Stephen Fry Annihilates God

[space otter]

I read years ago that the gnostics felt humans were not capable of understanding what GOD is

and I think there may be gnostics here who don't realize they are fitting into the gnostic definition

interesting, huh..



http://gnosis.org/gnintro.htm

The Gnostic World View:
A Brief Summary of Gnosticism




GNOSTICISM IS THE TEACHING based on Gnosis, the knowledge of transcendence arrived at by way of interior, intuitive means. Although Gnosticism thus rests on personal religious experience, it is a mistake to assume all such experience results in Gnostic recognitions. It is nearer the truth to say that Gnosticism expresses a specific religious experience, an experience that does not lend itself to the language of theology or philosophy, but which is instead closely affinitized to, and expresses itself through, the medium of myth. Indeed, one finds that most Gnostic scriptures take the forms of myths. The term "myth" should not here be taken to mean "stories that are not true", but rather, that the truths embodied in these myths are of a different order from the dogmas of theology or the statements of philosophy.

In the following summary, we will attempt to encapsulate in prose what the Gnostic myths express in their distinctively poetic and imaginative language.


The Cosmos

All religious traditions acknowledge that the world is imperfect. Where they differ is in the explanations which they offer to account for this imperfection and in what they suggest might be done about it. Gnostics have their own -- perhaps quite startling -- view of these matters: they hold that the world is flawed because it was created in a flawed manner.

Like Buddhism, Gnosticism begins with the fundamental recognition that earthly life is filled with suffering. In order to nourish themselves, all forms of life consume each other, thereby visiting pain, fear, and death upon one another (even herbivorous animals live by destroying the life of plants). In addition, so-called natural catastrophes -- earthquakes, floods, fires, drought, volcanic eruptions -- bring further suffering and death in their wake. Human beings, with their complex physiology and psychology, are aware not only of these painful features of earthly existence. They also suffer from the frequent recognition that they are strangers living in a world that is flawed and absurd.

Many religions advocate that humans are to be blamed for the imperfections of the world. Supporting this view, they interpret the Genesis myth as declaring that transgressions committed by the first human pair brought about a "fall" of creation resulting in the present corrupt state of the world. Gnostics respond that this interpretation of the myth is false. The blame for the world's failings lies not with humans, but with the creator. Since -- especially in the monotheistic religions -- the creator is God, this Gnostic position appears blasphemous, and is often viewed with dismay even by non-believers.

Ways of evading the recognition of the flawed creation and its flawed creator have been devised over and over, but none of these arguments have impressed Gnostics. The ancient Greeks, especially the Platonists, advised people to look to the harmony of the universe, so that by venerating its grandeur they might forget their immediate afflictions. But since this harmony still contains the cruel flaws, forlornness and alienation of existence, this advice is considered of little value by Gnostics. Nor is the Eastern idea of Karma regarded by Gnostics as an adequate explanation of creation's imperfection and suffering. Karma at best can only explain how the chain of suffering and imperfection works. It does not inform us in the first place why such a sorrowful and malign system should exist.

Once the initial shock of the "unusual" or "blasphemous" nature of the Gnostic explanation for suffering and imperfection of the world wears off, one may begin to recognize that it is in fact the most sensible of all explanations. To appreciate it fully, however, a familiarity with the Gnostic conception of the Godhead is required, both in its original essence as the True God and in its debased manifestation as the false or creator God.


more at the link:        http://gnosis.org/gnintro.htm

this opinion brought to you by wise ass otter

[rdunk]

I read years ago that the gnostics felt humans were not capable of understanding what GOD is

and I think there may be gnostics here who don't realize they are fitting into the gnostic definition

interesting, huh..

Simply another fairy-like tale by someone or some group of people that chooses to believe there is no God. There are unlimited ways and reasons that people use to say "I do not believe there is a God", but the end result is usually about the same for most - bash all of those that do believe. It is a bit funny that many of these "unbelievers" do actually develop their own "religion of sorts", on the basis of their own beliefs about everything real and imagined. And that somewhat describes the gist of what is discussed in this brief bit about "gnostic thought", IMO!

[space otter]

but the end result is usually about the same for most - bash all of those that do believe.

Rdunk
please allow me to make one thing very clear.. I was not bashing anyone who has a religion.
I was not bashing your religion or rock's or anyone else's.

I was only commenting that some posting here sounded gnostic without knowing it, and in my too much info way added what they claim.

personally I have not yet  found any religion or belief system that I want to be part of..
I have found good points in most of them but the deal that I have to feel a certain way about those not belong to said group totally turns me off

I  walk this life with honor, giving each I come across space to decide and live their own way
when possible I will reach out to help when ask - sadly I have learnt to wait until ask
I force no views on anyone and only ask that in return
if you find that is fowl.. I nod respectfully in your direction and go on my way

now after having said that in an holier that thou way 
I also have an opinioin (sometimes very strong opinions) and I am not afraid to state it/them
but that is all it is.. an opinion  I do not need any followers  or fights

stepping off my soap box I send you a friendly wave

[zorgon]

Simply another fairy-like tale by someone or some group of people that chooses to believe there is no God.

