Sometimes Good Things Happen , Too

[Eighthman]

I simply think that punishment for drug use should not cause more harm than the actual drug use itself - and that has often been the case with cannabis in particular. In the case of Portugal, the results seem mixed but if that's the whole of it, then why invest so much time, money and lives in fighting drugs?

I also get angry when I observe how rights under the Constitution have been eroded by the war on drugs and how careless police/SWAT teams kill innocent people from obsessing with drugs.

When I was young, I had my own lab to experiment with. Today, it would be nearly impossible and in some areas it is almost automatically supposed that anyone with lab glassware, etc. is a lawbreaker. Why is it that I can buy dangerous drugs from the dark 'net but I can't get organic chemicals for improving arterial stiffness?

I'm damned tired of seeing freedom eroded and as an older gentleman believe we need to leave the world to our young together with at least as much opportunity and liberty as we benefited from.

[burntheships]

@Eightman,

You have some very valid points there.

[ArMaP]

In the case of Portugal, the results seem mixed but if that's the whole of it, then why invest so much time, money and lives in fighting drugs?

Mixed? Why do you say that?

[Fruitbat]

Well, well. Here we have the classic argument about drugs.

I bet the anti-pot protagonists like to have a drink from time to time..
Now THERE is a bloody dangerous drug, that should definitely be prohibited, if ruined lives and health issues are a concern.

At least the authorities are starting to do something about tobacco, now...

FB.

[Amaterasu]

yeah i'm kinda with sarge on this ..i don't have much tact either

We were told it causes criminal insanity by "reputable" sources, by the MSM
and you believed it.. now that's laughable

I agree!  Because it isn't true!  LOL!  *I* didn't believe it, but the People back in the 50's that never heard of it before - and were told that as Their initial awareness from the Ones that back then everyOne assumed could be trusted - did.  Thust public support for the "menace" eradication that allowed ever more intrusion into Our lives.

i don't want to be operated on by a surgeon who is using..i don't want to be a passenger of a
driver who is using...pilot, bus, train, firend..what have you
i don't want to be at a cash register of a user...
etc...etc..etc..

20 to 1 You have been at a number of cash registers of "users" while They were using.  What a menace, that You would not be able to tell.  (I balanced to the penny as a teller back in the day, "using" and handling $100,000 in cash every day.)  Be that as it may, choose Your doctors by that criterium, and Your drivers. 

you want to sit on your butt at home and use.. do it..but don't go all poor pitiful you are being pickin  on crap

When I have had work, the use was never an issue.  Please quit spreading the propaganda that using necessarily = "sit[ting] on your butt at home and use."  And what are You referring to about being picked on?

the laws are slow to change..but they are..stuff is legal in many places now..we'll see how that goes..
i'm waiting for the air space above colorado  to be quaranteen to planes...on the basis of impairment to pilots...bwhahahahahahahah

LOL!

you use pot..you work in a drug clinic..cleaning up

You use aspirin (which has actually killed People - in fair numbers) and...? 

You are suggesting that because People were duped back in the day and the use of cannabis was made illegal on lies and disinfo, that because it is labeled a crime, We should "punish?"  Heh.

[Amaterasu]

Amy,

About your statements: People are already free to choose drugs,
or reject them. No one is forced to use illegal drugs of any kind;
regardless of whether any Government has provided "truthful"
information.

Now about the statement that "if drugs were free"

If illegal drugs were "free" more lives would be ruined by them

Give the mechanisms by which these "lives have been ruined."  Like Krockodil?  Do You think THAT would be the choice if good, unadulterated heroin was available?  (60 Minutes did a thing, YEARS ago, about how there is no OD level of PURE heroin, and that all deaths caused by "heroin" were actually caused by adulterants used to make more money.)

[ArMaP]

Well, well. Here we have the classic argument about drugs.

I don't think it was, at least originally.

From what I understand of the article linked to on the opening post, the U.S. Sentencing Commission decided to reduce the drug trafficking sentences, but, at least from my point of view, everybody things this applies to the everyday user.

Nobody cleared my doubts about it, as usual.

[Eighthman]

http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/12/05/us-forced-guilty-pleas-drug-cases

Poor black people are commonly forced into pleas by prosecutors.  There may also be a presumption of dealing based on quantity.  So, some "dealers" may be innocent.

There is a recent case in NY in which a black man spent 25 years in prison because prosecutors hid evidence that he was innocent.  It is hard for me to imagine such evil.

As for Portugal, I'm not sure what to believe as to decriminalization but the best info seems to suggest that it hasn't been a disaster so why waste fights about it?

[burntheships]

  (60 Minutes did a thing, YEARS ago, about how there is no OD level of PURE heroin, and that all deaths caused by "heroin" were actually caused by adulterants used to make more money.)

Amy,

I would not consider 60 minutes a comprehensive source
on unadulturated Heroin.     By your own definition,
they are just a disinfo MSM source.

Recreational heroin use is a dangerous
thing, a deadly idea to be sure. 

