The Gold Ring

[Littleenki]

It also varies with air humidity.

IS why van-de-graaf generators are a bit unpredicatable, apparently.

And LE, I did touch 40KV with my flyback design before the bad thing happened, the one involving a small fire, and of course, as soon as you got a decent smoky balsa and superglue blaze going, the electrical resistance of the air falls dramatically, followed soon after by partial failure of the eht coil, so now I only get 18Kv.

Ouch, did it smell like that other stuff that burns? LOL!;)

Thanks for confirming the polarity of the effect, LE. For some reason the commonly held belief, is that a lifter lifts which ever way round you connect it.

Thats what Mikado would have had us think..now thats disinfo!

The "paranoid" in me is saying it's disinformation, adn trying to figure out why, teh scientist in my is saying maybe tehre are two ways to make a lifter one which shows the full BB effect and one which works slightly different.

And thanks for the coldness CLUE, I was too wussy to get that close to mine when it was working!
I wonder if it's the same sort of coldness reported by people like Roschin and Godin?

I definitely think so..exactly the same.

Got me in the mood for now, Think I'll go and have a play....

Glad youre back around more Fruitbat! Youre pretty cool!:D

FB!

[Littleenki]

Jeez, i take a few days off & see what happens

Fruitbat, i will gladly recreate all of these experiments with various lifter formations.

Sweet, liftin' in the Luke shop!

I suspect that some people are blasting their lifters with too much power & causing a lot of corona discharge, which can probably  'lift' the lifter, independent of the wiring....
But if you wire it up + up on the thin wire, it will lift without all the sparks & noise.

Exactly, eh Luke? Negative chases positive every time!(except for when negative resistance is in effect?)

Your basic triangle lifter is easy to make, but less than ideal, Naudin did some nice cellular ones,too.
I would like to try all of these, but i wil just go ahead with my own spiral design, which eliminates corners, and packs the biggest surface into the smallest area

Spiral? I like that idea,,,very cool! Mine's ten inches circular and 1 inch tall for the negative side..with a 20mm gap to the positive electrode...I drive it anywhere from 15khz-20khz.

This will also eliminate arcing, to answer Robo's question.

True, true..I get some serious arcing when I drive it below 10khz..but at that rate the lift is really strong..but it will eventually damage the flyback that way. I found the best way to do it was to make the top electrode posts adjustable.

Also guys, remember our testing chamber setup for lifters? Add a thermometer to the list of sensors!
Bye

Luke, you are the testing sensor man!!! Temperature is a great idea for the lifter chamber test rig!  And remember the clock? I think thats a cool idea, too, theres something going on around that lifter that isnt being seen yet.time dilation perhaps? Maybe thats the secret which lifters are hiding!?!?!

Hope your days off were ok, Luke, we miss you round here!

Cheers!

[robomont]

very interested in the spiral.
probly need higher voltage in vacuum but lower current.
interested in hearing more from you guys.

did any of yall try my solenoid idea?

[Amaterasu]

Has anyone got one of these lifters to work in a vacuum?  If it doesn't work in a vacuum it isn't 'electrogravitics'.

Number two below.

YouTube Electrogravitics:






And a demonstration of discs encased in resin to eliminate the "ion wind" effect:

[Littleenki]

And...there you go..thanks to Amaterasu.

The info is out there..no doubt..just gotta look!

I couldnt get my vacuum chamber to seal worth a darn..so I set it aside for now, but lifters do work in a vacuum...100% certain.

Robo, do the experiments, then see for yourself..its pretty cool!

Cheers!

[robomont]

no access to videos unless they are 3gp downloads.all i get are your words

[Littleenki]

no access to videos unless they are 3gp downloads.all i get are your words

Basically, they are saying the lifter or eg device works in a vacuum..several versions..very authentic.

One shows an actual lifter working in what appears to be a vacuum...of course as it is a video, there's no proof.

Le

[Fruitbat]

Thanks, for all that input guys.
We just pulled a lot of information and expertise together.
By the looks of those vids we don't need to worry about the "will it work in a vacuum?" thing either.

And by the sound of some of your postings some of you are going to have a go, at varying the basic recipe to see what happens which will be good. On guy on the original TTB site had made cylindrical lower elements and was busily proving that it was the lower electrode that was the prime mover. This begs the question of what would happen if one used other materials instead of aluminium foil?

There is so much poking about that yet needs to be done by people like us...

Can I suggest a two variables that might be worth considering, when you are selecting your first lifter / power supply combination?

(Particularly relevant when one of us makes a breakthrough, and the rest decide to try it too).

