NASA Federal Lawsuit: Does NASA "Promote Religion Masquerading as Science?

[Pimander]

IMPORTANT NOTE: This thread is to provide a place for the discussion of the aspect of the lawsuit (highlighted below in orange) where an accusation is made that "NASA Promotes Religion Masquerading as Science."  The rest of the lawsuit is reproduced for completeness.  The thread will be closely moderated to keep it on topic.

The scientific and technological accusations will be discussed in a second thread to be published in our new board: Need Another Space Agency?  Details to follow.

Press release sourced from http://cosmology.com/ Reproduced with permission in its entirety.  Apologies posting this late.

NASA SERVED WITH LAWSUIT BY RHAWN JOSEPH, PH.D. http://cosmology.com/NASALawsuit.pdf

June 14, 2012

Rhawn Joseph, Ph.D. has served NASA with a 60 page Federal lawsuit for a variety of criminal, civil, ethical, and other offenses including fraud, deceit, slander, defamation, negligence, incompetence, censorship, altering and lying about scientific data, misappropriation of public funds, and flagrant violations of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Defendants named in the suit include NASA employees and administrators. The lawsuit includes 4 Exhibits, one of which proves NASA has been tampering with scientific evidence and adding 4 layers of visual noise to space shuttle film footage to hide and obscure evidence of anomalous life-like structures engaged in complex life-like behavior 200 miles above the planet. NASA has a 50 year history of maliciously attacking, and funding and encouraging fraudulent, slanderous, defamatory attacks on discoveries of microbial extraterrestrial life, and lying about the evidence, and has committed these crimes in service of their religious beliefs which they masquerade as science, and so there will be no calls for the expenditure of funds to investigate. NASA's primary agenda is the commercialization of space not the exploration of space and NASA has spent over $100 billion on ventures with little scientific value while simultaneously cutting the space exploration budget. NASA is not only lying to us, but stealing from us.

Because of NASA's history of deceit, harassment, censorship, slanders, malicious attacks and lies, it is impossible to resolve these issues and to expose the truth except in a court of law.

As detailed in this lawsuit and as summarized here:

NASAs 50 YEAR HISTORY OF LYING ABOUT EXTRATERRESTRIAL MICROBES
NASA has waged a terrorist campaign of lies, deceit, fraud, defamation, libel and slander, to discredit all discoveries which demonstrate the existence of extraterrestrial microbial and other forms of extraterrestrial life, including evidence of 1) microbial microfossils discovered in over a dozen meteorites by five separate teams of independent investigators(Claus & Nagy 1961; Hoover 2011; Pflug 1984; Nagy et al. 1963a,b; Zhmur and Gerasimenko 1999), 2) a single microbe and organic matter of unknown origin discovered on and within a lunar camera retrieved from the Moon (Mitchell & Ellis, 1971; Flory and Simoneit, 1972), 3) Evidence of biological activity on Mars (Levin 2010; Levin and colleagues 2012), 4) Evidence of Martian microfossils and extraterrestrial biological activity in three meteors which originated on Mars (McKay et al 1996), 5) Evidence from 12 Space Shuttle Missions demonstrating, conclusively, the existence of anomalous life-like plasma-like structures engaging in complex life-like behaviors, and which congregate near sources of electromagnetic activity over 200 miles above Earth. See: http://cosmology.com/ExtraterrestrialExtremophiles.html .

The first reports of the detection of microbial fossils in meteorites were published in the prestigious scientific journal, Nature by Claus, Nagy and others (Claus and Nagy, 1961; Nagy et al, 1962, 1963). These included an assortment of fossilized bacteria in meteors older than this solar system, including algae and cyanobacteria. Defendant NASA immediately launched, directed, and funded a vigorous campaign of refutation and denial, and funded a slander campaign and defamatory attacks on these scientists and their discoveries (NASA Grant NsG-366). It was fraudulently claimed in NASA publications that the findings of microfossils were "a deliberate hoax" and due to "deliberate...contamination" (pages 4,5). However, there was absolutely no evidence that the findings were in any way due to contamation. These were NASA funded lies. Rather, it was Defendant NASA which was engaged in a deliberate hoax.

