STS-80 UFO Circle revisited

[Pimander]

Slightly off topic regarding that particular object but as you mention it.

It's worth noting Mitchell and Cooper stated they were aware of NO astronaut spaceflight encounters with UFOs, and Musgrave agrees. I think we can trust the real space travelers on this, and not waste anymore mass postings.

OK, once you posit that Mitchell and Cooper are actively lying about their space experiences, you've cut the cord to eyewitness reality checking and are free to believe any imaginary factoid your heart desires. But can you produce a single case of a NASA person ever losing their pension, or any other retribution, for talking about UFOs?

No.  That does not make them reliable witnesses or liars though and is a bit of a straw man surely.

Cooper?  Have you decided Cooper is a reliable witness now?  Or will he say anything for money?  It is also worth noting that he claimed to be present when a saucer was filmed landing, and also, along with a whole squadron, saw hundreds of UFOs at high altitude in 1951?



Ed Mitchell also seems to be very interested in UFOs and is adamant they are important based on information given to him by personnel he knows.



Do we think these people are liars?  If so why should we believe Mitchell went to the Moon?  Or believe either of them when they say they saw nothing in space?  If they are not liars then what is God's name is going on?  A deception operation?

Jim, I am inclined to agree with you that the majority of space material videos doing the rounds on YouTube are nothing to do with aliens.  I am disinclined to agree that there is nothing significant in the videos that NASA do not fully understand, especially regarding plasma phenomena.  I also believe that NORAD have monitored objects in orbit that enter the atmosphere, apparently under intelligent control, that are not ours - whatever they might be.  I do not believe everything that current or former NASA employees say is gospel, as they are too easy to silence on "National Security" grounds (especially about the Apollo era but that is for another thread).

Did Mitchell and Cooper, after being psychologically assessed for their integrity by the armed forces and NASA, turn into liars or were they selected precisely for their ability to convincingly lie about Apollo and Gemini?

And can we cut the talk about shills even if you are the King here Zorgon?

Mitchell is not a liar and lots of personnel have told him we are not alone and case closed?

[Pimander]

Thanks for those links, but I was looking for the specs for the camera that made that specific video, as I have seen some references to camera(s) with a low light level mode, so I would like to know if that specific camera was one of those and if it was using that mode or not.

The Shuttle was fitted out to film near UV.  That is what I read somewhere.

Is that true in this case Jim?  If so then the object above the storm is a plasma in my opinion.

[zorgon]

Col.John Alexander at the last UFO Area 51 talk at the Atomic Museum here in Vegas made a comment

"BTW we track them by satellite" referring to non ice particle UFO's

I suppose he to is just making it up

[SerpUkhovian]

But can you produce a single case of a NASA person ever losing their pension, or any other retribution, for talking about UFOs?

The Powers That Be are not concerned with taking the pension of Astronauts talking about UFOs.  The PTB demonstrated the consequences of not being a team player up front and early with Gus Grissom.

[JimO]

The Powers That Be are not concerned with taking the pension of Astronauts talking about UFOs.  The PTB demonstrated the consequences of not being a team player up front and early with Gus Grissom.

Just my personal opinion, but anybody who uses a brave man's coffin as a soapbox for their malevolent ravings is in my view acting in a reprehensible, loathsome manner. Just saying.

[JimO]

....
Cooper?  Have you decided Cooper is a reliable witness now?  Or will he say anything for money?  It is also worth noting that he claimed to be present when a saucer was filmed landing, and also, along with a whole squadron, saw hundreds of UFOs at high altitude in 1951?

Cooper's testimony has weight when it's consistent with other witnesses and records, but is a lot harder to take seriously when every other witness and record runs contrary.

The Edwards case is a good example.

James McDonald investigated the Edwards story for his testimony to Congress in 1968, and found no landing gear, no landing, and no Cooper. His prepared testimony is here
http://www.ufoevidence.org/Newsite/Files/MacDonaldSubmissionUFOSymposium.pdf
and the report is "Case 41" on page 44. McDonald refers to interviewing "a third person who states that he inspected the prints in company with the two Askania operators and darkroom personnel" and some writers have interpreted this to be Cooper in disguise – but cameraman Bittick [who was at that review] is clear he didn't even know Cooper was on base, and in 1967-8 there was no chance McDonald was ever going to be allowed to interview a Mercury astronaut about some pre-NASA UFO story.


UFO investigator Brad Sparks interviewed witnesses and demolished Cooper's 'landing' claim, and his claimed connection with the Edwards case at all. NICAP report, 2009:
http://www.nicap.org/reports/570502edwardsafb_sparksaldrich.htm


Results of the SOLE investigation of the Germany story are similar. A dozen detailed responses from his fellow pilots, the unit's declassified records, the local Munich newspaper files and back issues of local UFO newsletters, Cooper's own family -- NOT a single other account corroborative of his story. Add in his wild "I was there" tales of space meteor storms and snapping views of Area-51 from Gemini-5 and seeing his own photos where you could read license plates, and you've got a guy who late in life would say anything to please his UFO-loving audiences, the last public groups interested in hosting him.

[thorfourwinds]

Cooper's testimony has weight when it's consistent with other witnesses and records, but is a lot harder to take seriously when every other witness and record runs contrary.

