Afternoon Armap.
So what is your take on the infamous Clementine images?
(http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a572/paparumbo/3-068-horizontal-object_zpsc1771151.jpg)
Cos im curious.
Come on Elvis!
Everyone knows that the tiny Japanese guy inside the camera had his thumb over the lens ;D
Hey Star,
was that what Jim and phage came up with one evening in the bath together? lol,
I wouldnt be suprised. ;D
Quote from: Elvis Hendrix on November 26, 2013, 02:35:55 PM
Afternoon Armap.
So what is your take on the infamous Clementine images?
(http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a572/paparumbo/3-068-horizontal-object_zpsc1771151.jpg)
Cos im curious.
That (and the other images) are from the site that worked more or less like Google Earth, joining several images to make a mosaic of the area the user was asking for. The grey, fuzzy looking areas correspond to areas for which there was no image available at the time (or even now, I don't remember the details).
The real photos taken by Clementine were (and are) available in the PDS.
That problem was almost completely removed with the second version of the image viewer, I think today's version is version 3.
Quote from: ArMaP on November 26, 2013, 08:59:53 PM
That (and the other images) are from the site that worked more or less like Google Earth, joining several images to make a mosaic of the area the user was asking for. The grey, fuzzy looking areas correspond to areas for which there was no image available at the time (or even now, I don't remember the details).
The real photos taken by Clementine were (and are) available in the PDS.
That problem was almost completely removed with the second version of the image viewer, I think today's version is version 3.
Please reference just above for the image being discussed.
Re: the Clementine image - that tampering smudge is covering a very design specific object of some sort.
One can see that the black object is raised off the surface and one can see its bottom support on the right end.
An elongated shadow can be seen on the surface under the object.
One can also see the black left end of the object as it just extends slightly out of the smudge.
One can also see the a shadow on the surface, under the left end of the object.
Also note the spikey-toothed piece on or near the right end of the object, just out of the smudge. These spikes have sharp points, and we can see them clearly, even with the smudge.
One can also see something in/behind this smudge. as it rises slightly above the smudge.
Is there any wonder why the later versions of this pic deleted smudge and all??
As ArMaP said, "That problem was almost completely removed with the second version of the image viewer". ************the lack of truthfulness in some of what comes to us in the NASA photos is unbelievable!! This is not just a photo smudge(s). Too much object detail to rule out a specific object.
Quote from: rdunk on November 26, 2013, 10:12:32 PM
Is there any wonder why the later versions of this pic deleted smudge and all??
There is no later versions of that image, that image is taken from a viewer that works like Google Earth, using several photos to make a larger view, according to what the user selected.
That area is made up of dozens of Clementine photos.
QuoteAs ArMaP said, "That problem was almost completely removed with the second version of the image viewer".
What we can see on that image is the result of a software bug, it's not one photo. The second version corrected the bug (trying to join two images separated by a "black hole" where an image should be), but some "ghosting" was still visible around the edges (if I'm not mistaken).
QuoteThis is not just a photo smudge(s). Too much object detail to rule out a specific object.
That's right, it's not a photo smudge, as that is not a photo. :)
Unbelievability continues without specific evidence! Just like with posting anomalies, one just cannot say stuff, and be accepted s truth. Show us the photo proof, and the errors were made, how the errors were "changed", and who we can contact to verify the facts.
Off the Deuem cuff: All I can remember about this photo is that it is a photo of photos tapped to a round moon. As the photos came in they had to apply them the old way, Tape. There are actual photos of this in the NASA archives if you wish to dig them up. At that time they did not have the pretty equipment to stich them together. By hand they made a moon globe map.
Now, one can either belive that or think that thing is as big as LA. up to you.
In the end, the main question was did the photo get changed, "YES" reason is in question on this one. Hey, 3 versions, yea it changed, look into the why...And then believe either way you want.
Deuem
Quote from: rdunk on November 26, 2013, 11:55:11 PM
Unbelievability continues without specific evidence! Just like with posting anomalies, one just cannot say stuff, and be accepted s truth.
I thought you knew where the image came from and would know how things are today, but I guess I was wrong.
I was also wrong about the versions.
That image is from version 1.0 or 1.1 of the Clementine Lunar Image Browser. As that version is not online any more, it's not possible to show how it worked. That version was replaced with version 1.5, you can read here (http://web.archive.org/web/19990908013151/http://www.cmf.nrl.navy.mil/clementine/cli) an explanation of how it worked. There's also a list of people that worked in the project
The important in that explanation is the "This multi-resolution feature is implemented using a wavelet compression technology, known as MrSID, developed at Los Alamos National Laboratory as part of the Sunrise Project", as it was (probably, I was not involved in the project) this compression of the parts without images that resulted in those blurred areas.
The above is my opinion, based on my own work with digital images and as a programmer, but it's just my opinion.
The Image Browser is now in version 2.0.
QuoteShow us the photo proof
How can I show photo proof of something that does not exist any more? Or are you talking about something else? ???
Quoteand the errors were made
You already posted the errors, those blurred areas.
Quotehow the errors were "changed"
The errors were not changed, the errors in software processing the requests from the online users were corrected, resulting in a normal (with "holes" where there aren't any images) view.
Quoteand who we can contact to verify the facts.
I suppose the page I posted above has the relevant information.
More information here (http://web.archive.org/web/19990428142349/http://www.actgate.com/act/lunarbrowse.htm).
Also, as I said before (and as they say at the bottom of this page (http://web.archive.org/web/20090615073147/http://www.cmf.nrl.navy.mil/clementine/clib/clib_faq.html), the original images were always available in CD-ROM for those that would want to buy them. When I first found about this some 8 years ago the images were also available on the PDS, here (http://pds-imaging.jpl.nasa.gov/volumes/clementine.html).
At first there was only the Experiment Data Record Image Archive, some years latter they added the Full Resolution Clementine UVVIS Digital Image Model, you can ask zorgon about that. :)
Quote from: deuem on November 27, 2013, 01:11:17 AM
Off the Deuem cuff: All I can remember about this photo is that it is a photo of photos tapped to a round moon. As the photos came in they had to apply them the old way, Tape. There are actual photos of this in the NASA archives if you wish to dig them up. At that time they did not have the pretty equipment to stich them together. By hand they made a moon globe map.
Those were the Lunar Orbiter photos, not the Clementine photos.
Clementine was the first mission that used a digital camera.
Quote from: ArMaP on November 27, 2013, 01:26:50 AM
Those were the Lunar Orbiter photos, not the Clementine photos.
Clementine was the first mission that used a digital camera.
Ok, off a mission or so, it is a glitch in the Deuem mental system. The matrix is off balance today....
This is going way off the Mars topic. I would think any touch up or remakes of photos here should be Mars related.. hummmm.
Ok ArMaP, regarding this what you call a "blurred area"............what do you call the part of this blurred area that is not blurred?? What do you call that very visible piece, on the right end, with the 5 or 6 visible sharp points - ie it is not blurred, but rather is very clear??
No, there is an object behind and in the smudge, and reworking the photo to "eliminate the smudge" does not make for an acceptable answer for what happened to the object.
ArMaP, don't worry about this, as there is at present it seems no acceptable correct answer. The truth of these such matters will be out before long, even if it has to come from China.
Quote from: rdunk on November 27, 2013, 03:05:07 AM
Ok ArMaP, regarding this what you call a "blurred area"............what do you call the part of this blurred area that is not blurred?? What do you call that very visible piece, on the right end, with the 5 or 6 visible sharp points - ie it is not blurred, but rather is very clear??
That's part of the crater that was visible in the photo to the right of the blurred area, that original Clementine Image Browser used either the wrong or too much compression, you can see that whole image is full of blurred areas and sharp edges.
QuoteNo, there is an object behind and in the smudge, and reworking the photo to "eliminate the smudge" does not make for an acceptable answer for what happened to the object.
Nobody said anything about reworking the photo, as that's not a photo, it's a mosaic made of several photos.
QuoteArMaP, don't worry about this, as there is at present it seems no acceptable correct answer. The truth of these such matters will be out before long, even if it has to come from China.
I'm not worried. :)
PS: I also think this "detour" should be moved to a different thread.
Fine - I am through with this anyway - a waste of time with no "real data" presented that gives any reason to believe that Skipper's report is not accurate.
Said I was through on this but, why has this Moon anomaly post been moved to the Mars Anomalies Forum Board, rather than to the Moon Anomalies?? :))
Quote from: rdunk on November 27, 2013, 03:57:23 PM
Fine - I am through with this anyway - a waste of time with no "real data" presented that gives any reason to believe that Skipper's report is not accurate.
If you think the original photos are real data then I guess there's nothing you will accept that goes against your preconceived ideas.
Quote from: rdunk on November 28, 2013, 03:39:26 AM
Said I was through on this but, why has this Moon anomaly post been moved to the Mars Anomalies Forum Board, rather than to the Moon Anomalies?? :))
That's because the splitting didn't move the new thread to a different forum.
More of the infamous images that are not on the "updated version" of the clementine browser.
