Roswell UFO crash: what really happened 67 years ago?

[Pimander]

I think Randle makes a very good point here.

If the flying saucers were a U.S. project, then the last thing anyone at the higher levels of the chain of command would have wanted would be an official investigation. Any investigation would be a threat to the security of the project. To end such an investigation one of those on the inside of the secret would have to drop a hint to someone on the outside. If, for example, it was such a secret project that General Twining and the AMC were outside the loop, then another general, on the inside, could call Twining to tell him to drop the investigation. He wouldn't have to spill any details of the secret project, only tell Twining that it was something he didn't need to worry about and the answer was not Soviet or anything else that could threaten national security. Twining would then end his inquiries, secure in the knowledge that the solution to the mystery was already known to someone inside the US military and the government.

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.co.uk/

It is a good argument in favour of rejecting the USA secret project hypothesis for the 40s cases.

What do you think Sinny?

[Sinny]

I'm still inclined towards my US/Nazi terrestrial tech hypothesis.

I'm extremely pushed for time at the moment, but I will be returning to the subject and yours and A51's points when I have the time to present my idea's fully rather than half heartedly.. In the mean time, I'm still looking up points in support of my theory.

[Amaterasu]

I'm still inclined towards my US/Nazi terrestrial tech hypothesis.

I'm extremely pushed for time at the moment, but I will be returning to the subject and yours and A51's points when I have the time to present my idea's fully rather than half heartedly.. In the mean time, I'm still looking up points in support of my theory.

What I might suggest is that You're all right.  Some UFO's are ET; most are Human tech.

[myss427]

I'm still inclined towards my US/Nazi terrestrial tech hypothesis.

I'm extremely pushed for time at the moment, but I will be returning to the subject and yours and A51's points when I have the time to present my idea's fully rather than half heartedly.. In the mean time, I'm still looking up points in support of my theory.

If it was US/Nazi terrestrial tech why have we not seen any of it filter down after almost 70 years? I think there is mor to it than that.

[Ellirium113]

If it was US/Nazi terrestrial tech why have we not seen any of it filter down after almost 70 years? I think there is mor to it than that.

If you haven't noticed you haven't been paying attention to detail. one prime example is the "Victalen Armor" which was called "Frozen Smoke" today known as AEROGEL. Another is to look at those old Nazi designs particularly those of Richard Miethe and compare that to the declassified AVRO project 1794. Not to mention if you actually go looking for patents for some of these craft...you can find them easily enough.

Your right there is more to it than an aliens vs. Nazi craft debate. It is hard to distinguish when BOTH phenomenon are existing.

[Pimander]

Your right there is more to it than an aliens vs. Nazi craft debate. It is hard to distinguish when BOTH phenomenon are existing.

Ken Arnold possibly spotted some Horton Wing type craft (Nazi origin) and/or a Navy test plane that also looked disk(ish) shaped. I seriously doubt that the late 1940s USA wave was all down to Nazi technology though.

A lot of the anomalous radar stuff was down to the newly acquired (from the Brits) radar spoofing and other electronic counter measures which was top secret at the time.

Some of the apparent capabilities were just way beyond anything Nazi or US though.  Either the sightings were fabricated/exaggerated to put off serious investigators from studying real technology or some of the craft were not Nazi or USA technology.

One way to work out which sightings were ours is to analyse which sightings did not make it into Project Blue Book.  The ones that did not make it contained real classified information most likely.

[myss427]

If you haven't noticed you haven't been paying attention to detail. one prime example is the "Victalen Armor" which was called "Frozen Smoke" today known as AEROGEL. Another is to look at those old Nazi designs particularly those of Richard Miethe and compare that to the declassified AVRO project 1794. Not to mention if you actually go looking for patents for some of these craft...you can find them easily enough.

Your right there is more to it than an aliens vs. Nazi craft debate. It is hard to distinguish when BOTH phenomenon are existing.

I'm more referring to the craft that have been documented by the military doing right angle turns, fly at over 5,000 mph, those from that time when we had not even broken the sound barrier. You would think how far computers have come in just a few years, we should after 60+ have passenger craft visiting the planets!

