Do we need police training reform?

[zorgon]

The public wants perfection from its street warriors, but isn't prepared to expect it of themselves in their interactions with the police, et al. This is the worst kind of hypocrisy

I don't want perfection  I just want to see the police police themselves.  When a cop goes BAD, they should be removed, fired or charged with a crime depending on the case.

As long as it is swept under the table, or they get relocated, or given paid leaves... trust will continue to be going downhill

In fairness it is starting to change like those two cops charged with murder in New Mexico for killing a homeless guy, his only offense was 'illegal camping' (sleeping near some rocks on BLM (public) land

You would think that police have a hard enough time as it is, that they would WANT to get rid of the bad apples to protect their own name

The other case  here in Henderson NV  where a team of Swat guys invaded a home... the only reason being it was hot outside and they wanted a cool place to watch the neighbor.  They hancuffed and arrested the home owner for refusing to allow them in to his home, they tossed the dog out into the yard with no water in the Vegas heat.  They justified it using a wartime act that allows them to commandere a home.

The owner did win a law suit of several million

You would think those millions would be better spent on paychecks or equipment

Treat others as you want to be treated yourself. Be a respectable citizen in your interaction with public officials. You'll find they will professionally reciprocate.

Alway have and always do the Yes sir, sorry sir bit and that has gotten me off many a speeding ticket in my wilder days   However a few years ago I was coming home from dropping my daughter at work.  I made a uturn in front ogf my house to park as I always do...  As I was half way in the turn this cop (yes I saw him behind me but he had no lights on)  flys up blocking me and starts yelling... turn off the car hands where I can see them...  WTF?  I have no warrants tickets NADA

So when he finds out I live at that house he becaomes more apologetic... I ask him why he stopped me  I had one tail light out.



Another case  The house behind us was a gang nest  One day the area was swarming with cop cars and helicopter.  My wife heard a noise in the garage and went to look... She got a light in her eyes ordered to go back inside.. There was a cop searching my garage  apparantly they were looking for a perp in the area  and the side door to the garage behind the gate was unlocked, so he decided it was okay to check it out.  We were home with guests  NO ONE knocked on the door to ask permission... there was another cop in the back yard...

The next day I get a knock at the door  two detective came by asking me about my METH LAB in the garage  WTF?  No it'a a mineral assay lab 

In the end I got an apology in writing and the captain disciplines the officer that was in the garage.. I could have pushed it... maybe should have as I can sure use the money

Thing is there are too many cases like this today...  and you never know if the one you run into is trigger happy and just had a fight with his wife before work

Used to be if you had a heart attack while driving, they helped get you to the hospital, same with having a baby...

Today you are morre likely to get tazzed or shot for failing to get out of the car, like te old guy with a cane that was complying but got shot to death because the cop thought his cane handle was a gun

Ant that teen aged kid in CA... killed because he had a garden hose that had a pistol grip.  neighbor called it in :He has a gun"  Cops never even gave him a chance to drop it

11 million dollar law suit  but their son is dead for no reason  (I would be hunting that neighbor the next day )

So yeah MOST of them are the good guys  no question..

But they need to weed out the bad apples themselves and make it happen in the PUBLIC forum

[ArMaP]

The idea I get from this side of the Atlantic ocean is that the police in the US is mostly living in fear, as it looks like they always act as if they were under attack. The way they protected themselves also gives me that idea, the idea that they mostly feel cornered and they to protect themselves from everyone else.

[Irene]

The idea I get from this side of the Atlantic ocean is that the police in the US is mostly living in fear, as it looks like they always act as if they were under attack. The way they protected themselves also gives me that idea, the idea that they mostly feel cornered and they to protect themselves from everyone else.

They are under attack, but it has nothing to do with fear. LEOs are being murdered in ambushes. People have openly called for their assassination.

There was a cop searching my garage  apparantly they were looking for a perp in the area  and the side door to the garage behind the gate was unlocked, so he decided it was okay to check it out.  We were home with guests  NO ONE knocked on the door to ask permission... there was another cop in the back yard...

Exigent circumstances, hot pursuit. No warrant necessary.

It would be nice if the media reported the good LEOs do as well, but that isn't sensationalist.

In '85 I took a call from an elderly woman who wanted a revolver removed from her home. Her companion of many years had committed suicide with it and she didn't want it anymore. I spent an hour talking to her about it. She was very lonely and heartbroken.

We had coffee and then I had to take a pressing call. I left her with a list of resources and wished her well. I didn't want to leave, but I had to.

