Decriminalisation of Drugs and Cannabis

[Pimander]

Yeah what we have is vested interests blocking legalization for purely financial reasons ... the moral argument is completely baseless.

The moral argument is the hollowest thing since Holl McHollow from Creepy Hollow left Hollow House and hit himself in his hollow head with a hollow stick.

How can we tax people for smoking Cigarettes but jail black men for life for getting caught smoking Cannabis three times.  Sick world!

[Pimander]

even by one of such implied omnicience...

No implied omniscience.  I just suspect (am ALMOST CERTAIN) that I know more about it than you guys.

I also won't engage in a serious debate on it for more than one reason.

1.  I don't have the time.

2.  I can't give the people I am debating with the background to understand my points here.

3.  Cognitive dissonance is at work in the discussion.  Many heavy cannabis users will never accept it is harmful in spite of the evidence.

4.  The debate in the scientific community moved on a long time ago.  We KNOW that it is harmful.  We are studying the why and how at this stage.

I have already posted one study.

I do not normally post at all on my own topic because it is near to pointless for the most part.  I can post you a review or two if you like but I will not engage on the minutia of the research as it is too time consuming.

Most recent studies have examined working memory and verbal episodic memory and cumulatively, the evidence suggests impaired encoding, storage, manipulation and retrieval
mechanisms in long-term or heavy cannabis users. These impairments are not dissimilar to those associated with acute in-
toxication and have been related to the duration, frequency, dose and age of onset of cannabis use. We consider the impact
of not only specific parameters of cannabis use in the manifestation of memory dysfunction, but also such factors as age,
neurodevelopmental stage, IQ, gender, various vulnerabilities and other substance-use interactions, in the context of neu-
ral efficiency and compensatory mechanisms. The precise nature of memory deficits in cannabis users, their neural sub-
strates and manifestation requires much further exploration through a variety of behavioural, functional brain imaging,
prospective and genetic studies.

Nadia Solowij and Robert Battisti.  The Chronic Effects of Cannabis on Memory in Humans: A Review

As I said, that it is harmful is not in doubt but further studies are neded to understand what is happening.

[Cosmic4life]

I would add that all things in excess are harmful .... all things in moderation have their benefits.

What is lacking in our society is Moderation.

We should legalize all intoxicating plants as they are natures gift ... as to man made derivatives and synthetics, there are no safe drugs, people should take note of the disclaimer in the packaging of prescribed drugs.

All substances should have a toxicity level clearly stated .... I would've thought that by now all substances have had an LD50 test so no bunnies need be harmed.

We need to act and treat others as adults capable of making their own life choices, but those choices should be informed choices based on the facts and not the ideology of the pure and preachy.

People get high by Toking joints or Jumping out of perfectly serviceable aircraft  ... one of those can very definitely kill you, but in our myopic world somehow one is wrong while the other is Ok.

C..

[robomont]

scizophrinia?.
my wifes got it bad.
she smokes everyday.

neural damage?
im on here.
how did i ever find my way back on this site?

the damage comes from quitting.
high times is tied to the dea.
never trust ht.

never trust skunk magazine or cannabis culture.

i will say this for pine trees.
they dont deplete the ground of nitrogen as badly as pot.

the stuper comes from not being a regular smoker.

i build radio towers totally high.
drive all over the country in a f350, hauling a trailer with seven thousand lbs. and four people in the truck,
smoke rolling out the windows like cheech and chong.

its the best way to keep your wits when doing stressful work.
ive been smokin for twenty seven years.
five years fulltime.
happiest ive ever been.

grow my own now so i dont fuel the drug war.
and yes the cia was smuggling coke all over the country.
i was a witness to it.
they recruited bible thumpers and told them it was for the good of the country.

[Littleenki]

You guys are all a trip..pun intended:D

Pimander..right!
Cosmic...right!
Robomont...right!

I smoked it for thirty years, and stopped this year, when my mind just shifted into a "different mode" I guess you'd call it.

Zero withdrawals of any kind, just a steady increase in clear thought, and calm nature.

Now that Ive been off it for nearly a year, my mind is seeming to recover well, but when high I did things which seemed ok at the time, but werent.

I know folks who do it all day and function ok, but for me from experience, not doing it returns certain functions and feelings which I hadnt gotten to enjoy for so long.

It's nice knowing I dont have to worry about a weed being a part of my life anymore.

I think Cosmic said it best, MODERATION.

Besides, if you dont smoke for a while, one can really see a major euphoric effect from it...not just getting back to level mindedness like those who smoke multiple times daily.