The PSU that we all use will likely have different peak voltage and different waveforms and different current capability. This will probably make YOUR results unique... IF you are starting a lifter project it is worth considering the naudin PSU, because at least two of us are using one, and it reduces the variables somewhat which is good for repeatability. It might be also good to make your first lifter as J naudin specified again to start from a baseline.

When you then immediately branch into varying everything until you get some magic, having the two "reference" pieces of equipment to hand, makes it instantly easier to communicate what you have done, because you can compare it directly with the operation of everyone Else's first lifter. I don't know if that makes any sense, but on the grounds that two of us at least have got the basic setup working, if yours doesn't work, or better yet works differently to what it should, then at least help is available.

LE and someone else (sorry, to be so rude but I can't remember who!) pointed out that the effect is much stronger at low frequencies, but that the flyback coils don't like the low frequencies. MAYBE a car coil as fitted in the new fangled coil in plug engines would work better and be more durable at the lower frequencies? (Those should be available in friendly scrapyards cheaper and for longer than a new flyback.)

A word about these flyback coils...

Most of us dimly understand the basic idea of a simple electrical voltage transformer. You wind a number of turns of wire round a magnetic material in a coil, and you then surround this basic coil with another coil would with a different number of turns. (For the purposes of getting across the basics may we take the first coil as ten turns of thickish enameled wire, and the second coil as being ten thousand turns of exquisitely carefully wound very fine but very well insulated wire?) THIS GIVES a ratio of a thousand to one, and should we manage  to put a waveform of 40V peak to peak across our first coil, we will see a thousand times as much voltage developed across the second coil. 40 KV, the sort of thing that we want. HERES THE RUB: YOU actually need a fair few turns on the primary in order to get the "resistance" of the coil high enough to allow 40volts to be across it. Probably somewhere of the order of 100 turns, and therefore even using the finest of wire, that 100,000 turns of wire is going to make our step transformer Pretty big!

CUE THE FLYBACK part of the transforming... What was needed was a way of getting a bigger voltage out of the secondary coil, and that was done when some bright spark remembered magneto ignition as used in your lawnmower if it's as old as mine, and most small aeroplanes flying today. To get MORE voltage you can cheat by instead of making the turns ration bigger, you make the magnetism bigger. I don't profess to fully understand how it works, but I DO KNOW that instead of depending on a nice sine waveform being fed in like a true step up (or down it works either way) transformer, a flyback requires (ideally) a nice ramped rising edge of voltage to magnetise the core, of exactly the right duration, followed by a sharp "short circuit" and pause to allow the magnetic magic to happen (all I know is that the core material is selected to have a magnetic "charging rate" just-so and that there is a very fine air gap introduced into the magnetic core that is essential to it's operation. Far more complicated than it looks, but much more "tweakable" in that if one drives it from a function generator one can tune the waveform for maximum efficiency at the transformers fundamental frequency, but by careful reshaping of the wave one should be able to get interesting harmonics happening, which might well "do stuff" in an interesting way.

IF anyone wants to join in the search for a better lifter, be it achievable though a novel PSU, a novel configuration or novel materials, please consider taking measurements of your input voltage and input current, (In the naudin PSU you'd measure the 45volt line before the 12v regulator fro both current and voltage) to derive the input power, and find a way to measure the total thrust obtained. Anyone who wants to see how I do it, with some balsa, a pin some glue and "jewellery" scales, feel free to ask and I will send you a picture. The advantage to measuring the thrust is that you generally have to have the lifter clipped or clamped to the measuring rig, so at least the 20-30 KV isn't flying about threateningly.

Remember, THIS IS HAZARDOUS!!.

Think about the high voltage leads and what they are near to at all times. 40mm is the absolute minimum safety distance, so triple it! Keep about 4 inches between BOTH of the output wires, from each other, yourself, any piece of electronic gear that you would like to re-use, and of course, the cat.

Use a clean, dry, (known to be non-conducting!) table and always be nearer to the "off" switch than you are to the lifter when the power is on.

Get a high voltage probe, and ALWAYS check the high voltage side after disconnecting the power, BEFORE you go near that lifter, on dry days mine takes a surprising amount of time to fall below a thousand volts...

Keep one hand in your pocket whenever possible when the high voltage is on! This simple measure makes it less likely that the shock will travel from arm to arm, which in turn reduces the odds of your heart stopping which could happen if you ignore my advice and are not gifted or lucky...

Hope these few simple thoughts are useful. I'm sure that there is some interesting stuff to be done here. The advantage of working however loosely together is that we can compare results and share ideas, and maybe we can get that self lifting r/c lifter going after all.