Sheesh.. I wonder why not ::)
(http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a572/paparumbo/4-067-3towers-left-closer_zpsb846c5a9.jpg)
(http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a572/paparumbo/4-068-blocky-object_zps36f84b65.jpg)
(http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a572/paparumbo/3-067-3towers-standard_zps74fa6e0e.jpg)
(http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a572/paparumbo/2-067-2towers-closer_zpsf61cc0ed.jpg)
(http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a572/paparumbo/1-068-big-tower-_zpsc0d75e9f.jpg)
(http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a572/paparumbo/1-067-2towers-standard_zps475e9a31.jpg)
The official NASA explanation to me would work
well, down one of these.
(http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww63/amymarie914/pointing.gif)
(http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a572/paparumbo/3d-spinning-toilet-smiley-emoticon_zps6c2c6daa.gif)
Aye Thank yoo.
Yes, I agree. those photos are 100% blurred, Ok, now what? now we have a bunch of blured photos from NASA for what ever the reason is. It is as plain as the nose on your face. Now what? Un-Blur them? As a team, what do we do next. Argure for the next 10 pages if they are blured rocks, spaceships, towers tape, drunk processor spilling coffee?
Unless someone can find a copy of this print before it got blured and prove it, we will never resolve this issue. So, Maybe the moon is blured cheese.
What do you want to do with these
1) toss them,
2) unblur them
3) hang NASA
4) where are we going, what rabbit hole
5) draw circles around the blurs
What is the plan guys? We need a better plan than my blur is bigger than yours!
Or, unless someone of you can unblurr them or the so called object found on another photo then what do we do?
Deuem
Good point Deuem :)
Maybe we could do a pixel-by-pixel examination to see how the blur was formed?
...and some size reference would be handy, like the distance between the blue arrows?
Strange.
When G**gle Sky does it, they just put a big black square on the 'anomaly'--no messing about trying to blur stuff ::)
BTW, i choose 'option 3'......... 8)
I dont know kids.
I have no answers, and i dont mean to give anyone a headache.
I was just being facetious really, cos im a naughty old hecktor.
I just thought id put them all in one place.
Elvis.
And Happy Thanksgiving you colonials you ;)
This is what a poster named funkster4 came up with on spooks.
and this is what he said about the technique used.
"...which was obtained using a brand new image-processing methodology called Polynomial Texture Mapping (first presented in 2001 in a scientific paper by an Hewlett Packard team headed by Tom Malzbender: Google it).
I joined this forum just a few days ago, because I have realized that this methodoly is actually unknown, even of the self-proclaimed experts in things optical, the kind you find on forums like this one, while it is actually very propably a paradigm change in the way we can now analyze films and pictures of alledged unknown flying craft.
PTM is considered by top scientists now as a major breakthrough in image processing: it was put to use notably to solve the Anthykythera Mechanism mystery (a riddle which had kept archeologists mystified for more than half a century), by bringing out previously undecipherable inscriptions.
It is so powerful as en enhancement technique that it can even bring out original data hidden below posteriously added data. Yeah, that's right..."
(http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a572/paparumbo/ClementineStructurendeg1_zps7e358a4e.jpg)
Then he goes on to say,
"HP actually offers a free dowload of a PTM sofware, but I was not able to make it work (I am not computer friendly). "
Elvis
apparently this was the original that he tinkered with.
(http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a572/paparumbo/ClementineStructure_zpse08ffc92.jpg)
Zorgon is about to start swinging his sword and make some heads role >:(
#1 CLEMENTINE WAS (and IS) a US NAVY project NASA only ran mission control
#2 Clementine took the original photos in FULL COLOR, slightly enhanced into both the infra red spectrum and the UV spectrum givng what ArMaP and other skeptics refer to as 'false color" Well screw that 'false color' crap because the camera had the ability to take images in full REAL color (as opposed to TRUE color which ArMaP and I argued over for a lot of years till we finally agreed that the sky on Mars is BLUE :P
#3 The Clementine images are available at the NRL (Naval Reserach Lab) and the USGS Map A Planet site.. When they full color images were first released to the public, WE were given the scoop by a two week lead. This was in Dec 2006 and we released it in a press release at ATS
Revealed for the First Time Color Images of the Moon from Clementine Satellite
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread237436/pg1
THIS is the image of Reiner Gamma that Skipper worked with... really deliberately made worse
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/04images/Moon7/Womb/Womb006.jpg)
This is the image of Reiner Gamma from the Version 1.5 NAVY browser
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/04images/Moon7/Clementine/Reiner001.gif)
This is an image of Reiner Gamma taken by Mike Deegan (our big moon photo)
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/04images/Moon7/Womb/Womb003_dark.png)
This is my copy of the same area. The web image is 10% Click on the image for full resolution in full color. The image in full resolution is 10 megs
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/04images/Moon7/Womb/Womb001a.jpg) (http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/04images/Moon7/Womb/Womb001.png)
Ok got the zip file from HP and opened it. It might be a MSDOS program. I can't run it yet either.
You did fine by posting the photos Elvis, I just don't want to go throught the, my blur, your rock again for 10 pages. We need to get past that and onto a better method. I will try that program again latter. I am now seeing squares.
I looked at the square with Deuem and to me it appears that an object or paper or tape was placed over the negative when processing the photo or making a swcond negative. I say this because several patterns stop instantly when hitting the quuare. If the square was in the original negative it should have bended in with the area. it does not.
Deuem
The original image release came from Mark Robinson via Jack Arneson. Mark at that time was with North Western Uninversity. He was transferring to Arizona State University where the huge 128+ gigabyte .cub files from Clementine in color are currently stored and Mark is team leader of the LROC team
Patricia from USGS when we wrote her explained the colors were SLIGHTLY enhanced by UV/IR and are listed as UV/VIS (VIS =Visible light ie what we see)
She also thanked us because our ATS 'leak' generated so much traffic for the USGS Map-A-Planet site that it was an instant success
If you look on the Living Moon Website, some of our firat pages have ALL the details on the browser versions, the images, the anomalies and the color image release as well as the documents on the satellite and the cameras...
Clementine was also the one that discovered water on the moon that NASA later took credit for :P
U.S. Department of Defense
Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Public Affairs)
News Transcript
Presenter: Dr. Dwight Duston, Assistant Deputy for Technology, Ballistic Missile Defense Organization; December 04, 1996 1:45 PM EST
Tuesday, December 3, 1996 - 1:45 p.m.
Subject: Discovery of Ice on the Moon
Dr. Dwight Duston, Assistant Deputy for Technology, Ballistic Missile Defense Organization;
Dr. Paul Spudis, Lunar and Planetary Institute, Rice University;
Dr. Stewart Nozette, Lawrence Livermore Laboratory;
Col. Pedro Rustan, USAF, Director, Small Satellite Program, National Reconnaissance Office;
Christopher L. Lichtenberg, Head, RF Active System Section, Naval Research Laboratory; and
Col. Richard Bridges, USA, director, Defense Information, OASD(PA).
Q: What's the presumptive volume of it then, and how did you discern that?
A: As I mentioned, what we can tell from looking at the radar return is roughly the area that is covered by this. Assuming it reflects ice like ice on Mercury -- making that assumption. That's been well looked at. Then in order to see this back scatter effect, this roadside reflector effect; it's estimated that we have to see some number of wavelengths of our radar into the ice. In reviewing the paper, several of the reviewers posited we probably need to see somewhere between 50 and 100 wavelengths. So our wavelength is about six inches. So at the thickest case, it's roughly 50 feet.
Q: That translates to what in volume?
A: We were very conservative in the press release, but if you take basically 100 square kilometers by roughly 50 feet, you get a volume of something like a quarter of a cubic mile, I think it's on that order. It's a considerable amount, but it's not a huge glacier or anything like that.
Q: Can you compare that with something you know?
A: It's a lake. A small lake.
Q: Where is Clementine now?
A: The spacecraft, as you know, from the name Clementine, is only supposed to be here for a short period of time and be lost and gone forever, so it was intended for a very short period of time after this lunar mission, did a rendezvous with the earth, and shortly after that was shifted by the moon's gravity and continued a flight which will bring it back near the earth about nine years from now. So it's an 11 year total flight around the sun. So basically it's moving like a little planet around the sun, and it will bring it back close to us in about nine years... It's two years since it left us so it will be another nine years before it's back. But it's not useful right now. The mission is finished.
Q: But unlike it's namesake, it's not lost and gone forever. It will be back?
A: It will be back,
http://www.defense.gov/Transcripts/Transcript.aspx?TranscriptID=731
Quote from: deuem on November 28, 2013, 12:24:35 PM
Ok got the zip file from HP and opened it. It might be a MSDOS program. I can't run it yet either.
You did fine by posting the photos Elvis, I just don't want to go throught the, my blur, your rock again for 10 pages. We need to get past that and onto a better method. I will try that program again latter. I am now seeing squares.
Deuem
While I'll be cooking turkey ::)
:D
Z youve obviously done tons of work on this stuff already which is hugely appreciated.
Elvis.
Quote from: Sgt.Rocknroll on November 28, 2013, 12:28:30 PM
While I'll be cooking turkey ::)
:D
Trade you for 3 big fat chickens and a bag of rice
http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/nasa-s-rules-for-talking-to-china
Let me toss this into the mix. So, NASA arrogantly won't talk to the Chinese - and they are sending out probes to the moon. And the Chinese are really getting p*ssed about US domination of everything.