People do all kinds of things in life for thrills,
thrills become addictions. Addictions kill.

No one is forced to use drugs.
And those who do, do so at their own
choosing. Like jumping off a cliff,
dont expect people to find logic in
that action, unless it was to suicide.

 

[sky otter]

You are suggesting that because People were duped back in the day and the use of cannabis was made illegal on lies and disinfo, that because it is labeled a crime, We should "punish?"  Heh.


I'm not 'suggesting' anything.. I was giving an opinion opposite of your opinion.

and since neither of us is likely to change our minds on this issue there is no reason to read this thread  or post in it anymore


apologies to 8thman for going sideways on his post..sadly such is a forum..any bloody idiot who signs up can comment..and usually does..

[Fruitbat]

Sometimes indeed good things do happen.

for example: My excessively long post appealing for reason to prevail on this issue doesn't seem to have appeared!

FB!

[Amaterasu]

Details of what?

Really, ArMaP?  You can't figure out where I was going there?  Really?  You said:  " I know several cases (two of which ended in death of the drug user) of people having their lives ruined by drugs."  I asked for the particulars - the details like what drug They chose, what constituted a ruining of the life...  In fact, define what a "ruined life" is.

I may be unaware of how things happen in the US (I don't know about other English speaking countries, and I don't know if you know either), and this is about all drugs, not just about cannabis and your own personal opinions. In case you haven't noticed, the world is more than just Amaterasu. 

Yeah, so?  I was just pointing out that the whole "illegal drugs" thing is money/control driven.

And young people (the ones most likely to be affected by drugs) listen carefully to what the MSM says, and they never listen to their friends, right?

Huh?  What's that got to do with it - except that the lies left a lot of kids having no clue what They were getting into, seeing the lies of cannabis?

If there is real data please point to it.

Weirdly, though I read a dozen pages a few years ago pointing to the Congressional Record with those specific phrases shown, today I cannot find one page that discusses it.  But I did find some general history about the fact that race was used as a cover for financial interests to push the stamp act through.

http://www.drugwarrant.com/articles/why-is-marijuana-illegal/
http://gunnison.hubpages.com/hub/Marijuana-History-and-Racial-Bias

And many more...

What actual facts?

The facts that cannabis causes loving behavior rather than brother killing brother, that rape is actually lett likely because it calms People down.

[Amaterasu]

Amy,

I would not consider 60 minutes a comprehensive source
on unadulturated Heroin.     By your own definition,
they are just a disinfo MSM source.

Recreational heroin use is a dangerous
thing, a deadly idea to be sure. 

People do all kinds of things in life for thrills,
thrills become addictions. Addictions kill.

No one is forced to use drugs.
And those who do, do so at their own
choosing. Like jumping off a cliff,
dont expect people to find logic in
that action, unless it was to suicide.

First, it was a 60 Minutes with Mike Wallace - who did try to provide truth for Us as He could - and was buried post haste.  When such shows are buried that quickly, it's clear it hit something They don't want Us to know.  Mike went around to several labs that were testing pure heroin, trying to find an OD amount.  The conclusion was that there was none, though a big enough dose did cause prolonged sleeping.

Recreational use of heroin from the street, yes.  But I begin to doubt that it is the drug itself.  And besides, statistically speaking, no One uses it.

Addictions do not kill.  Stresses, adulterants, money motive, they kill.  And besides, who are WE to tell ANYONE They can't do any given thing with Their own body?  Laws don't change the choices People make (except very rarely).

You keep saying no One is forced to do drugs.  Yeah, but what has that to do with Us forcing People NOT to use certain substances?  Yes, People are forced (when caught) to NOT use some drugs.  But I suppose it's better to give up the freedom to choose what One does with One's body for the "safety" of having "laws" in place that really do nothing but give the Feds the in to harass the populace.

Thinkin' on ol' Benny Franklin here.

[burntheships]

  Mike went around to several labs that were testing pure heroin, trying to find an OD amount.  The conclusion was that there was none, though a big enough dose did cause prolonged sleeping.

Well when you can proof that up, I will be waiting.

Recreational use of heroin from the street, yes.  But I begin to doubt that it is the drug itself.  And besides, statistically speaking, no One uses it.

Addictions do not kill.  Stresses, adulterants, money motive, they kill.  And besides, who are WE to tell ANYONE They can't do any given thing with Their own body? 

I keep saying it, drug use is a choice!

You have said "if drugs were free"...

If drugs were free and One could choose them or not,

You keep saying no One is forced to do drugs.  Yeah, but what has that to do with Us forcing People NOT to use certain substances? 

Yes, I do keep saying that, because fact is using drugs is a choice;
that was in answer to your statement above! "if...one could choose
them or not".

No one is forced to use drugs! People do choose to use them or not

No one is forcing people to "not use certain substances".
If people are so bent on using addictive drugs, who can stop them?

However saying. as you have  "if drugs were free" seems you
advocate "free drugs for all".

[zorgon]

So now that it is legal in Colorado and Washington....

...have they released the users that were caught before the change?