Pegasus Research Consortium

From the news article:

The Turin Shroud is not a medieval forgery, as has long been claimed, but could in fact date from the time of Christ's death, a new book claims.

Experiments conducted by scientists at the University of Padua in northern Italy have dated the shroud to ancient times, a few centuries before and after the life of Christ.

Many Catholics believe that the 14ft-long linen cloth, which bears the imprint of the face and body of a bearded man, was used to bury Christ's body when he was lifted down from the cross after being crucified 2,000 years ago.

The analysis is published in a new book, "Il Mistero della Sindone" or The Mystery of the Shroud, by Giulio Fanti, a professor of mechanical and thermal measurement at Padua University, and Saverio Gaeta, a journalist.

Scientists, including Prof Fanti, used infra-red light and spectroscopy – the measurement of radiation intensity through wavelengths – to analyse fibres from the shroud, which is kept in a special climate-controlled case in Turin.

The tests dated the age of the shroud to between 300 BC and 400AD.

Link to complete article from The Telegraph, dated 28 March 2013:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9958678/Turin-Shroud-is-not-a-medieval-forgery.html

I did suspect that the bacteria living on the shroud gave a date too late.

Carbon dating is pointless on things that microbes eat because you end up carbon dating the microbes a lot of the time.

Another problem with the way they've been dating it, the last sample taken was from a patch/repair, so any idiot would have known it wouldn't date accurately. Even me.

I watched that on History or Discovery and wondered how those people got their degrees.  ::)

Quote from: rdunk on March 28, 2013, 02:34:20 PM
From the news article:

...a new book claims.

Uhh huh 

QuoteExperiments conducted by scientists at the University of Padua in northern Italy have dated the shroud to ancient times, a few centuries before and after the life of Christ.

So the shroud was dated to a few centuries BEFORE and AFTER the life of Christ?  Seriously?

QuoteMany Catholics believe that the 14ft-long linen cloth, which bears the imprint of the face and body of a bearded man, was used to bury Christ's body when he was lifted down from the cross after being crucified 2,000 years ago.

Well of course they believe that... :P Does the book have verification that they were given the shroud to test?

QuoteScientists, including Prof Fanti, used infra-red light and spectroscopy – the measurement of radiation intensity through wavelengths – to analyse fibres from the shroud, which is kept in a special climate-controlled case in Turin.

Can you show me reports where "infra-red light and spectroscopy" is used as an acceptable dating method?

Quote from: zorgon on March 28, 2013, 09:55:10 PM
Uhh huh 

So the shroud was dated to a few centuries BEFORE and AFTER the life of Christ?  Seriously?

Well of course they believe that... :P Does the book have verification that they were given the shroud to test?

Can you show me reports where "infra-red light and spectroscopy" is used as an acceptable dating method?

Don't be such a sceptic, now I don't have anything to say about it.  :P

"Can you show me reports where "infra-red light and spectroscopy" is used as an acceptable dating method"?

That really is a question for the scientists here but............here is an excerpt taken from the below link:

Spectroscopic examination is the only method that allows conservators and art historians to precisely identify the materials artists used for their works. This information enables art historians and scholars to understand what artistic materials were available during a certain period in a particular region, and therefore illuminates trade routes and interactions among cultures. Spectroscopy may also help uncover the manufacturing methods used to fabricate artistic materials, providing valuable data about the development of technical skills over time.

Spectroscopy also enables scholars to date objects. Because some materials were available in particular regions and periods, the retrieval of pigments with a well-known date of invention allows art historians to date artifacts post quem. Other pigments may be known to have disappeared from the artists' palette, so their presence permits experts to date artifacts ante quem.


http://www.webexhibits.org/pigments/intro/spectroscopy.html

Yes, it does appear that these techniques are being used for types of "dating". Got any art work you want dated??  ;)

The problem (in this case) with any dating method is that it's possible to fake a shroud with old materials, so, even if the material is as old as Jesus, that doesn't mean that it wasn't made centuries after.

The shroud is nothing more than a "Scam" ... To make the followers BLIND and able to be led
by a bunch of "Primates", propagating "Roman Doctrine"...   :)

I like 'scams', especially this one! I'm a true believer. ;D

Well..........the cross is empty and the tomb is empty, so for me as a Christian, they are important symbols for what has happened. In that respect, so would be the shroud, if it is real, as this article discusses.

The authenticity of the shroud doesn't really matter, in the reality of the Christian faith. But, the man pictured on the shroud is an absolute representation of Jesus, with all the evidence of all of the various afflictions to his face and body, as is clearly described in the Bible, during the "passion of Christ". 

If the shroud is real...............then it is my thought that the remaining image was likely "burnt in" by the supernatural power, as Jesus was being "raised" from the dead!

Just my thoughts!   ;)

Quote from: ArMaP on March 29, 2013, 12:10:52 AM
The problem (in this case) with any dating method is that it's possible to fake a shroud with old materials, so, even if the material is as old as Jesus, that doesn't mean that it wasn't made centuries after.

That's true. 

The spectroscopic methods mentioned depend on comparisons with other old material that it is assumed we have an accurate date for.  What if the materials used for calibration are not accurately dated?  We have a chicken and egg situation if you ask me.

QuoteThe authenticity of the shroud doesn't really matter

that pretty much sums it all up nicely...

those of faith..believe

those that don't..question

Quote from: rdunk on March 28, 2013, 11:48:46 PM

Yes, it does appear that these techniques are being used for types of "dating". Got any art work you want dated??  ;)

rdunk,

You read my mind! I was thinking this same thing..

Quote from: burntheships on March 29, 2013, 04:00:18 AM
rdunk,

You read my mind! I was thinking this same thing..

Or maybe with this equipment, one of zorgon's hairs could be used to determine his real age - - like somewhere between 50 and 150 years ~~~~~!  :))

Well, Z would just pull out an old hair,
thats how he would get around it.

Quote from: ArMaP on March 28, 2013, 11:33:20 PM
Don't be such a sceptic, now I don't have anything to say about it.  :P

My apologies Herr Skeptic

... won't happen again :P

Quote from: rdunk on March 29, 2013, 02:15:49 AM
...so would be the shroud, if it is real,

The authenticity of the shroud doesn't really matter, in the reality of the Christian faith.

If the shroud is real...............

This is why I have issues with Christian logic   :o

...never let truth get in the way of a good story :D

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uhUeECLZfJE/SL6iP0_cEpI/AAAAAAAAATo/HeGOQsWAMPg/s320/Cristo+colega.jpg)

I am of the opinion that the figure depicted on the Shroud, isn't that of Christ but of Jacques de Molay, the last leader of the Templars.
He was crucified, burned and beheaded..... (Varying methods from various sources).
That great source Wikipedia says he was just burned :)

QuoteThe Shroud of Turin

Geoffroi de Charny (the French Knight who died at the 1356 battle of Poitiers) and his wife Jeanne de Vergy are the first reliably recorded owners of the Turin Shroud. This Geoffroi participated in a failed crusade under Humbert II of Viennois in the late 1340s.[25] He is sometimes confused with Templar Geoffroi de Charney.[26]
Historical origin of "Inquisition" charge of an idol of a bearded man

As stated above, of the five original accusations made against the Knights Templars one was the "worshipping of an idol of a man with a long beard". It specifically states: "...The cord which the Templars wore over the shirt day and night as a symbol of chastity had been consecrated by wrapping it around an idol in the form of a human head with a great beard, and this head was adored in the chapters..." [27] The image was never found. It never mentions the image to be de Molay. Further it seems to describe a rounded idol. If it existed at all (and was not just a product of torture), it could not have been the Shroud of Turin just by its description. There were many early iconic images of a bearded Jesus that existed at that time.[28]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_de_Molay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_de_Molay)

Either the idol that is referenced in that reference or the dead shroud of the Templar leader, it doesn't matter.
Catholics like worshiping symbols, idols, demons...... let them, the rest of us will get on with our lives!

