The Gold Ring

[Fruitbat]

PM. Don't sweat the 40 volts most flybacks seem to need, although there must be a low cost flyback from a 12v coulour tv out there some where. You will need a battery any way for self lifting, and the current state of the art is lithium ion batteries. I can steer you to a dirt cheap light weight solution in increments of 3.7 volts a go. The battery I have in my hand weight 27.5 grammes, gives between 10 adn 11.1 useable volts at 350MA for an hour. Amps can be drawn if neccesary fro shorter flight times. so five of them is 150 grammes, leaving 450 grammes for the actual PCB, power transistor and transformer.


EVERYONE:

Sticking to the naudin circuit makes it dead accesible, for anyone who has done the basic playing that most people need to "prove the concept". That was of maximum importance for me as a newb, I needed to get it working as quickly and cheaply as possible.

Untill I (or someone else) has actually solved the problem of size/efficiency of the lifting body, then doing the final PSU design is a bit difficult, but we should try and get the weight down, the power up, the efficiency greater, and look towards provision of higher voltages if nessesary. There must be a better way, or a smaller and lighter flyback...

Now I did do a table of voltages, and found that I got more lift as the voltage went up, but I mislaid the table before I got around to seeing how the input power correlated with the grammes of lift figures.
When I do that again, I intend to feed the mighty bu208 (I got 5, have yet to kill one) from the (possibly sacrificial) function generator, so as I can investigate the most efficent waveform to voltage configuration.
ALL these measurements will be done using a carefully built standard lifter, so if I fid anything useful you can do it by only changing the PS a bit.

SIMILARLY: when I test different lifter configs, I'll be using the standard naudin PS so if I do anything useful you already have the PSU needed to dulicate it.

Also, there is a principle in aviation, that you either develop the engine, OR the airframe, never both simultaneously, which seems to be relevant to this endeavour.

May I cautiously suggest that a basic entry requirement for participation in the Pegasus Research Consortium "space shot", be successful completion and operation of a basic naudin triangle lifter and it's PS?

To be fair, I'll have to do work and spend money also, in order to comply with the requirement! My lifter is the wrong dimensions, and my PS does not make enough voltage to comply with the standard. Naudin set the standard, he lit the torch, it seems fitting to use his design as our common starting and reference point.

If any one sees that I am either going too far, or in the wrong direction with my effort here to get a "commonality of the basics" and framework in place so that we can mutually derive the maximum benefit from each others work, please speak out, otherwise I'll just keep it up until "we or me" gets the job done...

Pegasus into space! Yay!

ROBOMONT, making a "variable resistor" at this voltage will pose a bit of a challenge, but should be doable. However, IF we can get electronic control over several different areas of HT, we might gain a lot in efficiency, rather rather than dissipating the energy we need to lose in a VR, we simply don't make so much by altering the drive.

IF I can find a viable 3 coil solution, the control and energising electronics could literally be bought from hobby king, making the project potentially viral... as soon as we find the optimum "aerofoil" or as I like to call my lifter, "electro-inertial transductance unit".

We CAN do this, I am sure. the only hard bit to find (and only bit that has failed so far) was the LOPT transformer that naudin specified. We either need a homebrew design, or one that is so common it can be got all over the world, but if that proves to be a stumbling block and anyone can afford it, I can mail them out...

Is there likely to be a new fangled car, motorbike, generator, etc coil that will do the job? IS a flyback teh most efficient way of getting our voltage?

We DEFINTELY need more data before we can work out the final design...
And I really think practical contributors, developers ought to start from the same place.
IF it ends up going that way, which rather means you either find the naudin style flybacks, in your local country or we send a few over from europe, then it would not be an impossibilty to have a PCB laid up quite near to me at a reasonable cost, with either PCB's available by letter post from the maker. It is something me and tthem discussed a year or so back..

FB!

