New Research Topic - The Airships of King Solomon(https://scontent.flas1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/11214347_156782737985989_2340966346584742024_n.jpg?oh=c49fb625ecc8a9bce7bd8bd5e5873b86&oe=5642FC44)
This was sent to ne via FB from a friend in France
QuoteMichele Alran
Il existe en Orient une légende encore tenace qui prête au grand roi biblique l'usage d'un engin volant appelé l'aéronef de Salomon.
D'après le Kébra Nagast, le roi Salomon allait visiter son fils Ménélik 1er roi d'Ethiopie dans une « voiture céleste » : « Le roi et tous ceux qui lui obéissaient volèrent sur un chariot sans douleur ni souffrance, sans sueur ni effort, et parcoururent en un jour la distance que l'on fait en trois mois à pied. »
There exists in the East a persistent legend that alludes to the great biblical king's use of a flying vehicle called Solomon's aircraft.
According to the Kebra Nagast, King Solomon was going to visit his son Menelik, first king of Ethiopia in a "celestial car", "The King and all who obeyed him flew on a cart without pain or suffering, no sweat or effort, and traveled the distance in a day that is made in three months on foot. "
In the picture that was shown I have seen these before...even as a lapel pin. Even words in the Bible referring to flaming chariots makes a person wonder....this is an interesting topic indeed.
(https://scontent.flas1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/11781832_500350730141475_6276460169690462345_n.jpg?oh=15940ee889217362a70bb9efa6c4b783&oe=56384D67)
(https://yuq.me/users/24/393/JwfWgRaV2h.png) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0932813739/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=0932813739&link_code=as3&tag=pegasreseacon-20&linkId=5TSMCH5EHUD5RRFO)
Technology of the Gods: The Incredible Sciences of the Ancients (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0932813739/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=0932813739&link_code=as3&tag=pegasreseacon-20&linkId=5TSMCH5EHUD5RRFO)
Quote from: spacemaverick on August 01, 2015, 09:44:55 PM
In the picture that was shown I have seen these before...even as a lapel pin.
Yes the images used are the "airplanes" in gold found in Columbia (I think will check in a sec)
QuoteEven words in the Bible referring to flaming chariots makes a person wonder....this is an interesting topic indeed
When I got into Ancient Aliens it was via Erick von Danekin and his first book "Chariots of the Gods"
He, with that cook, was pretty much the beginning of Ancient Astronaut theories.
Many stories in the Bible can easily be interpreted as spaceships and portals. They appear in all sorts of Medieval Artwork
Some terms are "Flaming Chariots", "Glowing Clouds" (one that Jacob climbed a ladder to enter, one that descended onto the mountain where Moses wrote the tablets) "Ezekial's Wheels" (A book written by a NASA engineer out to debunk it ended up proving it could be)
One term the Christians use a lot is the GLORY... God travels in the GLORY In many debunker tale about UFO's in ancient art they will say "No that is not a UFO that is a GLORY!"
Well a "GLORY" seems to be a glowing flying object or a portal... BOTH are called GLORIES
Quote from: zorgon on August 01, 2015, 09:53:17 PM
Well a "GLORY" seems to be a glowing flying object or a portal... BOTH are called GLORIES
The "glory" is (supposedly) only light.
So to search for King Solomon's "Airship" we will look for;
THE GLORY OF KINGS
The Kebra Nagast, by E.A. Wallis Budge, [1932], at sacred-texts.com
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/kn/kn001.htm
Quote from: ArMaP on August 01, 2015, 09:58:57 PM
The "glory" is (supposedly) only light.
According to WHOM?
THIS is a GLORY Depicted as a PORTAL with Jesus coming through
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/42stargate/04images/Christian/10076.gif)
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/42stargate/04images/Christian/10035.gif)
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/42stargate/04images/Christian/10037.gif)
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/42stargate/04images/Christian/0906.jpg)
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/42stargate/04images/Christian/0904.jpg)
Mathew 16:27. For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.