I really should just not say anything, cause then I'll get angry and denounce 'heathens' and such  ::). So I won't except this. We, Catholics, don't worship anything other than God. We 'pray' to 'Saints' and the Virgin Mary to intercede on our behalf. 'To Pray for Us'....That's not worship. That's a plea. Whew!...I didn't call anyone names. And that's it for me.  8)


P.S. HE IS ALIVE!.... ;)

Quote from: Sgt.Rocknroll on March 29, 2013, 11:20:32 AM
P.S. HE IS ALIVE!.... ;)

You guys actually genuinely believe that God is a ZOMBIE?   You worship a ZOMBIE?  Now that's stretching my credulity and religion a bit too far.  Weirdos- the lot of you..  :o

I imagine you would think I was strange if I suggested that worshipping the undead is kind of..... Satanic?

Thank you Pim. I love you too!  ;D

Quote from: Sgt.Rocknroll on March 29, 2013, 12:28:00 PM
Thank you Pim. I love you too!  ;D

I'm teasing Sarge.  Catholics are no weirder than the rest of us loonies.  The zombie thing is very odd though lol

The Roman Church has been historically linked to Satanism or the creator of the physical universe by the gnostic tradition.  The Cathars paid for it in the form of the genocidal Albigensian Crusades.

QuoteThe Albigensian Crusade or Cathar Crusade (1209–1229) was a 20-year military campaign initiated by Pope Innocent III to eliminate Catharism in Languedoc, in the south of France. The Crusade was prosecuted primarily by the French crown and promptly took on a political flavour, resulting in not only a significant reduction in the number of practicing Cathars but also a realignment of Occitania, bringing it into the sphere of the French crown and diminishing the distinct regional culture and high level of Aragonese influence. The Cathars were a medieval Christian sect with a neo-manichaean philosophy. It originated from a reform movement within the Bogomil churches of Dalmatia and Bulgaria calling for a return to the Christian message of perfection, poverty and preaching. They became known as the Albigensians as it gained many adherents in the city of Albi and surrounding area in the twelfth and thirteenth century.[1]

When Innocent III's diplomatic attempts to roll back Catharism[2] met with little success and after the murder of the papal legate, Pierre de Castelnau, Innocent III declared a crusade against Languedoc, offering the lands of the Cathar heretics to any French nobleman willing to take up arms. The violence led to France's acquisition of lands with closer linguistic, cultural, and political ties to Catalonia (see Occitan). The pope declared that all Albigenses "should be imprisoned and their property confiscated".[3]

The Albigensian Crusade also had a role in the creation and institutionalization of both the Dominican Order and the Medieval Inquisition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade

In parts of the Languedoc the male population was practically exterminated.  I'm sure Jesus would not have approved to be fair.

Sorry for teasing, but do you really think God is a Zombie? :P

Too much 'Walking Dead' for you. ::)

The one question that always comes to mind when discussing the Shroud is "How do you know this is an image of the famed Jesus?" I mean, any one got an exact depiction of him? Could be a Wheat farmer caught sleeping with the Kings concubine. ;)

I don't and have not ever trusted radio carbon dating as a "TRUE" form of definitive aging detection. Too many variables not taken into consideration, not too mention the pollutants that do create all kinds of eye brow lifting when trying to authenticate such a delicate topic such as religion or the proof of so and so.

Spectrometry can give readings that will both confirm and denounce with such materials, the research with in the paintings and such is basically familiarities with in brush strokes and techniques, this I know for sure. It also may pull out covered original rendering artifacts under the pigments, but it is not an "Aging Detection" as you may think, it is too postulate similarities of artists known previous works and compare these anomalies such as brush strokes to authenticate, nothing to do with aging process.

1WW

Pimander said, "Sorry for teasing, but do you really think God is a Zombie"?

...

Not only no, but hell no! (no pun intended)  ;)

But, no problem Pi. We all understand your having a question like that, because you regard God as a fictional character, just as a zombie is nothing more than a fictional character. However, the way you promote the zombie, maybe you really think they are real??

But, according to the scriptures, the God of this universe is a spirit, as is his son Jesus, except for the time he became flesh in the form of man. Jesus was crucified, buried, and raised three days later by the power of God. And actually, all of Christianity is celebrating that happening this week and this weekend.

Nope, Jesus was not raised as a fictional zombie character, but rather the Son of God was raised by God from the dead, to sit at his right hand, until comes the time for his return, for his bride the Church.
 

Quote from: rdunk on March 29, 2013, 05:35:34 PM
because you regard God as a fictional character,

I'm not an atheist.  Atheism is a faith as much as Theism in my opinion.

Quotejust as a zombie is nothing more than a fictional character. However, the way you promote the zombie, maybe you really think they are real??

I think the belief in a resurrected body is part of Christianity.  Perhaps I'm wrong?  A zombie is an animated corpse.

Quote
Nope, Jesus was not raised as a fictional zombie character,

If Jesus had a soul then we all do.  He was a Man.  Possibly a remarkable one, but a man nonetheless.  The mythical Christ was not a man.  Obviously we will differ here.

Quotebut rather the Son of God was raised by God from the dead, to sit at his right hand, until comes the time for his return, for his bride the Church.

He's sitting beside himself waiting to Marry an institution?

Quote from: Pimander on March 29, 2013, 07:33:49 PM
He's sitting beside himself waiting to Marry an institution?

God is a triune God head, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. According to the scriptures, Jesus is waiting upon the Father to tell him when it is time................... .

Actually, this is in a way metaphorically similar to the engagement arrangements for Jewish couples of the period, and is obviously the reason for Jesus' use of its methodology. Supposedly, during that time, when Jewish couples became engaged/betrothed, the groom to be would return to "the father's house" to make all things ready for them. However, it was the father who would decide when the groom's make-ready-work was done, and that it was time for the groom to return for the bride.

So, in this scenario, the Church is to be the bride, Jesus is the to be the groom", and we all are waiting on the Father to tell Jesus when all things are ready.  Matthew 36 (Bible) is just one of the places where Jesus discusses that end time, and in verse 36 mentions "concerning that date and hour no one hath known.......except my Father only".

I believe that Jesus' use of this bride/groom relationship conveys the deepest possible picture to us, of his everlasting love for us, those who accepted him as Savior and Lord.

So Pimander, relative to your "waiting" comment, and for anyone intellectually interested, here is a link to "Jewish Marriage Customs" that some might find interesting. It does better detail the associated event progress of the Jewish marriage.

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/jewish_marriage_customs.htm

Quote from: Pimander on March 29, 2013, 11:51:31 AM
You guys actually genuinely believe that God is a ZOMBIE?   You worship a ZOMBIE?  Now that's stretching my credulity and religion a bit too far.  Weirdos- the lot of you..  :o

what ZOMBIE? What is it with all this love of Zombies anyway?

It's really very simple.  Jesus was revived by the crew of his spacecraft and came back to say farewell to a few friends. Then he got on board, (maybe beamed up in a flash of light :D) and flew back home. If his craft was merely a normal spacecraft flying around the speed of light (to keep within Einstein's rules :P ) he would fly out spend a few months back at home and then return for a 'second coming'  Considering the relativist laws, he woul;d only have ages a few months while life on Earth has advanced several thousnad years :D 

See? Simple...  no gods needed  no  zombies needed, just a normal light speed capable craft ( And we see those flying around all the time right?