I like to think that I left her in a better place than where I found her. This happens thousands of times a day across the country, but you never hear about it because it doesn't sell papers.

[petrus4]

Irene, I don't want perfection either.  More than anything else, what I don't want, is to see any more photos of lines of police in gas masks and black riot gear, holding truncheons, standing in front of unarmed people who are trying to obtain justice, from corporations or governments, over and over and over again, and preventing them from getting it.

Can you at least agree that this is a bad thing?  Can you not see how the above would itself be leading to the very ambushing and murder of police that you have mentioned in this thread?



That is what I don't want.  I don't want scenarios like the one that occurred during the Egyptian revolution, and what is happening right now at Standing Rock, where current or former military are themselves stepping in to engage the police, because they recognise that the way the police are treating civilians in these situations is wrong.

I'm not the enemy here.  I don't want to be.  One of your replies above, was "no comment."  Please try to recognise that a one sided, us-vs.-them mentality is not going to help anyone here, on either side.  It's only going to lead to more governmental injustice, and more environmental destruction by corporations, more civilian deaths by police, and more police deaths by civilians.  None of this is a good thing, for any of us.

You've mentioned in this thread, again, that there has been a recent spike in the civilian murder of police.  I'm asking you for some basic willingness to ask the question why that might be happening; and I'm also asking for that, not exclusively for the sake of civilians, but for the sake of police themselves.



The above is an excerpt from a recent episode of Doctor Who.  The Doctor is mediating a conflict between two different species, in which they are potentially about to wipe each other out, and in the end, the only thing he asks either of them to do, is break the cycle.

That is what I want, and it is all I want.  I want to figure out how to break the cycle, of which Standing Rock is only the latest iteration, and contrary to what you might think, I want to do it for the wellbeing of both sides.  We're not going to stop the violence until we recognise that people on both sides have valid needs and valid perspectives, and that a refusal to recognise the value of either, is only going to keep the whole thing going.



If police training was the wrong place for me to start looking for answers as to how to do that, then I apologise.  Please, be part of the process, and offer some suggestions as to where we should be looking instead; including areas in which you think civilians should modify their behaviour.  You've mentioned the media being a problem.  How do you think we can change what they are doing, which will lead to de-escalation here?

[Irene]

. . . what I don't want, is to see any more photos of lines of police in gas masks and black riot gear, holding truncheons, standing in front of unarmed people who are trying to obtain justice, from corporations or governments, over and over and over again, and preventing them from getting it.

The police don't really have a choice due to recent history in the US. Civilians have escalated the level of violence. The police are tasked with maintaining order and must be prepared for the worst-case scenario.

Would you deny them personal protection from assault? People are vicious to the police. They have the right to defend themselves from death and great bodily harm in the pursuit of their objective - maintaining control of the situation.

That is what I don't want. I don't want scenarios like the one that occurred during the Egyptian revolution, and what is happening right now at Standing Rock, where current or former military are themselves stepping in to engage the police, because they recognise that the way the police are treating civilians in these situations is wrong.

I'm not following the Standing Rock thing, so I have no real right to comment on it.

I'm not the enemy here. I don't want to be.  One of your replies above, was "no comment."  Please try to recognise that a one sided, us-vs.-them mentality is not going to help anyone here, on either side. It's only going to lead to more governmental injustice, and more environmental destruction by corporations, more civilian deaths by police, and more police deaths by civilians. None of this is a good thing, for any of us.

I posted "no comment" because I didn't feel I could contribute anything useful in response. Clearly, I disagreed with the statement to which I was responding.

You've mentioned in this thread, again, that there has been a recent spike in the civilian murder of police. I'm asking you for some basic willingness to ask the question why that might be happening; and I'm also asking for that, not exclusively for the sake of civilians, but for the sake of police themselves.

There are problems all the way around. We are talking about human beings who are emotional and violent.

Short of rewriting DNA I don't think we're going to solve the problem. We are genetically predisposed to savage behavior.

Watch a young child. They are unsocialized and, generally, pretty nasty little creatures. When adults don't practice their social skills everyone loses.

If police training was the wrong place for me to start looking for answers as to how to do that, then I apologise. Please, be part of the process, and offer some suggestions as to where we should be looking instead; including areas in which you think civilians should modify their behaviour. You've mentioned the media being a problem.  How do you think we can change what they are doing, which will lead to de-escalation here?