Filius enim hominis venturus est in gloria Patris sui cum angelis suis et tunc reddet unicuique secundum opus eius
Mathew 24:27. For as lightning cometh out of the east and appeareth even into the west: so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Sicut enim fulgur exit ab oriente et paret usque in occidente ita erit et adventus Filii hominis
Mathew 24:29. And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light and the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of heaven shall be moved.*
Statim autem post tribulationem dierum illorum sol obscurabitur et luna non dabit lumen suum et stellae cadent de caelo et virtutes caelorum commovebuntur
Mathew 24:30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven. And then shall all tribes of the earth mourn: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with much power and majesty.*
Et tunc parebit signum Filii hominis in caelo et tunc plangent omnes tribus terrae et videbunt Filium hominis venientem in nubibus caeli cum virtute multa et maiestate
In this painting found on a wood drawer from furniture kept at the Earls D'Oltremond, in Belgium, Moses is depicted receiving the tablets of the Ten Commandments, with "flaming horns." Several equally flaming objects are in the sky before him. The date and artist are unknown.
(http://www.crystalinks.com/ufomoses.jpg)
Exodus 19:9
The LORD said to Moses, "I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will hear me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you." Then Moses told the LORD what the people had said.
Exodus 24:16
and the glory of the LORD settled on Mount Sinai. For six days the cloud covered the mountain, and on the seventh day the LORD called to Moses from within the cloud.
King James Bible
And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount.
(http://alienskyships.com/UFO_Cloud2.jpg)
Treasury of Scripture
And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount.
a cloud
Exodus 19:9,16 And the LORD said to Moses, See, I come to you in a thick cloud, ...
2 Chronicles 6:1 Then said Solomon, The LORD has said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.
Matthew 17:5 While he yet spoke, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and ...
http://biblehub.com/exodus/24-15.htm
Quote from: zorgon on August 01, 2015, 10:05:29 PM
According to WHOM?
Many definitions. Look at this one (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=GLORY&searchmode=none).
(Bold added by me)
QuoteThe Christian sense are from the Latin word's use in the Bible to translate Greek doxa "expectation" (Homer), later "an opinion, judgment," and later still "opinion others have of one (good or bad), fame; glory," which was used in Biblical writing to translate a Hebrew word which had a sense of "brightness, splendor, magnificence, majesty of outward appearance." The religious use has colored that word's meaning in most European tongues. Wuldor was an Old English word used in this sense.
Once more, when looking at religious paintings you should learn about the rules of the different epochs.
Quote from: ArMaP on August 01, 2015, 10:20:11 PM
Once more, when looking at religious paintings you should learn about the rules of the different epochs.
What "Rules"? people describe what they see in the sky based on what is popular at the time. They had no airplanes... all they had as a transport vehical was a cart or chariot. Chariots were fast so we get "Flaming Chariots flying in the Sky"
And since only a god would have such a chariot, they made up religions reasons for its existence.
Today we see a glowing object in the air we call it an Alien Flying Saucer :P
So the rules are meaningless... you need to interpret sightings in the context of the meanings of the day
Like this one... I can see this object being described as a "Flaming Shield"
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/pictures/CarlosDiazPhoto1.jpg)
And
LO AND BEHOLD!!!! Such a flaming shield was spotted
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/49ufo_files/04images/Paintings/Coin_001.jpg)
Many coins of this type contained mythological and allegorical scenes, and its mythology has found a literary reference that can explain the nature of the object round which is in the clouds and the earth. It may in fact represent 'Ancil, the sacred shield sent by Jupiter to the King of Rome, Numa Pompilius.