Now when I was studying mythology/religion... I heard that Jesus was supposed to return in 2000 years (Can someone point me to that reference? Thanks)

Seems he is over due  ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmZg7tvGN9o

Now if on the other hand he used the Stargate as I and others believe... then time wouldn't be an issue :D

(http://thelivingmoon.com/42stargate/04images/Christian/0906.jpg)

Quote from: rdunk on March 29, 2013, 05:35:34 PM
...but rather the Son of God was raised by God from the dead, to sit at his right hand,

Nice story But the medical staff on the Starship Enterprise can also raise people from the dead. So raising someone from the dead is not a feat that requires godhood.

In fact modern paramedics have done the same and do it daily.  We breath life into those that drown, we restart a heart with a zap of electricity. Our hospitals are full of people who have died and been brought back by MAN not god  (even though some stupid mortals give god the credit instead of the doctor)

Some people even flatline on purpose, to be brought back to life for the experience.

So sorry, bringing back someone who supposedly died back then (BTW who did the determination he was actually dead?) is not a big feat needing a god.

It is fine to have a belief... we all have one of some sort. but in truth, your God is currently a fictional character that only exists in your beliefs.  Faith is fine... but it is not proof. If it works for you then great, but it is still a fiction until proven.

Now Captain Kirk can call up to Scotty and say "Behold... let there be a cow!!!" and Scotty could make a cow materialize in seconds in a flash of light.  If that happened on a planet that didn't have cows. it would surely be a MIRACLE, especially in the minds of simple peasants and farmers :D

'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Sir A C Clarke 

Magic... or Godhood :P

Hallowed are the ORI!!!  8)

Quoteuntil comes the time for his return, for his bride the Church.

Which Church? There are hundreds today all claiming the same god in three major religions

QuoteJesus is waiting upon the Father to tell him when it is time...................

What a strange statement to make...

Are you Implying, to us, the Father is now NOT talking to The Son ? ? ?

Or has been waiting 2,000 years for a reply ? ? ?

Something here in what you have written, is definitely NOT Right....  LOL.

Guess it is because of the Lies, Propagated by "Roman Doctrine".

(Which All the Human churches also propagate according to their own beliefs, based on the "Roman bible"
and NOT "The BOOK of LIFE")

If you read your bible, the "1st Resurrection", was reported at the time human "Primates" attempted
in vain to Murder LIFE, which is Impossible anyway.

Re. the "1st Resurrection"...

According to the bible (NOT me)


In "The Gospel According to Mark" (NOT the carpenter) Ch. 27 verse 51 to 53.  Quote;

Quote52. And the graves were opened;
and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53. And came out of the graves after his resurrection,
and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

So if you are waiting for the "1st Resurrection" I guess you may have missed the Bus !


In your bible the LIFE, said through the "Carpenter", Quote;

"Destroy this Temple in 3 Days I shall Raise it up again."

If the "Temple" He referred to was the "Carpenter", then WHO was The "I" referring to ?

Certainly NOT the "Carpenter" as you claim he was buried and on the 3rd day was raised !

But the One who kick started the program of the Carpenter was LIFE !


As was said, through the "Carpenter"...

"I Am The WAY The Truth and The LIFE " !

The Carpenter did NOT Say "I am the Way The Truth and The Carpenter, Jesus, now did He ?   LOL.



The DEAD can NOT give LIFE !

Only LIFE gives LIFE !


But it is typical of church goers, to make the False Claim that Flesh is Somehow LIFE....

Strange "Primates" Indeed....  LOL.

Flesh and LIFE are 2 Completely different things...   LOL.


From an Ancient Christian writing, and NOT from those who propagate "Roman Doctrine",
(Includes All "human churches" who falsely claim to be the "Bride")

QuoteJesus said, "This heaven will pass away,
and the one above it will pass away.

The dead are not alive,
and the living will not die.

In the days when you consumed what is dead,

you made it what is alive.

To be falsely claimed by human "Primates" !

QuoteWhen you come to dwell in THE LIGHT, what will you do?

On the day when you were one
you became two.

But when you become two,
what will you do?"

I have to take a fresh look at "The Fifth Element".

Z - "Which Church? There are hundreds today all claiming the same god in three major religions"

**********************************

The CHURCH pretty much represented Christianity from a long time ago, but as new religions crop up, it seems they use "church" same as people use terms like "Coke" and "Kleenex". Certainly doesn't mean there s any relationship with those "different" religions, just because they use the term "church".

Actually, the most literal translation of the Bible, Young's Literal Translation, always terms it "assembly" rather than "church" - - which doesn't make much difference but.........!

Regarding "all claiming the same god in three major religions" ~~~ people can make any "claim" they so desire to, however, as said in my signature, "Results are the teachers of fools"! (in this case, future tense - "will be" the teachers of fools - as was in the days of Noah)

God the Father has made it clear to all that God the Son Jesus is the one and only way!!  ;) 

QuoteGod the Father has made it clear to all that God the Son Jesus is the one and only way!!

Totally "False Teaching"....


"The LIFE of GOD" i.e. "The LIGHT of MEN", said Through the "Carpenter" QUOTE;
(According to your bible)

QuoteI Am The WAY the Truth and The LIFE

And in another verse, QUOTE;

QuoteI Am The WAY the Truth and The LIGHT

NEVER ONCE, did The Carpenter Jesus ever say.....

"I Am The Way The Truth and Jesus the Carpenter" !   LOL.


Nether did He make any Mention, of your human churches, Roman or Roman Catholic
or any other Denomination !

Nether did He ever say a Book would Come Out, called the N.T., even though the Bible
is one of the worlds biggest sellers....

That book is only there to make $$$$$ and for churches (Once under Roman Gov.)
to try and control the week minded in "Vain".

But the "Carpenter" did turn over the "Money tables" and whipped those in the temple,
calling them "Thieves" and "Robbers", Driving, them out !


The "Assemblies" referred to "The Assemblies of LIGHT/S".

According to "The Revelation of Jesus Christ", hence the "Candle Sticks" Or "Lap Holders",
and The 7 Stars !   LOL

Nothing at all to do with "human Primates" !

But instead The Assemblies Referring to The Assemblies of LIGHTS and NOT "human Primates" !

In "The Gospel According to JOHN" (Not Jesus The Carpenter) tells one plainly
that "The LIFE of GOD" IS "The LIGHT of MEN" and NOT "light as in Understanding!

Now WHY would "The Son of GOD", need some "Primates" to write books for Him,
instead of Writing it Himself ?


"Primates" will believe anything told to them by Priests in Fancy Dress Clothing !

Even the Carpenter said Quote;

Quote78.   Jesus said, "Why have you come out into the desert?

To see a reed shaken by the wind?

And to see a man clothed in fine garments like your kings and your great men?

Upon them are the fine garments, and they are unable  to discern THE TRUTH."

The Reason "human Primates" did this, was an Attempt in Vain to Covet LIFE !

And That is simply NOT going to Work, as "The TRUTH" Remains in spite of what
"human Primates" believes in Vain !

There is ONLY "One Way" and that is through LIFE and NOT the "Human Primate" !

We all find "The Truth", when we DIE whether we want to or Not.....

And Soon discover what was human B.S.

Personally I prefer to Follow LIFE rather than the B.S. of Human Primates !