[Sinny]

If you haven't noticed you haven't been paying attention to detail. one prime example is the "Victalen Armor" which was called "Frozen Smoke" today known as AEROGEL. Another is to look at those old Nazi designs particularly those of Richard Miethe and compare that to the declassified AVRO project 1794. Not to mention if you actually go looking for patents for some of these craft...you can find them easily enough.

Your right there is more to it than an aliens vs. Nazi craft debate. It is hard to distinguish when BOTH phenomenon are existing.

I second the general idea within this post - I came across that AEROGEL about two hours ago, how cool is that 

[Sinny]

I'm more referring to the craft that have been documented by the military doing right angle turns, fly at over 5,000 mph, those from that time when we had not even broken the sound barrier. You would think how far computers have come in just a few years, we should after 60+ have passenger craft visiting the planets!

I'd just like to point out that I agree that none of our 'individual' explanations need be mutually exclusive.

As we are all aware UFO's have been around for thousands of years, and not just 60.
Reports of activity on the moon spanning the last 500 years interest me.

I currently believe the VIABLE aspects of UFOlogy include Demonology and Occultism, a possible Break Away Civilisation, and and ET deception perpetrated by certain Governments in modern history.

In regards to Roswell, my gut is telling me there were no aliens.

Dr. Karla Turner, not long before she died, insisted we remain objective and stick to the FACTS.

She raised some very good points, and whilst she was investigating her own and others abductions, she did reach the conclusion that there is ZERO EVIDENCE of ET. On the other hand, there was MUCH  evidence to suggest a terrestrial explanation.

I think that rule quite easily applies to the whole phenomena at this stage.

[Sinny]

Ken Arnold possibly spotted some Horton Wing type craft (Nazi origin) and/or a Navy test plane that also looked disk(ish) shaped.

I was going to suggest the same.

Some of the apparent capabilities were just way beyond anything Nazi or US though.

But the fact remains, neither you nor I are in any position to be stating that as fact. 

Either the sightings were fabricated/exaggerated to put off serious investigators from studying real technology or some of the craft were not Nazi or USA technology.

I suggest both of these, following on from my three possible explanations presented above.

I'd also like to highlight that the Maury Island affair was clearly orchestrated. Hense my argument that there has been a control system in place since at least 1947.

I'll expand when A51 asks me too 

[Pimander]

But the fact remains, neither you nor I are in any position to be stating that as fact. 

Well either the witnesses were all mistaken or lying or there is something unexplained.  I'll say it is an almost certain fact that "we" had no technology capable of some of what was witnessed.

I'd also like to highlight that the Maury Island affair was clearly orchestrated.

You are correct.  It was a hoax.  There was definitely some interesting goings on around old Kenneth.

[Sinny]

Just a quick call in to record some notes - I'm currently lost down the rabbit whole that is Deep Politics...

Saucers, Secrets & Shickshinny Knights - Martin Davis

This is a story about Men in Black, only not the kind you see at the movies. These men in black don't cover up UFO incidents; they promote them.

Consider Philip J. Corso. This retired U.S. Army colonel is the co-author (with Bill Birne) of The Day After Roswell, a recent release from Pocket Books whose publication was timed to coincide with last summer's much hyped anniversary of the alleged UFO crash at Roswell, New Mexico in 1947. In the book, Corso presents himself as a national security insider who is coming clean about the UFO phenomenon and the U.S. government's involvement with it. The book--which contains no index, no footnotes, and virtually no named sources--reads like a bad episode of NBC's dimwitted Dark Skies, outdoing much science fiction in the fantastic quality of its claims about UFOs, EBEs, and the like.

Among other things, Corso claims that in the early sixties he headed the Army's Foreign Technology Division, in which capacity he oversaw the handling of alien material recovered from a saucer crash in New Mexico. Moreover, Corso says his office supplied portions of the saucer debris to various defense contractors and high-tech labs (who were led to think that it was stolen Soviet technology) who developed out of the bestowal such modern marvels as the computer chip, fiber optics, and kevlar. (Of course, Tommy Lee Jones says something similar in the movie Men In Black, adding velcro, microwave ovens, and, as I recall, karaoke machines to the mix; but Corso purports to be serious about this.)