The legend is told in different versions, one of Ovid ( "Fasti, Book III ) Numa Pompilio said that it would decide to question Jupiter to be disclosed the secret to defend against its attacks. Jupiter asks in exchange for a human sacrifice, but that Numa is a peaceful man refuses and fails, with puns, to deceive God. Numa fears the wrath of Jupiter, but instead of angry god laughs for the wit and the king promises him the day after the revelation of the secret. The day after Numa Pompilius convene the representatives of the districts of Rome, and at noon, as promised, here is that of lightning pierce the sky that falls from an oval shield right at his feet. The same Jupiter, throwing the shield from the sky, does not know that Rome would have nothing to fear from his enemies as long as the shield was well guarded. The king is to thank god to sacrifice a heifer and the shield door in the sanctuary of your own home, but for fear that it may be stolen, it builds by the artisan Mamurio Veturius (meaning "old Mars') eleven perfectly equal, then commanding them to be carried by I got during the annual procession on March 2.
As for the coin (it is a jeton), I think it is depicting the ancile, the sacred shield sent from the sky to King Numa by Jupiter. Please read the following from Plutarch's Lives, Volume I:
In the eighth year of Numa's reign an epidemic raged throughout Italy, and afflicted the city of Rome. Now amidst the general distress it is related that a brazen shield fell from heaven into the hands of Numa. Upon this the king made an inspired speech, which he had learned from Egeria and the Muses. The shield, he said, came for the salvation of the city, and they must guard it, and make eleven more like it, so that no thief could steal the one that fell from heaven, because he could not tell which it was. Moreover the place and the meadows round about it, where he was wont to converse with the Muses, must be consecrated to them, and the well by which it was watered must be pointed out as holy water to the vestal virgins, that they might daily take some thence to purify and sprinkle their temple. The truth of this is said to have been proved by the immediate cessation of the plague. He bade workmen compete in imitating the shield, and, when all others refused to attempt it, Veturius Mamurius, one of the best workmen of the time, produced so admirable an imitation, and made all the shields so exactly alike, that even Numa himself could not tell which was the original. He next appointed the Salii to guard and keep them.
It was indeed OPPORTVNVS ADEST or 'here at an opportune time' as the shield saved the city from the plague.
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/49ufo_files/03files2/1680_UFO_on_Coin.html
It always amazes me that modern skeptics have so much difficulty seeing that these old images do represent Unidentified Flying Objects back in the day and were simply INTERPRETED as having Religious significance because at that time, Religion was the only option for ANY explanations. Galileo almost got burned at the stake, the Church apologized and said he was right 350 years AFTER
Yet those same skeptics will vehemently argue that modern UFO sightings are all misinterpretations :P
You can't have it both ways :P
So what do your "rules" say about THIS one?
"Battesimo di Cristo" 1710
Aert De Gelder
(1645-1727)
Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/49ufo_files/04images/Paintings/BaptismOfChristByAertDeGelder.jpg)
Quote from: ArMaP on August 01, 2015, 10:20:11 PM
Many definitions.
Yes the word "GLORY" has many different meanings:
Quote
Noun
1. high renown or honor won by notable achievements.
"to fight and die for the glory of one's nation"
synonyms: renown, fame, prestige, honor, distinction, kudos, eminence, acclaim, praise; More
2. magnificence; great beauty.
"the train has been restored to all its former glory"
synonyms: magnificence, splendor, resplendence, grandeur, majesty, greatness, nobility; More
verb
1. take great pride or pleasure in.