Gosh, I wonder what could happen next?
8Man you could look at it in another light and one I like to entertain ;)
IF we here on this forum and many other forums which inturn = discussion amongst people that see something is a bit a amiss with presented information. Then it's a tad bit more than likely that somewhere in every Nation on this planet there are people or what have you that don't want this little secret out in regards to our solar system for unknown reasons to me. I can speculate why but have no concrete proof.
Official Documented Research say's we can Live on The Moon and Mar's. I nearly fall asleep with boredom searching all the wonderful official documents reagrding a Habitat on the Moon. :-[
I speculate that India sends a probe to Mars (soon) or China sends a rover to the moon (scheduled for next month) and they photograph stuff and then....
tell the US/NASA to screw themselves. Both nations have no cultural problem with Aliens. And US hegemony is going the way of the Dinosaurs.
I'm also puzzled by the blurs. If these photos are a composite of individual shots and the blurred areas are where data is lacking, why is the shape of the blurs so irregular? I would think we would see a straight line or the remains of circles stuck together or something other than the mess we observe.
By this reckoning, I could see a square as a photographic artifact but not an amorphous blur.
I agree eighthman,
Also the entire surface around the shapes has blurring . Like there could be stuff all over the terrain?
Quote from: deuem on November 28, 2013, 10:33:52 AM
Yes, I agree. those photos are 100% blurred, Ok, now what? now we have a bunch of blured photos from NASA for what ever the reason is.
Those are not photos.
QuoteWhat do you want to do with these
1) toss them,
2) unblur them
3) hang NASA
4) where are we going, what rabbit hole
5) draw circles around the blurs
What is the plan guys? We need a better plan than my blur is bigger than yours!
6) Look at the originals instead of the screen captures of the first version of a software made to show a mosaic made with a (then) new compression system.
Quote from: deuem on November 28, 2013, 12:24:35 PM
I looked at the square with Deuem and to me it appears that an object or paper or tape was placed over the negative when processing the photo or making a swcond negative.
No negatives for those photos, Clementine was the first mission with a digital camera.
I'm no expert but I have years of experience with bad digital video or compression (in which part of the image data is missing). This doesn't look like that.
Quote from: ArMaP on November 28, 2013, 09:31:10 PM
No negatives for those photos, Clementine was the first mission with a digital camera.
Yes a digital camera that took 1.8 million images of the moon.
Of which 170 thousand where available to the public.
Clementine me thinks has kept an awful lot up her shiny sleeves.
Quote from: Eighthman on November 28, 2013, 05:33:09 PM
I speculate that India sends a probe to Mars (soon) or China sends a rover to the moon (scheduled for next month) and they photograph stuff and then....
China already did that Chang-E 1 They released ONE PHOTO that was found within 6 hours to be a copy taken from Clementine...
Chang-E 2 also took pictures where are they? A few are available on the Chinese space program website, where are the THOUSANDS of hi res pictures?
http://www.cnsa.gov.cn/n615709/n772514/n772543/
India sent Chandrayaan-1 where are the pictures? I saw a few on India's space program website. where are the THOUSANDS of hi res pictures?
http://www.isro.org/chandrayaan/htmls/home.htm
Japan sent "KAGUYA" (SELENE) they took HD video o the moon... and pictures. The video looks like a clay model and shadows don't change as it reaches the terminator... where are the THOUSANDS of hi res pictures?
http://www.jaxa.jp/projects/sat/selene/index_e.html
We followed these missions LIVE back at ATS
Quotetell the US/NASA to screw themselves. Both nations have no cultural problem with Aliens. And US hegemony is going the way of the Dinosaurs.
Sorry not gonna happen...
NASA has an office in Japan
http://oiir.hq.nasa.gov/japan/index.html
Go read here on John's page
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/menu.html#NASA
These titles;
NASA Dominates World Space Programs - List of Countries NASA has an agreement with
ESA
ESA and NASA extend ties with major new cross-support agreement
Canada
NASA_Canadian_Space_Agency_Agreement
China
NASA Administrator Visits China
Japan
NASA_Japan_Agreement
NASA_Japan_Agreement 1990
NASA in Japan NASA Japan Representative Field Office
India
NASA And India Sign Agreement For Future Cooperation
NASA To Work With India on Moon Mission
U.S.- India Space Cooperation
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/04images/NASA/159216main_mg_yuan_full.jpg)
Get the picture yet?
::)
Quote from: Eighthman on November 28, 2013, 09:33:21 PM
I'm no expert but I have years of experience with bad digital video or compression (in which part of the image data is missing). This doesn't look like that.
Have you seen other examples of the use of a high compression ratio done with this compression method?
Example 1 (http://www.clear.rice.edu/elec301/Projects00/wavelet_image_comp/results.html)
Example 2 (http://scien.stanford.edu/pages/labsite/2000/psych221/projects/00/shuoyen/)
After those missions I actually stopped wasting my time keeping track of it. They all claimed they took hundreds of thousands of images yet only a hand full are available to the public...
And no one else but Exuberant 1 and Mike Singh did any followup hunting to catalog them for us. Mike Singh came here briefly and vanished...Exuberant 1 and Russo vanished... Internos gave up... Luna Cognita vanished....
I would gladly revive it if anyone cared to help track down these images.
I have people from the military and space command offering to help when I revamp the website but I need someone here at the house to help with the layout work
The Clementine images... we need to call the NAVY and ask them where we can get the whole lot of them :D but WHO here has storage capacity for 1.8 MILLION images in hi res? And WHO here has time to even go through the 170 thousand they did release?
The old Lunar Orbiter images. We had/have direct access to the LORP team that found those missing tapes of Lunar Orbiter data that we were leaked back at ATS. That lead also linked me to a direct email for astronaut John Phillips
Haven't followed up on that yet no time and little interest here
Lunar Orbiter cameras...
On a typical Lunar Orbiter mission, the photographic system provided high-resolution pictures of 4,000 square miles of the Moon's surface with enough clarity to show objects the size of a card table. At the same time, medium-resolution photographs covering 20,000 square miles could be made with overlap for stereo viewing and analysis of surface topography.
Photos were processed automatically by the Orbiter's photographic system as the spacecraft orbited the Moon's dark side. This operation was performed by a KODAK BITMAT diffusion transfer process using 'dry' chemistry. A high-intensity light beam then optically scanned the photographic prints, and the images were transmitted to receiving stations on Earth.
The 1600 pictures captured in total by the five Lunar Orbiters using the ITT photographic system enabled photogrammetrists at NASA and the U.S. Government's Defense Mapping Agency to create accurate maps of the Moon's surface. From these photos, maps, and other lunar data, NASA identified the Sea of Tranquillity as the final landing site for the Apollo 11 mission in 1969.
About the Lunar Orbiter missions
Launched in 1966 and 1967, all five missions Lunar Orbiter were successful. The missions collectively photographed 99% of the Moon's surface with a resolution of 60 m ground resolution or better. The first three missions, dedicated to imaging 20 potential Apollo landing sites, were flown at near equatorial orbits as close as 22 miles above the lunar surface. The fourth and fifth missions were devoted to broader scientific objectives, and were flown in high altitude polar orbits.
ITT The defense contractor that made the cameras
http://web.archive.org/web/20050210151436/http://ssd.itt.com/heritage/orbiter.shtml
I have a clearer version below and it still has the Ship in it..Ship you say!! I was more interested in the blurred out thingy magingys.
(http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a572/paparumbo/1-067-2towers-standard_zps475e9a31.jpg)
They still forgot to blur out the Ship !
(http://i41.tinypic.com/23r7tjb.gif)
Here it is
(http://i44.tinypic.com/24v5hc9.png)
Quote from: Elvis Hendrix on November 28, 2013, 09:50:40 PM
Yes a digital camera that took 1.8 million images of the moon.
In fact it had 3 cameras, the UV/VIS camera (that zorgons wrongly thinks took true colour photos :P ), the HIRES camera and the NIR camera.
QuoteOf which 170 thousand where available to the public.
Really? Why do you say that? ???
Quote from: ArMaP on November 28, 2013, 09:31:10 PM
No negatives for those photos, Clementine was the first mission with a digital camera.
So many missions so little time, I thought John said he was handed a huge negitive for the moon shot. Besides to get a huge print then, would you not need a negative or slide made? Digital printing at least to us is rather new. Computer technology was just starting to come out. If the camera was a drum scanner it would have problems also. They take a strip at a time, not the entire photo. Re-aligning the strips is hard work and give plenty of time to blur things out. I doubt if they did them all. It would take years with many people and tons of equipment. There is most likely the good and bad sets. At 60m a pixel you can hide anything small and just nudge a few pixwls to get the rest.
And like Z said, where are all the Hi-Res photos from China. They are busy re-working them for display? They said we would get them live. Jokes on us.
Quote from: zorgon on November 28, 2013, 10:17:03 PM
Japan sent "KAGUYA" (SELENE) they took HD video o the moon... and pictures. The video looks like a clay model and shadows don't change as it reaches the terminator... where are the THOUSANDS of hi res pictures?
