Decriminalisation of Drugs and Cannabis

[rose]

Pimander, I scanned the referenced study. Thank you. I find research study construction very interesting as mental exercise.

I'm not posting to tear this one down, only to make the study group features known to the general thread readerhip who may not take time to look; and to share the questions that crossed my mind as I read it.  If I misquote or misremember something, please correct me:

The study group consisted of 15 males who had smoked 5 or more joints every day for ten (or more?) years with none having more than 24 alcholic drinks a week.  Averaged as a group, they were older than the control group by a few (3-4) years. The educational level of the study group was slightly in excess of 22 years.

My thoughts?

5 or more joints everyday for at least ten (or more ?)years

.
This selection criteria seems to be wide open at the top end.  Given the age gap between the study and the control groups, I'd love to see the results for those only at the bottom end, both on joints per day, years, and alchohol consumption.

That level of drinking seems to  indicate borderline alcholism, or possibly a binge drinker. I probably would have thrown that person or persons out of my sample.

The educational level also indicates that this group does not represent the national norm.  Nor do their psychological scores (and of course, given the study findings, was to be expected) but while the study is narrowing in on the volumetric cause/efecct relationship, more work needs to be done. And will be done, no doubt. Kudos to the researchers for the methodological goundwork.

rose

[Amaterasu]

Why on earth would anyone want to dive and smoke? You'd get your doobie all wet.

(Sorry, Amy. I just couldn't help myself.)
rose

Gotta love Ya, rose.  LOL!

Tired today, and (as if anyOne needs help) that should read "drive."


EDIT to add:  Excellent points on the study group, Rose.  24 drinks a week is three+ a day!  (Geez, I barely use that a year!  LOL!)

[Amaterasu]

You need to take a degree to understand all of the evidence.  That is why we have experts.  It baffles me how people want experts on a forum but when one comes along and gives you the straight up facts you won't listen.

Oh, and abnormalities in amygdala and hippocampal volumes are associated with psychosis and many psychological disorders.  I am not doing a course on psychopharmacology on this thread but if you wish to start a thread on neuro-imaging and psychological disorders I'll be happy to add my comments.

And I am baffled that asking questions is met with...suggestions of not listening...  To be sure, I am listening, but have some questions.

Next question:  what is the evidence that these particular readings with users of cannabis are linked to psychosis and many psychological disorders?  In other words - compared to non-users, are those users with these "abnormalities" showing a higher percentage of these psychoses and many psychological disorders?  Or do these disorders exist at the same percentage as non-users.

Just because these "abnormalities" are associated with these disorders does not follow that cannabis-induced results ARE creating these issues.  Willie Nelson doesn't seem to be going psychotic...  Just sayin'.

[ArMaP]

An interesting piece about "drug imitations".

With 46 new drugs "invented" last year, the demand for such legal drugs is turning into a new problem.

[burntheships]

Just a little glimpse into the dark side of the government gone
wrong. Not to say that legalization will prevent this stupidness....
as it likely would not.

The phone rang before sunrise. It woke Craig Patty, owner of a tiny North Texas trucking company, to vexing news about Truck 793 - a big red semi supposedly getting repairs in Houston.

"Your driver was shot in your truck," said the caller, a business colleague. "Your truck was loaded with marijuana. He was shot eight times while sitting in the cab. Do you know anything about your driver hauling marijuana?"

"What did you say?" Patty recalled asking. "Could you please repeat that?".....

Commandeered by one of his drivers, who was secretly working with federal agents, the truck had been hauling marijuana from the border as part of an undercover operation. And without Patty's knowledge, the Drug Enforcement Administration was paying his driver, Lawrence Chapa, to use the truck to bust traffickers.

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Truck-owner-wants-DEA-to-pay-up-after-botched-3743683.php

Well, just put yourself in the shoes on Patty, or Chapa's family.

[Pimander]

Just because these "abnormalities" are associated with these disorders does not follow that cannabis-induced results ARE creating these issues.  Willie Nelson doesn't seem to be going psychotic...  Just sayin'.

Many people who smoke 20 cigarettes a day don't develop lung cancer but there is still a link.

The weight of the evidence is pretty heavy but there is no way I'm going to spend hours doing the leg work for you.  All I will say is that heavy Cannabis use has been strongly linked to a number of conditions or disorders.

I am OK with it if you think I am delusional or not expert enough to say so.  As far as this site goes, studying drugs for years in Academia is about as expert as you'll get.

[Ellirium113]

Moderation is the key. Just remember you can OD on damn near anything. Water, Vitamin Pills, Salt. 5 or 6 joints a day I would consider excessive use and depending on the individual may be suffering from lack of oxygen to the brain as well as a myriad of other related problems. 

[petrus4]

You have to have tried something, to be able to say whether or not you like it.
-- Mark Brandon Read

I try to maintain a more objective stance towards marijuana, than what I see on either the for or against sides of the argument, truthfully.  As I mentioned on ATS several times, not long ago I spent probably six months in Nimbin, a town in Northern NSW which is considered the drug and "alternative," capital of Australia, more or less.

I went through a period of my first couple of weeks there, where I smoked as heavily as might be expected, for someone with a new toy; but after that, I settled down and my consumption actually became very limited.  To illustrate how limited, I can say that I was often able to make 5 mixed grams last more than three weeks.  I smoked a single pipe 2-3 times a week, on average.

I also tried two other substances; a particular kind of psylocibin mushrooms, and I was also able to consummate one of the greatest ambitions of my life so far, by experiencing lysergic acid diethylamide.