"they were individuals who gloried in their independence"
synonyms: take pleasure in, revel in, rejoice in, delight in; relish, savor; congratulate oneself on, be proud of, boast about, bask in; informalget a kick out of, get a thrill out of
"we gloried in our independence"
A "Glory Hole" is found at every Dam
(http://iliketowastemytime.com/sites/default/files/monticello_dam_drain_glory_hole_usa4.jpg)
Then there is the atmospheric optical effect known as a "Glory"
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/IMG_7474_solar_glory.JPG/1024px-IMG_7474_solar_glory.JPG)
Now the reason the one above is referred to as a "glory' is because it LOOKS LIKE a "Heavenly Apparition" and it is those definitions that interest us for THIS thread
So we go to the RELIGIOUS Definitions of GLORY
http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/glory/
The ones that are relevant:Natural Objects. When used in reference to natural objects "glory" may refer to the brightness of heavenly bodies ( Acts 22:11 ; 1 Col 15:41 )God. The most significant use of the ideas of glory and majesty is their application to God. In this regard, it is sometimes stated that God's glory is the external manifestation of his being. God's glory is something that appears ( Exod 16:10 ), is revealed ( Isa 40:5 ), or can be seen ( Num 14:22 ). There is also a more fundamental sense in which God has glory prior to any external manifestation of it. So the "Glory" is a physical manifestation that is visible and blinding to look at
(http://www.unexplainable.net/images/upload/01ufo.jpg)
Latest UFO Sightings Green Glowing UFO Captured Above USA(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/49ufo_files/04images/Paintings/Annunciation_Crivelli_Carlo_01.jpg)
"The Annunciation with Saint Emidius" (1486)
Carlo Crivelli (1430-1495)
National Gallery, London (http://www.thelivingmoon.com/49ufo_files/04images/Paintings/Annunciation_Detail01.jpg)
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/49ufo_files/04images/Paintings/Madonna_Vecchio_Detail01.jpg)
"Madonna col Bambino e San Giovannino"
(Madonna and Child with the Infant Saint John)
Attributed to Sebastiano Mainardi or Jacopo del Sellaio
Firenze, Palazzo Vecchio Museum, Sala d'Ercolehttp://www.thelivingmoon.com/49ufo_files/04images/Paintings/Foppa68_294_01.jpg
"Adoration of the Child with St. Benedict and Angels" (c 1480)
Vincenzo Foppa
(ca.1430-1515)
The Detroit Institute of Arts So taken from the top speptic debunker site we get THIS interpretation
Returning to the above mentioned detail, the one that was interpreted as an UFO, we see that it is to be found in a great many "Nativities" of the '400 and '500. It is but the announcement to the shepherds, as told in St. Luke's Gospel:
«...and there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field keeping watch over their flock by night. And lo, an angel of the Lord come upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them, Fear ye not: for behold!, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you was born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord...»
The announcement to the shepherds as appears in the Nativity of Vincenzo Foppa (Detroit Institute of Arts):Okay so on his page he shows MANY more paintings, all having a GLOWING OBJECT in the sky with or without an Angel riding it and people on the ground looking up at it..
Religious symbol? NATURALLY because GOD rides around in FLYING SAUCERS :P
All through the Bible when anything important happens the "Glory" is there, either as a glowing orb, or a cloud.
Yet it is true that God's glory is also manifest. It is in the thunderstorm ( Job 37:22 ; Psalm 29:4 ) and more commonly in the events and institutions surrounding the exodus from Egypt. Thus, God's glory is seen in the plagues and other miracles ( Num 14:22 ), in the cloudy pillar ( Exod 16:10 ), in the theophany at Mount Sinai ( Exod 24:17 ; Deut 5:24 ), in the tabernacle ( Exod 29:43 ; 40:34-35 ; Num 14:10 ; Numbers 16:19 Numbers 16:42 ; 20:6 ), in the fire initiating the sacrificial system ( Lev 9:23 ), and in the ark of the covenant ( 1 Sam 4:21-22 ) and the temple of Solomon ( 1 Kings 8:11 ; 2 Chron 7:1-3 ). Its presence is anticipated in the restored Zion ( Psalm 102:15-16 ; Isa 60:19 ; Zech 2:5 ), is actualized at the birth of Christ ( Luke 2:9 ), and will be further accomplished in the heavenly Jerusalem ( Revelation 21:11 Revelation 21:23 ).We call such apparitions in the sky today UFO's we assume they are Alien in origin... back in those days they called them GLORIES and assumed they were Aline in origin (God, Angels, Demons, etc are NOT OF THIS EARTH so are true ET (if they exist))
So why is this so hard for skeptics to grasp?