As for pain relief, when I smoked, my joints and back would become stiff and uncomfortable.

Not those joints... My body's joints!;)

I think at this point. Id rather jump out of a perfetly good airplane instead of starting pot back up!

Got an extra chute, Cosmic?

Jes my 2 cents.

Best to all!
Le

[robomont]

yes ,i too am getting older and slowing down .especially in the morn,unless im working,then its full on .my problem is i want a breed that is stronger.i want to be so stoned im almost willing to call the police.ive fallen and i cant get up.ive never been so thirsty in all my life.
it still amazes me ,i can write on this board like this.thankyou zorgon,you are my hero !!
let wisdom and knowledge rule my friends.

[Littleenki]

yes ,i too am getting older and slowing down .especially in the morn,unless im working,then its full on .my problem is i want a breed that is stronger.i want to be so stoned im almost willing to call the police.ive fallen and i cant get up.ive never been so thirsty in all my life.
it still amazes me ,i can write on this board like this.thankyou zorgon,you are my hero !!
let wisdom and knowledge rule my friends.

In that case, vaporize a bit of JWH-250..youll think youve died, and well...died!
LOL!
LE

[robomont]

im a little spooked by synthetics even tho it probly healthier.now if they grow a plant that produces it,its on.thats what they should do with pot.legalize and have packaging that shows each compound.that way a person could see the effects of each and customize to their preference. same with tobacco.

[rdunk]

Well, I have decided to comment in this thread. Obviously my comments will reflect only my opinion. And I will not be giving any statistics, although there are plenty of them out there.

My opinion in a nutshell - - DECRIMINALIZE THE USE OF DRUGS. The "war on drugs", as it always been fought, is pretty much a complete waste of time. We fill our courts with drug related cases! We fill our jails and prisons with drug related convictions. And we have vast and endless programs designed to find and catch the drug dealers at every level of operation.

If we just knew the total cost to local, state and federal government agencies (our taxes) in the overall fight against drugs, we would probably be appalled! Even a company I worked for had contracts for aircraft involvement against the growing of drugs in Mexico

And, in every way you look at it, it is a "war" that cannot be won. It is all about the money, and what we, as a nation, have been doing for at least fifty years, has not made a scratch on stopping it.

Personally, I hate what illegal drugs do to people, mentally, physically, and financially, but, we must find a better way to deal with this problem, because we are failures with it, as it now stands.

I have never used an illegal drug of any type. I did smoke cigarettes for about 20 years, but wised up to that (but I did enjoy smoking!). And I just don't like the taste of alcoholic beverages!

But, I have had relatively close association with other workers who had family members that used drugs, and saw how it destroys families, and finances.

I once served on a county "Grand Jury" for six months, meeting one day once a month, to hear cases for decisions to indict, or no-bill. Not all, but most, were cases related to various aspects of the illegal drug scene - use, sale/delivery, and crimes against the public (us), associated with people trying to get money to buy drugs.

What we are doing doesn't work, and it won't work.

1. Let's decriminalize the use of any drugs.

2. Let's release from prison, every one jailed for the use of illegal drugs.

3. Take the steps necessary to have drugs available on the "cheap", for any that want them, which will automatically eliminate the drug "kingpin operations". No longer will there be a drug "seller's market.

4. Develop an aggressive plan for helping people who have problems with drugs - either individual states, or national.

5. Communicate and educate - communicate and educate - continual open and aggressive communication of the consequences of drug use, to encourage non-use.

6. If the formally illegal drugs are openly and cheaply available to those who want and need them, then that should pretty much do away with "illegal sales".  Some of the states, even now, control the sale of liquor through either state owned or state controlled/commissioned stores.  So, is there any reason drugs could not be handled similarly?

This subject is a huge huge problem, with many "tentacles", and there is no "real quick solution". But, if we can begin to initiate steps toward an entirely new "paradigm" relative to how we view mind altering drugs, how we deal with people who use them, making them available cheaply to those that do use them, and openly communicate to the public, then we can have a start toward --over the long term--- resolving most aspects of this problem. 

Yes, making something legal that is "mostly bad" for humans, to a lot of people seems "dumb squared". But what we have been doing, for a long long time, for sure doesn't work, and we have a lot of non-criminals in jail, when they just should not be there.

Let's try something that might work ------with a lot more work, in a lot of areas!!