Civilians:

1. Cooperate with the police.

2. Stop verbally abusing them and deliberately getting in their faces in an attempt to provoke a negative response.

3. Be civil.

4. Identify yourself if asked. If you do so before you are asked you are way ahead of the game.

5. If you screwed up, admit it. We usually know the answer before we ask the question.

Police:

1. More emphasis on non-lethal forms of control and defense.

2. Ongoing training in interacting with the public in a less robotic way.

I've seen a film of the British police at work and I think US agencies could benefit from observing their techniques for interacting with difficult people. The biggest takeaway is that they disarm and deescalate using only carefully chosen language.

I used this technique myself as I'm fairly well-spoken due to being a bookworm.

3. Transparency in the disciplinary process is next. The public needs to know that their concerns are being addressed by the disciplinary system within the respective agency, and appropriate charges should be brought if the behavior meets statutory requirements.

4. Public officials need to stop showboating on high profile cases. Application of the criminal laws must be applied objectively and without prejudice. This is not what happened in Baltimore. A racist DA used the incident in question to stoke racial tension.


This is a start. I'm tired, so I'm going to post this and let it rest for the night unless something glaring arises.

[ArMaP]

They are under attack, but it has nothing to do with fear.

They do not overreact because they are afraid of being killed? That's what it looks like to me.

[Sgt.Rocknroll]

The proverbial horse is dead. Stop beating it. It's inhumane.
If the police are on the side that you are against, i.e. Protesters, then nothing the police do will satisfy you except to disappear,and allow the law to be broken because you think you have the right to protest and break the law. In this case I don't think training has anything to do with it.

[The Seeker]

Yes, there are good cops and bad cops, and the bad ones need to be replaced; a major issue is to remove and replace the ultra leftist media in this country and get rid of all their ultra left wing bull poop...

just look at all the bull poop they shoveled out about the Potus election and those retards were so far off the mark they were in the septic tank...

No one is above the law, including LEO, and anyone that thinks different is asking for a rough ride...



Seeker

[robomont]

the moment our fones got hacked by stingray,love went out the door and will not return,i lost most of my pothead gang,thus losing my pot connections.so now im lonely in the woods.my friends all bugged to colo.
so now i plan to devestate that which devestated me.
until cops realize not to enforce pot laws,im not standing down.
yes one man can fight and win against legions if his faith is right and true.
i am that man.
what part of spying on folks fones is legal?
and all cop cars have them.
my next exploit is crashing them all.i plan to ruin them.no mercy.as they showed us potheads no mercy.

the issue is short sightedness.a % of the population worships law of man and not law of human.to enforce idiocracy is idiocracy.mans law is idiocracy.
rise above mans law and see the beauty of human law.

[petrus4]

so now i plan to devestate that which devestated me.

I don't recommend that, robo.  If your friends have moved to Colorado, go with them if you can. 

what part of spying on folks fones is legal?

They don't care about what is legal.  They don't need to.  They can kill you and then a jury will reliably rule in their favour, and that's assuming the case makes it to trial.  Most people want the police to be able to do whatever they like, and will defend them regardless of what they do, because of the level of fear they have of the alternative.

I'd encourage you to read about what happened to Christopher Dorner, if you haven't already.  He was disgusted with the corruption within the LAPD, and decided to try and violently do something about it.  He killed four people and wounded three others.  The police set fire to the building they found him in, and burned him alive.

If it helps, a large part of the reason why I'm currently not in Nimbin, and still haven't decided whether or not to go back, is because police have charged every shop vendor of cannabis in the town, and have used association laws to imprison all of the street vendors.  Said street vendors exclusively solid cannabis, and were helping to keep methamphetamines and harder drugs like heroin out of the town.  Now that the old vendors are all in custody, the way has been opened for a new group to come in, who won't be from the town themselves, and who won't care about letting ice or the hard stuff in.

Said street vendors were not violent, and they weren't involved in any other crimes.  The shop vendors were complete and genuine pacifists; I knew them for three years.  As Rock will no doubt say in response to this, however, that doesn't matter.  The law is the only thing that matters, even if people die as a consequence.

You can't fight them.  If you try, the only thing that will happen is that you will end up dead or in jail.  You simply have to leave.  It may get to the point where there is nowhere else for cannabis users to run to, but unless more people start to give a damn, nothing is going to change; and even if more do, it may not matter.  The police have military ordnance now.

[rdunk]

Quote Irene: "................................The media is responsible for hyping isolated incidents and always depicting them in the worst light. I believe the media is largely responsible for much of the violence we see related to these cases. Their altruism is a lie.