Today we call THIS a GLORY We know it is just an atmospheric halo effect
(http://l.yimg.com/a/i/sea/vn/today3/vne_haoquangphatto.jpg)
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/19/article-0-1693DCE4000005DC-617_634x388.jpg)
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/08/20/article-0-0ADB92A2000005DC-957_634x582.jpg)
(http://www.cots.com.cn/userfiles/emeishan-fg1.jpg)
But back in the days when Religion held sway... they would be considered apparitions of Holy Spirits (hence the reason Saints have Halos :P
(http://www.miltongoh.net/uploads/7/9/6/9/7969926/3760711.jpg?729)
The Glory in Sight
In today's Gospel, we go up to the mountain with Peter, John and James. There we see Jesus "transfigured," speaking with Moses and Elijah about His "exodus."
(http://hookedonthebook.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Moses-shining-face.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Ygf2s6Vl1IM/UwvSyGS_-_I/AAAAAAAARoc/iK26PStds3Q/s1600/MOSES+ON+MOUNTAIN+WITH+BURNING+BUSH-10X7.JPG)
15-17 Then Moses climbed the mountain. The Cloud covered the mountain. The Glory
of God settled over Mount Sinai. The Cloud covered it for six days. On the seventh day
he called out of the Cloud to Moses. In the view of the Israelites below, the Glory of God looked like a raging fire at the top of the mountain.
(https://thejaggedworddotcom.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/transfiguration-of-christ_p.jpg?w=300&h=260)
Glory of God
(http://www.allanstanglin.com/wp-content/uploads/clouds.jpg)
(https://thepatriotstrumpet.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/great-glory.jpg)
Those are all form Christian sites images depicting the GLORY
Enjoying this thread, cheers Z.
ArMap, there's skeptics and then there's skep-dicks ;) do you have to be debunking, or attempting to debunk like 110% of the time? Haha
Right Back to Solomon.
I am thinking this is all tied into the stories of "Flying Carpets" I never heard before that someone called it a "Flying Machine"
The Secret History of the Flying Carpet
by Bryan Fields on May 29, 2014(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nxpTc5LWDqQ/U2xf-H4jCkI/AAAAAAAAAuU/I5ZE5yGweX8/s1600/Vasnetsov_samolet.jpg)
QuoteI can't take credit for this work; I found it years ago on an Iranian web page that doesn't exist any more. It's a great resource for fantasy writers and game masters alike, so I decided to repost it here. My thanks to the author, whoever you are. If anyone has information on the original author, please post in the comments. Thanks!
Source: http://www.chn.ir/english/eshownews.asp?no=2300
LONG before the broomstick became popular with witches in medieval Europe, the flying carpet was being used by thieves and madmen in the Orient. Factual evidence for what was a long-standing myth has now been found by a French explorer, Henri Baq, in Iran. Baq has discovered scrolls of well-preserved manuscripts in underground cellars of an old Assassin castle at Alamut, near the Caspian Sea. Written in the early thirteenth century by a Jewish scholar named Isaac Ben Sherira,' these manuscripts shed new light on the real story behind the flying carpet of the Arabian Nights.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-uHzvfRZAnKA/U2xf4vhHd8I/AAAAAAAAAuI/Py7G68G_NSw/s1600/321409_fentezi_kovyor-samolyot_dzhennifer-lopes_mark_2000x1364_%28www.GdeFon.ru%29.jpg)
QuoteThe discovery of these artifacts has thrown the scientific world into the most outrageous strife. Following their translation from Persian into English by Professor G.D. Septimus, the renowned linguist, a hastily organized conference of eminent scholars from all over the world was called at the London School of Oriental and African Studies. Baq's discovery came under flak from many historians who insisted that the manuscripts were forgeries. M. Baq, who could not attend the conference because of the birth of his child, was defended by Professor Septimus, who argued that the new findings should be properly investigated. The manuscripts are now being carbon dated at the Istituto Leonardo da Vinci, Trieste.
According to Ben Sherira, Muslim rulers used to consider flying carpets as devil-inspired contraptions. Their existence was denied, their science suppressed, their manufacturers persecuted and any evidence about incidents involving them systematically erased. Although flying carpets were woven and sold till the late thirteenth century, the clientele for them was chiefly at the fringe of respectable society. Ben Sherira writes that flying carpets received a favorable nod from the establishment around AD 1213, when a Toranian prince demonstrated their use in attacking an enemy castle by positioning a squadron of archers on them, so as to form a kind of airborne cavalry; the art otherwise floundered, and eventually perished in the onslaught of the Mongols.
