Malaysian passenger plane crashes in Ukraine near Russian border: Ifax

[spacemaverick]

There's such a shell and pea game going on, misinformation, outright deception...

You're right Wartoad.  No matter what the mystery some government or someone is going use a tragedy for their advantage.  The innocent people are the one's that almost always pay the price.  They are what power hungry dictators or lousy politicians call collateral damage in the great scheme of things.  I just do not have the words to put out their the disgust I have for people who do that.  Some people blame the Russians, some blame Ukrainians, some blame the separatists.  I blame all the powers that manipulated and influenced the Ukraine and sold them weapons and the major powers are guilty of this.  It is always this way it seems and has been since beginning of time.  It is also the evil side of human nature that is being fed or led in an evil direction for whatever reason.  I better back off this before I start going off on a rant.

Sorry for going off on a tangent on this thread but this infuriates me to no end and frustrates me that we can't fix it.

[The Matrix Traveller]

So WHAT is this World really for or is about ?

WHAT is going on and WHY ?


IF we ask the Right Questions we get the Right Answers.

If we ask the wrong questions we get the Wrong answers.

So WHAT are the Questions we should be asking as it is obvious we have been asking
the Wrong Questions for the last few thousand years it would appear.   

[spacemaverick]

Now the strange stories, distractions and whatever else starts:

http://news.yahoo.com/rebel-leader-gives-bizarre-account-plane-crash-182256709.html

A top pro-Russia rebel commander in eastern Ukraine has given a bizarre version of events surrounding the Malaysian jetliner crash — suggesting many of the victims may have died days before the plane took off.

The pro-rebel website Russkaya Vesna on Friday quoted Igor Girkin as saying he was told by people at the crash site that "a significant number of the bodies weren't fresh," adding that he was told they were drained of blood and reeked of decomposition.

The Malaysia Airlines Boeing-777 was shot down Thursday, killing all 298 people aboard. The plane was flying 10,000 meters above an area where Ukrainian forces have been fighting separatist rebels. Each side accuses the other of downing the plane.

U.S. intelligence authorities said a surface-to-air missile brought down the plane, and U.S. Ambassador Samantha Power told the U.N. Security Council in New York on Friday that the missile was likely fired from a rebel-held area near the Russian border.

Girkin, also known as Strelkov and allegedly a former Russian military intelligence agent, said he couldn't confirm the information. But it's sure to add to the intense emotions surrounding the crash, with the rebels accused of shooting down the plane.
Girkin said "Ukrainian authorities are capable of any baseness."

He claimed that a large amount of blood serum and medications were found in the wreckage.

[PLAYSWITHMACHINES]

Yes i am saddened by the images.

Jeez, it will take me days to sift the info coming in, but; Get to the truth, we will.

Maverick, you have posed some important questions that need to be answered, right now i will wait until all evidence is in, but based on events in the last 48 hours i am convinced he sent Spetznaz troops in there, & only they could have had the brains to operate such a system.
This looks like a direct stab at Holland, and now they are in trouble, for i live here

For i will never forgive, nor forget, those that took the lives of my freinds.

Be prepared for death & destruction, for the English be angry.

[robomont]

300 blackwater were sent in at the beginning of this mess.plus ukraine nazis started the fight in the beginning during the protest.the ukraine nazis were funded by zionist out of the usa.these nazis /rebels seized the russian equipment from ukraine army.so either putin wants a war which i doubt or blackwater /retired special forces helped the rebels launch them.neither ukraine or russia would do this imho.their govs have too much class.rebels would wish to draw attention and the usa wants war.
tptb lost their carbon tax so now money from war and police state are the fallback position.a ticket and a fine in every peasants pocket.

[robomont]

just went back to forums and this smells like 911 2.0,
no offence intended toward you or your country pwm but i believe nato is psyoping the netherlands.

[spacemaverick]

I am taking in all info right now.  I am working the next 4 days.  My background in the army was air defense so I have some input for sure.  I am using my phone right now.  If you want some close up pics go to liveleak.com under Ukraine.  Warning....graphic...taken by rebels...