At Least LIFE never Lies to anyone or anything....

Unlike your human priests and ministers!

Have not been, and do not now plan to reply to such a fundamentally distorted treatise about the God of this universe, and about what is clearly presented in his Word The Bible. Might work for the monkey segment of your primates, but most of we human primate Christians, who have a general knowledge of God's Word, can easily see what you say for what it is! That is a distortment of the scriptures to suit whatever YOUR self-made religion is.

To each his own I guess, until Jesus returns!

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

QuoteJohn 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

100% Correct... You should then take notice of this...

NO One including you, can pass through the "human Primate" such as Your Flesh,
to the get to whom you believe to be "The Father".


As Jesus said Himself (NOT my Words !) Quote;

Quote"You do the Works of your father, and I do The Works of My Father.... Your Father is the "Devi"l

The above Quote is in your bible !

No matter what You believe you are Powerless to change the meaning of His Words !

So your Argument is NOT with Me, but the One who taught, though the Carpenter !


May I suggest you do a little more study...

More Facts rather than your personal beliefs regarding Ancient Writings....    :)

Quote from: 1Worldwatcher on March 29, 2013, 02:30:47 PM
I don't and have not ever trusted radio carbon dating as a "TRUE" form of definitive aging detection. Too many variables not taken into consideration, not too mention the pollutants that do create all kinds of eye brow lifting when trying to authenticate such a delicate topic such as religion or the proof of so and so.

Well one thing that always gets me is that certain religious groups are willing to take the dating methods as accurate when dealing with artifacts like this shroud, but then attack it when it comes to dinosaurs and early man

Can't have it both ways :P

Quote from: zorgon on March 30, 2013, 08:24:15 AM
Well one thing that always gets me is that certain religious groups are willing to take the dating methods as accurate when dealing with artifacts like this shroud, but then attack it when it comes to dinosaurs and early man

Can't have it both ways :P

"Exactly!!" If one is going to postulate with 'Accuracy' argumentative rebuttals using such methods, and these arguments are being explained or given as "300 years - 500 years" that is a hell of a gap in time lines and deductive evidence for arguments sake.

Sometime ago I had created a thread showing that the sciences behind Radiocarbon dating was so inaccurate, they actually decided to add another 50-75K years to the whole 'Human Species' genre, that raises red flags for both accuracy and consistencies.

As Matrix has brought out "The Bible had origination of a 'LOST' foundation." It makes a great story and has it's merit's with in moral self acknowledgement, but if one reads it as a doctrine of absolute fact or truth, they are being sequestered for what the "True" meaning really is. I am not saying that religious people are stupid, but I am saying this is all based on what was written by the 'PRIMATE' (As Matrix so eloquently puts it) and is being read and digested by the same 'Primates'." There by cancelling out any affiliation to a so called 'God' what so ever.

The Shroud has become an 'IDOL' of worship, and with out 'Absolute' proof of what it really is, doesn't this also en-tale the acts of 'False Idolatry worship' ? Religion is probably the one thing on this planet/plain of 'Awareness' (That's for you Matrix ;) ) that has been, always will be the unrecognized banking system it was intentionally designed for, for 'Power' 'Prestige' 'recognition' of something that has over dominated the 'Primate Species' as a factual doctrine of undeniable fancy and false proclamation's of rewards with in it.

The analogy of the 'Hospital/Heart defibrillator' is really a good example 'Z'. But, diehard religious believer's will explain it as "God created the man to design and build the defibrillator and there by justly intervening as too support God's love for mankind and there by bestowing the 'Gift' of life upon us too 'Multiply and Prosper' with this great magic."  ::)

It burns down to one thing, and one thing only 'Faith' in what one reads and how they translate that into every day life in a self analytically proclaimed 'Truth' to use it as a sound board for either making them feel better or just too allow them to think they are better than common folk not so into this stuff. (Attention: The above statement does not apply to every one that is religious. ;) )

Either way, we don't even understand our 'True' origins, we have ideas, but there again, are only ideas. The Shroud will always be debatable with in fine constructs of 'True' understanding and what it really is, just as we strive too know "What came first, chicken or the egg?" kind of rhetoric and debacle.

1WW

Well weve been able to watch the show, and how this shroud would hopefully someday be the cult of christianity's "shroud of evidence" but regardless of dating or any extraneous circumstances, theres no way to prove anything aside from the fact that some bearded dude laid wrapped in it a long time ago.

But if you listen to people like Constantine and the pervert King James regarding the issue, youd really be looking deep for some type of scientific fact to prove your thirty third in a long line of crucified saviours did exist.

So desperation on the part of the cult members rules the day, and the "Fraud of Turin" continues to garner attention from the sheep who follow the doctrine of their dogmatic shepherds.

These post have really open my eyes to the members here! I would hope you could choose to either believe or not and leave it at that. But no, venom and file hatred rule the day.  Sorry to see this. :-\

Just my few cents on the matter for your consideratio; Matrix and I both have been dead; I have my death certificate here somewhere, if I find it I will post it...

but I remember my time on the other side, remember my experience, and all I will say is it is not as all are taught.


seeker

Quote from: Sgt.Rocknroll on March 30, 2013, 04:01:45 PM
These post have really open my eyes to the members here! I would hope you could choose to either believe or not and leave it at that. But no, venom and file hatred rule the day.  Sorry to see this. :-\

No venom and definitely no hate Rock, fundamental truths at worst.
To understand the current desperation of religion is a blessing, ironically.

Every little shroud counts towards them finally being  able to prove  something....whatever it would be.

All the best to you, and everyone else here.

TO ALL CONCERNED--

The often heated and reheated topics of religion and politics have always been nearly as divisive as science itself, and the two are inextricably woven together into a fine, sticky mess.

For those who want to understand why religion is as useless as uselessness itself, I cover the topic in logical detail (if logic is your sort of thing--to be clear, logic isn't for everyone). You can listen to my presentation I call the "MANUAL FOR LIFE" here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZRsIak8KzI

That should clear up all of the rampant silliness associated with religion AND politics. Two birds at once, if you will.

If there are further questions regarding life, Jesus, aliens, stargates, dimensions, the ether or anything else which doesn't require mathematical formulas (because I have dyscalcula as one of my challenges), feel free to ask, and I shall impart to you the hidden-in-plain-sight wonders of the universe in such a way that even a child will "get" it.

Cheers!

Peace and Love,
JD

Sorry but the underlying attitude of ridicule says differently. :-[

Quote from: Sgt.Rocknroll on March 30, 2013, 04:49:50 PM
Sorry but the underlying attitude of ridicule says differently. :-[

Sarge,

Understandably, and I would agree.

Attitudes do come over loud and clear, even in
black and white.

Please know that these are just the opinions of
those posting, they do not represent a consensus
of those here on PRC.

Let them who condescend do so,
dont let it bother you.

I dont much care for George Clooney,
but he said this once, and I find it pretty spot on.

" You never really learn much from hearing yourself speak."
~ George Clooney

Quote from: Sgt.Rocknroll on March 30, 2013, 04:49:50 PM
Sorry but the underlying attitude of ridicule says differently. :-[

People I love, even the wobbly ones, so I assure you I intend no ridiculousness. My way of communication has been called odd, and so it is, I suppose, but why make the leap to saying I'm in some way ridiculing? Truly I am not.

We are each where we are in our understanding of all things based on what we were exposed to, and how we compare that data to the context we currently live within. Everyone being a unique specimen, we have unique perspectives. I see no problem with this, because what works for one may not work for another, due to differences of various sorts.

