I'm currently watching an episode of Deep Space Nine called Past Tense.
It revolves around Sisko, Bashir, and Dax having gone back in time to the year 2024, where they witness an event called the Bell Riots. The event happened because every city in America started to enforce what they called "sanctuary zones;" guarded, enclosed tent cities and slums, within the existing cities, because there was so much unemployment and starvation that they didn't know what else to do with all the people.
Bashir and Sisko share some dialogue about the situation; and it made me realise that one of the differences between the hypothetical Federation society and our current one, is that in that society, everyone had developed the understanding that they were interdependent on everyone else, in order to survive.
I'm realising something else; and that is that I need to keep trying to teach myself as much about different areas of engineering as I can, because in terms of what Amaterasu has described with TAP, and in terms of Trek's own replicators and such, the society's ability to feed itself only came about in the end, as a result of developing and deploying that technology.
I really think those are the two things we need; for both permaculture and some forms of industrial technology to be employed towards peaceful and beneficial ends, and for people to learn to really value our interdependence, and to realise that without each other, we cannot survive. I am not suggesting an abandonment of individuality, at all; but I really think that at this point, the pendulum has swung way too far in that direction. We need balance.
The movie THEY LIVE struck a bell for me.
In that 1988 movie they show the rise in greed by the rich who seek fame and fortune. It was reward system doweled out by the aliens secretly running the planet. There were the have and have nots. Have nots lost it all and ended up in a tent slum and were constantly marched on by brutal authority.
People spoke out on what was happening but authority stepped in and shut them up.
That movie depicts what we have today.
Hey when's deep space nine on Petrus ? One station was running that back to back on sat night's not so long ago which was really grand as I had never seen that series before.
I love Replicators of the Star Trek vision.. not so fond of them SG1 though for obvious reasons :D
They tie in so well to The Mainstream Science Cusp of Holographic Theory. People say 3D printing is the next big thing which is kinda odd considering it's been around for a long time already. Creating from the Holographic principle or even finding some sorta way to do what is going with stem cell's in a manufacturing viewpoint is the future. Well thats my humble take on it anyway.. even got some hardcore nutz at work on that idea now who work in 3D printing...sometime the odd do win over folke that are die hard Nasa Fans :D
They are already working on 3-D food printers that can make tasy colourful meals out of protein mush ::)
Kind of getting toward the replicator thing.
Lets not forget the only thing that can make this happen is a new & totally free form of energy. Once we have enough energy we can do literally anything....
Quote from: Somamech on June 17, 2013, 07:17:26 PM
Hey when's deep space nine on Petrus ?
http://www.free-tv-video-online.me/internet/star_trek_deep_space_nine/
Right here, Soma. :D
QuoteWell thats my humble take on it anyway.. even got some hardcore nutz at work on that idea now who work in 3D printing...sometime the odd do win over folke that are die hard Nasa Fans :D
I should probably get me a 3D printer. I could probably afford RepRap.
Quote from: PlaysWithMachines on June 17, 2013, 07:25:44 PM
They are already working on 3-D food printers that can make tasy colourful meals out of protein mush ::)
Kind of getting toward the replicator thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RMx31GnNXY
QuoteLets not forget the only thing that can make this happen is a new & totally free form of energy. Once we have enough energy we can do literally anything....
.... still waiting.... :P
I would not waste money on any 3D printer Petrus ;)
8)
1. Would we have to rely so heavily on others if we had controlled our breeding?
2. What would the planet be like in 2013 with a population of 500,000,000 ala Georgia Guidestones?
3. Have you seen the mistakes that have come out of 3D printers?
3d food printer=soilent green is made out of people=new movie cloud atlas.
if you study organ and cell structure.the future isnt as hopefull as we hope.be very weary of food in a hundred years.it may be your best friend or uncle that just passed away.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro_QpDJX-Sk
Quote from: VillageIdiot on June 17, 2013, 10:21:55 PM
1. Would we have to rely so heavily on others if we had controlled our breeding?
What? You think We're overpopulated???
Every One of Us could live in Texas and have 1000+ sq. ft.
