My stance on guns

[Pimander]

my telling you to stuff it was in response to your saying that MY COUNTRY
should be ashamed because we don't follow your pseudo intellectual feelings about
gun ownership

I said you should be ashamed of yourselves for failing to stand up for democracy when you had an unelected president imposed on you.  So many of you claim that gun ownership is connected with protecting you from precisely that type of thing.  It made no difference.  I stand by my comment that it is shameful.

It is shameful that you use that line to justify having so many guns and high numbers of homicides - despite the fact that it is quite obviously a fallacy that you want to protect yourselves from tyranny.  You had the unelected oil/bank/corporate man Bush, you had your wars, your lack of energy independence, you still have to pay private bankers swathes of your GDP every day but your guns have made no difference.  It is a nonsense.

[sky otter]

well i hope you aren't going to split a vein chastising us badddddd americans..lol

i was not joining your argument..couch couch..excuse me.. your debate.

i can only speak for myself and i can only control my working within the system to make changes

but as long as you are working with humans who are able to grab a bit of power and are greedy  then you will continue to have this problem..

obviously your countrymen  are fine upstanding folk and you don't have a working reference for this kind of problem..good for you

but if you have read your history you might note that folk only revolt when they reach bottom
i don't think we are there yet


screaming your views and shaking our finger at folk doesn't fix the problem it only makes them walk away from you or poke back

perhaps some suggestions on how to dismantle a corrupt white man mentality would be more helpful here....i can tell you as a female growing up with it that there are some changes..
they aren't huge but they are there..and they are occuring on a regular basis but when a youngl  someone gets pulled into the system..they don't know how to change it without being chewed and spit out.
fear, as you know , is a strong motivator in any theme

the tools we need for change don't include being yelled at by a neighbor..especially a self-righteous one.

so forgive me for not continuing the debate...i have work to do to make a difference and not a lot of time to waste being told i should be ashamed..
i'm not


ok.. sorry i had to come back and say apologies for being entirely off topic
i  haven't giving my stance on guns...i was giving my opinion on government
guess i shouldn't post on stuff, huh?

bwhahahahahahahahah

[Sgt.Rocknroll]

Gore was the WINNER OF YOUR ELECTION.  Bush was the LOSER.  The oh so democracy loving, free -  lets remember ARMED - American people were also the losers when they allowed tyranny to win over Democracy.  Shame on you all.

Just catching up on my reading and I came across this little quote.

I'm sorry but you are absolutely WRONG when you claim that Gore won the election. The Miami Herald went back and recounted every vote that was cast. And guess what? Bush actually gained votes. So please give it a rest. There was a movie about the election and in this movie, I think it was called 'Recount', the Demos tried to portray the election as being 'stolen'. Well they spent over 90 minutes recounting how the Repubs 'stole' everything. But as the credits rolled by, if you cared to read any of it, it was stated that the recount changed nothing, NOTHING!. So please give that little lie a rest.

[Pimander]

How the Miami Herald Lied About Their Own Recount

The widely anticipated release of the results of the Miami Herald recount of Florida undervotes finally happened on April 3rd. The results of the recount demonstrate that under most rational scenarios, Al Gore would have won the Presidency. According to the data, far more people cast a vote for Al Gore than for George W. Bush. And the results strongly suggest that Gore would have won any statewide recount done under the auspices of the Florida Supreme Court.

But the Herald headline and lead tell a different story. They say that Bush would have won if the recount had gone forward.(1)

How did the Herald justify its headline, and its lead? They did it by:

    Misrepresenting the Florida Supreme Court decision

    Creating bizarre scenarios that assume the impossible

    Ignoring previous relevant Florida Court decisions

    Burying the information that demonstrated that Gore won in Florida

And throughout the post-November period, the Herald consistently ignored, or withheld, information that called into question the legitimacy of the Bush regime, while aggressively pursuing stories that raise questions about Gore supporters claims of victory.

The key information, that Al Gore received the most votes in the Herald examination of the undervote, was relegated to deceptive and confusing tables, and mentioned in articles among a plethora of various scenarios and equivocations. You have to read, and decipher, the 'fine print' to get to the facts.


Why the Lie?

By itself, the data from the Herald manages to prove absolutely nothing. But taken in conjunction with the media recounts that have been done of the overvoted ballots, the Herald data does prove one thing decisively---more people VOTED for Al Gore than for George W. Bush in Florida.


Then why did the Herald declare Bush the winner? Although there is more than sufficient evidence to say that the Herald did so because of its clear, consistent and unmistakable political bias, the real reason is probably money. The Herald went to considerable expense to do this recount, and the only way it is every going to get a return on this investment is by selling the book it is doing on the recounts. The best way to do that is to create controversy about the results. Controversy sells books.

The Herald recount represents a distinct low point in journalistic integrity and credibility. After promising a completed recount in three week, it took three months. After declaring, without equivocation, that it would not release any partial results, the Herald released the results from Dade County, and then completely misrepresented what those results actually meant. And now they give us the Big Lie. 

http://www.failureisimpossible.com/ElectionStudies/lukasiak_mhrecount.htm

I'm sorry but you are absolutely WRONG when you claim that Gore won the election. The Miami Herald went back and recounted every vote that was cast. And guess what? Bush actually gained votes. So please give it a rest.

Not so.

In his recent book "Steal This Vote" - a very judicious work, despite its title - Andrew Gumbel, a U.S. correspondent for the British newspaper The Independent, provides the best overview I've seen of the 2000 Florida vote. And he documents the simple truth: "Al Gore won the 2000 presidential election."

Two different news media consortiums reviewed Florida's ballots; both found that a full manual recount would have given the election to Mr. Gore. This was true despite a host of efforts by state and local officials to suppress likely Gore votes, most notably Ms. Harris's "felon purge," which disenfranchised large numbers of valid voters.