[deuem]

Fruitbat,

The PS I am talking about would be on a PC board. It would be instructed by a chip. I was designing 5 circuits to be on at 100% at lift and 4 circuits to be the cflight control circuits. Flight control to be made by lowering the force give to on or two sections so it would turn. Turn finished, they all power up to 100% and remain in hover. The 5 flight circuit might be very small and not at 40K but much lower, like 20K. What ever is needed to steer it.

We were going to use the new 2 axis electronic gyros for hover control. About the size of a penny. This would release power from one of the 4 areas on the opposite side and balance the unit. When you take joystick in hand, it by-passes the gyros and gives you full control again.  I have a quad heli on my desk right now. They are using all four blades as control surfaces. If we used that idea then a minimum of 3, 40K supplies are needed and the weight goes up. But, if one PS can lift one set up, then by adding three together would/should work ok.

I will have to ask if I can get them to give me a print of the idea. This PS might be something most of you electronics guys could solder together. If not it would normaly go through a pick and place then wave solder machine. Then there is the question of rights. I don't know if they will release it or not without some paperwork trail. That is 50/50 right now. The only reason they did not make it now is because they got real busy with a new product that pays. So I might have to wait till that engineering is finished.

In the meantime, control jets or switching of power is the key as I see it. How to power down 40K or 20K without more coils seems tough. It should be easy to lower the frequency of the main coils by altering the low voltage end using the control chip.

Deuem

[PLAYSWITHMACHINES]

Robo: It IS a good idea, to switch the output using servo's.
It was good enough for Searl, that's how he controlled the 'control surfaces' as he called them, on his IGV's
(it's all in the searl section in 'inventors'-if you are fortunate to have access to it-;)

A good analysis, Steve.
Going on that rough draft, i can say we can build a fairly hefty supply !
Li-ion cells are a brilliant idea, i have a few here (small ones). Lithium is very light

Untill I (or someone else) has actually solved the problem of size/efficiency of the lifting body, then doing the final PSU design is a bit difficult,

We're working on it

but we should try and get the weight down, the power up, the efficiency greater, and look towards provision of higher voltages if nessesary. There must be a better way, or a smaller and lighter flyback...

I agree, don't think we need to go above 40kv, so it's just a question of milliamps.

We need first to determine the mA/surface area ratio for the standard model, say an 8-10" triangle, foil about 1" (25mm) high?

I would like to compare that with other shapes, like spirals, etc.

Once we have the mA to area ratio, we know how big to make the lifter, given the max output of the supply for 1 hour.

the mighty bu208

My god man, you live in a museum or what?
I've got a few here, somewhere....I'll try them out

ALL these measurements will be done using a carefully built standard lifter, so if I fid anything useful you can do it by only changing the PS a bit.

Agreed! Can we have the exact dimensions?
I guess you've all read Naudin's results on different foil height, height of wire etc, but we need the 'standard model' to begin with.

SIMILARLY: when I test different lifter configs, I'll be using the standard naudin PS so if I do anything useful you already have the PSU needed to dulicate it.

Likewise, easier for me, too

May I cautiously suggest that a basic entry requirement for participation in the Pegasus Research Consortium "space shot", be successful completion and operation of a basic naudin triangle lifter and it's PS?

Well, if i drop everything, and maybe stop working overtime in my day job, i could have 7 of them ready by Thursday
I think one will suffice.......

If any one sees that I am either going too far, or in the wrong direction with my effort here to get a "commonality of the basics" and framework in place so that we can mutually derive the maximum benefit from each others work, please speak out, otherwise I'll just keep it up until "we or me" gets the job done...

Dude, that's the whole reason why i set up the 'inventors forum' on the Toob all those years ago, it's the reason i moved it all here, where the brains are and it's why i sleep 5 hours max.
It's my life's work, to get some of these machines built.
But more importantly, to share this with others, as they share with me. I've learned a lot since i got here.
I've also been given a mental kick in the butt and my output in terms of actually building stuff has increased dramatically.


Just when i thought i needed a small lathe, i got one from my brother (bless him) he's a genius.