During that same period, particles of biological origin were discovered in the upper atmosphere, and with an infall rate of tens of thousands of cells per year (Greene et al, 1962-65). The only scientific explanation is that these are extraterrestrial in origin and were falling to Earth from space. However, once the discovery was made, Defendant NASA again attacked, and this exciting programme of work was suddenly halted by funds being withdrawn by NASA.

In 2011, when the Journal of Cosmology published Richard Hoover's peer reviewed discovery of microfossils in meteors, NASA again orchestrated a campaign of lies and slanderous, defamatory attacks which were voiced by NASA administrators and employees who had never examined the evidence and had no expertise in the subject matter and who were jealous of the Journal of Cosmology which had over 430,000 readers.

NASA LIES ABOUT BIOLOGICAL ACTIVITY ON MARS
In 1976, 1977, NASA again engaged in a campaign of fraud, lies, and deceit after the Viking landers detected evidence of biological activity on Mars and Martian life (Levin 2010; Levin and collagues 2012). Levin's instrument, known as the Labeled Release (LR) experiment, yielded positive results at Chryse Planitia and Utopia Planitia, the two Viking landing sites. However, after evidence of biological activity was reported, Defendant NASA denounced the discovery and then postponed, sabotaged and cancelled all future life-detection experiments despite the minimal costs involved; and they did so to prevent additional discoveries of extraterrestrial life.

Specifically, the "Labeled Release" (LR) experiment took a sample of Martian soil and added a nutrient that contained radioactive carbon. The purpose was to detect the presence of radioactivity in the gasses released that would indicate biological activity. A control experiment treated a second sample that had been sterilized. In every experiment conducted, positive results were obtained from the unsterilized sample, and negative results were obtained for the sterilized sample. Thus, the LR experiment proved there was life on Mars. Nevertheless, NASA, and NASA administrators (e.g. Vance Oyama, Ames Research Center, NASA), publicly stated that "there was no need to invoke biological processes" to explain the results obtained from the experiments. NASA is lying. Gil Levin and colleagues (2010, 2012) have demonstrated that the Viking experiments revealed a "robust biological response. These analyses support the interpretation that the Viking LR experiment did detect extant microbial life on Mars."

NASA CENSORS AND LIES ABOUT LIFE 200 MILES ABOVE EARTH

In addition to scientific fraud, NASA has altered, censored, and sought to destroy evidence of extraterrestrial life, a crime known as Spoliation of Evidence. Defendants have a duty to preserve and protect material evidence and records. See 32 ATLA L. Rep. 230-33 (Aug. 1989) (citing Wilson v. Beloit 97 Corp., 869 F.2d 1162 (8th Cir. 1989) and other cases). California recognizes spoilation as a tort. Smith v. Superior Court., 151 Cal. App.3d. 491, 198 Cal. Rptr. 829 (1984). The spoliation of evidence is purposeful. NASA added 4 layers of dense visual noises to all nighttime film footage shot by space shuttle missions and the International Space Station and they implemented a 20 second broadcast delay to stop broadcasting when anything unusual appears (Exhibit 4).

NASA is hiding, distorting, obscuring, tampering with, and lying about evidence which demonstrates conclusively the existence of anomalous objects engaging in complex life-like behaviors and thus evidence of extraterrestrial alien life 200 miles above this planet.

As compiled by this Plaintiff, Rhawn Joseph, Ph.D., and as detailed in Exhibits 1,2,3, there is over 30 minutes of NASA film footage shot from a dozen shuttle missions showing these anomalous life-like structures engaging in complex life-like behaviors 200 miles above the planet, but only under conditions involving the generation of electromagnetic and other powerful forces of energy. To use an analogy, large numbers of these extraterrestrial life forms are attracted to and congregate around and above and near these energy sources much like a moth is attracted to a light or a flame. By contrast, there is little or no evidence of these life-like structures or these life-like behaviors in the absence of these powerful energy sources. If these structures were "ice", "space junk", or were due to any of the fraudulent explanations provided by NASA and other Defendants, they should appear in large numbers regardless of conditions, and not just when powerful energy sources are present.