The video was more of a publicity stunt from NHK, the owner of the images.
I haven't counted the original photos, but they sure look like thousands. :)
1) NASA is being downright rude to Chinese space scientists, as I posted. In addition, the US and its allies are presently flying aircraft over an area that China has forbidden (today) Given both of these factors, as well as the deepening rift over the American 'abuse of its privileges' (Xinhua editorial calling on the world to de-Americanize) I wonder if any sub rosa cooperation on such photos will last.
2) I do see faint outlines of clear tapered segments in the 'photo' that are not blurry. However, I don't understand why these photographic mosaic sections are tapered at all - as well as clearly tapers or 'cones' of different sizes. I also wonder why a completely missing section gets filled up with blur by (apparently) being recompressed (?) - otherwise it would just be empty. Perhaps that was part of online transmission?
I also find it somewhat coincidental that these blurs often appear to be in front of distinct objects.
I assume in this controversy that we are also discounting reports of deliberate airbrushing of NASA photos as claimed by individuals who claimed to work for them in the past.
3) if all these foreign craft fail to post their HD pictures, somethings wrong........
Quote from: deuem on November 29, 2013, 01:06:45 AM
So many missions so little time, I thought John said he was handed a huge negitive for the moon shot.
I think that was a Lunar Orbiter photo, not a Clementine photo.
Quote from: Eighthman on November 29, 2013, 01:15:06 AM
However, I don't understand why these photographic mosaic sections are tapered at all - as well as clearly tapers or 'cones' of different sizes.
Clementine, like all other mapping probes, was on a non-circular near polar orbit, so the photos taken over the Moon's equator are not the same size of the photos taken over the poles.
QuoteI also wonder why a completely missing section gets filled up with blur by (apparently) being recompressed (?) - otherwise it would just be empty. Perhaps that was part of online transmission?
The transmission was good, that's why the original images don't have problems like that. As for the blurring, from my understanding of how it worked, the whole mosaic was compressed as one big image, so the "holes" in the image, to the compression algorithm, were part of the image.
QuoteI assume in this controversy that we are also discounting reports of deliberate airbrushing of NASA photos as claimed by individuals who claimed to work for them in the past.
Yes, as the reports I have seen are always about someone else doing the airbrushing.
Quote3) if all these foreign craft fail to post their HD pictures, somethings wrong........
Only the Indian and Chinese images are missing, although images from Chandrayaan-1's Moon Mineralogy Mapper are available.
Ok, even if NASA came right out on the 6 O'clock news and said, "YES we air brushed things out on the Moon" We are still in the same game. Without the release of the prior un-brushed prints we only have the problems to work with. So a new method needs to be found here.
If they are stupid and saved a layered version then the original data is there but under it. But who would do that. Once the photo has been flattened and re-saved there is no other data. WYSIWUG. We are stuck with either seeing through the blur. Matching patterns going in and out of the area or making things up in our own minds.
I am not even sure 100% that when they mentioned air-brush if they ment the digital one or the real one. If you blew this photo up, touched up the print with paint then re-mastered it, that would work better for us. The original pixels are there, just under real paint. If they were digital air-brushed, the pixels are gone forever.
And any screen shot will also flatten out the photo even if the original has many layers and not flat. It is a picture of a picture then.
Deuem
I suspect the earlier photos were airbrushed with paint - any analog image. This may or may not have included tampering with the negative.
Once images could be converted to and initially gathered in digital, the tampering became photoshop tool airbrush, in concept if not specifically photoshop.
I've tried to re-read these pages over again and I am assuming that the full, complete mosaic images are not available - only images that have been assembled with pieces missing. In addition, not all the blurred areas are tapered (although many are). So, we are left to wonder where the pieces went? Or where they are?
Just trying to get it precise in my understanding.
I think i remember seeing a show on maybe nasa .they used triangle shapes to block out stuff.if so that would explain the blur.they are using a clear plastic sheeting.they can make three cuts to cover anything.plus they have a pile of them already cut up to blur things.for faster productivity.plus its a known symbol to the ones in the know.if its a triangle then you know its not a glitch.its a spook symbol.
A quick blur trial. Find the RED slug
(http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa458/deuem/SnapShot115510.jpg) (http://s1198.photobucket.com/user/deuem/media/SnapShot115510.jpg.html)
These images were doctored to hide massive machines and structures. I don't care really how they did it. Image masking has been going on for a long time and it will continued to be done for whatever reasons. National security, EVERY nation does it. Some people are so gullible.
Just stating the obvious!
Hey Z, I've told you I have plenty of room. ::)
Sarge, I know, I agree with you. I have found every type of blur they have. Real and made up.
My bottom line question still is. "What do we do about it" Occupy NASA? Area 51? Without the originals or new originals that have not been worked what does everyone do? Maybe in 1.8 million pictures they missed one? But I doubt it. Maybe the Chinese will release New ones that are real. I doubt it. it would change every country in the world. Knowing if there was something going on up there, even better if it was not ours. Would "Rocknroll" the world off its foundation. Would they want to do that? I don't think so. Every religion and every economy would halt and need to be re-invented. It would crash everything. We are so well trained now it would confuse the world to stop.
I think that if there is anything there they have had 50 years to get rid of it, place it under camo or bring it inside. The Chinese might find nothing. It is easy to fool a camera. They have done that since WW1. It is harder to fool termal or radar. Maybe we are looking at the wrong things? What is it the hardest thing to fool and look there. The military does that.. Rock, what are we missing here?
Deuem
Quote from: deuem on November 29, 2013, 01:06:45 AM
So many missions so little time, I thought John said he was handed a huge negitive for the moon shot.
A 16x20 negative made from the first transmission of signals from Lunar Orbiter of Copernicus Crater A contact printing of that negative is available here
http://landoflegendslv.com/00shoppes/04Pegasus/Pegasus_Main.html
(http://landoflegendslv.com/00shoppes/04Pegasus/04images/promo_items/Copernicus_001.png)
When NASA took these images they made a mosaic on the floor at langley that looked like THIS
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/41pegasus/04images/Space/Nasa_Photos.jpg)
QuoteBesides to get a huge print then, would you not need a negative or slide made? Digital printing at least to us is rather new. Computer technology was just starting to come out. If the camera was a drum scanner it would have problems also. They take a strip at a time, not the entire photo. Re-aligning the strips is hard work and give plenty of time to blur things out. I doubt if they did them all. It would take years with many people and tons of equipment. There is most likely the good and bad sets. At 60m a pixel you can hide anything small and just nudge a few pixwls to get the rest.
Camera system for Lunar Orbiter
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/04images/Moon3/Camera01.gif)
Information here
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/02files/Moon_Images_Info.html
Quote from: Amaterasu on November 29, 2013, 01:57:45 AM
I suspect the earlier photos were airbrushed with paint - any analog image. This may or may not have included tampering with the negative.
You 'suspect?" LOL Zorgon is shaking his head wondering if anyone even reads Pegasus material
::)
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/45jack_files/02archives/Apollo_Reality_files/08ba0120.jpe)
The picture above right shows the sphere after modeling work. Pretty impressive eh? Notice how background is in the dark. Remove that bloke from the picture and you could EASILY pass this photo as being taken by the Apollo command module circling the Moon.
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/45jack_files/02archives/Apollo_Reality_files/08df88b0.jpe)
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/45jack_files/02archives/Apollo_Reality_files/08ff88b0.jpe)
The two pictures above show how LRC made "plaster paris" copies of the Moon craters on the placards. They are checking that the craters are exactly to scale and layout, as craters shown on the lunar photographs previously taken by high magnification telescope. (Editors Note: Lunar Orbiter Photos 1965-1967) Notice the sphere in left hand picture after modeling work. This sphere had a light inside it which was translucent on the outside, hence the appearance. The large placards with Moon craters was also backlit. Turn off all your lighting, and you end up with the picture shown below
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/45jack_files/02archives/Apollo_Reality_files/091f48e0.jpe)
Add a spaceship window to film through and voila...
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/45jack_files/02archives/Apollo_Reality_files/098027c0.jpe)
APOLLO REALITY
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/45jack_files/02archives/Apollo_Reality.html
QuoteOnce images could be converted to and initially gathered in digital, the tampering became photoshop tool airbrush, in concept if not specifically photoshop.
No they chose to make a full scale plaster of paris mockup and film it :D On the right is the blank moon sphere, on the left the surface fly over. Camera for that one is on a track, while the ball rotates Both are back lit to give that nice lunar glow :D
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/45jack_files/02archives/Apollo_Reality_files/08a9f120.jpe)
A little lighting effect to give that eerie Apollo color...
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/45jack_files/02archives/Apollo_Reality_files/099307c0.jpe)
Then put it all on a small computer screen and let the astronauts land it :D
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/45jack_files/02archives/Apollo_Reality_files/09a1bae0.jpe)
]
Z im glad you brought all that over from the living moon. it gives us lots more to discuss. thanks.