And that's just for starters. He goes on to regale us with tales of dead alien bodies on display at army bases and secret installations on the moon. Oh yes, and then there's the truth ("now it can be told!", as they used to say in the old Captain America comics) about Reagan's Strategic Defense initiative. Turns out they didn't call it "Star Wars" for nothing, as its real purpose, according to Corso, was not to deflect a missile attack by the Russkies, but to counter the threat posed by the inscrutable saucer men. This, of course, led to the end of the Cold War, when Reagan agreed to let the Soviets use Star Wars technology to defend the USSR against the same galactic menace.

It gets curiouser still. Corso was formerly a "research assistant" to right-wing segregationist Senator Strom Thurmond (R-South Carolina), the oldest, longest-serving, and (for many) most annoying presence in the U.S. Congress. As Corso's old boss, Thurmond was persuaded to write the forward to The Day After Roswell, a coup the publishers emphasize with a big blurb on the cover. However, Thurmond apparently neglected to read or even inquire about the book he was plugging; when someone woke him up (he's well into his nineties) and explained that he was in effect endorsing the existence of UFOs, Thurmond reacted with an announcement disavowing any knowledge of Corso's kooky-sounding subject matter.

Given such bizarre turns, as well as the complete lack of support for Corso's claims, a reasonable person might surmise that Corso is either a) a shameless hustler trying to milk a popular myth, b) a mental case, or c) a provocateur whose "work" is meant to disrupt serious inquiry into UFOs and discredit the tiny group of writers and researchers who try to engage the phenomenon with some semblance of intellectual integrity. Option c, in other words, would cast Corso as a debunker of UFOs, since the most likely impact of his outrageous claims will be reinforcement of the notion that ufology is strictly the province of lunatics and fools.

National Security

About ufology, one thing is now certain: it's been the province, for decades, of intelligence agents. Confirming what many have long suspected, the CIA recently admitted that, during the 1950s, it recommended that the National Security Council adopt a policy of debunking UFO reports. The Spring issue of the CIA journal Studies of Intelligence contains an article by historian Gerald K. Haines entitled "CIA's Role in the Study of UFOs, 1947-1990."1 The article asserts that concerns over UFO "hysteria" prompted the CIA in 1953 "to create a special outside scientific panel to look into the security implications" of the phenomenon. According to Haines, the panel concluded that there was nothing scientifically unusual going on, i.e., that UFOs were not alien spacecraft. However, the panel was concerned about the impact that a nationwide wave of UFO hysteria might have on Cold War security. If the Soviets were to devise some sneaky means of inducing such a panic, then we might have a real problem. According to the panel, the resultant furor could distract the populace and clog vital lines of communication, making us sitting ducks for a nuclear sneak attack.2 (It all sounds a bit like something from Dr. Strangelove: "Mr. President, I regret to inform you that we've discovered a UFO Hysteria Gap!") Therefore the panel recommended that the NSC "debunk UFO reports and institute a policy of public education to reassure the public of the lack of evidence behind UFOs."3 (Can you say, "swamp gas"?) The report further recommended that the project enlist the aid of mass media outlets, ad agencies, business organizations, and "even the Disney Corporation to get the message across."4

Yes, that's right, boys and girls, according to a CIA journal, the Disney Corporation played a secret role in Cold War ufology, though that's a topic for another occasion (or perhaps an animated musical). Still, what seems clear is that the spooks saw the realms of mass media and pop culture as areas of real concern about the UFO phenomenon. According to Haines' article, they set out years ago to manipulate popular beliefs.