As detailed in Exhibits 1,2,3, and despite Defendants censorship and distortion of this scientific data (Exhibit 4), Plaintiff Rhawn Joseph, Ph.D., has documented the following based on frame-by-frame plotting and computerized analysis of flight path trajectories: 1) dozens of those life-like extraterrestrial alien structures are several meters in size, 2) these structures have four distinct shapes, i.e. sperm shaped, cloud-shaped, donut-shaped, cone-shaped, 3) these structures suddenly or gradually change direction including making 45 degree shifts, 90 degree shifts, and 180 degree shifts in their angle of trajectory, 4) some of these structures turn 90 to 180 degrees and follow one another, 5) some approach, contact and physically interact with one another, 6) some speed up and slow down, 7) some make sudden sharp turns and accelerate to great speeds, some accelerate to great speeds and intercept other structures passing through them completely, 9) some speed toward and congregate 200 miles above hurricanes and electric storms and slow down and descend into these storms, 10) they have converged upon and congregated around and crawled upon an electrified satellite and satellite tether, 200 miles above Earth, 11) computerized analysis and frame by frame visual observations and tracking proves conclusively these structures are engaging in complex behaviors which would be impossible for "space junk", "ice", "shooting stars", or any of the other lies NASA offers up to explain away what is in fact one of the greatest discoveries in the history of science.

Per Plaintiff Rhawn Joseph's request, an internationally recognized expert on "space debris" who has consulted with NASA, has written or co-authored reports for NASA and is a principal investigator in NASA STTR program, i.e. removal of debris from space, reviewed footage of the 1996 broken tether incident (Shuttle Mission STS-75). Because of fears of repercussions from NASA, he was promised anonymity and that his report would be confidential, and he concluded the structures were not space junk or other debris, and were a mystery and "mysterious" and thus, what they really were, was unknown to him. However, after determining this material was not space junk, because of fears of reprisal from Defendant NASA, this expert withdrew from further participation and declined to comment further.

NASA, and the other defendants, have never conducted any investigation, refuses to investigate these discoveries, have never examined any of the evidence, have offered up bizarre lies when confronted with the evidence, and have instituted a 20 second delay before film footage is broadcast and has added 4 layers of visual noise to block, obscure, censor, distort, and prevent scientific research or analysis of these life-like structures, and has engaged in a campaign of scientific fraud, bizarre lies and deceit, by falsely telling the public and the scientific community that these objects are "shooting stars," "ice," "space junk," and distortions created by the camera when these explanations are completely false and are refuted by the evidence. NASA has not instituted a 20 second broadcast delay and is not adding 4 layers of visual noise to hide "space junk", "ice", "shooting stars", and so on. There is only one explanation for a 20 second broadcast delay and the insertion of 4 layers of visual noise: to censor scientific data demonstrating extraterrestrial alien life 200 miles above this planet.

NASA PROMOTES RELIGION MASQUERADING AS SCIENCE
NASA is lying about the evidence of extraterrestrial life not just to divert funds for private profiteering and the commercialization of space, but because of religion, and religious beliefs. The Jewish religious book, the Tenakh, and the Christian Bible make no mention of extraterrestrial life, and state that life arose on Earth under super natural conditions, and thus NASA and other defendants claim life originated on Earth under super natural conditions and there is no evidence of extraterrestrial life. Further, they use the government to force their religious beliefs on the public and the scientific community, and to punish, slander, defame, and libel those scientists who conduct research, make discoveries, or publish theories which Defendants believe are contrary to their religious beliefs.

