TAP VS The Military Mind

[Amaterasu]

Not to me. To me, someone that lies is someone that cannot be trusted in what he/she says, someone that feigns emotions is someone that cannot be trusted when he/she displays some emotion.

So...  You have never been in a place and smiled and nodded to a stranger that You really couldn't care less about?  Giving the impression that maybe You did?

I think You are seeing this as an ACTIVE behavior I am speaking of.  There's a BIG difference between trying to make anOther believe You care (active) and smiling warmly when You're introduced to someOne who You will likely never meet again (passive).

There's a big difference between how, say, gangs would behave in a presumed-armed society than the one We have now.

I wouldn't be able to live with myself knowing that I was a liar.

There We go again, equating social behavior (passive) with an act of willful deceit (active).  Is discretion lying?

Even in an imaginary, fairytale perfect TAP, people will be responsible for their own actions, and people should respect each other (or not) because of what they do and how they act, so a liar will still be a liar, a faker will still be a faker, and I cannot have full respect for people like that, so I cannot act like that.

Whether or not One "should" respect Others for behavior, it clearly is failing in this rude society We live in now.  Choosing NOT to be rude on the off chance someOne might die is hardly "lying."

Yes, respect of strangers meeting, but not because I am expecting the other person to carry a weapon, respect because, to me, a stranger starts out as being another person like me, with things that make them happy, sad, nervous, mad, calm, etc., so I begin by respecting their own personality so I will not affect them negatively with anything I may say or do.

And for One sensitive to that, which is most of Us, that works well enough.  But clearly Our society is devolving in that, and I say it is because We are presumed helpless. 

In the same way I respect a snail that goes about it's business, trying to live it's live like all other living creatures, even if I don't know if a snail can be happy or sad, I do know that there's no reason for me to make it's live worse than it may be.

And ArMaP. that is how it SHOULD be - and if everyOne was like You, I am sure guns would be moot.  But They're not.  People assault (mostly for money).  People rape.  People molest.  And governments tyrannize.  This last is the BIG reason to have arms.

I don't need to eliminate crime in order to know that the world is a better place with less shootings.

Yeah.  But that's not relevant to the point I was making, is it?  The point was that as long as We have a reason for crime (tyranny, money, etc.) We will have a need for defending against it.

With stigmergic governance there is no controlMIND (governMENT) to tyrannize and with everything freely available to All, the motive to assault and thieve is gone.  So too is the better part of rape - rape is not a sexual thing (though it has sexual elements).  It is a CONTROL thing.  When We all have 100% control of Our lives, controlling something becomes far less imperative.

That is a major aspect of TAP and why, though it is not "utopia," it is a hell of a lot better than what We operate under NOW.

[zorgon]

Sadly, until We no longer need to account for energy, there will be crime. 

Not all crimes are related to energy or money. In fact the most dastardly crimes have nothing to do with it. and TAP will not effect them one bit 

One example would be a psychopath setting fire to a building as a trap to kill first responders for sport

[ArMaP]

So...  You have never been in a place and smiled and nodded to a stranger that You really couldn't care less about?  Giving the impression that maybe You did?

No, why would I do that? 

There We go again, equating social behavior (passive) with an act of willful deceit (active).  Is discretion lying?

I don't understand what you mean by that.

Whether or not One "should" respect Others for behavior, it clearly is failing in this rude society We live in now.  Choosing NOT to be rude on the off chance someOne might die is hardly "lying."

It's not honest, and, to me, that's the same thing.

I choose not to be rude because I think there's no reason for it, in the same way I may be rude (or cruel, as people have said) when I think I should.

The fact that it may be failing is meaningless to me, I am not on a popularity contest.

And for One sensitive to that, which is most of Us, that works well enough.  But clearly Our society is devolving in that, and I say it is because We are presumed helpless.

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by that either.

And ArMaP. that is how it SHOULD be - and if everyOne was like You, I am sure guns would be moot.  But They're not.  People assault (mostly for money).  People rape.  People molest.  And governments tyrannize.  This last is the BIG reason to have arms.

In the same way I don't think we should feign respect to someone we know is armed I don't think that being armed is any kind of solution for tyranny.
Weapons (of all kinds) is what the tyrants use to force their power onto other people, knowledge is what they fear, so that's what the people should use to remove the tyrants' power.

Yeah.  But that's not relevant to the point I was making, is it?  The point was that as long as We have a reason for crime (tyranny, money, etc.) We will have a need for defending against it.

That's true.