One suspects that certain government agencies have persisted in working to manipulate popular belief in UFOs. Moreover, one suspects that at some point such agencies decided to widen the net and approach UFOs from the other direction as well. Currently, the ranks of ufologists are full of ex-military and national security types. Moreover, many of these individuals affirm the existence of UFOs, giving voice to some of the strangest extant scenarios regarding the topic.5 Like Corso, many of them offer wild tales and little or no supporting evidence. Consider Bob Lazar, a source for much of the lore surrounding "Area 51" in Nevada. Lazar claims to have worked on top secret government projects, some of which involved the "back-engineering" of recovered alien saucer technology. He claims to have observed aliens, or alien-like entities, at underground bases. Unfortunately, he can produce no real evidence to support his claims.6 (It is perhaps interesting to note that the man who "discovered" Lazar, Las Vegas reporter George Knapp, also strongly promotes the reliability of Corso.)7



From the Pentagon perspective, "witnesses" and "testimony" of this type might prove useful in a couple of ways. Given their dubiousness, such reports can obviously be used to debunk UFOs, as per the recommendations of the 1953 CIA panel. However, among those inclined to believe such claims, outrageous stories of the Lazar type can provide a convenient smokescreen. Smokescreen for what, you ask? Well, for what everyone--both UFO believers and skeptics--seems to agree is going on at Area 51, namely the development and testing of super-high tech weaponry. The "debate" is over whether or not the technology in question is derived from "alien" sources. But for those charged with running such a super-weapons lab, a prime interest is secrecy. To such cloak-and-dagger types, wild stories about UFO bases and alien bodies may be just what the spin doctor ordered. They could be very effective at distracting the public from, and confusing the enemy about, what's really going on. ("The Pentagon bookstore," Corso co-author Birne enthuses, "stocks The Day After Roswell..")8

In other words, I'm suggesting that the national security establishment decided, at some point, to go beyond the recommendations of the 1953 CIA panel regarding UFOs. Moreover, they in effect decided to do to the American public what they feared the Soviets would do; they decided to contribute to--to foment--UFO hysteria or, at least, confusion. Of course, their motivation for doing so would have been different from that of the purported Soviet enemy. The rationale would be classically Cold War: we have to develop new weaponry and we have to conceal that development; moreover, we have to know what might happen if an enemy power were to induce UFO hysteria nationwide.

The same kind of twisted logic drove other secret U.S. projects during the Cold War. Korean War reports about Red Chinese "brainwashing" of American prisoners provided the rationale for decades of CIA research into mind control techniques. When atomic war loomed as a real possibility in the fifties, the need to understand its effects was used to justify experiments which exposed unwitting Americans to nuclear radiation. Compared to those interventions in the name of national security, the creation of some UFO hysteria seems a modest imposition.

So, to return to Corso and the question of his purpose: he may be hoping to cash in on a popular topic; he may be some sort of kook; or he may be carrying water for the Pentagon (or all of the above). We can't say for sure, but a couple of things are clear: he has a background with the Pentagon, with, more specifically, military intelligence; and there is evidence to suggest that he's had a career as a disinformation specialist.

Secret Societies

For details on this point we must turn to the literature on the Kennedy assassination. That, you may object, is like jumping from the frying pan into the fire, for if there is another topic of popular interest that's as whacked-out as UFOs, it's the Kennedy assassination. But bear with me, and keep in mind that the authors I am about to cite approach their research in the most scrupulous fashion. Unlike Corso, they footnote their work with scholarly precision and distinguish clearly between facts and inferences, theories and speculations. The books detailing Corso's background include Deep Politics and the Death of JFK by UC/Berkeley professor Peter Dale Scott; The Man Who Knew Too Much by journalist Dick Russell; and a tome about American intelligence (which does not emphasize the JFK case) called The Old Boys by Burton Hersh. They concur on the following history:

In the early sixties Corso was a member of a secret society called The Sovereign Order of Saint John of Jerusalem, also known as the Shickshinny Knights of Malta, after the Pennsylvania town where the order was based. (This group is not to be confused with the other--and better known--Knights of Malta, the Rome-based Sovereign Military Order of Malta.)9 The order's "Armed Services Committee" was full of retired military types with ultra-rightist sympathies and included generals from the MacArthur circle like Bonner Fellers and Pedro del Valle. The Committee also included British Admiral Sir Barry Domville, who was fingered by the English as a Nazi agent and jailed during World War II, and General Charles Willoughby, former chief of intelligence for General Douglas MacArthur, whom MacArthur referred to as "my little fascist."10