The official position of NASA and the other Defendants, is that life originated on Earth; a position without any scientific foundation, which is refuted by the evidence, and which is based on the Jewish and Christian religions; specifically the religious belief that after its formation the Earth had special life producing powers and thus life emerged from Earth under super natural conditions. The religious dogma that life began on Earth and originated from special properties possessed by Earth, is the official position of Defendant NASA and the other Defendants, and is detailed in chapter 1 of the Tenakh, i.e. the first of the five books of Moses known as the Torah, and which is also known as the "Old Testament" of the Christian Bible. According to these religious books and chapters, their "god" did not create life, but rather life emerged from the Earth and sea because the earth possessed the essential ingredients and powers to create life from non-life: "Let the land produce vegetation" (Genesis 1:11). "Let the water teem with living creatures," (Genesis 1:20). "Let the land produce living creatures," (Genesis 1:24).

As summed up by an early "father" of the Catholic Church, Saint Augustine, the Earth had special life giving powers for producing life: "The earth is said...to have received the power of producing" (Augustine, 1957). This view on the origin of life, which is based on chapter 1 of the Tenakh, Torah, and "Old Testament" is identical to that of the various Defendants and Defendant NASA. NASA is promoting religion masquerading as science, religion dressed up in the language of science, and maliciously attacks those who present evidence of extraterrestrial life, because the existence of extraterrestrial life directly challenges these religious beliefs.

NASA SLANDERS JOURNAL OF COSMOLOGY
NASA and other Defendants have slandered and defamed the Journal of Cosmology whose contributors and authors include astronauts, men who walked on the Moon, and dozens of scientists from NASA including two NASA senior scientists science directorates who published 5 articles which they were required to revise after peer review. Although NASA senior scientist science directorate Joel Levine praised the Journal of Cosmology's rigorous peer review process at a NASA press conference at NASA headquarters in January 2011, and discussed the Journal with Paul Hertz of NASA that same month, two months later Hertz slandered and defamed the Journal by falsely claiming it does not peer review its articles, and Hertz did so to destroy the reputation of the Journal for publishing peer reviewed discoveries of extraterrestrial microfossils and extraterrestrial biological activity found in meteorites.

NASA administrators and employees including David Morrison, Rocco Mancinelli, and Paul Hertz, joined in these slanderous, defamatory attacks, although, as detailed in this lawsuit, none of them had examined the evidence nor were they qualified to speak about the evidence or the Journal's editorial policies. Mancinelli, for example, admitted his experience was limited to looking "at thousands of microbes through a microscope, and done some of my own electron microscopy." A droplet of pond water, or a single droplet from a sneeze or a cough typically contains hundreds of millions of diverse bacteria, and even a child looking through a microscope at such samples has had more experience as admitted to by Mancinelli. Likewise, experience limited to "some electron microscopy" hardly qualifies Mancinelli as an expert. Further, Mancinelli and Morrison are directly associated with two obscure journals whose combined readership is estimated at less than 10,000 whereas in March of 2011, when they were attacking and slandering the Journal of Cosmology, the Journal's readership was over 430,000. As alleged in this lawsuit, their motives for these slanders included jealously and their allegations constitute defamation and trade libel.

NASA and its employees also encouraged a host of charlatans and frauds to join in these slanderous attacks, and these individuals are also placed on notice that they will be named as defendants. As summed up by Plaintiff Dr. Rhawn Joseph, NASA fostered a mob mentality of "frothing at the mouth lunatics, with their torches and pitchforks, lumbering forth, hooting and grunting in fear, seeking to destroy what frightens them and what they don't understand."

As stated in this lawsuit the Defendants engaged in these slanders because the Journal of Cosmology was the only popular scientific journal (with over 430,000 readers) which was willing to publish theories and evidence which challenged the Defendants' super natural religious beliefs and NASA's agenda which is private profiteering and the commercialization of the space program.

NASA LIES ABOUT MOON MICROBE, CANCELS APOLLO PROGRAM
NASA has a 50 year history of lying about the evidence of extraterrestrial life and has cancelled life detection experiments and exploratory programs including the Apollo Program, so funds could be diverted for commercial financial gain.