Ridicule. I'm not getting where I have ridiculed anyone or their beliefs. If you feel ridiculed, it has not originated from me, but rather your own interpretation of my views and how they are expressed. I try to be as accommodating as possible when it comes to others and their views. People are vessels filled with notions about stuff.

There will be disagreement, but I in no way ridicule those who don't think as I do. I embrace conflict (meaning disagreement) as a source of potential understanding, and an opportunity to test theories. I advance my theories in hopes that others will debate and discuss (with me) the various attributes of my perspectives.

I have zero interest in belittling anyone on this or any other forum. I inherently love everyone, even those with whom I strongly disagree, because I assume and hope that as others become more knowledgeable they will become less offensive (as has been the case with me), and we aren't today who we will be tomorrow.

Jesus existed. Whether or not Jesus is the only god or God we have, or whether or not he still lives, or whether it all even matters I have worked out for myself, and I am confident in what I know. My position is irrelevant to died-in-the-wool believers, and fortunately I'm not on a mission to make people believe as I do. I merely post my perspective for your consumption or disposal--nothing more.

Peace and Love,
JD

Quote from: Anynonmouses on March 30, 2013, 04:43:48 PM
If there are further questions regarding life, Jesus, aliens, stargates, dimensions, the ether or anything else which doesn't require mathematical formulas (because I have dyscalcula as one of my challenges), feel free to ask, and I shall impart to you the hidden-in-plain-sight wonders of the universe in such a way that even a child will "get" it.

Religion and Politics will always be an issue as long as there are two people left on this planet.

As far as religion goes everyone is on their own path.

So you have all the answers in that video> Sorry no time to watch right now. I see you mention Stargates too. Did you know the US military has papers on those and supports our study here with advertizing on that military stargate page?

what is the point of all the fighting?..what is gained

feelings of dislike for your fellows...this is not good

religion is a topic that has two sides and that isn't going to change..

let the other guy have some room to be an individual and choose 
for themselves which side they are comfortable with
and then step back in respect and do your own thing

geeeeze...

this is how those stupid wars all start..
everyone wants respect for their views but
doesn't want to advance that choice to other folk

get over it people......

we aren't going anywhere till we can accept that the differences
are good  and great even in giving something to think about
not bad and not a threat and not to be at war over

that's why this bloody planet is in the mess it's in

GROW UP

:( :'(

I don't believe anyone is fighting. Those of us that believe a certain thing and those that do not. You state your case and let it go. I DO though' stand by what I said. There is venom and sarcastic ridicule in underlying  attitudes in some post. I would just hope and yes 'pray', that people would take a little more time in composing they're responses and realize that there are good people here that deserve that respect for their beliefs.

I'm moving on now.

Peace  8)
Rock

Quote from: sky otter on March 30, 2013, 05:30:55 PM
this is how those stupid wars all start..
everyone wants respect for their views but
doesn't want to advance that choice to other folk

Oh it is more than that Otter...

Almost everyone that comes to a forum or posts opinions on the internet has an inherent need to be RIGHT and everyone else is WRONG.

If you don't agree you are obviously a Shill, a disinfo agent, a government stooge, a sheep... add your own here '_______________'

Those that have figured it out usually have also figured out long ago that you will never change anyone's mind no matter how much you yell, stomp, scream or drop bombs on them... and those people go on with their lives.

Sometimes a few do try to show seekers the options and that is fine... present your view, let those who find value take something away...  in that sense a website or blog is probably better than a forum LOL as forums tend to get noisy when people start thumping whatever book is their personal 'bible'

Quoteget over it people......
we aren't going anywhere till we can accept that the differences
are good  and great even in giving something to think about
not bad and not a threat and not to be at war over
that's why this bloody planet is in the mess it's in
GROW UP

Well there is no rush to grow up... as this planet, this time, this incarnation here on this rock so far away from the mainstream Universe is Kindergarten.  So it's okay to poke each other with sticks, because they need to get it out of their system before they can move on.

The trick is to NOT let the fighting children get to you.

Here is my point

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO4X8_c80kg

So the moral of the story is... if you fell like EXPLODING, get a FERRET :D

(http://imgs.abduzeedo.com/files/articles/uber-cute-pictures-ferrets/5302162121_d7dc4675a4_z.jpg)

As One who believes that each of Us has a unique relationship with the divine, I surely would not state that any beliefs are WRONG - for the Person espousing them.  I can say that MY path suggests that Consciousness is "God," that We all are "God" co-creating the Now, and that all is Consciousness at some level of awareness.  I have no dogma attached.

Others may disagree, and I honor Their ideas as right for Them.

Quote from: Anynonmouses on March 30, 2013, 04:43:48 PM
You can listen to my presentation I call the "MANUAL FOR LIFE" here:

Okay so I took the time to watch this...

1) I HATE those anonymous robotic voice overs. Hard to understand what the message is supposed to be...

2) We ARE gods, each and every one of us has the power to create (or destroy), to manifest our own reality. But because we are still in kindergarten, that ability has been deliberately blocked so it cannot be used wildly.

Jesus said we could move mountains, Yoda told us the same thing...

But stop and think for a minute that if EVERYONE  here and now had the ability to actually use that force in their present state of mind, imagine the chaos there would be.

Godlike powers for the current Hu-mon is like giving a kid in kindergarten a machine gun.

THAT is why even Ingo Swann was turned back when he ventured off world. And Ingo (RIP) was one of the most powerful RVers we had on this rock (in our modern society,  not counting the true Mystics that keep to themselves)

I see no "MANUAL FOR LIFE" in that video.... and I hear the word "CONTROL" used as a mantra

So perhaps what this thread needs is a little cleansing MANTRA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rqDgQGQchc

Sometimes a few do try to show seekers the options and that is fine... present your view, let those who find value take something away...  in that sense a website or blog is probably better than a forum LOL as forums tend to get noisy when people start thumping whatever book is their personal 'bible'

well i guess that 's my problem then...sigh

Quote from: Amaterasu on March 30, 2013, 05:58:23 PM
As One who believes that each of Us has a unique relationship with the divine, I surely would not state that any beliefs are WRONG - for the Person espousing them.  I can say that MY path suggests that Consciousness is "God," that We all are "God" co-creating the Now, and that all is Consciousness at some level of awareness.  I have no dogma attached.

Others may disagree, and I honor Their ideas as right for Them.

I have a unique relationship with the divine. I behave myself and in return he robs me of my memory.

Swell guy.

Quote from: VillageIdiot on March 30, 2013, 06:27:52 PM
I have a unique relationship with the divine. I behave myself and in return he robs me of my memory.

Swell guy.

There is no "guy" in MY perspective...  Note that I did not say "God."  I said "divine."  We all are divine Beings - in My perspective - and no One of "supernatural" nature robs any of Us of anything.  The flow of Our co-created universe may run to memory loss, but no one "guy" is responsible.

But if, in Your perspective there IS a "guy" doing things to You...  [smile]  I am sure You are correct - for You.

Amat..., you know what I mean.

Quote from: Amaterasu on March 30, 2013, 06:35:25 PM
But if, in Your perspective there IS a "guy" doing things to You...  [smile]  I am sure You are correct - for You.

And THAT is the key point.

A fortune teller uses a crystal ball, A beginning mystic gazes into a candle flame...  in truth neither the ball nor the candle are required... but when learning they are important tools for FOCUS.  A buddhist doing meditation might contemplate his navel. A Christian might focus on a crucifix, a Muslim can meditate on that meteorite at Mecca... a monk might rub his beads as he chants to keep count... a Mason or other secret order member may use odd rituals...