IF I can find a viable 3 coil solution, the control and energising electronics could literally be bought from hobby king, making the project potentially viral... as soon as we find the optimum "aerofoil" or as I like to call my lifter, "electro-inertial transductance unit".

Like the name!
By 3 coil i presume the primary, secondary, & feedback coil to run the oscillator?
This would be a 1 or 2 power tranny circuit?

Is there likely to be a new fangled car, motorbike, generator, etc coil that will do the job? IS a flyback teh most efficient way of getting our voltage?

I'm thinking maybe a mini tesla coil, with an air core. That way you lose all that heavy ferrite.
But for now we should stick with the TV/PC monitor flybacks, they are pretty compact.

Tip for inventors: the bigger the tube, the higher the voltage it needs, so if you see a BIG monitor being thrown away, grab it & run like hell....

We DEFINTELY need more data before we can work out the final design...
And I really think practical contributors, developers ought to start from the same place.

Yes, and Yes.

I had an idea ages ago to make a flyback in a pot-core made of ferrite. In other words, the coil is totally enclosed in a toroid of the stuff, hardly any external field No leakage....
These pot-cores can be ordered ready made as 2 halves, you just wind yer coil, plop it in, glue the top on.
I have a small one here, makes about 3KV, it's about 30mm diameter, 20 high.
Maybe we could chain these up in series & make a super efficient flyback?
Maybe later, i'm off to bed for my +- 5 hours rest.

Deuem: Good work, dude
I like the sound of those tiny gyro's...mmmmm!

[PLAYSWITHMACHINES]

Should we rename this the 'Gold triangle' thread?
Sorry Z!

[robomont]

ill give you the hv stuff i just pulled out of that projector tv.you just pay the shipping.pm me if any of you want it.i put pics up somewhere in this forum.pwm remembers talking about it i think.
it had a three hv lead setup.

[Fruitbat]

PWM said: "By 3 coil i presume the primary, secondary, & feedback coil to run the oscillator?
This would be a 1 or 2 power tranny circuit?"

The most efficient and inexpensive lightweight self contained electrical power unit I know of so far is that found in your higher grade radio control helicopters. There's a 3 phase delta wound motor driven from a really small and lightweight piece of electronics called the ESC (electronic speed control) this drives three very low impedance coils in the motor at literally tens of amps. with a sequence of pulses to make the motor turn.

It occurred to me that it might be possible to substitute the 3 flyback's  primary coils for the motor windings and end up with a three headed PSU. at a very low cost. By adding a transistor in circuit with each primary, and biasing it from three channels of control to reduce the available power to each coil as needed I figured a control sysem could be implemented at virtually no extra cost in tems of weight or added complexity. I have made the assumption that lighter weight flybacks could be sourced. OF course a if diy solution to sourcing the flybacks becomes available then one could just wind three primary coils, and use the esc as a three phase exciter, which still will make significant savings in terms of size and weight..

I lost a significant sum of money trying to sell r/c helicopters a few years back, but the technogy inside them is quite impressive and very reasonably priced.

And if anyone out there has been thinking about acquiring an r/c helicopter, I can save you a shedload of money. Start with a syma "mosquito" then progress to a nine eagles "solo Pro", and then stop.

Everything else is dead expensive to operate unless you turn out to be really gifted in the flying department. EVERYONE I've seen who bought one of those 450 sized 3d helicopters has destroyed it within seconds of it leaving the ground. With no exceptions.

FB!

[PLAYSWITHMACHINES]

Too much going n for a long reply so:

Robo; I could use those parts, & can pay the shipping, no problrm but i'd rather you kept them & built something, it's easy, we can all help you with it
Tell you what, keep 1 and send the others to me,(email me so we can exchange info),  i can use them to build 'lifter ' supplies...

Fruitbat, old bean;

There's a 3 phase delta wound motor driven from a really small and lightweight piece of electronics called the ESC (electronic speed control) this drives three very low impedance coils in the motor at literally tens of amps. with a sequence of pulses to make the motor turn.