The Shickshinny Knights were fanatical anticommunists. Some of them, like Willoughby, were affiliated with international ultra-rightist organizations like the World Anticommunist League and the International Committee for the Defense of Christian Culture. Shickshinny, PA was itself the home of many White Russians who had fled Russia when the Bolsheviks came to power. In 1963, the Grand Chancellor of the Order was Col. Charles Thourot Pichel; during the thirties, Pichel had lobbied the German government to appoint him the official American liaison to Hitler.11

Continued at Link:
http://www.orderstjohn.org/lumpen/saucers.htm


Sovereign Order of St John of Jerusalem, Knights of Malta 1956

http://www.orderstjohn.org/selfstyle/shicksh.htm



Philip J. Corso - By Armen Victorian

The following might be of interest to proponents of Roswell, and those
awaiting Corso's forthcoming book on this topic.

"After the assassination [JFK], Frank Capell was active in disseminating
conspiratorial "phase one" stories linking Oswald to Russia and Ruby to
Castro's Cuba (20 WH 75, 26 WH 608), some of them apparently from
intelligence sources such as Carlos Bringuier's colleagues in the DRE (26
WH 610). Capell was not acting alone: "phase one" stories linking Oswald
and Ruby to Communists were circulated by Willoughby's associates PHILIP J.
CORSO, a veteran of Army Intelligence who had retired by 1963 to work for
the segregationist Senator Strom Thurmond, and Cuban exile Salvador Diaz
Verson, a former chief of Cuban military intelligence.

Corso, the army intelligence veteran, was like Willoughby a foe of the CIA
from the right, having tangled with the Agency in his years under C. D.
Jackson as a member of Eisenhower's Operations Control Board. In 1963-64
Corso and Willoughby were part of a secret rightwing group, the
"Shickshinny Knights of Malta" (so called after their headquarters in
Shickshinny, Pennsylvania, to distinguish them from the more famous Roman
Catholic Sovereign Military Order of Malta based in Rome). The group
provided a home to dissident retired military officers dissatisfied with
the CIA's internationalism, many of them, like Willoughby and General
Bonner Fellers, veterans of the old Hunt-MacArthur-Pawley coalition in the
early 1950s. By 1963 the group's leading asset in their anti-CIA propaganda
was a Polish intelligence defector, Michael Goleniewski, who had claimed to
audiences inside and outside the CIA that the Agency penetrated by the KGB
at a high level.

Corso built on this anti-CIA paranoia by telling his friend and fellow
Senate staffer Julien Sourwine, who made sure it was relayed to the FBI,
that Oswald was tied to a Communist ring inside the CIA, and was doubling
as an informant for the FBI. Shickshinny Knight Herman Kimsey, who claimed
to have been Goleniewski's handler inside the CIA, also spun an elaborate
story about how his CIA duties had put him in touch with Kennedy's assassin
- the mystery man in Mexico. Finally, the chief press contact of the
Shickshinny Knights, Guy Richards of the New York Journal-American,
published the claim (soon taken up by Frank Coppel, by the John Birch
Society, and by Willoughby's American Security Council) that Oswald, like
another alleged KGB assassin (Bogdan Stashynsky), had been trained at a KGB
assassination school in Minsk.

Willoughby was in auspicious company, for the Shickshinny Knights had an
"Armed Services Committee" that in 1963 read like a Who's Who of retired
military men at the extremist fringe. All these "Knights" had been "singled
out for their brilliant and outstanding careers as Soldiers of Christ and
Advocates of a Free World". Besides Willoughby, they included a number of
other members of  MacArthur's old team - Brigadier General Bonner Fellers,
Lt. General Pedro del Valle, Marine General Lemuel Shepherd. British
Admiral Sir Barry Domville, jailed in England during World War Two as a
Nazi agent, was also on the list.