Consider, for example, in 1971, a TV camera from the lunar Surveyor Space Craft was retrieved by Apollo 12 astronauts, after sitting nearly 3 years on the moon, and a single dormant bacterium (Streptococcus mitis) was found within (Mitchell & Ellis, 1971). In addition, the lunar camera was discovered to be covered with a film of "organic material of unknown origin" (Flory and Simoneit, 1972). The possibility of contamination prior to sending the camera to the moon, or after it was returned, was ruled out by the scientists who made this discovery. Defendant NASA immediately launched a campaign of fraud, slander, and deception, and senior NASA administrators and Leonard D. Jaffe (Project Scientist, NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory) who were not present when the discovery was made and who was not in any way associated with the analysis, fraudulently claimed "that a dirty work bench was responsible" and perpetuated a hoax the discovery was due to contamination and thus negligence on the part of the scientists.

The fraud, lies, distortions, misinformation campaign, and hoax perpetrated by Defendant NASA is easily disproved. A dirty work bench would have contained trillions of diverse and thriving bacteria, not a single bacteria which was dormant and belonging to a single species. Nor could the microbe be the result of some other form of contamination, such as a sneeze or cough. Since a droplet of saliva contains an average of 750 million organisms, if contamination of the lunar TV camera was due to a scientist's inadvertent cough or sneeze, a multitude of related bacteria, and a "representation of the entire microbial population would be expected," rather than a single species and a single dormant organism (Mitchell & Ellis, 1971). Moreover, this Streptococcus mitis was not only dormant, but came back to life. Contamination would have resulted in billions of diverse bacteria, not a single dormant species. Defendant NASA lied and engaged in fraud, and committed slander and defamation in order to dispute this solid evidence.

To prevent any investigation into life on the Moon, Defendant NASA not only lied about this discovery but then cancelled the Apollo program, allowing only one last mission the following year in December 1972. Defendant NASA was motivated to lie about this discovery for two primary reasons: 1) religion, and 2) their intention of defunding the scientific aspect of the space program and turning it into a commercial venture which would enrich private profiteers.

NASA LIES TO PROMOTE COMMERCIALIZATION OF SPACE PROGRAM: THE ISS
After the discovery of the moon microbe, NASA cancelled the Apollo program and began diverting public funds to what would become a 100 billion dollar boondoggle with little scientific value, and which is known today as the International Space Station (ISS), but in the early 1970s was to begin as a modular space station called "Freedom."

As recently summed up by Steven Weinberg co-recipient of the 1979 Nobel Prize in physics, the ISS is a waste of money and "has produced nothing of scientific value....The International Space Station is an orbital turkey. No important science has come out of it. I could almost say no science has come out of it."

As concluded in 2011, by the influential magazine, The Economist: "the benighted International Space Station (ISS) [is] surely the biggest waste of money, at $100 billion and counting, that has ever been built in the name of science."

The ISS was never meant for the purpose of science. Almost half of its so called "science lab" and "science racks" sit empty and have never been used. The fact is, the ISS was built as a model for the space tourism industry, to benefit commercial enterprises which constructed the parts for this "orbital turkey." Moreover, corporations and private companies are being paid or offered tax payer dollars to ferry supplies and eventually astronauts to the ISS; a job which could have been handled by the space shuttles but which NASA retired for disputed reasons.

The discovery of life on the Moon was a direct threat to their intentions to commercialize space, as it would have resulted in funds being spent instead on scientific investigation and more manned missions to the Moon, then to Mars which NASA opposed. Defendant NASA lied about this discovery and other discoveries of extraterrestrial life, to prevent the advancement of science or the making of discoveries which refuted their religious beliefs or interfered with their intentions to commercialize space.