With stigmergic governance there is no controlMIND (governMENT) to tyrannize and with everything freely available to All, the motive to assault and thieve is gone.  So too is the better part of rape - rape is not a sexual thing (though it has sexual elements).  It is a CONTROL thing.  When We all have 100% control of Our lives, controlling something becomes far less imperative.

Sorry, more things I don't understand. What's "stigmergic governance"? And "controlMIND"? And why did you write "(governMENT)"? All that only confuses me.

Edit: I noticed now that the last part was an answer to pimander, so maybe I was not supposed to understand it.
The way this forum software removes quotes makes quoting a post with quotes confusing, or maybe all those cakes I ate are making side effects.

[Pimander]

And governments tyrannize.  This last is the BIG reason to have arms.

I have refuted this point several times.  You have either ignored my posts or need reminding....

This was the point that A51Watcher made about debating...  One makes a point, the next person says why they differ and gives reasons as opposed to ignoring their point then repeating what has already been refuted.

The same point that I have tried to make but been largely ignored (which happens a lot when there is no real argument to counter you).  All the guns.  All the homicide that comes with them but still a rogue government.

Still suppression of anything resembling energy independence.

Still an unelected president allowed into and voted back into office.

Still perpetually at war.

Still poverty in the "richest country on the planet" while multi-nationals and bankers pay next to no tax.

Still ripped off by the federal reserve and world bank.

Still ripped off for health care while people die untreated.

Still allow yourselves to be governed by people who can side-step your constitution using executive orders.

Don't worry though.  You have a gun so you are free.

DON'T MAKE ME LAUGH

So what difference have your guns made then?  Take a pea shooter to a helicopter gun-ship?  Your guns have made no difference...

Transition to TAP?  You can't even push for proper democracy in your own country.

So I have challenged what you are saying.  Do you have a reasoned response or not?  If your guns are so great why is crime so bad in the USA?  Homicide?  Could it be that you guys have missed the point?

[Amaterasu]

Not all crimes are related to energy or money. In fact the most dastardly crimes have nothing to do with it. and TAP will not effect them one bit 

One example would be a psychopath setting fire to a building as a trap to kill first responders for sport

Yeah, z.  And I never said We would do away with ALL crime - again, I point out in several of My pieces that the crimes of passion (jealous spouses, etc.) and the EXTREMELY rare psychopath who actually does things like You describe are not crimes TAP can "fix" - just the 99.99999 % of crime which is motivated at some level by money/power or the lack thereof.

[Amaterasu]

No, why would I do that? 

Because You made eye contact and it's a polite thing to do?

I wouldn't be able to live with myself knowing that I was a liar.

There We go again, equating social behavior (passive) with an act of willful deceit (active).  Is discretion lying?

I don't understand what you mean by that.

You seem to be equating a smile at a stranger You made eye contact with but really don't care about with a form of "lying."  Or keeping Your mouth closed (discretion) when somebody at a party starts spouting something You don't agree with but You know it might get ugly if You speak up...  That's "lying?"

Whether or not One "should" respect Others for behavior, it clearly is failing in this rude society We live in now.  Choosing NOT to be rude on the off chance someOne might die is hardly "lying."

It's not honest, and, to me, that's the same thing.

Well, I can see you likely DO think smiles at strangers and using discretion is "lying."  Ok.

I choose not to be rude because I think there's no reason for it, in the same way I may be rude (or cruel, as people have said) when I think I should.

Ok.  But most tend towards some discretion.

The fact that it may be failing is meaningless to me, I am not on a popularity contest.

Are You that dissociated from society?  It sounds like is and I'm so sad if You are.

[Amaterasu]

I have refuted this point several times.  You have either ignored my posts or need reminding....

This was the point that A51Watcher made about debating...  One makes a point, the next person says why they differ and gives reasons as opposed to ignoring their point then repeating what has already been refuted.

The same point that I have tried to make but been largely ignored (which happens a lot when there is no real argument to counter you).  All the guns.  All the homicide that comes with them but still a rogue government.

Still suppression of anything resembling energy independence.

Still an unelected president allowed into and voted back into office.

Still perpetually at war.

Still poverty in the "richest country on the planet" while multi-nationals and bankers pay next to no tax.

Still ripped off by the federal reserve and world bank.

Still ripped off for health care while people die untreated.

Still allow yourselves to be governed by people who can side-step your constitution using executive orders.

Don't worry though.  You have a gun so you are free.

DON'T MAKE ME LAUGH

So what difference have your guns made then?  Take a pea shooter to a helicopter gun-ship?  Your guns have made no difference...