Z, There's another Living Moon Web Site ? My net says I am on it now. I have to log in dirrect or forget it. I knew about these mock ups and all the Disney connections a long time ago. And Disney even re-designed the space suits to make them look better on camera. I think they got paid 1 million dollars for the Moon globe.
Thanks for the update on the big moon photo. It was from another mission.
I guess that doing searches here does not include the front page stuff. I have never run into it yet. Besides, I thought all the good stuff was in here....We're here! Thats what it says outside!
Maybe you should double them up as threads so we can find them easy. I doubt if anyone except yourself is leaving the forum to do that. I admit, I am not. I think I briefed it once on the way in and got tossed of the net and let it go...If we have to leave the forum to find it, I don't think that will happen often! You see internal links all the time, Why no external links? Easy, we are all here, past the gate....That's the surface and we live in the core. It's bright out there.......
Deuem
Quote from: zorgon on November 29, 2013, 07:55:07 AM
You 'suspect?" LOL Zorgon is shaking his head wondering if anyone even reads Pegasus material
::)
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/45jack_files/02archives/Apollo_Reality_files/08ba0120.jpe)
The picture above right shows the sphere after modeling work. Pretty impressive eh? Notice how background is in the dark. Remove that bloke from the picture and you could EASILY pass this photo as being taken by the Apollo command module circling the Moon.
It couldn't, it does not have the same detail as the photos.
Quote from: deuem on November 29, 2013, 03:20:22 AM
Sarge, I know, I agree with you. I have found every type of blur they have. Real and made up.
My bottom line question still is. "What do we do about it" Occupy NASA? Area 51? Without the originals or new originals that have not been worked what does everyone do? Maybe in 1.8 million pictures they missed one? But I doubt it. Maybe the Chinese will release New ones that are real. I doubt it. it would change every country in the world. Knowing if there was something going on up there, even better if it was not ours. Would "Rocknroll" the world off its foundation. Would they want to do that? I don't think so. Every religion and every economy would halt and need to be re-invented. It would crash everything. We are so well trained now it would confuse the world to stop.
I think that if there is anything there they have had 50 years to get rid of it, place it under camo or bring it inside. The Chinese might find nothing. It is easy to fool a camera. They have done that since WW1. It is harder to fool termal or radar. Maybe we are looking at the wrong things? What is it the hardest thing to fool and look there. The military does that.. Rock, what are we missing here?
Deuem
What do we do about it? lol...well nothing of course....they'll release them when they're damn good and ready...I believe at some point in time, TPTB, will release what they think you should see for they're purposes....
What are they suppose to say then? 'Hey guys we've been lying to you all these years and spending cajillions of your money to hide what WE think you DON't need to see, but now through the kindness of our hearts and an overwhelming sense of shame for lying to you, we're coming clean with what's on the Moon"?....
The Chinese, Japanese, Indians will and ARE doing the same thing. And believe me, the US has already informed them EXACTLY whats up there...this is all just a publicity stunt for the masses....
I read recently that Nasa and a bunch of students plan to grow veggies on the moon.....lol
Also the Japanese want a giant solar panel around the moon to generate energy because nuclear reactors are really, really dangerous...lol...(but will have to restart a few reactors till we get this built built and in place)....
What do WE do?...just keep looking to satisfy our own curiosity and have fun while doing it....
Peace 8)
Rock...
"What do WE do?...just keep looking to satisfy our own curiosity and have fun while doing it...."
Yup That sounds about right to me .
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m623/Sgt_Rocknroll/hardd1_zpsb60613a8.png) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/Sgt_Rocknroll/media/hardd1_zpsb60613a8.png.html)
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m623/Sgt_Rocknroll/hardd-2_zps094948ef.png) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/Sgt_Rocknroll/media/hardd-2_zps094948ef.png.html)
Well, I'm set to receive Clementine Photos, if anyone has some....plenty of room... ;D
This is from JP Skipper from his moonanomaly site. Ive been trying to find 1.5 clementine images and every link takes you to the 2.0 cos 1.5 is no more, but here is a couple to peruse. Il keep poking around.
Elvis
DOCUMENTATION (added 2/15/2010)
The military's Clementine Lunar Browser (CLIB) version 1.5 has been "retired" and the new "improved" version 2.0 data that replaces it now conveniently (for secrecy) does not contain the discovery evidence presented here in this report and it appears that those former discovery sites have been altered in the 2.0 data to sanitize them away. Therefore, to facilitate verification and prove that the anomalous discoveries were in fact in the older 1.5 science data and part of it for 16 years, the links immediately below access the unaltered version 1.5 originals downloaded by this researcher in 2004 and now parked on this website.
http://marsanomalyresearch.com/evidence-reports/2004/069/CLIB-minus35lat-208long-page.htm
http://marsanomalyresearch.com/evidence-reports/2004/069/CLIB-35lat-98long-page.htm
http://marsanomalyresearch.com/evidence-reports/2004/069/CLIB-48lat-157long-page.htm
(http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a572/paparumbo/moon-free-animated-image_zpsdab71129.gif)
More from the same.
http://marsanomalyresearch.com/evidence-reports/2004/068/CLIB-68lat-346long-page.htm
http://marsanomalyresearch.com/evidence-reports/2004/068/CLIB-68lat-168long-page.htm
http://marsanomalyresearch.com/evidence-reports/2004/068/CLIB-minus70lat-137long-page.htm
http://marsanomalyresearch.com/evidence-reports/2004/068/CLIB-minus72lat-108long-page.htm
http://marsanomalyresearch.com/evidence-reports/2004/067/CLIB-64lat-265long-page.htm
http://marsanomalyresearch.com/evidence-reports/2004/067/CLIB-70lat-240long-page.htm
(http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a572/paparumbo/moon-free-animated-image_zpsdab71129.gif)
Done
Quote from: zorgon on November 29, 2013, 07:55:07 AM
You 'suspect?" LOL Zorgon is shaking his head wondering if anyone even reads Pegasus material
...
I did not mention My probabilities, z. I give it a good 98.5% probability, and only "suspect" based on the 1.5% probability that there's nothing to see.
Quote from: Elvis Hendrix on November 29, 2013, 05:04:09 PM
Ive been trying to find 1.5 clementine images and every link takes you to the 2.0 cos 1.5 is no more, but here is a couple to peruse. Il keep poking around.
Elvis
I don't think you will find another CLIB version 1.5, unless someone made a copy of the software and of the mosaics used.
QuoteTherefore, to facilitate verification and prove that the anomalous discoveries were in fact in the older 1.5 science data and part of it for 16 years, the links immediately below access the unaltered version 1.5 originals downloaded by this researcher in 2004 and now parked on this website.
The above quote from Skipper's site is not correct in one thing: that was not "science data", that was presentation data based on archived science data.
As long as people do not understand that they will be fooled by anyone posting pseudo-anomalies like the ones in those images from the CLIB.
As long as people do not understand that they will be fooled by anyone posting pseudo-anomalies like the ones in those images from the CLIB
And ArMaP, what is your "proof" of these anomalies being "pseudo", as you suggest?? Just because they are not now in the latest "photos" certainly isn't proof that they weren't there to begin with~~~~~does it??
Quote from: rdunk on November 29, 2013, 09:13:40 PM
And ArMaP, what is your "proof" of these anomalies being "pseudo", as you suggest??
I have said it several times, those anomalies do not exist in the photos, only on the Image Browser.
QuoteJust because they are not now in the latest "photos" certainly isn't proof that they weren't there to begin with~~~~~does it??
They were never in the real photos, only on the image browser.
PS: did you see the anomalies in the image browser or only on images from it?
Quote from: ArMaP on November 29, 2013, 09:48:11 PM
I have said it several times, those anomalies do not exist in the photos, only on the Image Browser.
Stop tilting at windmills :D
Yawn... Ho hum ::)
Question....
There are literally HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of great images available for the moon and Mars
Yet all that ever happens around here lately is a rehash of the same old anomalies using other peoples piss poor images :P
Mike Singh and Exuberant1 spent hours looking for NEW anomalies in many images. Found a LOT they did but those really good ones rarely get any attention :D
So why is no one organizing a committee to systematically search the 160,000 plus available high res Lunar Orbiter photos, or the Mars Global Reconnaisance Orbiter images? Or the skads of great Rover inmages?
Like THIS one for example?
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/04images/Mars4/Spirit_Sol_1220_Coin/Cilp_001.png)
Or how about the Erupting Oil Wells?
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/04images/Mars4/Geysers/Geyser_Art_02.jpg)
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/04images/Mars4/Geysers/M0701830.jpg)
Quote from: zorgon on November 29, 2013, 10:28:12 PM
Stop tilting at windmills :D
I have this problem, when people ask something, I answer. :)
There's only two ways of stopping me from answering: physically stop me or ask me not to answer their posts. While the first is hard to do (unless they are some kind of hackers or mods/admins), the second is easy, they just have to ask, although it makes things a little strange when they post things that need an answer that I can give (because I know it) but that I cannot give (because I promise not to answer their posts).
Quote from: zorgon on November 29, 2013, 10:36:04 PM
Question....