The earliest mention of the flying carpet, according to Ben Sherira's chronicle, was made in two ancient texts. The first of these is a book of proverbs collected by Shamsha-Ad, a minister of the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar, and the other is a book of ancient dialogues compiled by one Josephus. None of these works survives today; however, with their aid, Ben Sherira compiled a story relating to the Queen of Sheba and King Solomon that is not found elsewhere. Located at the southern tip of Arabia, the land of Sheba occupied the area of present-day Yemen, although some geographers claim that Ethiopia or ancient Abyssinia was also part of its territory. This country was ruled by a beautiful and powerful queen who is remembered in history as the Sheba of the Bible, the Saba or Makeda of the Ethiopian epic Kebra Negast, and the Bilqis of Islam.
At the inauguration of the queen in 977 BC, her alchemist-royal demonstrated small brown rugs that could hover a few feet above the ground. Many years later she sent a magnificent flying carpet to King Solomon. A token of love, it was of green sendal embroidered with gold and silver and studded with precious stones, and its length and breadth were such that all the king's host could stand upon it. The king, who was preoccupied with building his temple in Jerusalem, could not receive the gift and gave it to his courtiers. When news of this cool reception reached the queen, she was heartbroken. She dismissed her artisans and never had anything to do with flying carpets again. The king and the queen eventually reconciled, but e wandering artisans found no abode for many years, and eventually had to settle near the town of Baghdad in Mesopotamia in c. 934 BC.
In the Ben Sherira chronicle, certain passages describe the workings of a flying carpet. Unfortunately, much of the vocabulary used in these parts is indecipherable, so little has been understood about their method of propulsion. What is understood is that a flying carpet was spun on a loom like an ordinary carpet; the difference lay in the dyeing process. Here, the artisans had discovered a certain clay, 'procured from mountain springs and untouched by human hand', which, when superheated at 'temperatures that exceeded those of the seventh ring of hell' in a cauldron of boiling Grecian oil, acquired anti-magnetic properties.
Now the Earth itself is a magnet, and has trillions of magnetic lines crossing it from the North to the South Pole. The scientists prepared this clay and dyed the wool in it before weaving it on a loom. So, when the carpet was finally ready, it pulled itself away from the Earth and, depending on the concentration of clay used, hovered a few feet or several hundred feet above the ground. Propulsion went along the magnetic lines, which acted like aerial rails. Although they were known to the Druids in England and the Incas in South America, only recently are physicists beginning to rediscover the special properties of these so-called 'fey-lines'.
Ben Sherira writes that the great library of Alexandria, founded by Ptolemy I, kept a large stock of flying carpets for its readers. They could borrow these carpets in exchange for their slippers, to glide back and forth, up and down, among the shelves of papyrus manuscripts. The library was housed in a ziggurat that contained forty thousand scrolls of such antiquity that they had been transcribed by three hundred generations of scribes, many of whom did not understand the dead alphabet that they bore. The ceiling of this building was so high that readers often preferred to read while hovering in the air. The manuscripts were so numerous that it was said that not even a thousand men reading them day and night for fifty years could read them all.
Although the library had been damaged in the civil war under the Roman emperor Aurelian, its final destruction is attributed to a Muslim general. He burnt the papyrus to heat the six hundred baths of Alexandria, and the carpets, which frightened the wits out of his Bedouin Arabs, were thrown into the sea. Ben Sherira comments bitterly that the knowledge of Alexandria went down the drainpipe in 'washing the dirt of philistines'.