As regards the apparent aggressiveness of the police, I challenge you to participate in a high speed chase, a foot chase, wrestle with one or more suspects, or be shot at and instantly turn off the rush of adrenaline that has helped you focus on survival. It ain't happenin'.

The public wants perfection from its street warriors, but isn't prepared to expect it of themselves in their interactions with the police, et al. This is the worst kind of hypocrisy.

Treat others as you want to be treated yourself. Be a respectable citizen in your interaction with public officials. You'll find they will professionally reciprocate.

Irene, IMO you are right on point!!!!!!! Every profession does get employees who have problems with executing their job responsibilities, and certainly a few/some in the police force do! But, if there is any reform needed, it is primarily with a broad segment of the populous of the country. Never has there been more ignorant and lawless goof-balls in this country!!! Lawlessness is absolutely no indicator of a need for police reform, but rather is a screaming notice to all that something is very wrong in our country with so many law breakers!!

[astr0144]

A lot to take in on reading all the comments, and trying to determine some solutions.

Being outside the USA I don't think its easy to comprehend what its really like in America.

Govt Corruption, Police, Guns and Drugs, being a huge concern...

Then listening to the Likes of Alex Jones who has said so often how the Corrupt Governments are involved in drugs and yet the police are seen to always cracking down on drugs....

If the Govt really are involved in it the way he described ....I don't know if most police who are seen to be fighting so much against them are aware of that...and if they were, would  they then take a different view on it...and what may they consider.

Because the way I see it is if the Govt are behind it... then that is one main part of the problem...and in the perfect World it would be them that needs overcoming..

but that would be a HUGE task to  deal with..

I am not sure myself what to make of people taking drugs..
I see too many variations on it......

It may be no worse than alcohol and certain drugs may do some people good...or help them...and It maybe ok as an adults choice...as long as it does not cause problems to other people.

but other drugs can destroy lives.  and that's where Policing is needed...

The very disturbing thing with the police in the USA, is they all carry guns and many cops can appear trigger happy & can kill you in an instant...and for the wrong reason...and ask questions later !

and when society seems to have become much more  out of control, violent & dangerous .... no doubt it must be hard for Police..and that can make them agree to become more and more armed and act differently than they may have used to.

I do agree however that when you see large groups dressed in armored like suits.. and see them attacking protesters for the wrong reasons... it makes those who see it want to oppose the Police...

I was watching a TV program earlier about the Mafia and how things were when Al Capone was on the scene in the 1920/1930s...and how he was able to buy Governments, Judges and Police off when Gangsters were rife... That must have been horrendous... I read somewhere he had an 200 IQ...if so...I am sure if he had took other directions in his life that he could have been a top leader in a honest Profession..(Provided he was given the opportunity and right guidance)

No doubt there has always been times thru history where similar issues have gone on...I am not sure what was the worse times..was it back in Capone's days or today ?

If I am led to believe all the things that Alex Jones and Donald trump have claimed about the Corruption today... it seems too much to bare and comprehend...

but some how life continues on...

To change things needs a hell of a lot of action and bravery by all who oppose corruption...

There maybe needs a huge plan...and for people to try to understand it.. that makes sense to the majority...

There must be a better way that what we have had , that's for sure...

I just hope that some groups can attempt to come up with the solution and start the actions needed to try to improve things..

Something that seemed to offer hope was what was said about the past New York Mayor "Rudy Giuliani "....who took on the Mafia and Won ...at least for that time period !  ...Was he a Good Guy as seems to be made out ? .......  or was it just deception...

If he was legit... he had the strength of conviction to take on a lot of corruption...This maybe an eg of what is still possible..

but it does seem very hard to maintain it...and corruption often seems too easy to fall back in place...and there are just so many sides to life where its so hard to monitor and keep in check in terms of trying to remain Honest...