Greetings Jim:

Again, you use your 'remarkable' ability with the written word to continue to dance around the issue of whether or not you think Cooper is a liar, among other things.

OK, once you posit that Mitchell and Cooper are actively lying about their space experiences, you've cut the cord to eyewitness reality checking and are free to believe any imaginary factoid your heart desires.

Please stop with the continued obfuscations and simply answer the questions put forth, as we are asking fairly simple, straight-forward questions that you refuse to answer directly.

To make it really easy for you, here is just one:

Is Cooper lying or not, in your opinion?

YES or NO

Thanking you in advance for your time and consideration.

With great respect,



tfw
Peace Love Light
Liberty & Equality or Revolution

Hec'el oinipikte  (that we shall live)

[Sinny]

I personally would prefer to steer the conservation back to the STS- 80 UFO's in question... And would also like to know about the light spectrum the images were captured in.

I believe Cooper and some others to have an agenda of their own, but I'd rather that subject not distract from the objective.

[JimO]

I personally would prefer to steer the conservation back to the STS- 80 UFO's in question... And would also like to know about the light spectrum the images were captured in.

There were optional UV cameras on specific missions, but this is the spectrum response of the standard payload bay cameras during the years of interest.





For comparison, here's the transmissivity of the crew cabin windows:

[JimO]

The point I was trying to make about illumination is shown in this drawing. A typical 'space UFO' video sequence has this relative sun/shuttle/earth arrangement, with dots seen against receding horizon and some 'appearing' suddenly as they drift out of shuttle shadow.

[zorgon]

The whole UFO scene has always had this problem.

People say if it is TRUE why do astronauts and pilots not report them

When a pilot or astronaut DOES step up and speak, they are treated like a lunatic

The rest see this treatment and are more resloved NOT to speak.

In the early days of UFOlogy the Air Force and the MIB's would literally come to your house to explain it to you. This was enough to scare the story out of most people

Back in those days people were killed or made to vanish for speaking up.

THIS is the climate we are dealing with.

Now in modern times the charlatans and hoaxers have taken over from the MIB goons but the effect is the same. Very few people especially professionals will rick their career by speaking plainly, never mind whether or not they took any oath of silence

Most that do want to speak up do so as they get closer to death... but the problem there is that when you get close to that your memory is failing and you may not have all your faculties.  So most 'death bed confessions' are easy to debunk because the story is no longer perfect

Now take John Lear for a second....  you could go over to his house at any time and sit there talking  and SOMEONE would stop by to tell of an encounter. These people were pilots and military peaople  the last one I was there for was a tower controller at Nellis AFB

Now these people will tell John their story  in detail with sketches, dates and time... but they will NEVER go on public record.

John has about 20 4 drawer filing cabinets in the garage full of such reports. It's all old school on paper  not digital  THOUSANDS of reports from reliable witnesses who will not let their name be used

So Jim you can huff and you can puff  but you cannot blow the house down. Your continued attempts to stear away from any real question are a joke...

The fact that NASA won't answer straight questions from the public has built a general distrust for NASA, same as the government.

There are more people than ever today that are starting to doubt the Moon Landings... why> Because NASA forgot how they did it and are making every excuse not to go back

And those Mars Colony ideas... seriously?  What a joke

And it doesn't help when NASA does stuff like THIS



Is that a JOKE at our expense? Or are they showing us the truth in plain site?

And what about this one>  These are slides presented by a top NASA scientist at a science symposium. WHY are they deliberately FAKING a fossil trilobite on Mars and an artifact that looks like a car door handle?



A joke? well the joke is on them. What kind of a MORON would come up with a BS presentation like that when they KNOW how the public will react?

NASA is a Dinosaur  it needs to just role over and die... 

[zorgon]

Just my personal opinion, but anybody who uses a brave man's coffin as a soapbox for their malevolent ravings is in my view acting in a reprehensible, loathsome manner. Just saying.

So you are saying that if someone has had bad consequences happen as a result of not sticking to the official party line and has suffered personal loss, or death or has vanished under mysterious circumstances... we cannot point to that event and cry FOUL without being labeled "malevolent ,reprehensible, loathsome"?

You ask us for examples  when provided you dissect those example by whatever means you can come up with

Ya know... these were meant for Horses so they wouldn't be frightened by something unusual

[JimO]

.....
The fact that NASA won't answer straight questions from the public has built a general distrust for NASA, same as the government.....

You're just torqued that NASA hasn't admitted you were right all the time.

The record is spotty but I've seen JSC prepare detailed responses to a long number of inquiries on apparent flight anomalies -- so what happens? The responses are usually just ignored [and not even shared], or the NASA investigators are called fools and liars by people who learned about spaceflight from the back of cereal boxes.

It surprises you that further questions in that line have low priority?

Zorgon, tell the truth -- have you EVER seen a NASA response to such questions that changed your mind about an event?

[JimO]

The whole UFO scene has always had this problem.

People say if it is TRUE why do astronauts and pilots not report them

When a pilot or astronaut DOES step up and speak, they are treated like a lunatic

The rest see this treatment and are more resloved NOT to speak.....

So which astronauts have been treated as lunatics for saying they encountered a UFO on a spaceflight?

[easynow]

So .... apparently,

Oberg believes space debris can just stop and hold it's position ?