[ArMaP]

For i will never forgive, nor forget, those that took the lives of my freinds.

Be prepared for death & destruction, for the English be angry.

See how easy it is to get other people involved.

[spacemaverick]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/flaw-buk-missile-system-might-214129081.html

Military experts think that a Buk missile — an easy-to-use type of anti-aircraft weapon — is the most likely culprit in the destruction of a Malaysian Airlines passenger jet that's thought to have been shot down over eastern Ukraine.

These missile launchers are specially created for hitting high-altitude aircraft, and can fire at targets of up to 80,000 feet.

But unless linked to other weapons or an air traffic control system, they are almost incapable of telling the difference between military and civilian aircraft. The Buk is mobile, easy to use, and capable of hitting aircraft at all but the most outlandish altitudes. Yet as the MH17 disaster proves, that comes with a huge potential drawback, especially when the weapon is in the hands of people incapable of using it responsibly.

Pro-Russian separatists have apparently admitted that they have Buk missiles. These weapons reach far higher altitudes than the shoulder-fired rocket launchers that pro-Russian separatists have been using to destroy Ukrainian aircraft during the past week, high enough that they could reach the over 30,000-feet altitude at which the airliner was flying.

The missiles are straightforward to operate and work as stand-alone weapons — they can function outside of a sophisticated networked air defense system.

While that's useful in some respects it also makes it unnervingly easy to make a mistake, particularly for guerrilla or non-conventional fighters who are capable of firing the easy-to-use missiles, but don't have the training needed to distinguish between civilian and military aircraft by sight.

As one expert explained to Technology Review, the Buk's ease of usability is also what makes the weapon so prone to tragic and costly errors like the MH17 crash.

The system cannot tell the difference between civilian and military-type aircraft based on their transponder signatures alone. In order to tell the difference between targets, it would need to be interfaced with other weapons systems that can work off of additional information.

Being a Soviet design, the user interface is fairly simple, says Michael Pietrucha, a former F-4G and F-15E electronic warfare officer and expert on air defenses. Pietrucha says he trained with German forces operating a similar Russian-built system during the 1990s.

Pietrucha says that the Buk variant operated by the rebels might have been especially unable to distinguish between civilian and military air traffic because of a quirk related to aircraft transponders. The transponder is a device that broadcasts an aircraft's identity when a radar "interrogates" it for information.

Military and civilian aircraft often use the same transponder modes and therefore that signal is not used as a "discriminator" for a military targeting system, Pietrucha says. The system has to be tied into the national air traffic control system to use that information effectively.

So the Buk can pick up the signal of an aircraft. But if it's operating in standalone mode, it can't tell whether that aircraft is a military target, or a jetliner with nearly 300 people onboard.

As Thomas Gibbons-Neff reported in the Washington Post, the Buk can be interfaced with other systems, but U.S. intelligence sources believe the Buk was the only one anti-aircraft system operating in the area of the crash at the time the plane was shot down.

The transponder explanation seems likeliest here: Whatever unit shot down MH17 simply couldn't see if it was a civilian or military aircraft — they could just see it was an aircraft in their airspace — because it wasn't hooked up to a system that would have made such recognition possible.

On some models of the weapon, radar systems are rudimentary at best. With untrained irregular soldiers at the helm, even a linked system could have made a terrible mistake. To the right is a GIF of a Buk M2 surface-to-air system in action. The radar and firing interface are relatively simple and user-friendly.

"This definitely could have been an error," Steve Zaloga, an expert on missile systems at the Teal Group, told Technology Review.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDXScnEKaP0&feature=player_detailpage

[spacemaverick]

To down an aircraft you do not have to directly hit it.  There is such a thing as a proximity fuse.  All you have to do is interrupt the air flow by a close proximity explosion which will throw the aircraft out of control and the g-forces will tear the plane apart.  #2, You can take an aircraft out of the air if the missile puts enough shrapnel into the aircraft which promotes it breaking up in flight due to the physical forces.  #3, there is a missile that has a bar come out of the warhead that literally can cut an aircraft into.  #4  Heat seeker - this missile lock onto the heat signature of the aircraft (engine or engines) and homes in on that and can be set for contact or proximity fusing.

