Re: Conspiracy, ISlamic State and Communism

[rdunk]

I continue to be amazed at how some people have "CONSPIRACY" at the very front of their frontal brain lobe, for every situation that arises, regardless of whether it is local, national, or international. Doesn't matter what the situation is, it can always be molded and published as being a conspiracy.

Of course, for many, the Conspiracy factor is an income producer in the news and information business, because there are so many people who are likewise motivated by every factor of conspiracy that exists, past, present, and future.  It is so much so that it comes across more like a "religion", than do some of the religions that call themselves religions.

The real problem for this is, every act of life's existence is not from or by "conspiracy". Yes, there are/may be some crooks around that can conspire to cause wrong and do bad things, but, even then, the real "conspirator" is not even generally considered (simply a spiritual thought).

In my opinion, treating/calling non-conspiracy situations as if they are of conspiracy does extreme harm to the public good. Yes, it may "tickle some conspiracists ears", but it often significantly and harmfully distracts from actions needed, especially for situations such as the current ebola outbreak.

Like, right now, here, "talking conspiracy", has absolutely nothing to do with the reality of Ebola infecting and killing people every day. However Ebola has been loosed in Africa (40 years or so ago), it was discovered with the outbreak in 1976, and the challenge to the world now is to get ebola stopped. At this point, there is no gain to expend a lot of effort dealing with "conspiracy possibilities", as that such is not complimentary to dealing with the current devastating results. 

I do expect these discussions to change somewhat, if and when some of our friends and relatives begin to become infected with the Ebola virus - just think about that a little - no, this is not "porn"! This is the circumstance of reality in Africa, that has made its way to America and other places. This is real real real!!! And we are somewhat talking about it, as if it were the "space game" that is also currently being discussed here.

There needs to be a "ball to the walls" 24/7/365 days of the year research for a killer of the infection. Ebola is one of the biggest enemies we have ever faced, AND WE NEED TO VIEW THE SITUATION AS A GREAT WAR!

All IMHO, of course.

[undo11]

I continue to be amazed at how some people have "CONSPIRACY" at the very front of their frontal brain lobe, for every situation that arises, regardless of whether it is local, national, or international. Doesn't matter what the situation is, it can always be molded and published as being a conspiracy.

well i have an off topic conspiracy theory, that ISIS is actually a bunch of communists, and the whole thing will be used to blame anybody with an abrahamic faith of any kind.  so if you survive a list of about a kajillion different things you are being blamed for as an american white person, particularly an american white person of an abrahamic religion, don't worry, they'll get you on the upswing.

ebola vaccine?  not taking it.

[Glaucon]

well i have an off topic conspiracy theory, that ISIS is actually a bunch of communists, and the whole thing will be used to blame anybody with an abrahamic faith

That's more or less an appropriate characterization of ISIS's high command and political leaders.

     The heritage of communist totalitarian regimes or more importantly, the dismantling of them, is a tremendous task. When that heritage is stealthy and in an unstable environment, it has the capacity to weave itself into the fabric of the public's values. In addition, when that heritage has handy a foreign entity for which he is able to call his enemy, the public has a much greater probability of genuinely regarding that entity as his enemy too. This theoretical model is usually accompanied by a radically insufficient flow of free ideas and is nearly void of the prerequisites required to facilitate them. Controlling the inertia of public in the environment I described then becomes a nearly indefinite sustainable platform for Communism/Totalitarianism.

     It is still my strong opinion that strong Non-nationalist education is the only force capable of both dismantling this environment internally then successfully resurrecting a democratic platform atop the communist rubble. All of this must be from that of the public's hand. Without education, history's tough lessons reoccur repeatedly without the benefit of a compilation of "recorded accounts of what not to do again,"

ISIS's understanding (misunderstanding) of world history, and their utterly lacking qualitative study of their own history makes the public incapable of positive constructivism.

[rdunk]

It is pretty obvious that ISIS knows exactly what they are doing, and it is all about their religious fanaticism! These are not communists per se, as communists have presented themselves in the past. This is a global war, with ISIS (muslims) against EVERYONE who is not a muslim. It is what it is! They are either converting, or killing killing killing.  About the only difference in what ISIS does and what Ebola does is............Ebola does not convert.

ISIS may very well be in your front yard one of these days, what are you going to do??