It doesn't matter what you focus on... all that matters is that it works for you.  There is ONE universal truth that goes beyond any religion or personal belief. And that is this...


When we 'die' (leave this shell)  at that precise moment we will know the ultimate truth.  If we are naught but worm food, then it is a moot point, because there will be true death. But if there is life beyond the grave, at that moment you will KNOW and no matter what you believed or what others told you.. in that moment all will be revealed

Now in my opinion, just in CASE, would it not be wise to face that moment and be able to say with pride... "I have done no evil"

That way if there IS a God... you have nothing to worry about. If the Buddhist are right about Karma, then again you have nothing to worry about. If there is a devil, well you have that covered as well and can say "get ye behind me"

Those souls like Jesus, Buddha, Dalai Lama etc... have been there done that and have decided to come back to our level... not to say "I told you so" but to let you know that all you have to do is get to the point that you can honestly say... "I have done no evil"

QuoteThe often heated and reheated topics of religion and politics have always been nearly as divisive as science itself, and the two are inextricably woven together into a fine, sticky mess.

So True...  Anynonmouses


Those who have been there, done that and returned, bring Only One thing in common
between them all, and that is "Knowledge".

As it is said, "The Knowledge of Truth Sets you free"....


The Common thing involved, is LIFE !

Zorgon is 100 % Correct.... We ALL find out when we "Die".


Many have experienced "Death", while others a NDE, and are Still here today, to tell their "Story".

But sadly sometimes falls on deaf ears.


Perhaps people should listen more, to the many, who have either experienced "Death",
or even a NDE in the Past.

They all have their Own "Story" to tell....


As for those who haven't experienced "Death", or even a NDE in this world, will also find out,
when their time inevitably comes...   :D

None of us can escape "Gaining this Knowledge"...   :)

First of all to Sgt. "I would never ridicule anyones religion my friend." I was once self proclaimed Christian and was baptized as a Lutheran. I have come to my own conclusions for myself, and this is not to imply I am correct or incorrect, it is just what makes more sense too me as an individual not finding the answers in all those familiar sought places.

I feel everyone is truly entitled and deserves the "Good Feeling" of security and fundamentally strong constitution for life in general. If the "Jesus" or "God" theory is your bed warmer, be comfortable with that and realise it is hard to discuss such things via "Black & White", written words don't do justice for straight talk, no matter what one thinks.

I had made my original post to garner the fact that there is "NO" real way of validating the Shroud for what it exactly is. Even dating is obscure for fundamental and accurate deductions, it remains the elusive Christian proof of the Carpenter's death shroud. We will never know for sure what it is from, or who is embossed upon it's surface. Though, I do admit, by following the lineage of the shroud from it's acclimation in Essen in 150A.D. it is very profound, even mentioned an apostle had rendered the shroud to him (King of Essen) but, knowing how an apostle feels toward his teacher, especially someone as significant as the Carpenter, I highly doubt they would render it to someone that was not directly associated with in the fine construct of the follower's of Jesus during that time, and the Resurrection of his passing. It would, too me at least, be too important of an artifact to pass off to someone that wasn't directly associated with the Christian movement from the beginning days. IMHO

I believe the shroud is legitimate, and from the period of that time, but I am not convinced that the image is that of the carpenter or anyone of significance due to the common practice of this during those days.

I hope everyone understands, I am not, nor will I ever smash religious people in the face with sheer disrespect, I am not religious and proclaim myself Atheist, but I understand what it means to have that moment of self security and reliance of something greater than myself with in these acclimated feeling's involving the whole "Religion" aspect, I am no longer there, but I do respect for sure. ;)

Too all that are religious "The Shroud can never be proved to be Jesus." That is all I was conveying. And if you are a faith er or a believer, then it shouldn't bare necessary either way. Faith is with in the self perception of belief, which I am sure you are all aware of, and doesn't pose anything with in difference of your belief systems or faiths.

1WW

Quote from: zorgon on March 30, 2013, 07:10:50 PM
I have done no evil"

Perhaps just starting out with that aim is rare.... which makes it all the more commendable.

Quote from: Pimander on March 30, 2013, 10:07:11 PM
Perhaps just starting out with that aim is rare.... which makes it all the more commendable.

ROTF, Maybe it is "Z" on the Shroud Pim!! Ha ha ha!! See if you can talk him into laying down on an exact piece of cloth and snap some shots!!! LOL

Don't forget, "Zorgon is quite 'MidEvil' in his ways!!" LOL  :o ::) ;) 8)

1WW

This is one take on it all.

Quote
1. Man has the right to live by his own law—
    to live in the way that he wills to do:
    to work as he will:
    to play as he will:
    to rest as he will:
    to die when and how he will.
2. Man has the right to eat what he will:
    to drink what he will:
    to dwell where he will:
    to move as he will on the face of the earth.
3. Man has the right to think what he will:
    to speak what he will:
    to write what he will:
    to draw, paint, carve, etch, mould, build as he will:
    to dress as he will.
4. Man has the right to love as he will:—
    "take your fill and will of love as ye will,
    when, where, and with whom ye will." —AL. I. 51
5. Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights.

To all here: there is no disrespect, sarcasm, or ridicule implied or underlying or behind anything I choose to share...

at the moment of death I went from thrashing on the operating table in great pain as my blood pressure hit 280 over 270 and into cardiac arrest to suddenly being at ease, full of peace as i looked down at a man lying on a table as the doctors and nurses worked frantically on the still form; it was then I realized it was my meat suit they were working on, I was dead, and totally free...

all here will experience death, we all have many times...

enjoy the experience here, for it is school, we choose our bucket list of experiences each time through; do all things with love, from love, and give love...

all must choose their own path on the long journey; please respect others for their chosen path, and hope in turn they respect your choice as well...

we are all divine beings, all a part of creation, deliberately blocked from remembering the other side so it will not interfere with the experience each time...

even the Master Yasheuh ( Jesus to most) is reported to have said to follow no one, not even him, but to seek and find for yourself...

we are all on the journey together; all paths lead to the same place...


seeker

 

Quote from: Pimander on March 30, 2013, 11:24:09 PM
This is one take on it all.

But do those rights not come with one condition?

...so long as you harm no other?
...or perhaps so long as you do not interfere with the rights of another?

Say I decide to live in your house... just move right in...

2. Man has the right to eat what he will:
    to dwell where he will:
    to move as he will on the face of the earth.

Say I decide I want to love your wife...

4. Man has the right to love as he will:—
    "take your fill and will of love as ye will,
    when, where, and with whom ye will." —AL. I. 51

5. Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights.

So yeah by those rights I guess I can kill you and take your wife and house :D I guess that is why we have guns in that old paper :D

According to that belief system, you need to know your true will first, which will presumably be unlikely to involve moving into my house and winding up needing a crossbow bolt surgically removing from your abdomen.  Only kidding.  If you turned up here I'd fly over to your place and let you stay. :P

Quote from: the seeker on March 31, 2013, 05:36:23 AM
we are all on the journey together; all paths lead to the same place...

Perhaps some roads don't lead to the same place.  There are dead ends on real paths sometimes and other paths are nasty and dangerous.  If you go the wrong way down a path you will definitely end up somewhere different to me.

ETA:  This thread has drifted way off topic.  I notice none of the staff seem to mind.  I hope rdunk isn't offended.  Sorry.