My opinion concerning marijuana, is that it absolutely should be legalised, but that like most kinds of freedom, it should rightfully also involve responsibility on the part of the consumer.  I was able to learn, while in Nimbin, of the numerous other beneficial and useful applications to which cannabis can be put; and on balance, realised that the plant absolutely needs to become unrestricted.

Regarding LSD, I still feel that decriminalisation is appropriate, but not that it be completely unrestricted.  An 18+ age restriction would, I feel, be appropriate, as well as possibly mandatory education prior to the consumption of the drug.  A person needs to have performed a certain amount of developmental work beforehand, in order to safely use LSD; and all false modesty aside, while I do not consider myself an initiate in formal terms, I will say that it was only the rudimentary degree of magickal background that I had established, that allowed me to preserve my sanity during one of the experiences.

[petrus4]

The weight of the evidence is pretty heavy but there is no way I'm going to spend hours doing the leg work for you.  All I will say is that heavy Cannabis use has been strongly linked to a number of conditions or disorders.

I consider the beneficial or harmful aspects of marijuana to be extremely variable, Pimander, relative to the individual physiology and mental state of the user.  I will also say, that failure to acknowledge this reality, is one of the main sources of my frustration, with both advocates for and against the legalisation of marijuana.  Neither side possess objectivity, for the most part.

The advocates for legalisation and use, will hear no criticism, and nothing negative said about the plant at all.  As far as they are concerned, it is exclusively positive, and exclusively good, and if you disagree even in the slightest, then you are considered a member of the Enemy.  I have had marijuana advocates accuse me of never having smoked, because I dared to suggest that the drug might not be universally beneficial for everyone.

The advocates for continued criminalisation, are likewise single minded.  To them, marijuana is a solely noxious, evil, toxic substance, which is supposedly responsible for schizophrenia and a host of other ills.

From my own use, I can say that I neither believe that marijuana cures cancer, nor that it causes schizophrenia.  As at times an aspirant herbalist, marijuana is simply another element of the materia medica, as far as I'm concerned.  It has its' indications and contraindications, just like any other medicine out there.  It can be highly beneficial, in certain contexts, and for certain conditions, but it also can cause negative consequences if it is abused.

[zorgon]

You have to have tried something, to be able to say whether or not you like it.
-- Mark Brandon Read

That is Bull Crap

I don't need to try jumping in lava to see what that is like. I don't need to get drunk to see what it does to friends and I don't need to smoke it to see how people around me have turned into mindless zombies by using it regularly

In fact my son never tried alcohol because he saw what it did to someone he really looked up to as a brother...  Really nice guy  Irish... till he drank

So no I don't need to try something to see if I like it

I had a fight with some Hippies back in the day... they kept promoting "Be free... do your own thing" crap but if my 'thing' was not 'their thing' I was a square or worse LOL

[zorgon]

From my own use, I can say that I neither believe that marijuana cures cancer, nor that it causes schizophrenia.  As at times an aspirant herbalist, marijuana is simply another element of the materia medica, as far as I'm concerned.  It has its' indications and contraindications, just like any other medicine out there.  It can be highly beneficial, in certain contexts, and for certain conditions, but it also can cause negative consequences if it is abused.

Penicillin was discovered in bread mold... became one of our best medicines... yet many people are deathly allergic to it

[petrus4]

That is Bull Crap

I don't need to try jumping in lava to see what that is like. I don't need to get drunk to see what it does to friends and I don't need to smoke it to see how people around me have turned into mindless zombies by using it regularly

There are rules, and then there are exceptions.

[Pimander]

My opinion concerning marijuana, is that it absolutely should be legalised, but that like most kinds of freedom, it should rightfully also involve responsibility on the part of the consumer.

I agree with you completely.  I am pro decriminalisation of nearly all drugs.  Prohibition is good for the mafia and organised crime generally and is bad for society.

I was simply stating the facts.  Although, like most drugs moderate use causes little long term damage to health, prolonged heavy use is bad for you.

I have also been through the Cannabis "phase".  That makes no difference to the facts.  It is harmful, especially with long term heavy use.  Don't forget, I am a bona fide expert in this area.  I haven't smoked a few reefers and read some pop science and hippy sites.  I know a lot about neuropharmacology and pharmacology generally.

[Cosmic4life]

My stance on this subject is purely objective and pragmatic.

Legalize it all and Tax it.

The tax will cover all associated costs.

I would add that the only reason drugs are not legal now is because it benefits the financial system the way it is .... drug profits are over 1 Trillion a year and that money is not being stuffed under a mattress ... no, it is being laundered through the Banking system and is probably the only thing keeping it afloat.

On top of that we have the paper industry which has invested heavily in Trees ... obvious to us all that Hemp is better and far more sustainable, but they will not switch unless subsidized by government, you would've thought the Green movement would push the agenda but then they are not what they seem are they ... sock-puppet for raising taxes.

And finally the prison complex ... how are they going to make money with virtually empty prisons ?

Yeah what we have is vested interests blocking legalization for purely financial reasons ... the moral argument is completely baseless.

C..

[Eradicator]

The weight of the evidence is pretty heavy but there is no way I'm going to spend hours doing the leg work for you. 

All I will say is that heavy Cannabis use has been strongly linked to a number of conditions or disorders.

Interesting,
but not relevant
nor necessarily convincing
if left unsubstantiated,
even by one of such implied omnicience...


Name the link(s)

Name the study(s)

Name the disorder (s)


Now, let's party!