LAWSUIT IS NECESSARY TO ADVANCE SCIENCE

The scientific community, the American tax payer, have been swindled and defrauded by defendant NASA which has engaged in wide spread fraud, libel, slander, defamation, censorship, and a terrorist campaign to discredit discoveries of extraterrestrial life. Given NASA's 50 history of lying about the evidence, and its malicious attacks on legitimate scientists, it is impossible to resolve these issues and to expose the truth except in a court of law.

Plaintiff Rhawn Joseph is confident this lawsuit will be easily won. Facts and hard evidence will easily prevail over NASA's lies.

This lawsuit 1) will force NASA to reallocate funds and increase funding for space and planetary exploration and restore programs which have been cut, 2) will launch a paradigm shift in scientific thought, an explosion in scientific research, and contribute to the advancement of science, 3) will establish there is convincing evidence of extraterrestrial life and that claims of "contamination" are fraudulent and baseless, 4) will demonstrate there is no convincing evidence life originated on Earth and that, instead, life has extraterrestrial origins, 4) will prove there is evidence of anomalous life-like plasma-like structures engaging in life-like behaviors 200 miles above the planet, 6) and it will established that the Journal of Cosmology and scientists who have published in this peer reviewed scientific journal, were slandered, libeled and defamed by NASA and its employees, in violation of the United States Constitution and those laws which protect citizens from government agencies and government employees who abuse their power to cause harm, commit fraud, suppress free speech, or force their beliefs on others.

It is recognized, of course, that the Defendants and their supporters, will fight this the only way they know how: by lying and through character assassination and slanderous, defamatory attacks. Their message is: "be afraid." My message to them is: "See you in court."

Ultimately this lawsuit is in the best interests of science and will serve to advance science and will usher in a paradigm shift and a scientific revolution so profound, it will shake and reshape the scientific foundations of the 21st century. Only those who fear the truth and the consequences of their lies, slanders and crimes, would oppose efforts to have these issues, and these ultimate questions as to the origins of life and the existence of extraterrestrial life, resolved based on factual evidence in a court of law. Because of NASA's history of deceit, harassment, censorship, slanders, malicious attacks, and lies, there is no other way.

I welcome your support.

Rhawn Joseph, Ph.D.

[undo11]

he's not getting my support.  not because he may or may not be correct on some or many of his points but because he made the claim that the bible or tanakh does not talk about extra-terrestrials, which means he's part of the cover up and therefore, part of the problem.

watch this


this comes down out of the heavens (one guy thinks it's pyramidal in shape as a pyramid can be the same width at the base, and the same height as the width. )


there's also the ascension of jesus into the heavens.  and what of that verse where he's taken up into a "high mountain" and shown the whole earth, and then offered absolute control over it by "satan."  what high mountain is high enough to see the whole earth? 

and what of the book of enoch?  good grief, there's more et like stuff in that per paragraph than most ufo books. 

it bugs me that they can't come up with a solution to this dilemma without once again trying to blame it on christians (and jews).

[Linda Brown]

And Undo.... what might some people think that you are?   Linda

[undo11]

And Undo.... what might some people think that you are?   Linda

oh let me guess.  i'm to blame for nasa not telling the truth.  that's how ridiculous that statement he made is.  it's my fault (you have to read what that guy is saying, he's saying "christians". he's not limiting it to actual culprits but using it as an excuse to lambast entire  groups of people based on their faith. he fails to mention other non-christian groups, because he's part of the problem. he wants everyone to think that christians and jews, in particular, are withholding information.   yet, from just a cursory reading of related companies and programs like jet propulsion labs, it's pretty evident the place is not a "christian" organization nor a jewish one.

[Pimander]

he's not getting my support.  not because he may or may not be correct on some or many of his points but because he made the claim that the bible or tanakh does not talk about extra-terrestrials, which means he's part of the cover up and therefore, part of the problem.

I agree that there are plenty of texts that mention what looks like ETs.  However, I was posting to show that NASA are being accused of a cover-up.

it bugs me that they can't come up with a solution to this dilemma without once again trying to blame it on christians (and jews).