But there are so many Gods to choose from and every one has supporters that say; "MY God id the only true God...  the rest are fairy Tales!"

There are unlimited ways and reasons that people use to say "I do not believe there is a God", but the end result is usually about the same for most - bash all of those that do believe.

Perhaps non believers in YOUR Fairy Tale would not be so ready to Bash if those that do believe in your version were not so busy sticking feet in doors to try to convert you

"Ye REAP what Ye Sow" comes to mind

It is a bit funny that many of these "unbelievers" do actually develop their own "religion of sorts", on the basis of their own beliefs about everything real and imagined. And that somewhat describes the gist of what is discussed in this brief bit about "gnostic thought", IMO!

HAIL the Mighty GNOSOS!!!  Enter the Temple Here



Well all that said and done... I still like Fry's answer if he did find himself at the Pearly Gates

[zorgon]

I say we Vote for Odin!!!



Invocation to Odhinn All-Father

Hail Odhinn, Lord of Asgard,
Warrior and wanderer, valiant and wise,
You to whom all the gods of Asgard look,
Sky Father on the eight-legged steed,
You who traded an eye for wisdom
And ruled a turbulent realm,
Give us the wisdom to accept
The twists and turns of Fate
Even as you surrendered yourself
To the mercies of the Norns.
Protect us, All-Father,
From what harm may come to us.
Lead us through the wilderness
And bring us safely to that great hall
That you reserve only for the brave of spirit.

Praise ODIN!!!  MEAD anyone?

[rdunk]

Space Otter, I did not intentionally mean to imply that you were doing any "bashing" - it was intended as a general statement relative to the general experience of most religions. And of course the religious groups do their part of bashing others too, of those both in and out of religions unfortunately!!

As has been said before, there will be a final chapter to all of this, and then we will all know...................! Of course, some of us do believe that we know already!!:)

[zorgon]

As has been said before, there will be a final chapter to all of this, and then we will all know...................!

Yup When your body is Food for Wyrms :

Of course, some of us do believe that we know already!!:)

On this point... some of us KNOW and no longer require a Fairy Tale belief. THTA is the big difference.

You are welcome to you BELIEF,  but I KNOW what lies ahead for me   Maybe our paths will meet again and I can say "See I told you so"

[rdunk]

Maybe our paths will meet again and I can say "See I told you so"

LOL! Z, for my part, the "See I told you so" thinking will no longer exist, as that is the way we think today! But, what we have to look forward to is, all of that such will have passed away, and we will have nothing but love for one another. And I certainly hope our (many of us here) paths will cross, and that we are together for all of eternity, in the "New Jerusalem" with Him!! YEA!!!!!!!!!!!

[zorgon]

in the "New Jerusalem" with Him!!

Now see? this is a problem..

WHY would it be New Jerusalem?  Did not the Jews reject Jesus?...

[Dyna]

If our would turns out to be virtual, will the creator of it be called God?

There are many ways to look at all of the questions .

If you created a life form and wanted to give them free will and yet wanted only those who ended up displaying what you consider the perfect qualities in the end, knowing that there is no such thing as death and the life span of your creatures being an instant to you, may you now do what the Army does, break them and see what is built, who sustains the pain with honor? (tempered)

What if god and aliens beings or even fallen sons of god have become confused? Why would the sons who fell make the choices they made if perfect? Can a perfect being become imperfect?

What if you built a perfect model complete with life forms that you treasure and love...could the choices they make because you wished them to have free will corrupt your original plan and bring about harmful change including disease and changed balance of species?

[rdunk]

Now see? this is a problem..

WHY would it be New Jerusalem?  Did not the Jews reject Jesus?...

Did not the Jews reject Jesus?...?   Yes, but this is a part of God's overall plan...............even though the Jews for the most part did reject Jesus, God has made a way for the redemption of the Jews near/at the time of the end.

WHY would it be New Jerusalem?........ EVERYTHING on this planet, including the planet, will be destroyed!! This fact is presented in the Bible's book of "The Revelation", wherein St. John the Devine describes all that he saw and heard in a vision on the Lord's day. He presents much in this Book of Revelation about life, and the life to come. In Chapter 21, he tells about "a new heaven and a new Earth", and mentions "the first heaven and the first Earth were passed away, and there was no more sea".

Revelation 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."

And then John goes on to describe this "New Jerusalem" in very much explicit detail in other verses of this chapter.

[zorgon]

If our would turns out to be virtual, will the creator of it be called God?

In the old days of BBS Systems before the internet we called the operators of these boards SysGods   Gigas uses the term System Lords like Star Gate does

There are many ways to look at all of the questions .

In Tibet... on a sign on a gate to the Potala it reads (translated) "A thousand Monk, a Thousand Religions"  That pretty much covers it

If you created a life form and wanted to give them free will and yet wanted only those who ended up displaying what you consider the perfect qualities in the end, knowing that there is no such thing as death and the life span of your creatures being an instant to you, may you now do what the Army does, break them and see what is built, who sustains the pain with honor? (tempered)

True but THIS line has always bothered me...