We produce more food than ALL of Us could eat - with a large portion thrown out (not counting the wilted stuff given to charity) distributing by PROFIT and not need.
This planet has enough to support 10 times the present population NOW, and if new farming methods (like vertical farming) were used, maybe 100 times the present population.
Overpopulation is an "elitist" lie to get Us believing there are too many of Us. THEY want fewer so as to have greater control.
Quote from: zorgon on June 18, 2013, 01:31:32 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro_QpDJX-Sk
Yes, the transporter is unsafe for use by living organisms; and precisely because it depends on the same fundamental Cartesian lie that transhumanism (specifically defined, in this case, as
complete prosthetic or cybernetic replacement of the human body) itself does.
I do also have some concerns with the 3D printing or matter replication of food, as well. One of said concerns relates to quality control, (hygiene, nutrition, and the overall nature of the base materials used) and the other is the lack of positive aetheric impregnation, which can be an important part of good food preparation, as others have noted. If we are going to produce good food via automated processes, both of these issues would need to be overcome.
I would invite you to go and re-read
Another Possibility, Zorgon; my own response to Amaterasu's foundational story. If you do, you will note two things:-
a} I presuppose the existence of the aether as a given. I even specifically mention limited transcorporeal migration.
b} As a consequence of this, I do not advocate the use of
any technology which presupposes Cartesian/non-animistic mechanism, which includes but is not limited to, invasive cybernetic technology, and matter to energy teleportation of living organisms. I mention the idea of ERP bridges, yes; but that presupposes that actual physical dematerialisation does not take place.
I do not consider any technology which involves physical dematerialisation of living beings to be morally acceptable, because I do not believe that the spirit of the person could remain bound to the body in such a scenario.
Limited cybernetic prosthesis
may be acceptable, but I personally would not advocate the use of it. Replacement of the heart and brain in particular is anathema, as these are the two organs with which I believe the spirit is primarily linked. I myself do not even wear glasses; and my uncle who is an optometrist, has repeatedly prescribed me a pair.
I would again request, as I have several times now, that you make some attempt to truly understand me, before you engage in generalisations.
petrus
ever hear of quantum entanglement?
Quote from: undo11 on June 18, 2013, 09:20:20 AM
petrus
ever hear of quantum entanglement?
Yes, Undo, I have. AFAIK though, we haven't figured out how to make that work at the macroscopic level, yet.
Also, assuming hypothetically that teleportation via entanglement could work, it would presumably be
much safer to use than the model of teleportation depicted in Star Trek; which would be subject to exactly the kinds of accidents that Zorgon was implying with that video.
Quote from: Amaterasu on June 18, 2013, 06:09:54 AM
What? You think We're overpopulated???
Every One of Us could live in Texas and have 1000+ sq. ft.
We produce more food than ALL of Us could eat - with a large portion thrown out (not counting the wilted stuff given to charity) distributing by PROFIT and not need.
This planet has enough to support 10 times the present population NOW, and if new farming methods (like vertical farming) were used, maybe 100 times the present population.
Overpopulation is an "elitist" lie to get Us believing there are too many of Us. THEY want fewer so as to have greater control.
Then why the hell do we live on top of one another? There's no room to breathe. You fart in your bathroom and your neighbor smells it in his. Stupid.
Quote from: VillageIdiot on June 18, 2013, 02:52:10 PM
Then why the hell do we live on top of one another? There's no room to breathe. You fart in your bathroom and your neighbor smells it in his. Stupid.
I don't know where you live at, VI; I live 35 miles west of Atlanta, ga. and there is still plenty of room and wide open spaces all around; you do realize that 80% of the US population lives east of the Mississippi River? and the remaining 20% (roughly 60 million) west of the miss live on the coast?
Sounds to me like you need to find a better place to park...
seeker
Quote from: VillageIdiot on June 18, 2013, 02:52:10 PM
Then why the hell do we live on top of one another? There's no room to breathe. You fart in your bathroom and your neighbor smells it in his. Stupid.
[smile] Because THAT is where We have centralized power in grids - which leads to most jobs being in these small grid areas. And so We flock to these (statistically speaking, nonexistent) places on this planet. We have little choice.