BY my calculations IF we can get a 10x increase in overall lifting efficiency a "lifter" can be made to self lift, using modern lithium batteries, and may well make it into space!!

No one else seems to have figured this out.

Consider the lifter that lifted Orville the mouse. Bloody huge it was.
Orville weighs 65grammes.
The "maximus" lifter needed about 100 watts of power. (IIRC)
100 watts of power is available for around 30 minutes from a lithium battery weighing about 3 times as much as Orville.

IF we have 10 times as much lifting power available from our redesigned lifter (which is now 10x more efficient) then our lifter should be able to lift ten Orvilles worth of payload. given that the battery weighs three orvilles, we would have seven "Orville's" worth of payload to fit the PSU (and a handwritten note to the guys and gals up in the ISS), before first autonomous flight.
Have you ever seen a lifter take off? IT IS NOT GRADUAL..

30 minutes worth of battery power should make for a satisfying ascent.

Someone who isn't mad, please check my basic assumption and figures please, but IF i am right and we can find that magic force multiplier, space for us (And when I say "us" I mean us people right here, right now, playing with this stuff.) could get an awful lot more accessible...

(mad as a ) Fruitbat!

[Littleenki]

Zero madness at all, fruitybat!:)

I actually tried to figure out how to make a flyback..until I saw how they are made..WOW!

Id need a couple miles of wire! And the patience of a rock!

Also, many wrap their primaries with wire instead of using the inputs built into the flyback..not sure why it is necessary, but I havent needed to do that for mine.

It sounds to me like you are thinking hard, fruitbat, thats very cool!

Le

[robomont]

rubber shoes and maybe a few sheets of dry cardboard wouldnt hurt to stand on.

wouldnt a really large transformer winding cause shorting out through the winding?due to arching

[Littleenki]

rubber shoes and maybe a few sheets of dry cardboard wouldnt hurt to stand on.

wouldnt a really large transformer winding cause shorting out through the winding?due to arching

Only if you didnt use magnet, or transformer wire, right? I cant imagine wrapping that much wire though, it would take days of patient wrapping!

A good flyback can short out across the pins, and if it gets hit back with reverse current it could fry the internal winding..I think thats what happened to fruitbat's flyback, and one of the windings got shorted.

Yes, extreme care must be used around these things.
Rubber shoes are a plus, but a delicate touch is mandatory at all times..and also when the lifter is done being flown..make sure to short the two electrodes together..to discharge the flyback.

Le

[IRCyborg]

Number two below.

YouTube Electrogravitics:

Thank you for going through all the work to link those videos Amaterasu.

It would seem that my skepticism on certain subjects has already caused a ruffle in the fabric of space-time, so I digress and will not elaborate on why none of those videos were even remotely convincing.

[IRCyborg]

Propellent-less thrust is certainly possible though, even easy.  Even if these things did work in vacuo, there is an obvious limitation to the idea that prevents a practical application.

How big would the lifter need to be to lift the battery that powers it? 


Since the title of this thread is 'The Gold Ring', I am finding it an appropriate time to share with all of you a simple concept of thrust that has already proven itself beyond all doubt....  The Wheel.

A wheel helps people move more easily on solid land. (driveshafts, transmissions, wheels, etc..)

A wheel helps people move more easily on/in liquid water. (propellers)

A wheel helps people move more easily in the gaseous atmosphere.  (propellers, turbines.)

Just what do you folks think will help us move more easily through space?

It is all so very simple, and you already know where to look to find it...but it would seem that amongst the collective knowledge of the entire unclassified population not a single one of us have managed to figure it out...  (OK, some have...but I am not telling who.)

[IRCyborg]

...and to add further 'proof' I ask you all to remember the awesome people of Khemet!

Zahi Hawass and his merry band of propagandists always try to tell us that the ancient Egyptians did not have an understanding of the Wheel, and this is why it is so hard to understand how the pyramids were built.

Now it is true that on all of the walls in Egypt, except the most recent dynasties such as Ptolemy's, there are no wheels to be found rolling on the ground.  This is why historians and scientists believe that the Egyptians did not have an understanding of the wheel.

Well, apparently these brilliant historians and scientists don't have an understanding of the wheel either, because the Egyptians carved hundreds and thousands of wheels all over their walls....all of them suspended in the air!

FFS, they worshipped a giant wheel in the sky!!!


It is right about now that you should start questioning both your history books and your science books, because quite frankly, if the people who wrote them can't recognize a simple wheel when they see it in plain sight they should not be trusted to teach ourselves and our children.

[robomont]

amen