A miniature 3 phase system?
Cool, i want 10 of them, drivers,motors, gears, anything you've got
These are micro versions of the industrial 3-phase stuff, and they can be used for many things.
1 they can run 3-phase motors, which are more efficient than DC or single phase AC, you can't stall em.
2 this system is also used for power transmission (hence all power lines have multiples of 3)
3 They give full control over the motor/transformer, voltage, phase angle, power factor, frequency you name it.
4 they are ideal for driving some of my free energy machines, which use the same industrial setup

The 3 coils i was referring to was Naudin's  simple flyback circuit, which has no chips in it which is easier to make for those with little experience in electronics....

EVERYONE I've seen who bought one of those 450 sized 3d helicopters has destroyed it within seconds of it leaving the ground. With no exceptions.

No sweat, i reckon some of my lifters will share that fate
Some of my experiments lasted several microseconds.........

ETA: It was Tesla (of course) who introduced this polyphase system.
He even built 24-phase systems, today we only use 3....

[PLAYSWITHMACHINES]

On reflection...this is important so i will stay awhile...
I imagine that Tesla & the Westinghouse engineers must have agreed on a compromise at this point, anyone have any data on that?

In any case it's a good compromise, since a 'stalling' 3-phase motor will still have 60% of it's power, and it's a good compromise for transmission lines etc.
All you have to do is increase the number of POLES in the motor (coils as it were, poles=coils for the less technicaly minded) as long as you do it in multiples of 3.
For the industry, it's a peice of cake also, you just make low RPM high torque motors with 3 sets of coils, medium motors with higher speed with 6 coils etc.
Many of these motors have 12 coils, that's 4 'poles' times 3 'phases' ok?

Now, Tesla knew you could use a thousand 'phases' on a single conductor, even using the ionosphere and get enourmous efficiency in the transmission of power and using the earth itself, either as a ground 'return' line--or for the transmission itself See what i mean?

You only have to think on this for a while to see a whole new maze of possibilities before you
That makes me smile, every time

[Fruitbat]

PWM Said: "No sweat, i reckon some of my lifters will share that fate
Some of my experiments lasted several microseconds......... "

MY first lifter caught fire in my G/F's kitchen at 4:30 in the morning. Caught me right by surprise, but I got the power off and blew out the fire very quickly... It was after all only a small fire that consumed one of the uprights that holds the anode. (I am right the anode is the upper wire connected to the + supply and the cathode is the lower plate). I am pleased to report that I managed to repair it, and it serves me still.

POINT OF INTEREST! H.V. Fires burn really quickly when the juice is on. I assume that OZONE is a powerful oxidising agent... Be careful and take proper precautions. I like to have a watcher around just in case my heart needs a restart.

May I chuck out a possible explanation of the lifter effect?
I am told that the earth is charged to 14 million volts DC negative with respect to the surrounding space. I am also told that LIKE charges repel each other.
Can you see where I am going with this?
COULD IT BE SO SIMPLE that a lifter which has a negative charge of 25KV repels the earth which also has a negative charge? YOU might think that since the lower plate is at earth potential it has no charge with respect to the earth Like I have for several months, but when you consider the gold leaf electroscope, you can see that the plates repel each other despite being charged from the same point.... it's a yin and yang thing, the earth is has its surrounding space to match it's charge the negative plate in the lifter has it's positive wire to "refer" to. From the perspective of space, your 25 KV PSU could be replaced by the mother of all huge resistors coming down through the miles of atmosphere and termintaed in a fine strand of copper wire.
IS THIS THE SECRET? Electrostatic repulsion as demonstrated in the gold leaf electroscope?
I couldn't be that simple could it?
This MIGHT also explain why when one inverts 2 lifters with different sized lower plates, 1 lifter pushes downwards and one does not. The relative sizes of the plates would be cruciial for shaping the fields produced, which would affect how different configurations work in different orientations. I can now see how a better "K" factor which I think is a measure of teh insulating properties of a dielectric would allow higher operationg voltages with respect to the earths atmosphere and will be crucial when we get to trying to "lift" ourselves. It's not only raw voltage that makes the effect it's also the shape of the field which by careful geometry should be "intensifiable". The reason a lifter works on it's side has to be not because it is repelling the earth, but because it is shaping the local electrostatic environment.`

Maybe. Any takers?