But few Americans have heard these facts. Perhaps journalists have felt that it would be divisive to cast doubt on the Bush administration's legitimacy. If so, their tender concern for the nation's feelings has gone for naught: Cindy Sheehan's supporters are camped in Crawford, and America is more bitterly divided than ever.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/19/opinion/19krugman.html?_r=0

Had the Broward and Palm Beach canvassing boards used the loosest standard in judging ballots and finished the recount by the court-set deadline -- which Palm Beach did not meet -- Gore almost certainly would have won. He might have gained 2,022 votes in the two counties when Bush's state lead was only 930.

And that tally may be conservative because it excludes the cleanly punched ballots in Broward, 252 Bush votes and 786 Gore votes. Broward election officials say they cannot be certain that cleanly punched ballots weren't also read during the machine count.

U.S. Rep. Peter Deutsch, D-Pembroke Pines, a constant presence at the Broward recount, argued that every ballot mark was made deliberately by a voter indicating a candidate. All impressions should have counted, catapulting Gore over the top.

``The reality is that the canvassing board did not use a liberal standard and did not use the correct standard,'' Deustch said. ``Had they used the correct standard, Al Gore would be president.''

http://web.archive.org/web/20011127072559/http://www.miami.com/herald/special/news/flacount/docs/038575.htm

[Sgt.Rocknroll]

Citizens for Legitimate Government=A multi-partisan activist group established to expose and resist US imperialism, corpora-terrorism, and the New World Order

WOW....

Absolute Bush Haters.....


Michael D. Rectenwald, Ph.D.
His 10 point plan...
Bush has blown up the world. Now the onus is on Democrats to say how they would put it back together. Nice move.

I say, resist and tell it like it is. The war and the domestic crisis are the messes that Georgie made. Here are the steps I suggest to remedy this terrible situation.

1. Tell the people that George Bush and his friends are killers, liars, and thieves and that not only shouldn't they listen to him and them, but that they all belong in jail.

2. Get George and his friends out of the way -impeach, or if no time, wait till election-then put them in prison where they belong. No more reason to be afraid of what they say, calling opposition 'cut-and-run' Democrats. Let them say it from prison and see if they can 'cut-and-run' from behind bars.

3. Get the people he deployed to the disaster out of the disaster.

4. Rebuild the US first. Rebuild the schools, roads, infrastructure, housing, education system, medical insurance and other needs neglected by the Republicans over the last eight years, as they went on their killing spree and spent all of our money.

5. After cooling the Republicans by arresting most of them and shutting their stupid mouths forever, start working on reversing Global Warming.

6. Revoke all the tax cuts made by the criminal Bush clan.

7. Remove all the "Justices" put in place by the Bush clan, including on the Supreme Court.

8. Abolish all the bullshit programs put in place by Bush clan, including Medicaid "reform" and the provisions attached to the 'no-child-left-behind' scam. Surely Bush was left behind.

9. Consider the possibility that the Republican ideology contravenes the Constitution because its policies and beliefs endanger the well-being of the people. Consider making the Republican Party illegal.

10. Start a party that opposes the Democratic Party from the left of the Democratic Party and makes the Republican Party a detestable relic of the past akin to the slave-holding Confederates.

If you quote this guy and his leftist wackadoos.... Well I guess theres no hope for you....

[robomont]

sure abolish the pub party now that the paulies took it over.
in four years all hell is gonna break lose when the republican party transforms.
from what i understand,rons supporters basically own that party now.
my guess, the media will forget that party exist.

[zorgon]

Scrap em both   Set me up as king  I will fix things

[burntheships]

Zorgon,

You have my vote.

As for now, we have Eric Holder and his ilk in charge,
its ok for them to use guns in Fast and Furious,
which killed how many people?

Remember, Holder set out a long time ago to brainwash
people about guns.




Looks like its worked on quite a few people.



Guns dont kill people, people do.

Now, consider what kind of a government wants to
disarm the public, while it flies drones around the world
killing men, women and children.

[petrus4]

WOW....

Absolute Bush Haters.....

I don't see anything wrong with that.  Bush and his father were almost certainly the two most rampant, total, blatant, utterly unrestrained psychopaths to ever hold American political office.

[burntheships]

Earlier in the thread, discussion of gun ownership in
big cities....

Addressing to that end, sure guns wont protect us from
the government. However, that does not address the whole
issue.

Tell me, if your in a big city, why are you safe in your own
home without defense?

People break into homes in the city all of the time, so why
be a needless victim statistic.

Guns have saved the lives of many! Lets look at it that way,
shall we for a minute?

[Sgt.Rocknroll]

I don't see anything wrong with that.  Bush and his father were almost certainly the two most rampant, total, blatant, utterly unrestrained psychopaths to ever hold American political office.

I'm really, really glad thats only your opinion, one that i disagree with.
While I'm no Bush lover by any stretch of the imagination, both were far, far better than the alternative.
Of course thats my opinion..and like certain body parts, everyone has one....

Peace
Rock

[Sgt.Rocknroll]

Scrap em both   Set me up as king  I will fix things

Ahh a benevolent dictator...now that's the ticket....

[ArMaP]

Ahh a benevolent dictator...now that's the ticket....

They all start as benevolent...

[Sgt.Rocknroll]

My future Daughter in Law sent this to me...Thought it was apropos...

[rdunk]

I don't see anything wrong with that.  Bush and his father were almost certainly the two most rampant, total, blatant, utterly unrestrained psychopaths to ever hold American political office.

A totally nuts statement, in my opinion - and I am a Texan.

I do assume you are simply proffering your uninformed opinion??