[Pimander]

ISIS's understanding (misunderstanding) of world history, and their utterly lacking qualitative study of their own history

what are they American? LOL

[Glaucon]

It is pretty obvious that ISIS knows exactly what they are doing, and it is all about their religious fanaticism! These are not communists per se, as communists have presented themselves in the past. This is a global war, with ISIS (muslims) against EVERYONE who is not a muslim. It is what it is! They are either converting, or killing killing killing.  About the only difference in what ISIS does and what Ebola does is............Ebola does not convert.

ISIS may very well be in your front yard one of these days, what are you going to do??

My means of describing ISIS are intentionally neglecting micro analysis of localized environments, specifically what they think they're fighting for. It's a Macroanalysis.

Worth noting: There is a Hierarchy or an Echelon that forms the groups command and control structure. And it is radically less democratic than most State military structures are or were. Unlike the United States Armed Forces, who has civilian DoD personal on all levels vertically and horizontally, ordinate and sub-ordinate.

ISIS is more like an organized crime syndicate where the leaders are constantly trying to out maneuver each other for control. Whatever ISIS's ground forces believe their fighting for is irrelevant to their upper commands end-game.

[Glaucon]

what are they American? LOL

[The Matrix Traveller]

I don't believe it is dependent on Drama. Rather, drama debilitates the germination of anything alternative to the users current stimuli.

When I wrote; The human species seems (NOT actually) to be dependant on drama I should have perhaps used other words ?

The species often desires (by choice) Drama for what ever reasons.

Sometime to manipulate or on other occasions an attempt to hide something.   

[Glaucon]

Ah I see.

"Seems" is one of those words I reluctantly expect to be inserted (It commonly is) as 'filler' without much regard to the impact is has on a statement. I suppose I've now unconsciously disregard it! Thanks for pointing that out! 

[petrus4]

well i have an off topic conspiracy theory, that ISIS is actually a bunch of communists

Can you define Communism within this context, Undo?  I suppose I really should read the Communist Manifesto one of these days, but I've never been able to get through more than about a third of it, without experiencing an overwhelming urge to vomit, and my brain rebelling outright.

Given my stance on post-scarcity, that might surprise some people; but I think the way to explain that, is to emphasise that what I want actually is not Communism at all.

[Pimander]

Can you define Communism within this context, Undo?  I suppose I really should read the Communist Manifesto one of these days, but I've never been able to get through more than about a third of it, without experiencing an overwhelming urge to vomit, and my brain rebelling outright.

Communism is basically the common ownership of the means of production.  Most Americans equate Communism with totalitarianism.  Some Communists are totalitarians and others are not.

This is half the problem with these ad hominems.  They are often nonsense and confuse the issue.

IS have taken hand picked parts of Marxist thought but they are certainly not Communists as they do not believe anyone who is not a Sunni should own anything within the Islamic State which means they are anything but Communists.  They are more akin to religiously motivated fascists (the traditional enemy of Communism).

[Glaucon]

Communism is basically the common ownership of the means of production.  Most Americans equate Communism with totalitarianism.  Some Communists are totalitarians and others are not.

This is half the problem with these ad hominems.  They are often nonsense and confuse the issue.

IS have taken hand picked parts of Marxist thought but they are certainly not Communists as they do not believe anyone who is not a Sunni should own anything within the Islamic State which means they are anything but Communists.

That's an accurate characterization.

I agree, throwing around the 'bad juju' words simply leaves most scratching their head or trying to remember how to draw a venn diagram 

They are more akin to religiously motivated fascists (the traditional enemy of Communism).

That's a totally appropriate inference and probably one that best applies informally here.

It is rather ironic that all sects of radicalized Islam call Israel "Fascists" when they're not calling them "Fascist Zionists". 

[Wrabbit2000]

Communism is basically the common ownership of the means of production.  Most Americans equate Communism with totalitarianism.  Some Communists are totalitarians and others are not.

There is a thought I want to throw in on this. Particularly since I'm spending this and last semester studying men like Marx and the time period that all originally came together.

I think your definition is 100% perfect. It is, almost word for word, how it was defined on the mid term and in text books. It is also how I came to find it defined when I wrote a paper on Anarchism (where Marx began with his original ideology) last year. I'll add, despite Marx coming around to the communist ideals a bit later from his Anarchist roots....Communism, on paper, is among the most perfect, equitable and ideal systems of government man has ever devised ...... right up until man tries to take it off paper and make it work among real people with diverse opinions.