The high altitude missiles are usually controlled by radar and a professional soldier will rely on some sort of aircraft recognition be it an electronic signature from a transponder indicating friend or foe (or unknown).  These missile units usually have a mobile command and control with a higher headquarters giving the go-no go order.  The missiles are controlled by radar.  In this case it is not proven which BUC system was used.  The more advanced the system, the more advanced the radar along with other means of proper identification.  You don't want to shoot down your own aircraft.

My opinion is that the rebels screwed up and jumped the gun and that the shoot down may have come from the hair trigger finger of a rebel leader in charge of the missile launcher.  I could be wrong but that is what it seems to me.  As a matter of experience from me, I spent 8 years as a air defense crewman, air defense squad leader and platoon sergeant during the seventies.  Basically the tactics have not changed greatly, only the weapons systems.  In this case theories will abound and muddy the waters

For low level the aircraft recognition will fall to the unit leader or squad leader making visual confirmation.

[spacemaverick]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsgQ83irr0o&feature=player_detailpage


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-18/did-a-missile-down-the-malaysian-jet-over-ukraine/5606156

[spacemaverick]

Rebel Commander is Russian agent?

[PLAYSWITHMACHINES]

just went back to forums and this smells like 911 2.0,
no offence intended toward you or your country pwm but i believe nato is psyoping the netherlands.

None taken Robo, i was just pssd when i saw this, i have been offline until yesterday. I am calm now & will look at the info.
The whole annexation of the Ukraine is a big deal for Ivan, they don't want Ukraine getting too freindly with Europe.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not supporting one side or another, they are both treacherous bar stewards who would sell their own kids for a quick profit.

Are they being used? Definitely.
The time stamp on the video is a dead giveaway.
As far as i know none of my family or freinds were on that plane, but it was close, too damn close We marched into Nijmegen on friday in silence, it was surreal to say the least......

Oil hit 108 bucks a barrel on Friday as well, when it tops 110 you always get a war.
As usual, follow the money.

ETA; There are a lot of millionaires over here, they like their caviar. the netherlands already had strained relations with ivan because of some diplomats & their drivers beating up reporters etc and a russian guy got snuffed in Amsterdam (possibly russian maffia) so we sent Putin some tulips to sweeten him up
I would tell them to stuff their gas pipeline & build a nuclear reactor on their border

[PLAYSWITHMACHINES]

So, someone gave Igor the Trigger Happy a high tech missile capable of bringing down that plane.

Europe's civil air authority give conflicting advice ranging from 'perfectly safe' to 'no-fly zone'.  Normally at 35,000 feet you would be perfectly safe from someone with a SAM missile etc so i guess that is where the confusion came from.
But that flight was too low & too far north, why?

And despite the MSM picture of Igor proudly displaying that toy, he must have only just realised what he had done (or he's a good actor) because he dropped it on the ground & crossed himself. Of course that part wasn't shown, but kudo's to the dutch media because they showed the whole film of that incident not just that one photo, which seems to be from another angle thus another camera/phone.

This stinks more than a dead herring in a compost heap, my freinds

ETA; No disrespect mr Putin, but i still hate your guts, even before all this, you are dancing to the strings of the puppet masters like Merkel & the rest, trying to instigate a one world system while at the same time trying to get Europe involved in your dirty little war.

[spacemaverick]

A very likely scenario with a high probability that Ukranian fighter jets may have used MH 17 to mask their presence could have taken place.  This would be highly plausible.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/report-ukranian-fighter-jets-hid-behind-passenger-plane-pulled-away-dropped-bombs-hid-behind-plane.html

And then again, this could be propaganda.  I don't think we will ever know the real truth behind this or MH 370.