FB!

[robomont]

25million,very interesting.
i have patents that clearly show the earth negative.
what your saying is what i believe but i never had a relative voltage until now.do you have a reference for that.its not that i dont believe,im just curious.
if it is so then that is the voltage we should be shooting for and falls within my theory of it being in the xray range.

the problem with that voltage is the k factor,the xrays outside the craft and the size of the engine exaust.if one uses a flame jet generator.if someone else has an idea on creating those voltages,please speak up.

[Littleenki]

If the Earth is charged at 14 million vdc negative, which electrode of the lifter would it represent?

And where would that other electrode be located?

In the sky somewhere? 

How could a circuit be composed which imitates the plasma connection of the upper and lower electrode?

Along some sort of transmission arc, or plasma channel, which was connected through to the ionosphere?

Wouldnt this be called..riding the lightning?

Le

[robomont]

its a voltage gradient.
if earth is negative then the negative cathode is down and shaped like a pie or bowl,top has a ball.

if earth is twentyfive million then the ionosphere is about twentyfive million one hundred thousand.the patent i have says 100000 ditference.
this gradient is what i think can be used to bounce off the planets galaxies and universes.i just didnt have a voltage starting point.

fruitbat i give you praise and gold if you can prove it or reference.it means that much to my personal theory.

[Fruitbat]

I have to go to work now, and when I get back I have a party in my house, which will involve about ten 18 year old females getting somewhat drunk, so I am not sure when I will be able to make a measured reply.  But I think there is one to be made... I do know that when we charge up our lifters bottom plate although it has the same potential as the earth it has a "charge" or potential difference with respect to the top wire.

And I think that the proof lies in the fact that if you make 2 identical lifters with different sized bottom plates, one will lift which ever way it is oriented (Allegedly, I have read this in several places but not yet seen it myself because my first lifter (which only lifts if the voltage and orientation is correct) I inadvertently made to the wrong dimensions, and my second lifter I made differently physically because was trying to reduce the overall mass of the framework).#

I will get back to you robomont, as soon as I can with some better references, but I am of course making this up as I go along, to try and fit all the pre existing and new information that I have. I expect to find out I am wrong, but just cannot yet see it..

Now I need to go and work on some different flying machine technology, as I am helping to make a DC3 serviceable this week...

FB!

[deuem]

If the Earth is charged at 14 million vdc negative, which electrode of the lifter would it represent?

And where would that other electrode be located?

In the sky somewhere? 

How could a circuit be composed which imitates the plasma connection of the upper and lower electrode?

Along some sort of transmission arc, or plasma channel, which was connected through to the ionosphere?

Wouldnt this be called..riding the lightning?

Le

Hi Littleenki, I got you on the distance here because that makes sence to us. Our cheap lifters would catch on fire and burn up if the distance was to small. Keeping that in mind what if you had material that could manage the 14 million volts all contained in a typical UFO size of 25 feet. Would that then force an outside arc. We see these arcs or colors all the time. Just maybe this 14 million volt arc is doing the color dance we see?

Even Bob Lazar said that the craft he saw had a ring around the top to stop the flow of something. Ok call this the top wire and then the bottom wire is near the groung. Now take another material attached to the hull that the 14 million volts will pass over and we have lift with a lot of arcing. Hum!

The more air the more color, In space it should be colorless.

Deuem

[pschrier]

This thread...is great...Deuem...like a Faraday Limiter...FruitBat...like a...this is a great thread.

All the Best,

Paulie