts, all done by electronics. Although it could all run off of the same battery, The weight would add for more coils depending if we needed 40K to stear by or could do it with less. 20Kv or less would mean 3 smaller control circuits.

Thinking coils to caps to caps.

Deuem

[Fruitbat]

My guy was telling me that a portable unit with the latest tech for ( 40Kv @0.375ma )15W should weigh in at 300 to 400 grams.

How does this fit the bill ?

How fat was that mouse?

This would only supply one stream of power, i was looking for 4 controllable streams. I did/do not want just on/off of the 40Kv but to have 3 of the circuits variable in power so I could use them for flight control. 5 total would be best but 4 would work. Looking for no moving parts, all done by electronics. Although it could all run off of the same battery, The weight would add for more coils depending if we needed 40K to stear by or could do it with less. 20Kv or less would mean 3 smaller control circuits.

Thinking coils to caps to caps.

Deuem

OK, I can get behind helping with that Duem. First question, how accesible to others is this PSU you have?
Assuming it is, and by accesible I mean affordable as well as physically obtainable, the benchmark lightweight "Naudin PSU" should weigh (excluding battery) a similar weight if I remember correctly...
Scaling up their "orville" achivement to the point where it woudl self lift IS clearly possible, BUT it will be too huge and fragile to demonstrate easily, or fun to play with....

I think you are thinking of using model helicopter/quadrocopter technolgy when you are thinking about the control issues. I am thinking that we could use a big brushless ESC to activate three lighter weight flybacks, bung a transistor across each output to allow variablilty of power to each of the, three ht sources, and you could use a tricopter control system to fly it. The problem is in the surface area to thrust part of the deal, that's literally where our supper lifter will fold, if we don't advance the technology there. So what practical time I get goes in that area at the moment.

However I need to build a new PSU soon, and I'll take what progress you have and try and add to it when I do. The big problem with DIY is the flybacks. You can't make them easily. IF your guy has a solution that is just as mass efficeint but easier to reliably source the parts, then I am all ears!!

It fills me with joy inside every time one of you has a new idea or advances soemoen else idea.

Please keep it coming, we really do have something interesting and fun gaing on here...

FB!

[PLAYSWITHMACHINES]

400 grams? That's pretty good for a 40kv supply.

I have recently aquired an old 19" monitor circuit board, it has a small flyback which kicks out 25-30Kv (or at least it did before i killed the tranny )
The trick would be to use a fairly low voltage to run it, i'm thinking 9v or less, so the primary will have to be re-wound.
Here we have a small problem, since i'm inclined to use a fairly massive coil, to test the Newman/Tesla concept of mass being more important than current, but too big a coil will just be extra weight...Hmm

Another aspect is whether to use DC or pulsed DC on the lifter.

I'm thinking the flyback will run best at it's design frequency, i.e. 640 lines x 70 hertz gives 44.8 KHz, well within the reach of a 555. This is strong enough to drive an SMD mosfet for example.

Also, most components are available in SMD format, but development kits are a bit pricey. I might just invest in one anyway, since i have lots of 'miniturization' projects in the pipeline. It might be better to glue them onto a thin acetate sheet & connect them with tiny wires & blobs of solder....

More coffee!
(Yaa i fixed the espresso machine, it was the cap feeding the 240v to the step-down resistor)

[robomont]

your talking about four ps.
is there a way to just put variable resistors on each control module.instead of powering one up.power three down.
or reverse the current on a mode,or two or three.maybe polarity switches.im just tired and thinkin off the top of my head.