I don't think the author is blaming all Christians and Jews for NASAs indescretions.  He is accusing them of covering up and distorting scientific data to support an ideology.  I think that is where he is on weaker ground to be fair.

I think it is fascinating that someone is considering taking NASA to court over an "alleged" cover-up of data.

[Linda Brown]

Undo,
Somebody could have found that " red button" on you with their eyes closed!

Would NASA lie to us? Ummmmm.... I believe that they would. Definitely. Just give them the proper financial incentive.... like.... losing funding.....

Just like other groups lied to us about plans to kill off Castro.... ( Oh.... WE wouldn't ever have a plan to do that! TRUST US!  Right! and the funniest logic to that is.... Gee... hes still alive...those rumors that we had plans to knock him off must have been silly rumors... Silly us.... how could we have doubted them.)

Not being able to implement a plan does not mean that it does not exist.

I am not going to spend any time on this because it is just energy spent in the wrong direction for me... You guys have fun... let me know what you find.

And Undo...Believe what you wish and whatever makes you happy....we have choices here, all of us.  Linda

[undo11]

this is a melting pot nation, although there are alot of christians and jews here, it's primarily a melting pot.  every religion or non-religion on the planet, is represented.  many scientists work for nasa, and last i heard, very few christians who happen to be scientists, are accepted by mainstream academia once they find out the person is a christian.  this due to the insistence that the bible is bunk because of the papal interpretation of it.  it's a vice grip.  how are christians gonna get high profile jobs, at nasa, serious enough to give them access to the type of data the guy claims nasa is lying about?   

oy.  to be fair, there most certainly are christians working at nasa, and jews, and muslims and hindus and buddhists and atheists and satanists, etc.   but to isolate it out to only christians and jews, i challenge anyone reading this thread to prove to me that werner von braun was a christian.   

argh.  it's the same thing as that stupid test they supposedly did that said that religious groups would freak and chaos would reign, if it were released officially, that there were real ets.  good grief, christians have been talking about this subject for a long time now.  people such as mr. joseph, want you to think, as the reader, that a 300 year old papal interpretation of life the universe and everything, is still the only view point of christians.  number 1) that's PAPAL interpretation, meaning some popes, not even all popes.  number 2) 300 years ago, mainstream science thought we'd never get to the moon. 

they need to stop banging that drum as it is getting very old.

[Linda Brown]

Undo, I changed my mind about it not being worth my time. You just said

"many scientists work for nasa, and last i heard, very few christians who happen to be scientists, are accepted by mainstream academia once they find out the person is a christian

What a pile of rotting garbage to put in front of us like that Undo! You should be ashamed of yourself!

"Last I heard". Yeah.... that works as a source!

Why don't you put your agenda away for awhile because that little red button on you has been activated and since you don't even know that you have it.... maybe you should look harder.  Its flashing Undo. Somebody else is going to start pushing it.

I am surprised that I was the first.... but it was just way too tempting!!!!  Linda

[undo11]

but it was just way too tempting!!!!  Linda

i tempted you to harrass me?  this i gotta hear.

[Linda Brown]

Nope.... you can do this just fine all by yourself. You are well on your way Undo.  Linda

[undo11]

Nope.... you can do this just fine all by yourself. You are well on your way Undo.  Linda

i'm harrassing myself?  so, mikado isn't harrassing you, you are harrassing you?   do tell. 

[Linda Brown]

Undo.... You said that Christians were "put" upon in " acadmia.... Did I read that right?? You need to be a better student and do your homework

And when you challenge someone at least have your act together!!!!

( To others please note that I had ecited in an additional thought after Undo wrote her response below. Our messages are crossing in the aether! Linda)

Undo had said
i challenge anyone reading this thread to prove to me that werner von braun was a christian.    http://ed5015.tripod.com/BVonBraun96.htm

Of course there is more to that too that meets the eye. The Nazis had what they called a " fat file" on Von Braun.... but the US needed him.... heck.... Disney needed him! and for that.... he needed to be a Christian. I frankly think that he did have a change of heart because of some of the things that he said later. But he was at least Presented as a christian to all those who supported him.