Flying carpets were discouraged in the Islamic lands for two reasons. The official line was that man was never intended to fly, and the flying carpet was a sacrilege to the order of things, an argument that was spread enthusiastically by a zealous clergy. The second reason was economic. For the establishment, it was necessary to keep the horse and the camel as the standard means of transport.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-DCrWfAJPvZ8/U2xf9_H-bNI/AAAAAAAAAuQ/JzAyHAJ_29Q/s1600/Segrellis-Carpet-01.jpg)
QuoteThe reason was that certain Arab families, who had access to the inner chambers of successive rulers, had become rich because of their vast stud farms, where they bred hundreds of thousands of horses each year for the army, merchants and the proletariat. It was the same with camels. Certain Egyptian king-makers (listed by Ben Sherira as the Hatimis, the Zahidis and the progeny of Abu Hanifa II) owned camel farms, and enjoyed a total monopoly on the supply of camels in the whole of the Islamic empire. None of these old families wanted their privileges usurped by a small group of poor artisans who could potentially wreck their markets by making flying carpets popular. Thus they were undermined.
Thanks to the mullahs' propaganda, the Muslim middle class was beginning to shun flying carpets by the mid-eighth century. The market for Arabian horses flourished instead. Camels were also fetching high prices. Ben Sherira notes that a curious incident, which happened around this time, damaged the reputation of the flying carpet beyond salvation: On a bright Friday afternoon in Baghdad, when the white disc of the sun blazed in the third quarter of middle heaven, and the bazaar bustled with people buying fruits and cloth and watching an auction of fair-skinned slaves, there appeared across the sun the shimmering wraith of a turbaned man gliding towards the highest minaret of the Royal Palace.
The devil was no other than a poor soldier who had once served in the palace. He had been caught holding the youngest princess's hand, and was thrown out by the eunuchs, disgraced and defeated. When news about this affair reached the caliph, he was furious. He had the princess locked up in a tower, and to humiliate her, decided to marry her off to his royal executioner, a towering black slave from Zanzibar. The soldier, a Kurdish youth by the name of Mustafa, now returned. He glided up to the minaret and helped a girl climb out of the window. Then in full view of the public below, he glided away. The bazaaris cheered. As the young lovers eloped on their carpet, a battery of the elite guard, mounted on black Arabian stallions, charged out of the palace and gave chase. But the flying carpet disappeared in the clouds above.
The establishment retaliated by hunting down everyone even remotely involved with the business of flying carpets. Thirty artisans were rounded up with their families in a public square. A paid audience was assembled. The men were accused of being libertines, and their heads rolled in the dust, all chopped off by the black executioner from Zanzibar. Next, the caliph sent his spies to every corner of his empire ordering them to bring back every remaining flying carpet and artisan to Baghdad. The small community of artisans, who had lived near the Tigris for several centuries, packed their possessions and, with only three male survivors, fled. After wandering for many months through the moon-like wastes of Iranian marshlands, they reached, ragged and near death, the shining city of Bukhara, where the emir, who did not take orders from Baghdad, gave them refuge.
This exodus, Isaac notes, happened in AD 776, a decade before the celebrated reign of Harun ur Rashid, when The Thousand and One Nights was written. Isaac believes that the inspiration for at least one of the tales in the Arabian Nights comes from the incident of the eloping lovers on that bright Friday afternoon in Baghdad. Ben Sherira describes the genealogy of the artisans in great detail. Some of these families later migrated to Afghanistan and established themselves in the Kingdom of Ghor. The most renowned family of carpet weavers, the Halevis, settled in the town of Merv, where they began to introduce patterns into their carpets. The mandala in the centre was a trademark of the master, Jacob Yahud Halevi ? the same Jacob who appears in history as the teacher of Avicenna.
Artisans also wandered (or flew) into Europe, where their recipes were subsequently employed by a feminist secret society, that of the witches. Their persecution, meted out by the church, was equally swift. Ben Sherira claims that the witches' trademark, the broomstick, with its phallic symbolism, was developed because of their lack of male company. In Transoxiana, the flying carpet enjoyed a brief renaissance before being erased forever by the Mongol hordes of Genghis Khan.