In 1983, Giuliani was appointed U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York, which was technically a demotion but was sought by Giuliani because of his desire to personally litigate cases. It was in this position that he first gained national prominence by prosecuting numerous high-profile cases, resulting in the convictions of Wall Street figures Ivan Boesky and Michael Milken. He also focused on prosecuting drug dealers, organized crime, and corruption in government.[21] He amassed a record of 4,152 convictions and 25 reversals. As a federal prosecutor, Giuliani was credited with bringing the "perp walk", parading of suspects in front of the previously alerted media, into common use as a prosecutorial tool.[32] After Giuliani "patented the perp walk", the tool was used by increasing numbers of prosecutors nationwide.[33]

Mafia Commission trial[edit]
In the Mafia Commission Trial (February 25, 1985 – November 19, 1986), Giuliani indicted eleven organized crime figures, including the heads of New York's so-called "Five Families", under the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO) on charges including extortion, labor racketeering, and murder for hire. Time magazine called this "Case of Cases" possibly "the most significant assault on the infrastructure of organized crime since the high command of the Chicago Mafia was swept away in 1943", and quoted Giuliani's stated intention: "Our approach is to wipe out the five families."[38] Eight defendants were found guilty on all counts and subsequently sentenced on January 13, 1987 to hundreds of years of prison time.[39][40]
According to an FBI memo revealed about 20 years later, leaders of the five New York mob families voted in 1987 on whether to issue a contract for the death of U.S. attorney Rudolph Giuliani. Heads of the Lucchese, Bonanno, and Genovese families rejected the idea, though Gambino leader John Gotti encouraged assassination.[41]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_Giuliani

and just hope that the Evil side are unable to still maintain control..

God Bless the USA and all...

                      -------------------


Irene, I had not realised that you had worked in Law Enforcement and I am taken back that it was for 30 years...

It is no doubt hard to imagine the effects and stress that it has had on you , and how it will have changed you. It amazes me how people can handle certain situations..and endure them.

One wonders what they may have been like if they took other routes...

I am sure we all end up having  things that we never envisioned or that became hard to face and bear or that have been obstructions to what our plans may have hoped to had been...

We wonder what its all about and some may ask what if at all possible could have been a solution to have trying to have obtained a route that we desire and a plan to have obtained it..

but we all take varying routes...and  hope it will work out..

After 30 years working in various areas of law enforcement with various agencies

[The Seeker]

the moment our fones got hacked by stingray,love went out the door and will not return,i lost most of my pothead gang,thus losing my pot connections.so now im lonely in the woods.my friends all bugged to colo.
so now i plan to devestate that which devestated me.
until cops realize not to enforce pot laws,im not standing down.
yes one man can fight and win against legions if his faith is right and true.
i am that man.
what part of spying on folks fones is legal?
and all cop cars have them.
my next exploit is crashing them all.i plan to ruin them.no mercy.as they showed us potheads no mercy.

the issue is short sightedness.a % of the population worships law of man and not law of human.to enforce idiocracy is idiocracy.mans law is idiocracy.
rise above mans law and see the beauty of human law.

robo, that is about the most ludicrous statement I have ever heard; you are on a vendetta against the peace keepers because they did their job and your friends moved to a state where they can be legal instead of breaking the law?
You do realize your above statements can be construed as terroristic threats, right?

In case you haven't noticed, the laws of the land do apply to you, and no one died and left you in charge; instead of acting like a home made martyr why not move to colorado and grow and sell your own legally

[robomont]

nobody has authority over me, nobody. i dare you to prove me wrong. i can make any true statement of fact.
i swore an oath to uphold the constitution, i cant back down when its hot or cold or an army of chimps tries to twist my arm.
maybe some folks are more fickle when the heats on. im not that guy.
sometimes truth hurts.
this is my land. this is my families land, my roots go back to even before this land was a country and even to when new york was new amsterdam.
breaking the law for the excuse of terrorism is like screaming what about the children. a very weak argument at most.
when ones own governor betrays his people, he is a traitor.
when ones own president betrays his people, hes a traitor.
i welcome true authority, but cureently not a single politician can hold authority over me legally.
not a single cop in my state, county or city can hold authority over me, i proved in court, their corruption. so as of this moment in time. im the freest man in america. thats the bottom line.
there is one exception. this board and z, i submit my authority to it.
as far as terroristic threat, prove police dont violate my civil liberties and yours. i have every legal right to defend my self against corruption and so do yall. the difference being. i state what i believe to be obvious truth. and how to defend against said corruption.

[robomont]

as far as moving to colo, yall may not realize it but colos new homeless are majority texan. yep.
and im trying to show yall tptb plan. they plan to destroy colo. they are setting the potheads up.
i pointed this out last year and my predictions on the timeline may be off but the track is straight. the setting off of yellowstone is obvious. i even called for the big one in cali last week but it ended up being 4 small ones instead but my dates were right.
they plan to strip us of our wealth and kill most. your own gov has this planned. but yet folks want to support the murderers.
ive warned folks and intend to live. what yall do is up to yall.
i will stand my ground.