There are literally HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of great images available for the moon and Mars
Yet all that ever happens around here lately is a rehash of the same old anomalies using other peoples piss poor images :P
Probably because it's easier, the work is already done for those, they just have to keep repeating what other people said years ago. :)
QuoteLike THIS one for example?
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/04images/Mars4/Spirit_Sol_1220_Coin/Cilp_001.png)
That's a good one, that has been discussed some times, with no real explanation for how something shaped like that would appear there. :)
PS: I see we are back on Mars. ;)
I'm puzzled by the "oil wells" as to how an eruption can appear discretely on much of the photo without a big black mess surrounding it on the lighter ground cover.
Somehow no matter what the answer, there's always someone who thinks they are right and you are wrong. They go to great lengths to expound on they're knowledge and when you respectfully disagree, you're made to feel like your and idiot and must bow to their superior knowledge. So I choose to state my reasons and if you agree, fine. If you disagree, fine. Then if I choose not to hear from your silly azz, the better.
Peace 8)
Rock
Quote from: Eighthman on November 30, 2013, 12:27:50 AM
I'm puzzled by the "oil wells" as to how an eruption can appear discretely on much of the photo without a big black mess surrounding it on the lighter ground cover.
That's one of the reasons I think those "oil wells" are not like oil wells.
I wish I knew what planet/moon we were on? The oil field photo to me are plumes. I did process it, the clear one in the center and it looks like it has heat. In that photo they all look like they are on a hill and the entire hill is saturated with another color.
The ground is leaking something. Maybe a gas of some nature. The Black portion is just going along for the ride and not the reason. If this was a geyser it could start and stop. Like Yellowstone. So I will call this one the "Black geyser field' Another few million years and maybe a volcano will show here.
(http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa458/deuem/SnapShot110108.jpg) (http://s1198.photobucket.com/user/deuem/media/SnapShot110108.jpg.html)
The process reminds me of the candle I did. Deuem
Quote from: deuem on November 30, 2013, 01:17:14 AM
The process reminds me of the candle I did.
That's was the first thing that I thought when I saw your post. What image did you use?
I grabbed Zs photo, see red circle for the one I did...
(http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa458/deuem/SnapShot112309.jpg) (http://s1198.photobucket.com/user/deuem/media/SnapShot112309.jpg.html)
Candle, my posterior, dude. That blow-up takes me back to the '60's. Psychedelic Ares, man.
So, we need the geysers to be something that evaporates or turns lighter rather forming a pool of dark oil around the eruption base.
I'm guessing the "Martian Spiders" are just more of these geysers?
Quote from: Eighthman on November 30, 2013, 02:40:01 AM
Candle, my posterior, dude. That blow-up takes me back to the '60's. Psychedelic Ares, man.
So, we need the geysers to be something that evaporates or turns lighter rather forming a pool of dark oil around the eruption base.
I'm guessing the "Martian Spiders" are just more of these geysers?
Guess you never saw the candle picture we're talking about. lol
I went looking for an example of a black geyser on Earth and found this one and only photo. Also in this photo there is little debre on the ground around it. I guess that washes away on Earth. The only info I have on this photo is: 21_pejantan_black_geyser western end Madura Forest. Found it in an images search for Black Geysers. Which also brings up Zs oil fields.
(http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa458/deuem/21_pejantan_black_geyserwesternendMaduraForest.jpg) (http://s1198.photobucket.com/user/deuem/media/21_pejantan_black_geyserwesternendMaduraForest.jpg.html)
It processes very similar, but is weighed down by gravity. It is also hot in temp. If you took away 90% of the atmosphere it would be 10 times higher and more plume at the top. The main thing I see is that there are no lines like a gush of oil or water would give me. Just Hot gas expanding rapidly. What ever gas it is is most likely bringing up some loose soil that is being evaporated for the most. Only the heavy elements are making it to the ground. That's in both photos, Earth and ?? You can see around the base of the Earth Geyser there is a very file perimeter circle of a different color. This would be the fall out pattern. On the Space photo there is also a fall out pattern which is very dark. No rain, no erosion of the particles. It just stays there.
(http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa458/deuem/Blkdt.jpg) (http://s1198.photobucket.com/user/deuem/media/Blkdt.jpg.html)
By the way would some one please note where this is? Is it a Clentine Photo or did we go off track again?
Deuem
Looks to me like sulphur dioxide, which would be a hot, dark brown / yellow gas.
It would show ip much like these photo's, and certainly on the moon would be 5 or 6 times higher.
I think we are back on Mars at the moment ??? we seem to flit around a lot, metaphorically speaking ;)
Gas from volcanic activity, or smoke from underground kitchens?
Maybe they just chose a new Pope?
;)
Quote from: Eighthman on November 30, 2013, 12:27:50 AM
I'm puzzled by the "oil wells" as to how an eruption can appear discretely on much of the photo without a big black mess surrounding it on the lighter ground cover.
Because they are not oil wells but black sand geysers :D The CO2 ice warms from the bottom up so the gas pressure levitates the ice... then as holes melt in the ice the gas pressure blows these black sand geysers :D
According to NASA :P
Quote from: Sgt.Rocknroll on November 30, 2013, 12:31:05 AM
Somehow no matter what the answer, there's always someone who thinks they are right and you are wrong.
Well my point was to spend more time looking for good anomalies in pictures no one else has touched yet :D So far I have found three images that ArMaP is stumped on :D 2 on the moon this 'coin' on Mars
We have enough manpower and enough good eyes that we should be on the forefront of finding new ones rather than rehashing old Skipper ones :D
And yeah I slipped back to Mars for a second because I had those really cool images. :D We can move them.
Sad thing is all the greats are slowly disappearing and I don't know if they just got bored looking or something else happened.. The only one that ever wrote and said goodbye was Russo and he didn't give a reason
I'll start looking again in a few weeks... finally getting caught up in the house and will start on rewamping the forum and website over the next few months... Have some ideas :D
I don't know Z, What made them so great in your book if they could never figure it out. What, they posted a lot of blured photos? My wife can do that. She is an expert at blured photos...Or the other greats that took an inch and made it their mile to grab onto the UFO money train when it was running. Funny, I don't consider someone who stumbled on a blurred photo and then attacked NASA with out any proof that they faked it.
Show me the Money Old timers. Get out of retirement, toss the walkers and prove it with todays programs. A big blur is not proof. It is a big blur. Period. OK, NASA blured the photos. Now what! Did any of the greats change NASA or did they just hide more. This is why they all quit. They ran up against the blurred wall and fell down. If we can't get over it, under it or around it we will do the same.
We need new blood in the field, students of photos who can write programs to dicect things, give us a better picture and so on.
Deuem
Quote from: zorgon on November 30, 2013, 11:23:24 AM
Because they are not oil wells but black sand geysers :D The CO2 ice warms from the bottom up so the gas pressure levitates the ice... then as holes melt in the ice the gas pressure blows these black sand geysers :D
According to NASA :P
I for one do like that idea, it comes the closest to what I presented before. A gas plume with fine particles dropping. I wrote that before you posted the NASA answer, so I did not know. I also wrote that that whole hill is active and seems wet, Did NASA say anything about the hill?
Deuem
I'm thinking that a black sand geyser should create a black sand hill. Lots of them.
So what's the verdict, Clementine or Mars?....geyser's or blurred photos? Oldtimers verus Newtimers? What the hey?
Rock...
Quote from: deuem on November 30, 2013, 12:22:09 PM
I also wrote that that whole hill is active and seems wet, Did NASA say anything about the hill?
I don't think that'a a hill, as those "geysers" exist only near the poles (or just the south pole, the more active of the two).
And yes, that photo is from Mars. :)
Quote from: Eighthman on November 30, 2013, 01:38:23 PM
I'm thinking that a black sand geyser should create a black sand hill. Lots of them.
I agree, specially if we are talking about something that, supposedly, happens every year.
I think this is one of those cases where the scientists prefer to point to something as the explanation instead of saying that they don't have any idea of what that thing may be. :)
Deuem, What Z is referring to is those such as Mike Singh that constantly searched and found new anomalies to analyze, instead of constantly re-hashing old material that has reached a dead-end and turning into a constant pissing match over them...
Zorgon, in case you missed it, Russo actually made a post on Comet Ison...
seeker
There are anomalies aplenty on Mars, and probably on the Moon, that are not blurred nor smudged, and are yet to be found. And Deuem I agree with you in part. Really blurred images due to over magnification/pixelation are a waste of time to post. "Partially" smudged images such as we have been looking at here can present a very interesting chapter to NASA's "killing of anomalies", and do deserve our attention
And just for the record, I have never posted an anomaly that I didn't find in my own research, here nor anywhere else.
And........we probably should knowingly orient our thinking relative to anomalous items - what is our objective? Are we simply trying to build our collection of off-world anomalies we each have found?? I think "not at all"! We are striving to establish a foundation of proof for off-world intelligent design, performed at the hands of whomever, and openly inform the world of such! Our anomalies are at the core of our ability to make that happen. And I believe that finding such anomalies has been done, and is being done, in spite of the generally negative skeptical influence directed at such.
It does seem that the venue(s) for getting the public/world informed are a bit ineffective - simply posting to the Living Moon Forum does not get the word out for anomalous/intelligent design finds, nor for advanced technology determinations. Z, you probably have a plan for making such happen, but some of us may not be as aware of that as we might should be.