Quote from: Pimander on March 31, 2013, 08:56:10 AM
According to that belief system, you need to know your true will first, which will presumably be unlikely to involve moving into my house and winding up needing a crossbow bolt surgically removing from your abdomen.  Only kidding.  If you turned up here I'd fly over to your place and let you stay. :P

Wouldn't work :P Unlike the movies where arrows and sword belly cuts kill the guy who is wearing chainmaille, in reality that bolt would do nothing, maybe leave a small bruise :D. As for the house, it is protected by attack ferrets

(http://img.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/ferrets.thumbnail.jpg)

QuotePerhaps some roads don't lead to the same place.  There are dead ends on real paths sometimes and other paths are nasty and dangerous.  If you go the wrong way down a path you will definitely end up somewhere different to me.

Yup many dead ends and cliffs on some paths. The question however is.... If I know the path you are on leads off a cliff, do I warn you or let you go splat?  :D

QuoteETA:  This thread has drifted way off topic.  I notice none of the staff seem to mind.  I hope rdunk isn't offended.  Sorry.

True that  :-[

Quote from: zorgon on March 31, 2013, 09:50:38 AM
Yup many dead ends and cliffs on some paths. The question however is.... If I know the path you are on leads off a cliff, do I warn you or let you go splat?  :D

I'm immortal apparently so take your pick? :P

Cool ferret pic. :)

This thread has drifted way off topic.  I notice none of the staff seem to mind.  I hope rdunk isn't offended.  Sorry.

Of course not. In these forum discussions, a single related "on-topic" comment can easily take things in a different direction. And it seems such is especially true, when there is even a little of religious import involved.

In this case, the shroud is the shroud. It does exist in physical touchable form, as is not the case for a lot of things we discuss very seriously here. And its connotation of imprint (crucified male with very obvious wounds such as those of Jesus) takes it directly to evidentiary question of authenticity.

Now, with that said, one thing that I do find very interesting.............it does appear to me at least...... that every time I see the shroud being discusses/debated,  it usually seems far more important for the skeptics/atheists/non-Christian/etc to prove it a fake than for the believers to prove it authentic.

In reality, as has been mentioned earlier, authenticity of the shroud makes absolutely no real difference. While if proven authentic and directly related to Jesus, then it would be a significant Christian "artifact".
But an authenticated shroud would not/should not be the basis for having faith, nor for "coming to Jesus"- no more than finding the actual "cross of crucifixion", or finding the actual basket that held a few fish that was used to feed thousands......................"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God".

Now, directly to the shroud - in some ways it is very similar in respect to many other physical items on this earth that actually exist, but our knowledge about them is also limited. And they all get similar discussion and debate. Like the Nazca figures for instance. Or the pyramids, and etc. Many such have been discussed openly a lot longer than has the shroud, and we still,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,just don't know.

On the shroud, the OP article simply says in essence, they think they have narrowed the time of the shroud to include the years that Jesus walked on this earth, which is different than "prior dating".

Probably will not be the last we hear on the shroud, doncha think??  ;)

This thread has drifted way off topic.  I notice none of the staff seem to mind.  I hope rdunk isn't offended.  Sorry.

Rdunk is a tough cookie, with faith on his side..he will be OK! :D

QuoteOf course not. In these forum discussions, a single related "on-topic" comment can easily take things in a different direction. And it seems such is especially true, when there is even a little of religious import involved.

True as well, as varying forms of research take folks to passionate and wide ranging places, to discover things they never could believe or perceive.

QuoteIn this case, the shroud is the shroud. It does exist in physical touchable form, as is not the case for a lot of things we discuss very seriously here. And its connotation of imprint (crucified male with very obvious wounds such as those of Jesus) takes it directly to evidentiary question of authenticity.

Very true as well, the shroud clearly shows the same marking we would expect from a crucifixion scenario. And anyone studying a small amount of religious history knows that during those years specified by the dating, tens of thousands of men were crucified the very same way the person now called Jesus was, and those folks were almost always wrapped in linens and such. Also we must realize that whoever was crucifed as the Christian saviour, was NOT named Jesus, but thats another path to explore for some here.....names can be important to an investigation...especially when searching for truth.

QuoteNow, with that said, one thing that I do find very interesting.............it does appear to me at least...... that every time I see the shroud being discusses/debated,  it usually seems far more important for the skeptics/atheists/non-Christian/etc to prove it a fake than for the believers to prove it authentic.

In reality, as has been mentioned earlier, authenticity of the shroud makes absolutely no real difference. While if proven authentic and directly related to Jesus, then it would be a significant Christian "artifact".
But an authenticated shroud would not/should not be the basis for having faith, nor for "coming to Jesus"- no more than finding the actual "cross of crucifixion", or finding the actual basket that held a few fish that was used to feed thousands......................"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God".

The crux of this matter is science versus religion, two close friends that parted ways millenia ago, and have now come to be enemies.... with religion basing all of their beliefs on distinctly non-provable events and myths, and science..looking for answers to a spiritual aspect they have no clue how to deal with.

QuoteNow, directly to the shroud - in some ways it is very similar in respect to many other physical items on this earth that actually exist, but our knowledge about them is also limited. And they all get similar discussion and debate. Like the Nazca figures for instance. Or the pyramids, and etc. Many such have been discussed openly a lot longer than has the shroud, and we still,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,just don't know.

The shroud is one of millions of ooparts and artifacts which raise discussion over the years. Fortunately a great deal of the other artifacts can be dated properly, due to their specific materials....various markings and stone engraved symbols and glyphs offer a defined origin, or purpose for many of them. Unfortunately for religion, the bible has been handed through many of the worlds sickest hands for almost two thousand years now, and it is not engraved in stone, nor can it ever be.

The shroud on the other hand, has no real basis except for the word of the folks who have kept it in high regard for centuries..and even then, it could be from ten thousand crucified men around the time the dating shows.

Perhaps if one day something happens to show us that Jesus was a son of a God..other than faith and heresay, many will realize they are missing out on something special which has been true and honest all along...my opinions differ on this matter, but that shouldnt stop those who believe the bible from following their dreams.

QuoteOn the shroud, the OP article simply says in essence, they think they have narrowed the time of the shroud to include the years that Jesus walked on this earth, which is different than "prior dating".

Probably will not be the last we hear on the shroud, doncha think??  ;)

Honestly, I think the wide range of dates offered by this examination, actually damages the verification process of it, due to the huge segment of time in which it could have been used, and for the massive number of crucified men, who could possibly be the one who laid in it.

Still, we see the dogma of science versus religion.....the neverending battle epic.

LE, thanks very much for your thoughtful comments.

i do wonder if there are any actual remnants of "blood" within the fibers of the shroud?? Well, with only a little "looking" I answered my own question. One source says:

BLOOD EVIDENCE (vs PAINT THEORY)

The blood on the Shroud is real, human male blood of the type AB (typed by Dr. Baima Ballone in Turin and confirmed in the U.S.

Here is a somewhat interesting point related to the shroud: Crucifixion as punishment was applied between the 6th century BCE and the 4th century AD/ CE. It has been terminated by the decree [Mediolanum Edict] of Emperor Constantine I the Great issued at 313 AD/ CE for the tolerance of the Christian religion (from wiki answers)

While no "proof" for the shroud, if the shroud does depict an actual crucifixion imprint somehow made, then I suppose it would have had to be done during the crucifixion period noted above. Thus the latest date for a Roman crucifixion shroud would be around the year 313 AD.   

LE said, "Very true as well, the shroud clearly shows the same marking we would expect from a crucifixion scenario. And anyone studying a small amount of religious history knows that during those years specified by the dating, tens of thousands of men were crucified the very same way the person now called Jesus was, and those folks were almost always wrapped in linens and such.