If We had personal free energy, and no need to work to survive, We would disburse across the planet (and with electrogravitics, We would disburse upwards as well). And so, communities of common interest will be sprawling, and still, any who want to be alone would be hard-pressed to find another Human in 10 cubic miles over most of the planet.
The "elite" use Your perspective to Their advantage, making People believe there is a population problem on this planet. They want to justify Their eugenics.
Quote from: VillageIdiot on June 18, 2013, 02:52:10 PM
Then why the hell do we live on top of one another? There's no room to breathe. You fart in your bathroom and your neighbor smells it in his. Stupid.
When Amaterasu says that there is sufficient room for all of us, she did refer to the state of Texas. Cities tend to be designed around pre-existing arable land. Permaculture has demonstrated that it is possible to rehydrate arid environments, but it does take considerable work. If this was done, however, that land could be reclaimed.
The antigravity research of people like John Hutchison needs to be utilised as well, when it is sufficiently mature. The ideal scenario would be one in which the majority of individuals lived in structures which were suspended above the terrestrial surface via antigravity, which would give the environment a chance to recover, while removing the need for the cabal's proposed culling of the human population, a la Agenda 21.
It has been estimated that the carrying capacity of the planet's surface is ten billion people, if it were to be appropriately utilised. Non-pathological, truly effective urban design will be radically different from current cities; and more than anything else, will be constructed in a modular manner, from entirely recyclable materials. The purpose of this would be to ensure that new architectural and technological advances could be incorporated directly into existing buildings, as soon as the designs mature.
Mind you, it is worth noting that what I have quoted here, are primarily technologically oriented solutions. Permaculture and related movements also have their own proposals, which include such things as rammed Earth, cob and hay bail miniature house designs, etc. Mike Reynolds' work into building with recyclable materials should also be investigated.
My own desire is to keep in mind proposed solutions from both the Venus Project (Uranian/technological/left brain hemisphere)
and Permaculture (Saturnine/classical/right brain hemisphere) perspectives. Both offer valuable pieces of the puzzle, and neither are likely to be entirely successful, in exclusion of the other.
Quote from: Amaterasu on June 18, 2013, 03:21:50 PM
[smile] Because THAT is where We have centralized power in grids - which leads to most jobs being in these small grid areas. And so We flock to these (statistically speaking, nonexistent) places on this planet. We have little choice.
Mesh or grid topology is not so much the problem, Amy; in fact, such could be an overwhelming source of strength, if we were using it properly. Excessive centralisation is the real issue.
Quote from: petrus4 on June 18, 2013, 03:41:23 PM
Mesh or grid topology is not so much the problem, Amy; in fact, such could be an overwhelming source of strength, if we were using it properly. Excessive centralisation is the real issue.
That's pretty much what I said, Petrus... "Because THAT is where We have
centralized power in grids..." Because We have most grids in small areas, drawing People in with jobs, which requires housing, which requires ways to put the greatest number of Humans in the least amount of space...
Remove this grid requirement and We will not have to pack Ourselves into small boxes that leak Our farts to Our neighbors.
The eugenics paranoia here is interesting.
3D printed food, Cake Decorator's 3D print Food as they use an additive process to achieve form :D
3d printed food irk's me to some extent as hoomans are wasting time on a topic that works quite well already. Plant a seed and then grow it and the food 3D print's itself. Cell by Cell the food slowly print's itself till its ready for your dinner plate :D
Technically speaking adding mashed potato to a plate could be called 3D printing :D
In the commercial world it takes anywhere up to over 30 odd hour's using a laser with a scan speed of 12 meter's per second to make plastic part's in a full build envelope of round about 381 x 330 x 457 mm.
For those on Imperial 12 metres = 39.3700787 feet (39 feet 47?16 inches) Per Second according to Google.
Oddly the system I have mentioned use's Canon Mirror's. Damn wish I could search in Japanese, and typing this have given me the thought to take the cover's off and see if they are MIJ :D
Oddly... and this is posted under I don't know...
Some other 3D printer's (I use that term as it seems people understand that term) is that the same Mirror Assembly can be used with a much lower powered laser using a different material at much lower wattage and the same mirror assembly wont make as much noise when scanning each layer.