So do your homework before you whine more about how everyone else is picking on the Christians . Your broken record really does get old. I submit that  Generally speaking Christian they have had it pretty good since Rome..... doing far better than.... lets say.... Pagans. Thinking of Missionaries in Hawaii..... the old saying was.... they came to " do good" and they did " real well".

And for the rest of your message.... I don't know what you are talking about but I find it interesting that you would feel inspired to write that..  Apparently someone else has hit that little red button too or you wouldn't have brought a certain name up. Good luck with that. Really.

Like I said.... put the button away Undo. Its flashing.

Linda

[undo11]

Undo.... You said that Christians were "put" upon in " acadmia.... Did I read that right?? You need to be a better student and do your homework

http://ed5015.tripod.com/BVonBraun96.htm

Of course there is more to that too that meets the eye. The Nazis had what they called a " fat file" on Von Braun.... but the US needed him.... heck.... Disney needed him! and for that.... he needed to be a Christian.

So do your homework before you whine more about how everyone else is picking on the Christians. I submit that they have had it pretty good since Rome.

And for the rest of it.... I don't know what you are talking about but apparently someone else has hit it too or names would not have been mentioned. Good luck with that.

Linda

i'll have you know that because christians are humans just like everyone else, that other christians have harrassed me as much if not more, for various reasons, than non-christians. just so you know i'm not saying that this makes them all
victims, but i'm not willing to suggest that it makes them all victimizers either.   the big message jesus had was that everyone was equal,
that there's no more differentiation between a slave and a free person, and that we should treat each other with the respect we would like to be shown.  well good grief charlie brown,  have you been reading the stuff christians as a group, get blamed for these days?  it's ludicrous. 

if i was your best friend in the whole wide world, and i came to you and told you some guy told me that in the future i would either be his slave or dead, would you suggest i have a response?  what if i told you that someone said i was an idiot because i believe in intelligent design?  or that i was evil because i believed the planet was older than 6000 years?  or what about the guy that told me that women are not important to god. and white women, even less so, and as a christian, i am an offspring of esau, and god hated esau but loved jacob?  or that all christians should be lined up and shot, hung by the neck, beat to death, raped and then beat to death, raped breasts chopped off and then beat to death,  lobotomized so we can't spread our ignorance.  sterilized so we can't spread our ignorance, etc ad nauseum, etc.

would you tell me they were right?  i mean i'm thinking you'd give me advice of some kind, either to ignore it (as if you would if someone suggested people of your description were bad evil responsible for stuff some guys did 1000 years ago or longer who were not even the same religion ), or to tell them to stuff it in their ear or something.

you aren't my friend.  you were waiting for this opportunity to harrass me.  you couldn't resist cause you needed this photo op.

[Linda Brown]

Undo.... your words

he's not getting my support.  not because he may or may not be correct on some or many of his points but because he made the claim that the bible or tanakh does not talk about extra-terrestrials, which means he's part of the cover up and therefore, part of the problem.

What does that statement make you then? If not " part of the problem? Linda

[undo11]

Undo.... your words

he's not getting my support.  not because he may or may not be correct on some or many of his points but because he made the claim that the bible or tanakh does not talk about extra-terrestrials, which means he's part of the cover up and therefore, part of the problem.

What does that statement make you then? If not " part of the problem? Linda

it makes me a person who is saying, "hey wait a minute, that's a stereotype, bigotted, prejudiced view". listen linda, if you were my friend, you would look at that and say or think the same thing because you would know, that i would not lie about something like that. just ask z. when we were on ats, during john lear's moon thread, i was right there with them and i saw the same things they did and said so, and argued the point in their and my own defense.  and now i get to read by this guy that christians are hiding the information.   how does he know that?  i'm christian and i'm not hiding it!  use your freakin' common sense!  snap the heck out of it