Well LE, I just have never "studied religious history", except for what the Bible teaches us. But, don't you think that with "tens of thousands of men were crucified the very same way", that there would be similar crucifixion "shroud relics" all over the place??

I do assume that when you say "crucified the very same way", you are just meaning the basic terrible crucifixion"? I ask that because the crucifixion of Jesus did involve many different and very specific treatments that supposedly were not the norm for the basic crucifixion.

For sure, I am no expert on the Shroud of Turin, nor on crucifixions - enough so on crucifixions to know that I certainly do not want one for myself, but "I am eternally thankful that my Jesus did"!

Just for interest, here is a link to a long read I found, that does give much information and insight into the possibilities/probabilities of the shroud being the authentic shroud of Jesus.

http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/2008/11/rethere-is-compelling-evidence-it-is.html

Regarding the previous comments about folks feeling compelled to prove or disprove an artefacts authenticity....

As a scientist, I am interested in proving or disproving claims quite often but not for spiritual reasons in a case like this.

In terms of religious artefacts though, I think they are irrelevant and based on the more superstitious end of spiritual faiths.  EVEN IF I BELIEVED JESUS DIED TO SAVE ME FROM SINS THAT I HADN'T DONE WHEN HE WAS CRUCIFIED, ( :P ) the authenticity of the shroud makes no difference whatsoever.  Spiritual matters and beliefs surely do not depend on physical objects.  It's just idolatry isn't it?

Even if it is the shroud of Jesus or whatever, the central tenet of Christianity still makes no sense on any level.  Jesus may have been a good man.  He may have been much more than that too but a cloth don't make the faith legitimate for me.  Likewise, for a guy with faith in Christianity like rdunk, the shroud is not the reason for his faith.

In other words if it were a cheese cloth, the shroud of Jacques de Molay ;) or the shroud of Christ - rdunk has faith and I think most religion is nonsense regardless. :)

Hey Pimander! You really boiled this down to a nutshell, and you and I are pretty much together on this. Your points made are important, but simply the truth, relative to the shroud, and how it should be regarded.

If the shroud is authentic, the imprint on it was digitized upon it by the resurrection power of God, then the shroud might be regarded to be on a level similar to the ark of the covenant, if it were to be found. But, either way, these would not be pieces to be worshiped.  Things such like do represent some of the history of God's interaction with "his man". (Yes, said from my Christian point of view) 

Thanks!

Quote from: rdunk on April 01, 2013, 11:19:49 PM
Hey Pimander! You really boiled this down to a nutshell, and you and I are pretty much together on this.

We may not share faiths but we're bound to agree on some things. :)

You know Rdunk, the fact that this shroud is available and able to be examined in itself is a step towards it having a better chance of being the actual shroud of Jesus, considering the fact that when the other thousands of people were crucified and wrapped, they remained in the ground forever, so we dont see the shrouds they were wrapped in due to their disintegration by the time the bodies are exhumed and studied.

So, if this shroud is so intact, does it mean who was wrapped in it was removed from their grave or tomb within a short time after their burial? Id say just that issue, raises suspicions of it being the real shroud more than many other clues theyve presented. Good point Rdunk, indeed!

Like Pimander said, we are bound to agree on some things, and thats what this forum and such is about, learning our differences so we can bring mankind together again, one step at a time.

Cheers!
Le

and another voice in the debate


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/turin-shroud-global-dna_561d252de4b028dd7ea52ccd


Lee Speigel
Reporter, The Huffington Post
Posted: 10/19/2015 11:03 AM EDT | Edited: 10/19/2015 07:54 PM EDT



There's a surprising new wrinkle in the story of the celebrated Shroud of Turin.


A group of Italian researchers have found that the 14-foot-long garment -- believed by some to be the burial cloth of Jesus Christ, even though science has proven that's not the case -- contains DNA from plants found all over Earth.


"Here we report the main findings from the analysis of genomic DNA extracted from dust particles vacuumed from parts of the body image and the lateral edge used for radiocarbon dating," Dr. Gianni Barcaccia, a plant genetics and genomics professor at the University of Padova in Italy, wrote in a paper co-authored with his colleagues about the DNA results.


After sequencing the DNA of pollen and dust found on the shroud, the researchers discovered several plant groups native to the Mediterranean, RealClearScience.com reported. Other groups were linked to Asia, the Middle East, or the Americas, but must have been introduced at a time later than the Medieval period, according to the researchers.

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Scientific Reports. Barcaccia, et. al.

An overview of the various plant DNA found on the shroud and their centers of origin. (Click caption for larger image)


The findings, published in the journal Scientific Reports on Oct. 5, suggest that the cloth may have been manufactured in India and then was transported from the Near East to its current home in Turin, Italy.

The linen shroud appears to show a double image of a bearded man "who suffered physical trauma in a manner consistent with crucifixion after being beaten, scourged and crowned with thorns," the researchers wrote. But whether this man was the historic Jesus Christ has been the subject of decades of scrutiny, speculation and controversy over its authenticity and origin.

In 1988, carbon-14 testing performed on the cloth by an international team of researchers, dated shroud fibers back to between 1260 and 1390. (That's a bit more than 1,000 years after the crucifixion, which means, of course, that the shroud can't be the relic that some Christians claim it to be.)

But a 2005 study by a retired chemist from Los Alamos National Laboratory dismissed that finding, arguing that the material tested in 1988 came from a patch applied to the shroud in medieval times. The 2005 study put the age of the shroud at 1,300 to 3,000 years.



This story has been updated with more information about the age of the shroud.



See up-close photos of the shroud below.
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The Negative Shroud Face
There is plenty of scientific evidence that the Shroud is a burial cloth from first-century Palestine, evidence without all of the problems of the 1988 carbon-dating. For instance, pollens lifted from the cloth fibers indicate that it was once in Israel; a seam used in the manufacture of the linen is identical to one found only on a first-century cloth from Judea; the wound-marks are composed of real blood; and an alternative, peer-reviewed test of the age of the cloth found that it was over 1300 years old.



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The Face of the Shroud
This image cannot be a medieval fake: the image does not match the style, technique, or concepts of medieval imagery, and it cannot be a painting or a rubbing. Skeptics have suggested various weird and wonderful ways in which it might have been produced; they all contradict each other, and none is remotely plausible.




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The Full Frontal Image of the Shroud
It may be difficult for us to grasp, living in a scientific age, but two thousand years ago people really did think that images, especially natural images like shadows and reflections, were somehow alive. This instinct is known as animism. So the shadow-like Shroud image would have been seen by Mary Magdalene and the disciples as a living double of Jesus appearing after his death -- a resurrected Jesus.


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The Full Frontal Image of the Shroud in Negative
The Shroud was first photographed in 1898, revealing that it is an astonishingly realistic negative image. This unequivocally proves that the Shroud cannot be a medieval man-made forgery, for no one knew how to produce such an image in those days - or would have wanted to. And no, Leonardo couldn't have either - apart from anything else, he was born a century after the Shroud is first documented in France.




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Miniature By Giovanni Battista della Rovere
A miniature by Giovanni Battista della Rovere, painted between 1625 and 1630. Rather than a forgery or supernatural phenomenon, the image on the Shroud could have been formed naturally when chemicals from Jesus' decomposing body reacted with starch deposits on the linen fabric to produce a unique stain via a Maillard reaction (the type of reaction that makes bread crust turn golden brown). This makes sense in relation to the Biblical record of Jesus' burial