PS - I do think it worthwhile to post the finds of others, such as Elvis did here. I certainly learned some things as a result of this post, as probably did others - such is all a part of getting the world informed!! :))
Quote from: the seeker on November 30, 2013, 02:04:07 PM
Deuem, What Z is referring to is those such as Mike Singh that constantly searched and found new anomalies to analyze, instead of constantly re-hashing old material that has reached a dead-end and turning into a constant pissing match over them...
snip
seeker
Seeker, I played anomaly tag with one of the best, Willese, he is a member here. I think he has posted more anomalies than anyone on the net. Hundreds of pages. It has a tendency to burn one out, scouting though thousands of NASA images to find the quirks. He burnt out several times because no one paid attention, except a few. the same few. Since he was honest about them it brought him no fame, no fortune, nothing but headaches and tons of work.
I researched a hundred of photos one time just to back up one single anomaly and what it was. Lets see, we found blurs, scratches, film parts, over exposure, under exposure, bugs, bug eggs, larva, tape. finger prints, fakes, UFOs, strange clouds, orbs, critters, military craft, space junk, cgi, lost prints, re-worked prints a week later, calls from NASA asking to stop [ck with will on that one] missiles, comets, dust, water drops, reflections, multi light sources and tons more I forget to list. This went on for a very long time. Will, could make 2 or 3 Greer movies.
Lets see, we did all the NASA & world manned shots, the labs in space, the moon, the sun and some of Mars. So as a research group, what are we after? to prove it is all fake, to agree with NASA, to prove there is life out there and being held from us. Kinda, what is our goal here? We all take a goal. Let the best one win?
Sarge, I think Mars is the one to go after, from the Earth to the Moon has been done to death. If we get new photos from the Chinese or Indians that are real and very hi-res then the moon might be worth a second look.
On the black geysers I think it is black particles more like a fine powder rather than sand. Send in a rover. Mars is a large planet, it will take years. A PRC floating rover than can go more than a few hundred meters would be nice. Drop a few hundred rover drone balloons all over the planet.
Deuem
Quote from: rdunk on November 30, 2013, 03:29:46 PM
There are anomalies aplenty on Mars, and probably on the Moon, that are not blurred nor smudged, and are yet to be found.
I agree, and that's why I think the more people we have looking at the
real photos the better.
Quote"Partially" smudged images such as we have been looking at here can present a very interesting chapter to NASA's "killing of anomalies", and do deserve our attention
I agree partially with that. :)
Yes, they deserve our attention, but I see very little investigation regarding those images, I see mostly blind acceptance of what other people have said.
QuoteAnd just for the record, I have never posted an anomaly that I didn't find in my own research, here nor anywhere else.
I know, that's what I like in your work. :)
QuoteWe are striving to establish a foundation of proof for off-world intelligent design, performed at the hands of whomever, and openly inform the world of such!
And that's what I don't like in your work, as I think that we shouldn't approach this (or any) investigation looking for the confirmation or denial of specific ideas/theories, we should still be in the data gathering stage, so we could get as most consistent data as possible.
QuoteOur anomalies are at the core of our ability to make that happen. And I believe that finding such anomalies has been done, and is being done, in spite of the generally negative skeptical influence directed at such.
Sceptical influence shouldn't be negative or positive, it should just point that there may be other explanations. We all should be sceptical of our own conclusions.
(If you see me having a negative influence in any case, just tell me about it, but please try to be specific about what I am doing wrong, just saying that I don't see it doesn't help)
QuoteIt does seem that the venue(s) for getting the public/world informed are a bit ineffective - simply posting to the Living Moon Forum does not get the word out for anomalous/intelligent design finds, nor for advanced technology determinations.
I think it's too early for that, even if we find clear signs of something that shouldn't be there (whatever the "there" may be), as it will be mixed with the other reports of people that accept any thing they don't understand as a sign of intelligent life.
We need something more, but I don't really know what could make people (and mostly the media) change their minds.
I'm beginning to think the effort is totally a waste of time. In the beginning (I like that), there were photos with strange areas that couldn't be outright explained and chalked up to bad resolution photos, the angle of the sun, and humma, gumma,goo...
The early photos where there were obvious anomalies that TPTB, didn't want you to see, were 'doctored' to hide these anomalies. At that time no one thought that every Tom, Dick & Harry would have a private powerful computer to analyze these photos, hence the 'Hunt for the Red Anomaly'.
Now they are on to us, those that believe that something 'else' is going on, we who look and seach, and they are taking great pains to either not release the really good stuff or hide what they can hide. And they've become very good at the latter. Every now and again they make a mistake and release something that shouldn't have been, i.e. the wooden timber on Mars..OOPS!!!
This is what I believe....
There are structures on the moon, minning operations and beings living there.
There is a Secret Space Program and a Naval Operational Fleet....
Mars has been inhabited for a very long time and not just by Humans...
Stargates ARE real...
I will continue to look for the abnormal, anomalous on the Moon,,maybe Mars....
I will continue to high light what I think I see..
I will continue to download as many photos and documents I can find on the above....
to what end?
To satisfy my curiosity....(I'm not out to convince anyone anymore, you either believe or not)
I don't know what else to say, except from the first part of this post...That I really, really don't think its a waste of time...
I always want to know more......
Peace 8)
Rock...
Quote from: deuem on November 30, 2013, 03:32:20 PM
Lets see, we did all the NASA & world manned shots, the labs in space, the moon, the sun and some of Mars. So as a research group, what are we after? to prove it is all fake, to agree with NASA, to prove there is life out there and being held from us. Kinda, what is our goal here? We all take a goal. Let the best one win?
I don't know about other people's goal, my goal is to get the most real data I can, so anyone can use it to try to understand what is going on.
Quote from: Sgt.Rocknroll on November 29, 2013, 03:19:11 PM
Well, I'm set to receive Clementine Photos, if anyone has some....plenty of room... ;D
You can get them from here (http://pds-imaging.jpl.nasa.gov/volumes/clementine.html), the original images are in the first block, under the "Mission to the Moon: Experiment Data Record Image Archive" header.
All missions archived in the Planetary Data System follow the same organisation, in which the EDR images are the images as sent by the spacecraft.
The other sections show processed images (I think they are in IMG format), with, for example, composite colour images made from the photos for the individual wavelengths.
The EDR images occupy 88 CD-ROMs (I have them in 12 DVDs), so they do not take up much space in today's computers.
PS: all the images in the Clementine EDR archive can be opened by NASAView, a free download from the PDS, here (http://starbeam.jpl.nasa.gov/tools/release/license_nasaview_sol.shtml), although they ask for a name and email address.
As for how many photos were published, I have (ignoring the star tracker cameras) 1,893,940, distributed like this:
600582 from the HIRES camera;
304347 from the LWIR camera;
388661 from the NIR camera;
600350 from the UVVIS camera.
Quote from: Sgt.Rocknroll on November 30, 2013, 04:07:00 PM
I always want to know more......
And that's the best thing we can do. :)
Quote from: ArMaP on November 30, 2013, 05:42:54 PM
As for how many photos were published, I have (ignoring the star tracker cameras) 1,893,940, distributed like this:
600582 from the HIRES camera;
If you spent 2 minutes on each one that would take you 24 hours a day 2.2 years to look at them all.
I can see this for map makng but to look at each one. Ouch!
Quote
Mars has been inhabited for a very long time and not just by Humans
I for myself have no solid answer on this , maybe WAS by them and should be by us. Would like to get some better proof if possible. If we spend time on Mars I think we should look into the areas that still have a magnetic field. We are told it is scattered all over the planet and no longer uniform. ArMaP, do you know if the MSL is in one of these fields?
need to get that mapped out better to see where the areas are in relation to photos.
Deuem
Quote from: deuem on November 30, 2013, 06:15:52 PM
If you spent 2 minutes on each one that would take you 24 hours a day 2.2 years to look at them all.
I can see this for map makng but to look at each one. Ouch!
The images are very small, something like (I'm not sure) 255 x 384, that's why they needed so many.
QuoteWe are told it is scattered all over the planet and no longer uniform. ArMaP, do you know if the MSL is in one of these fields?
I think MSL is in that black circle south of Elysium Mons.
(click for full size)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img209/7049/1fk2.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img809/2219/0nbe.jpg)
Evening gents. I still think there are plenty miles in the orbiter scans.
I know they've been done to death but I think there may still be more to dig at. My obvious favorite is LO5-125-H2A. Which we've all had a go at but I had the tiff up at work today, and it's still amazing to look at.
I don't care if it's old hat to some, the vast majority of punters out there wouldn't know what the hell you were talking about, if you mentioned the tower that mike Singh brought to "our" attention. And as to "piss poor" images, we'll guess what,there all piss poor, but there still as valid today as they were the day day we looked in disbelief and said wow.
So thank you for your consideration chaps. Your a great bunch and I'm proud to be part of this select group.
Elvis.
Quote from: Sgt.Rocknroll on November 30, 2013, 04:07:00 PM
This is what I believe....