Thinking out loud here, either I work with a bunk machine (half true) or there is something to higher powered laser's creating more torque through heat and what have you in mirror systems that are working hard :D
Forgot to add my hypothetical point to that post which could well and truly be bunk.. but hey better to add a thought than not at times :D
What if some of those strange sounds reported that some have shown to seem legit are the strain of a laser based system ?
Its not a theory or anything like that, just an idea and throwing it out there :)
Quote from: VillageIdiot on June 18, 2013, 04:51:51 PM
The eugenics paranoia here is interesting.
You might want to look into Agenda 21... Yes, it's real, and yes, They are slowly implementing it. Talk about putting Humans in boxes!
Quote from: Amaterasu on June 18, 2013, 10:48:13 PM
You might want to look into Agenda 21... Yes, it's real, and yes, They are slowly implementing it. Talk about putting Humans in boxes!
Do you really believe everything you read and see on TV?
Quote from: VillageIdiot on June 18, 2013, 11:14:07 PM
Do you really believe everything you read and see on TV?
Firstly, I don't HAVE a TV. Since You are just going to brush this off, here's some links (I did the footwork for You):
http://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/content/documents/Agenda21.pdf
http://www.democratsagainstunagenda21.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzEEgtOFFlM
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/11/19/what-is-agenda-21-after-watching-this-you-may-not-want-to-know/
http://americanpolicy.org/agenda21/
http://www.thenewamerican.com/tech/environment/item/15344-missouri-legislature-bans-un-agenda-21
That's just from Page 1 of a Google search... Here's stuff on eugenics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUNgJbrBuFg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsBafcdiyiM
http://say-no-to-agenda-21-de-population.blogspot.com/
http://principia-scientific.org/supportnews/latest-news/159-science-meets-un-agenda-21-eugenics-and-population-control.html
http://www.saveamericafoundation.com/2013/04/28/agenda-21-fema-camps-eugenics-codex-and-the-new-world-order-explained-plainly-for-you-wake-up-america/
http://kritterbox.com/Thread-AGENDA-21-Woman-Exposes-Rockefellers-Eugenics-Sterilization-Program
As usual, I could go on and on. Do You always discount things You don't want to believe in?
I'm currently watching another episode from the original series; The City on the Edge of Forever. In it, Kirk, Spock, and McCoy go back to 1930; just after the Great Depression.
At that time, in California, there arose something called the Universal Exchange Association (http://www.red-coral.net/UXA.html). It was a co-operative system that could have eventually grown into a TAP/RBE/EVS type economy. It was eventually outlawed by Franklin Roosevelt, and its' members also seduced by the New Deal.
I'm realising now that the ideas behind a TAP-like economic system have been within the collective mind for a long time; since at least the 1880s. What has taken us so long, has not been a lack of ideas, but getting to the point where we are emotionally so tired of all of the other less fair possibilities that we are ready to insist on the TAP/RBE/EVS economy.
I am starting to think that it is really an emotional tipping point that we need, more than an informational one. The ideas are there; a lot of people know about them. That isn't the real problem. The problem is that we are not yet at the point where we are sufficiently tired, yet, of the pain, deprivation, and heartache caused by less fair economic systems.
Quote from: petrus4 on June 23, 2013, 09:12:39 PM
I'm currently watching another episode from the original series; The City on the Edge of Forever.
Yeah cool that one The first mention of a Star Gate or Jump Gate :D
QuoteI'm realising now that the ideas behind a TAP-like economic system have been within the collective mind for a long time; since at least the 1880s. What has taken us so long, has not been a lack of ideas, but getting to the point where we are emotionally so tired of all of the other less fair possibilities that we are ready to insist on the TAP/RBE/EVS economy.
The IDEA has been around since the cave man... the implimentation has happened several times in history at various levels.. EVERYTIME it has always fallen because a few take control and steer it in the wrong direction.
A utopian system will always mean the majority of people will become lazy and apathetic. I KNOW you, Amy and others refuse to accept that but it is true. If everyone had free marijauna and didn't have to work for a living... a vast number would just sit and veggitate with a joint and not really care what was going on.