Transition to TAP?  You can't even push for proper democracy in your own country.

So I have challenged what you are saying.  Do you have a reasoned response or not?  If your guns are so great why is crime so bad in the USA?  Homicide?  Could it be that you guys have missed the point?

Pim, don't make ME laugh.  When this system devolves to the point the troops are invading Our towns, We will know the value of Our guns.  Also, what goes VASTLY underreported in the "news" are the many, many cases where guns kept crimes from happening.  They don't want THAT out there working against Their main aim which is to disarm most of Us.

[zorgon]

When this system devolves to the point the troops are invading Our towns, We will know the value of Our guns.

When it gets to THAT point your guns will be useless because they will have 30,000 plus unmanned Predator drones over your head that can singly take out your house and city block... and from a distance that you won't even see them

Their main aim which is to disarm most of Us.

If that was their main aim... we would already be disarmed

[zorgon]

If your guns are so great why is crime so bad in the USA? 

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."

Unfortunately for us, there are many bad apples around the world that burn their papers and come in under false pretenses

Jamaica cleans out their jails and bans Rasta  but Canada and the US welcome them

Castro cleans out the jails in Cuba and sticks them on a boat and sends then to Florida

Muslims extremists escaping being hunted down claim refuge status then stir up sh!t once they get here

Mexican drug lords and their hoards of affiliated bad dudes swarm into the country from the south and form gangs

Shall I go on?

THAT is why their is so much crime in the US

[Sgt.Rocknroll]

I have refuted this point several times.  You have either ignored my posts or need reminding....

The same point that I have tried to make but been largely ignored (which happens a lot when there is no real argument to counter you).  All the guns.  All the homicide that comes with them but still a rogue government.

I don't think anyone needs to be reminded over and over and over again what your position is. I think everyone is VERY aware of where you stand. You seem to want to beat the dead horse over and over  and over again. I think that most members here just
DON'T agree with you. Move on

Rock

[Pimander]

Pim, don't make ME laugh.  When this system devolves to the point the troops are invading Our towns, We will know the value of Our guns.

You still haven't dealt with my point.  All of the above tyrannical acts by your government. So what good did the guns do?  How free have they really made you?  I'd say the governments guns have secured your freedom in a bigger way than your own.

[Pimander]

I don't think anyone needs to be reminded over and over and over again what your position is. I think everyone is VERY aware of where you stand. You seem to want to beat the dead horse over and over  and over again.

It isn't a dead horse at all, it's called a debate.  An important issue for millions of people including the families of people who continue to be needlessly murdered every time a person loses the plot.  I'm winning it as nobody has anything to counter my point.

You may not like it but there is a massive collective delusion about the effectiveness of guns in protecting freedom in the modern world.  Most of the planet know about it and do things in a more civilised way these days.

And yes, I agree that some people do need guns.  If I lived out a long way from a big population centre in Nevada, I'd want a gun.  Some people are mentally equipped to use guns.  But do they really need assault rifles in small towns?  But my point still stands.  It also stands unchallenged by anything other than something that was true a hundred or more years ago - that guns protect citizens from government tyranny - which they so obviously do not in modern America.

[petrus4]

It isn't a dead horse at all, it's called a debate.  An important issue for millions of people including the families of people who continue to be needlessly murdered every time a person loses the plot.  I'm winning it as nobody has anything to counter my point.

No, you aren't winning anything, I'm sorry.  We've simply acknowledged that we disagree with you, and we've moved on.

Also; you accused me earlier of making appeals to emotion, but I honestly haven't seen anything but emotion from you where this topic is concerned, I'm afraid.  Continually mentioning dead kids isn't really indicative of detachment.

[Somamech]

I just came away from a rural place where people have guns and Severe Prejudice.

I personally would choose to reforest and let the Eagles and Hawks come in and do the Clean Up Biz myself.  But hey I seen that happen and others aint

Seeing a family of 6 wegde-tail Eagles "HUNT" is something BBC would Jizz over, and most likely most here  

[zorgon]

And yes, I agree that some people do need guns.

Hmmm on a whim i did a little search  very little actually

Found this on the first hit


UK Gun Ownership Up, Deaths Down Offering Stark Comparison with US Figures

Gun deaths last year in the UK at 51 were down by 18 percent , yet private gun ownership continues to grow with 1.8 million legally held. Obviously there's no way of telling how many illegal guns are in circulation.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dan-ehrlich/uk-gun-ownership-up-deaths-down_b_1209967.html

Seems you guys are following in our foot path...