There are structures on the moon, minning operations and beings living there.
There is a Secret Space Program and a Naval Operational Fleet....
Mars has been inhabited for a very long time and not just by Humans...
Stargates ARE real...
I will continue to look for the abnormal, anomalous on the Moon,,maybe Mars....
I will continue to high light what I think I see..
I will continue to download as many photos and documents I can find on the above....
to what end?
To satisfy my curiosity....(I'm not out to convince anyone anymore, you either believe or not)
I don't know what else to say, except from the first part of this post...That I really, really don't think its a waste of time...
I always want to know more......
Peace 8)
Rock...
Applause and gold for you, beaudreaux...
We are on the same page...
seeker
Quote from: Elvis Hendrix on November 30, 2013, 09:42:47 PM
Evening gents. I still think there are plenty miles in the orbiter scans.
I know they've been done to death but I think there may still be more to dig at. My obvious favorite is LO5-125-H2A. Which we've all had a go at but I had the tiff up at work today, and it's still amazing to look at.
Elvis.
I totally agree & I still have it loaded in Autocad & still drawing!
@Seeker,,, thanks!
ArMaP, that's the one. There are 13 sub-divisions of color, I see you placed the MSL in a -1 light blue area. I think all missions should be placed and see it they have an alterative motive for landing sites.
I also wold like to say that the 90/10 rule is on all of the photos. All of us, including me, take the risk of making things up 90% vs Cleaning things up 10% with most of the photos we have. It is very easy to get taken away with the moment. It does not stop us, it just makes it harder.
We/I am working towards sliding that 90% towards the 10% end by researching ways to clean photos. Do clean enlargements. Find patterns in other types of evidence. Things they would miss or just never bother changing. The, look over here while I do this trick.
Hey they lied about hubble not being able to shot the moon. Why would they not lie about everything. The moon is most likely mapped down to 1 pixel=1cm or less. We need those prints....We live in a world were we have better photos of Area 51 than the moon...So which means more to them? Get those photos and we have a new game afoot.
Deuem
Quote from: the seeker on November 30, 2013, 02:04:07 PM
Zorgon, in case you missed it, Russo actually made a post on Comet Ison...
Just saw that :D So he is ...
ALIVE
Quote from: Sgt.Rocknroll on November 30, 2013, 04:07:00 PM
This is what I believe....
There are structures on the moon, minning operations and beings living there.
There is a Secret Space Program and a Naval Operational Fleet....
Mars has been inhabited for a very long time and not just by Humans...
Stargates ARE real...
You are correct on all accounts :D More than you know and more than I can say right now
QuoteI will continue to look for the abnormal, anomalous on the Moon,,maybe Mars....
I will continue to high light what I think I see..
I will continue to download as many photos and documents I can find on the above....
Awesome me too Can I point you at some to look at? ArMaP did one for us... I was looking for moving rocks in an area near Tsiolkowsky. Jack had requested LRO to go have a look for us.
ArMaP found so many moving rocks that he gave up plotting them all :D
Quoteto what end?
a) because it's fun
b) let's call SETI remind them of their Lunar Archaeology program and what ASU suggested
c and MOST IMPORTANT to find some more that ArMaP cannot explain away :D
See? That is why we keep him around :D If we find ones that stump him, ...
WE HAVE A WINNERQuoteI don't know what else to say, except from the first part of this post...That I really, really don't think its a waste of time...
I always want to know more......
Well I have a job for you that requires Cosmic Clearance but suited to your cad skills :D
Interested?
QuoteZ: Well I have a job for you that requires Cosmic Clearance but suited to your cad skills (http://www.thelivingmoon.com/forum/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif)
Ok, Big Bait in the water. MIB knocking at your door? If you guys are really looking at something that is real, then why are we following bread crumbs. Afraid your world will turn upside down?
So now we have TPTB and TPTI "the power that is".. Are we all wasting our time Z? Come on spill it. When I hear John speak and then show stuff, they
don't match. It is as if he is not talking about the same photo. Here's what I know and this is the garbage I can show you. The good stuff is off limits.
Quote
Well I have a job for you that requires Cosmic Clearance but suited to your cad skills :D
Interested?
I HAVE been waiting for you very patiently to send me more stuff. ::)
I'm getting REAL bored down here. 8)
Quote from: deuem on December 01, 2013, 02:02:07 AM
ArMaP, that's the one. There are 13 sub-divisions of color, I see you placed the MSL in a -1 light blue area. I think all missions should be placed and see it they have an alterative motive for landing sites.
They are 11 sub-divisions, 5 positive, 5 negative and a neutral. I will look for the other landing sites and will add them to that image. :)
QuoteHey they lied about hubble not being able to shot the moon. Why would they not lie about everything.
Yep, once a liar always a liar, that's one of the first things I learned, it was in the book for my first year at school, many years ago. I never forgot about that.
QuoteThe moon is most likely mapped down to 1 pixel=1cm or less.
I doubt it, it would be technically difficult to do. We can have those resolutions in aerial photos, from orbit it's a different thing. Also, I don't see the need for such high resolutions, and it would produce a very large amount of data.[/quote]
Here is the map with all of the 8 confirmed landings. I made it into an animated GIF to make it easier to see those coloured circles in the coloured areas. :)
(click for full size)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img69/1638/3wd.gif)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img40/788/gf0a.gif)
And the legend, to identify the landers/rovers.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img856/2039/eed.gif)
That's interesting. If I read it right the Mars 3 landed 30+, then Viking 1 3+ then the rest avoided the + areas and kept from o to -1. They must transmit a better cleaner signal from there. But for life would not the positive areas be needed.
If that is true then we need to look for the sat shots in the 30+ areas and see how they differ from the 30- areas. If there are any differences at all.
ArMaP, is there a larger map like this one. A very detailed one which we could pull off coorinates. If you find any other types of maps, please at least screen grab them.
Deuem
Quote from: deuem on December 01, 2013, 03:01:08 PM
That's interesting. If I read it right the Mars 3 landed 30+, then Viking 1 3+ then the rest avoided the + areas and kept from o to -1. They must transmit a better cleaner signal from there. But for life would not the positive areas be needed.
Mars 3 made a successful landing but stopped communicating after some seconds.
QuoteArMaP, is there a larger map like this one. A very detailed one which we could pull off coorinates. If you find any other types of maps, please at least screen grab them.
This was the biggest image I could find, I have to look to see if the same information is available in a different format that can be mapped at a higher resolution.
QuoteMars 3 made a successful landing but stopped communicating after some seconds.
Ok, what's good for life is death for rovers. At least the transmissions. I thought you would find a pattern here. That's one in the Ok Bucket and a reason why. Good job ArMaP. A golden cookie for you.
Deuem
It is a pleasure to follow threads like this, even if i have nothing to add :P
Except, maybe hurtling through a strong mag field at those speeds will induce a high voltage in the wiring, & that probably killed the CMOS chips..........
Magnetic shielding is NOT an option, unless you can afford to wrap the whole thing in silicon steel, by which time it would be 3 times as heavy & also inoperable ::)
Quote from: Elvis Hendrix on November 30, 2013, 09:42:47 PM
My obvious favorite is LO5-125-H2A. Which we've all had a go at but I had the tiff up at work today, and it's still amazing to look at.
I found a 11800 x 8750 pixels version (in IMG format) here (http://pdsimage.wr.usgs.gov/archive/lo5-l-80mm_flc_610mm_flc-4-cdr-v1.0/LO5_0001/constructed_frames/frame_125/primary/).
If you are interested you can download a PNG version from here (http://www.4shared.com/download/gPdleZdZ/5125_high_res_2.png).
Warning: the above link points to the full size, 57.5 MB image.
Looking at the Mars Crustal Magnetism Map ArMaP posted made me wonder what it is here on Earth. This is the best map I could find that resembles the Mars Map. I think the factors shown are off by 10x between the 2 but zero is still zero.
(http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa458/deuem/EarthLith_color_labels_N5_GMT.jpg) (http://s1198.photobucket.com/user/deuem/media/EarthLith_color_labels_N5_GMT.jpg.html)
It seems we have a lot in common. Most of the planet is near the zero factor or slightly negative with lots of spots that go either way. Find your area on the Map. I am green ArMaP is white and it looks like Sarge is right in the middle of the hottest area RED. Any compass problems in that area?
So altough the 2 planets share almost the same crustal highs and lows. Mars is lop sided and the Eart more balanced. But life can roam anywhere here, even the hot spots so I guess that might remain true for our Little sister floating out there.
So if they keep the landers in the cool areas zero to minus 3 then the electronics might work better and not get fried comming in like PWM said. BBL, Deuem
Quote from: ArMaP on December 02, 2013, 12:08:55 AM
I found a 11800 x 8750 pixels version (in IMG format) here (http://pdsimage.wr.usgs.gov/archive/lo5-l-80mm_flc_610mm_flc-4-cdr-v1.0/LO5_0001/constructed_frames/frame_125/primary/).
If you are interested you can download a PNG version from here (http://www.4shared.com/download/gPdleZdZ/5125_high_res_2.png).
Warning: the above link points to the full size, 57.5 MB image.
Thanx armap ;) ;)