I'd say Americans relate Communism with totalitarianism (and other isms that don't really fit and don't fit at ALL on paper) because man has, almost without exception, resorted to similar tactics in the pursuit of Communism. We can look at every nation which has attempted to operate under it, before reforming away from the true form (China) or collapsing (Soviets) and an assortment of smaller ones. They all resorted to and then commonly used oppression and open force to maintain and protect their attempt at communism.

Personally? I'd say Communism, in it's essence, is probably the best form of Government we'll never have...because we just can't agree on anything long enough to see it work. What follows is always ugly and carries a BIG body count, by historic example (Somewhere upwards of 100 million civilians in the 20th century). Human nature sucks.

[petrus4]

I think your definition is 100% perfect. It is, almost word for word, how it was defined on the mid term and in text books. It is also how I came to find it defined when I wrote a paper on Anarchism (where Marx began with his original ideology) last year.

As I've written elsewhere, I think Marx was told to develop Communism as a strawman for the purpose of discrediting not only Anarchism, but the idea that any other economic or social systems were possible whatsoever.  The only way you can reconcile a monoculture with a belief in freedom, is if you are also convinced that the reason why the monoculture exists, is because it is the only thing that could ever possibly work.

I'll add, despite Marx coming around to the communist ideals a bit later from his Anarchist roots....Communism, on paper, is among the most perfect, equitable and ideal systems of government man has ever devised ...... right up until man tries to take it off paper and make it work among real people with diverse opinions.

It only seems perfect from the point of view that common ownership of infrastructure, ends up meaning that there is no individual duplication of labour, which there inevitably is if the ownership of said infrastructure is individual.  The other practical problem with common ownership of infrastructure, is that the individual owns nothing, which in turn means that if the common system fails for any reason, individual human beings will starve.

If the only means of producing food is owned by the government, and the government goes rogue, then it is no longer possible for the public to survive, unless said survival is purely at the government's consent.

I'd say Americans relate Communism with totalitarianism (and other isms that don't really fit and don't fit at ALL on paper) because man has, almost without exception, resorted to similar tactics in the pursuit of Communism. We can look at every nation which has attempted to operate under it, before reforming away from the true form (China) or collapsing (Soviets) and an assortment of smaller ones. They all resorted to and then commonly used oppression and open force to maintain and protect their attempt at communism.

The problems here are centralised government, federalism, and delegation, as I have already written.  Freedom can not co-exist with any of those three things.

Personally? I'd say Communism, in it's essence, is probably the best form of Government we'll never have...because we just can't agree on anything long enough to see it work. What follows is always ugly and carries a BIG body count, by historic example (Somewhere upwards of 100 million civilians in the 20th century). Human nature sucks.

The real problem with human nature, is our insistence on being ruled by psychopaths.  We still have that now, in our supposed democracies.  Mao and Stalin were psychopaths; yet when they ordered the deaths of other people, someone carried out those orders.  It was the same at Nuremberg, when Eichmann tried to claim that he was merely following orders, as the administrator of a concentration camp.

Although I quoted this link to Undo in another thread, I will also quote it here because I consider it so valuable.

http://www.freeyourmindaz.com/uploads/1/2/8/3/12830241/the-most-dangerous-superstition-larken-rose-2011.pdf

This PDF talks about the human insistence on obedience to falsely perceived authority figures; which was the same weakness exploited by Mayer Amschel Rothschild during his initial rise to wealth, incidentally, as well as also being exploited by Hitler.

That is what really needs to change.  We need to stop being such cowards, and we also need to stop assuming that hierarchy and obedience to external authority are good things, when in reality they are the opposite.

[Wrabbit2000]

I kinda figured we'd disagree on this one a bit. At least on some key points.

As I've written elsewhere, I think Marx was told to develop Communism as a strawman for the purpose of discrediting not only Anarchism, but the idea that any other economic or social systems were possible whatsoever.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same Marx. Marx wasn't simply favorable to Anarchism. He was one of 3 men to have founded and given birth to Anarchism as a political ideology. Marx eventually counted himself a communist but in the mindset of it representing a reality which had yet been achieved. Among the core beliefs of Marx was the elimination of the State entirely and completely. Not a communist ideal as we've come to know the term today.

(Self Snip on rest)

Maybe another thread and topic on the other thoughts.

@ Village

You're right. My bad and apologies.