[robomont]

you watch.obummer will dance around the issue and hint at decrim,after the paulies get disinfranchised at the national repub convention.he even said,maybe in my second term.but i would almost bet the farm ,no prez has the balls to do it.

[Amaterasu]

Many people who smoke 20 cigarettes a day don't develop lung cancer but there is still a link.

I say there is not, and that the government used it as a scapegoat to hide the effects the Trinity device caused, spreading hot particles around the planet in 1945.  5-10 years later there was a rise in lung and skin cancers, and They asked what, other than air, do most People put in Their lungs...  Tobacco and sunlight because the explanation.

And there is yet to be, in honest tests with organic tobacco and rodents "smoking" 24/7 for over 50 years now, any link to cancer.  If there had been, that test would be all over the news.

They create carcinogens to "prove" it's tobacco:  soaking in nasty chemicals, radioactive "fertilizer," and fiberglass filters (did You know that in the vast majority of tumors removed from smokers' lungs, there is a seed of fiberglass...?).

And plenty of non-smokers getting lung cancer.  It's the hot particles, NOT the tobacco.

The weight of the evidence is pretty heavy but there is no way I'm going to spend hours doing the leg work for you.  All I will say is that heavy Cannabis use has been strongly linked to a number of conditions or disorders.

Just name them, please.  I'll do the research.  Meanwhile I can (did! on p. 1, but I'll repeat) list things it is efficatious in treating.

It:

• Cures cancer
• Treats Alzheimer's
• Treats stress
• Treats glaucoma
• Treats anorexia
• Treats ADD & ADHD
• Treats multiple sclerosis
• Treats asthma
• Treats insomnia
• Treats depression
• Treats anxiety
• Treats pain
• Treats epilepsy
• Treats nausea
• Treats Parkinsons Disease
• Treats hangovers
• Treats schizophrenia
• Treats migraines
• Treats diabetes
• Treats muscle spasms
• Treats obsessive/compulsive disorder
• Treats herpes (topically)
• Treats emphysema
• Treats autism
• Treats digestive disorders
• Treats PTSD
• Treats bipolar disorder
• Treats pregnancy discomforts
• Treats palmar hyperhidrosis
• Treats Crohn's Disease
• Treats Tourette's Syndrome
• Treats itching (pruritus)
• Treats ALS (Lou Gehrig's Disease)
• Treats hypertension
• Treats incontinence (yup)
• Treats osteoporosis
• Treats inflammation
• Treats sleep apnea
• Assists with anger management

Ummm...  But it has no medical application.

I am OK with it if you think I am delusional or not expert enough to say so.  As far as this site goes, studying drugs for years in Academia is about as expert as you'll get.

And I have concentrated study specifically on cannabis for a good 30 years.  I have heard a small rumble here, and a mutter there of these "number of conditions or disorders" caused by cannabis, but on deeper investigation, the studies always have been flawed, and the mutterings cease.  If They really had good evidence, unassailable evidence, it would be all over the news.

[robomont]

you forgot a couple Amerasu,diesel exaust is highly carcinogenic and radon from coal ,oil,natural gas.think of all those natural gas heaters and stoves in homes and coal spewing radon powerplants.radon second leading cause per wiki.its so easy to explode on the straight guy above,but this thread has been very respectful and his knowledge seems to wide.but i do feel like amerusa.

[Amaterasu]

you forgot a couple Amerasu,diesel exaust is highly carcinogenic and radon from coal ,oil,natural gas.think of all those natural gas heaters and stoves in homes and coal spewing radon powerplants.radon second leading cause per wiki.its so easy to explode on the straight guy above,but this thread has been very respectful and his knowledge seems to wide.but i do feel like amerusa.

Not sure what I forgot, robo...  Yes, there are many carcinogens out there.  No doubt about it.  But tobacco and cannabis are not amongst them.  [smile]

[Pimander]

But tobacco and cannabis are not amongst them.  [smile]

Are you suggesting that smoke is not carcinogenic?  I assure you it is.  Perhaps eaten the are not carcinogenic, but if you smoke them they are.


You don't happen to smoke do you?

[Amaterasu]

Are you suggesting that smoke is not carcinogenic?  I assure you it is.  Perhaps eaten the are not carcinogenic, but if you smoke them they are.


You don't happen to smoke do you?

Pim, it has been shown that the carcinogens created in smoke are found only at high temps - i.e., immediately after combustion - and by the time the smoke reaches the lips, said carcinogens have broken down to non-carcinogenic states (speaking for tobacco and cannabis) as they cool.  This may not be the case for petrofuels...