Sooner or later one evil mind will come along and take control.
Look at the currant Muslim situation... never mind if you consider them activists or peaceful... what matters is the MINDSET and the fact that by shear numbers THEIR paridigm will take over the world in a few years by simply breeding numbers.
You cannot reach your tipping point while their tipping point is spreading like a plague. And make no mistake they are not interested in a free society
So if tipping points are to be decided by mere thought, belief and awareness... (law of attraction) then you have already lost by sheer force of numbers
Fortunately CHINA is coming up fast on our side (Yes on OUR SIDE) because they will swing to a free socity seeking abundance and THEY have numbers
QuoteThe problem is that we are not yet at the point where we are sufficiently tired, yet, of the pain, deprivation, and heartache caused by less fair economic systems.
This is true... I can testify that in my own situation I was down to my last buck in January with no job, my wife had no job... no health coverage no unemployment and no way to pay next months mortgage.
I turned it around slowly by selling bits and crap online... now bank account is slowing going into the plus, wife got a full time 40hr a week job and things are 'normalizing'
Looking at internet sales you will find that the situation is not as dire as gloom and doom merchants say it is... it is merely an adjustment and belt tightening which Americans have done before
So yes its not bad enough yet for people to pick up pitch forks and storm Washington :D
Quote from: Amaterasu on June 18, 2013, 03:21:50 PM
The "elite" use Your perspective to Their advantage, making People believe there is a population problem on this planet. They want to justify Their eugenics.
Actually I am getting tired of this Eugenics crap... people have been talking about that since before Hitler... yet every year the population rises
IF they wanted to wipe us out WHY haven't they? They have more than enough ways to do it with space weapons nukes bacteria and toxins
WHY are they taking so long?
WHY was this talked about 50 years ago and still hasn't happened
WHAT are they waiting for exactly?
People live in big cities because most humans have a HIVE MIND... they WANT to live in big cities
Japan is working on a HUGE city self contained and you will never have to leave it to work live or play
(http://www.geekwidget.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/shimizu_mega_city_pyramid5.jpg)
(http://www.geekwidget.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/shimizu_mega_city_pyramid1.jpg)
http://www.geekwidget.com/shimizu-try-2004-mega-city-pyramid-346
So sorry
NOT buying into this eugenics program one bit
Quote from: petrus4 on June 18, 2013, 03:39:24 PM
When Amaterasu says that there is sufficient room for all of us, she did refer to the state of Texas. Cities tend to be designed around pre-existing arable land. Permaculture has demonstrated that it is possible to rehydrate arid environments, but it does take considerable work. If this was done, however, that land could be reclaimed.
Yes there is lots of room by acerage. But yes we need arable land to survive A 100 acre piece of land without water is useless for life That is why deserts are unpopulated
Can you terraform a desert by adding water? YES Its being done all around the world currently using massive solar power collectors to provide energy
BUT we are running out of water You can only iirigate so much desert before a lack of water becomes and issue. The great lakes are already dropping dangerously and THAT is a first in history
And in the CURENT paradigm it takes work yes LOTS of work and currently that means MONEY like it or not.
Here is one such project in Israel
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=reclamation-of-man-made-desert
But it comes at a GREAT PRICE
California's San Joaquin Valley, the place where most of the food we eat in the USA has been irrigating their fields for decades. The result is water loss to evaporation so much so that the ENTIRE VALLEY has sunk because of ground water being pumped out. Soon it will be BELOW SEA LEVEL and then the Ocean will flood that land via San Fransisco bay and we will lose that arable land that feeds most of the nation
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/04images/Sink_holes/Map_california_central_valley.jpg)
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/04images/Sink_holes/Subsidence_001.jpg)
Image from USGS, 1977
They say a picture is worth a thousand words. This illustration shows how much the Valley sank from 1925 to 1977. The photograph above illustrates subsidence in the San Joaquin Valley, California. In the photo, USGS scientist, Joe Poland shows subsidence between 1925 and 1977 due to fluid withdrawel and soil consolidation
So tell me how TAP will solve that issue... 8)
The antigravity research of people like John Hutchison needs to be utilised as well, when it is sufficiently mature. The ideal scenario would be one in which the majority of individuals lived in structures which were suspended above the terrestrial surface via antigravity, which would give the environment a chance to recover, while removing the need for the cabal's proposed culling of the human population, a la Agenda 21.