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

That one line to me indicates a group of Aliens who wanted to keep us in the dark. It is also this one passage that fuels the ancient Alien theories... because IF as the Bible Thumpers claim... the words are to be taken literally, there really is no other way to interpret that phrase

What if god and aliens beings or even fallen sons of god have become confused? Why would the sons who fell make the choices they made if perfect? Can a perfect being become imperfect?

Even if there was a God who started the ball roling... evolution proves that certain species fail and others thrive. It is the missing links that argue for a god or alien intervention

I always wondered why God needed an ARMY to stop Lucifer and his army... A true omnipotent god could just as easily wave his hand and say "Begone" since he supposedly created Lucifer et al as well...

Oddly enough I cannot seem to get anyone to give me a straight answer to that problem. Heck most believers cannot even grasp that their book says there were 14 of each clean beast and four of each unclean beasts on that Ark (says so in the Book )

What if you built a perfect model complete with life forms that you treasure and love...could the choices they make because you wished them to have free will corrupt your original plan and bring about harmful change including disease and changed balance of species?

Then you might get pissed off and throw a hissy fit... and drown everything

But then  how did Kangaroos get back to Australia after the flood landed the Ark in Turkey?

[zorgon]

EVERYTHING on this planet, including the planet, will be destroyed!! This fact is presented in the Bible's book of "The Revelation", wherein St. John the Devine describes all that he saw and heard in a vision on the Lord's day.

So revelation is a 'vision'

What IF that 'vision' came from the PAST... when the planet really did get destroyed in the war with Tiamet? What IF the true are really was a space craft with domes sections to support life until the planet healed?  In that case many generations would pass on that ship and the story would change over the years

The fact you say Revelations is a vision, my version is just as valid as yours. The difference is I have some proof to back up my version

He presents much in this Book of Revelation about life, and the life to come. In Chapter 21, he tells about "a new heaven and a new Earth", and mentions "the first heaven and the first Earth were passed away, and there was no more sea".

The Sun will eventually get big enough and fry earth... that is inevitable... but it won't happen in our lifetime. No prediction needed

Revelation 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

Well since it is only a vision. quoting it as fact is really silly.

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."

Sounds like the captain of the Ark Ship  sitting in his Captain's chair to me

The Sumerians believed in their Cosmology that the Earth was a flat disk with a domed tin roof... The story of NOAH came from the Sumerians...

Meet Captain NOAH   see the Ark in all it's GLORY





I recommend everyone watch this. It is an old Canadian series... it was a bit hokey in the acting but the story is awesome. And the beginning episode fits right into this discussion

THIS is the ARK



THIS is REVELATION

[space otter]

the thing that bothers me most about religion.. any of them is that  you aren't supposed to think for yourself..

just follow......don't question what you are told ..just get in line.....like traffic at a red light

[Dyna]

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

I have contemplated the possibility that it is because we were not designed nor meant to live as we do.

Some of the ancient texts speak of gods (fallen angels) giving mankind instructions for making tools, weapons, makeup...the changes in knowledge led man to create harmful things to the planet and himself and eventually he will turn off the switch to death make new forms of life GMO's etc. that will destroy the creation. Is this a good thing? We don't know what is good for us.

The question of Satan, well we know it says "they" created them in Their likeness. The son who became Jesus and the son who was eventually called Satan were some of the first born of their kind. They as us were said to be made in the image of their creator. (I know if I were to create a life form virtual or otherwise some of myself would be included in the design.)

So these beings who were created first loved as Sons and were more like their creator being fleshless for instance, the betrayal of some would be a very big and painful one.

The tree of life in one text is said to have been brought to the garden and it was the only food needed by the angels and they lived forever...it was not meant for human food and may not even have had a good effect on humans.

Freewill you would definitely want to give your creations and could only hope for them to use it well.

I think what if, I with some others like me created a life form with a plan for their total existence, to care for them, give them a home, park like, a job of caring for the animals and earth, food without labor, birth with no pain and I loved them as children...then one of those who helped in created them with me throws out our plan (breeding with our created by taking human form even) gives them the means and knowledge to deal death and destruction but not the understanding they need to weld the power given so they could be powerful?

The extent of the written ancient texts is massive at a time when few could read and write and making ink and writing material was no easy task. Some tell stories I find hard to believe were simply imagined. I think we are using partial and bad info that will be cleared up with a revelation.
http://www.gnosis.org/library/mand.htm

The virtual solution is interesting as god is supposed to love creating and never stops doing so and yet has a record of everything that happenens to the smallest detail.

Personally I have the difficulty in having been born with a belief in god. I was born to a Family who never mentioned god or religion...I was raised in Gerlach Nv so you get the picture. There was no church and I never heard the words and yet I believed in a creator from my earliest memories age 3.

Between the age of 3-4 I one day looked around me outside and said aloud "I am in the wrong place"! I felt bewildered for a second or two and I recall the moment as though it were yesterday. When I turned 21 I dramatically recalled a previous life in which I died at 21.

I recall parts in between two lives and two previous lives. I feel as though things are happening and they will continue on a course that needs to be and I will not worry about the details.