So was Colonel Philip J. Corso, a twenty-year Army Intelligence career man
until his retirement in August 1963. He had been the military Operations
Coordinating Board's delegate to the CIA group planning the 1954 Guatemalan
coup. In 1956 Corso had sought to reactivate fifty surviving garrisons of
East European paramilitary units still hanging on in West Germany and tied
to the Gehlen spy network. When his Volunteer Freedom Corps, dedicated to
rolling back communism, was scuttled as too radical by the Eisenhower
administration, Corso attributed the defeat to "lies by our liberal
darlings". A staunch foe of what he considered a laissez-faire CIA, Corso
testified before Congress on "military muzzling" after General Walker was
kicked out of West Germany in 1961. Upon leaving the Army Intelligence,
Corso went to work in 1963 as a "research assistant" for segregationist
senator Strom Thurmond of South Carolina. And, after the Kennedy's
assassination, Corso was among the first to spread rumors hinting that
Oswald was tied to a Communist ring inside the CIA - and doubling as an
informant for the FBI.  Corso once sued the liberal columnist Drew Pearson
for defamation - writing about Corso's extremist activities.

It would be extremely unwise for UFO community researchers to accept
Corso's version of the Roswell incident without asking some serious
questions on Corso's real intent for such a publication

Armen Victorian

http://ufoupdateslist.com/1997/mar/m10-016.shtml

Anyone else noticing the trend that ALLLLLLLLLLLLLL these claims of aliens are coming from the RIGHT WING.... ?

Also, the 'Wandering Bishops' that  were so involved with the JKF Assasination and the Saucers of 47' have been pin-pointed by Peter Levenda as Intelligence agents working beneath Guy Bannister, famous for his X-files... Supposing the Charitable status of 'Priests and Bishops' make their activities harder to pin-point and investigate...

If anyone one wants to take the bait and run with this line - help would be appreciated. Most leads now can only come from purchased books, I think I'll make an effort to purchase one or two each month from now on.

The Phoenix Journals I've linked previously elude to these 'Bishops' threatening and perhaps killing Wendelle Stevens - The Journals have a confusing history themselves, there are claims that they were a CIA Op, Foreign Agency Op, Ex Naval Intel and of course... real alien messages  But who ever was behind them - seems to know thy stuff...

Colonel Wendelle Stevens. Colonel Stevens probably has investigated more UFO incidents than any other one individual. Further, an assassination plot was arranged and attempted while Colonel Stevens was incarcerated. Strangely, the perpetrator, who dressed as a religious leader, was caught in the act, turned over to the FBI, and has never been heard from again. So be it.

PJ - 04

[Pimander]

There is definitely documentary proof from FOIAs that Corso was seen by sections of intel as a pain in the ass.  It was well have been the CIA if I remember but I can't remember where I saw them.

"Corso's military record confirms that from 1953 to 1956, he was given intelligence staff assignments on both the Psychological Strategy Board (PSB) and the Operations Coordinating Board (OCB).



This is consistent with an FBI Report that states that Corso was "assigned to the Operations Coordinating Board (OCB), National Security Council."10



It can therefore be confirmed that Corso was assigned as an intelligence staff member to at least two committees that performed important psychological warfare functions within the Eisenhower administration.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/exopolitica/esp_exopolitics_ZZO.htm

Given the information available, given the mistakes in Corso's book, and given his inflation of his own importance during his military career, it seems that the logical conclusion is that Corso's claims are of little value. They added nothing to what was already known, and certainly have detracted from the whole of the Roswell case. When his claims break apart, those who know little about Roswell become convinced that the whole case is built on structures similar to those built by Corso.

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/philip-corso-and-day-after-roswell-again.html

SO was Corso trying to distract us from something or not?

[Sinny]

SO was Corso trying to distract us from something or not?

Cough, Nazi's, cough! Lol

Or alternatively, if the Shickshinny Knights were really full of 'White Russians' then perhaps those to...

Dr. Peter Beter spoke about the White Russians being far superior to the US in regards to space weapons and tech... Beter seemed to know a lot.. And guess what - for all his 'conspiracy theories' he never once mentioned aliens..

[zorgon]

Roswell or Bust