It has been estimated that the carrying capacity of the planet's surface is ten billion people, if it were to be appropriately utilised. Non-pathological, truly effective urban design will be radically different from current cities; and more than anything else, will be constructed in a modular manner, from entirely recyclable materials. The purpose of this would be to ensure that new architectural and technological advances could be incorporated directly into existing buildings, as soon as the designs mature.
Mind you, it is worth noting that what I have quoted here, are primarily technologically oriented solutions. Permaculture and related movements also have their own proposals, which include such things as rammed Earth, cob and hay bail miniature house designs, etc. Mike Reynolds' work into building with recyclable materials should also be investigated.
My own desire is to keep in mind proposed solutions from both the Venus Project (Uranian/technological/left brain hemisphere)
and Permaculture (Saturnine/classical/right brain hemisphere) perspectives. Both offer valuable pieces of the puzzle, and neither are likely to be entirely successful, in exclusion of the other.
[/quote]
Quote from: zorgon on June 23, 2013, 10:37:26 PM
Yeah cool that one The first mention of a Star Gate or Jump Gate :D
The IDEA has been around since the cave man... the implimentation has happened several times in history at various levels.. EVERYTIME it has always fallen because a few take control and steer it in the wrong direction.
Wrong. All fail because they have no INCENTIVE for People to add Their energy as required by the system to function, OR they had some kind of MONEY which ALLOWED Some to take over Others. In TAP, no Human energy is REQUIRED to provide all necessities, and, with no money and a stigmergic governance, there IS NO WAY to "take control."
Again, TAP CANNOT be compared to history because throughout history We have ALWAYS hadd to add Human energy to the system for it to function, and We have ALWAYS had money or other exchange REQUIRED to survive.
QuoteA utopian system will always mean the majority of people will become lazy and apathetic.
First, You compare Humans who are powerless over Self, who seem "lazy and apathetic" because They CANNOT AFFORD to do what They really WANT to do.
I'm not seeing any "elite" getting "lazy and apathetic..."
And while We're at it, define "lazy" when no work is REQUIRED to survive. Sitting on a beach in Cancun sipping margaritas? LEISURE is not "laziness," a word developed to denigrate Those who did not want to be subtle slaves. A word to suggest that LEIZURE in the slave class is unacceptable.
QuoteI KNOW you, Amy and others refuse to accept that but it is true.
And You know this how? Have You seen Humans freed to do anything and everything They want to do?
QuoteIf everyone had free marijauna and didn't have to work for a living... a vast number would just sit and veggitate with a joint and not really care what was going on.
I disagree. That happens when One CAN'T AFFORD to do what One wants, so One tends to just dream about it. Also, WHO CARES WHAT THEY DO????? The whole point of TAP is to let Us all do what We WANT to do. Stripped of the commerce angle, the functioning of society is astonishingly simple, and, as Humans are problem-solvers, when a problem affects One, One is MOTIVATED to solve it. And if there are no problems to solve... Heh. No problem
QuoteSooner or later one evil mind will come along and take control.
Wanna place bets? HOW would this be done with nothing to pay toadies with? HOW would it happen with governance decentralized to the max? I'll believe You when You can give Me ONE credible scenario.
QuoteLook at the currant Muslim situation... never mind if you consider them activists or peaceful... what matters is the MINDSET and the fact that by shear numbers THEIR paridigm will take over the world in a few years by simply breeding numbers.
You cannot reach your tipping point while their tipping point is spreading like a plague. And make no mistake they are not interested in a free society
Interesting... I have had quite a bit of interest in My work from moderate Muslims... Hmmmm.
QuoteSo if tipping points are to be decided by mere thought, belief and awareness... (law of attraction) then you have already lost by sheer force of numbers
Huh? We haven't "won" yet by that force. When enough minds are touched, it will shift and We WILL create a better planet.