Two incidents are worthy of mention here. In 1213, Prince Behroz of the state of Khorasan in eastern Persia, took to heart a young Jewess, Ashirah. Her father was an accomplished carpet-maker. Behroz married Ashirah against the wishes of his family, and requested his father-in-law to weave two dozen flying carpets using the best wool and the best clay, specially wound on a bamboo frame to make them more robust. Next he had forty-eight of his handpicked archers trained by a Japanese master by the name of Ryu Taro Koike (1153-1240?).
When the archers were ready and the carpets delivered, he assembled his men and gave each man his weapons: twenty steel-pointed arrows tipped with rattlesnake venom, longbows made of layers of deodar and catgut, and Armenian daggers. Two men were assigned to each carpet: one fore, one aft. Some carried fireballs. Behroz thus conceived four squadrons of the first airborne cavalry of the world, which went into action when his father waged a war against the neighboring Khwarzem Shah.
The archers led the assault: they attacked the castle, dived in and flew out, felled the defenders and threw fireballs inside its compound, setting it ablaze. The Toranian military brass were awed. They sensed that the prince could become a threat to their oligarchy, and with his father's consent, blinded him. The prince's wife, heavy with child, and her ailing father were banished from the kingdom.
Around this time, the Abbasids no longer wielded the same power as in the days of Harun ur Rashid. Many local kings and emirs were taking matters into their own hands. As the grip of the empire on its states weakened, a cult of the flying carpet flourished. Young dissidents, political refugees, hermits and agnostics went airborne for their escapades. Merchants also began to see the advantages of the flying carpet. The flying carpet was not only a much speedier form of transport than the camel but also a safer one since bandits would not waylay a flying trade caravan ? unless they themselves were on a fleet of flying carpets.
Artisans began to weave bigger carpets, but with more people on board these became sluggish and lost height. But there is one episode, witnessed by many people on the ground, where a party of turbaned men flew from Samarkand to Isfahan at whirlwind speed. This incident is corroborated in the facsimile of another rare text, produced in the seventeenth century, in which one witness is quoted as saying 'We saw a strange whirling disc in the sky, which flew over our village [Nishapur], trailing fire and sulphur', and another: 'A band of djinn appeared over our caravan, heading towards the Straits of Ormuz.'[sup5] (The thirteenth-century original of this text is impossible to find.)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nxpTc5LWDqQ/U2xf-H4jCkI/AAAAAAAAAuU/I5ZE5yGweX8/s1600/Vasnetsov_samolet.jpg)
QuoteThe next incident, before the terrible invasion from the steppes, was the last straw in the ill-fated history of the flying carpet. In 1223, a dragoman of Georgia arrived in Bukhara with his harem to shop for Chinese silk. Ben Sherira's source, the guardian of Minareh Kalyan, describes what eventuated: On a pleasant evening, when the suk was bustling with people, and the veiled ladies from Georgia had just disembarked from their litters and were being escorted to the silk merchant, a madman appeared from behind a dome and swooped down at them. The flier was a giant of a man with a magnificent black beard and long hair trailing in the wind behind him. He was wearing a loincloth, his eyes were a luminous green, an eagle was flying by his side, and he was laughing madly.
The women saw this apparition heading towards them and froze with terror as he tore away his loincloth and started urinating in their upturned faces. This man was the mathematician-royal of Samarkand, Karim Beg Isfahani. Betrayed by his Georgian mistress, he had drunk a goblet of fermented grapes and gone insane. The incident caused pandemonium. A spear was launched that caught him in the chest, and he fell, dead, into a palm tree. But the outrage caused in Bukhara was understandable.
Fearing another massacre, the artisans burnt their laboratories, left their possessions, and fled in all directions. Ben Sherira writes that on that fateful day they swore never again to weave together a flying carpet. The story almost ends here.
In 1226 Genghis Khan laid waste most of the cities in Central Asia. Their inhabitants were massacred; their treasures plundered. The towers of skulls outside Herat, Balkh and Bukhara ? so vast that the whole countryside reeked with their stench ? included the skulls of the artisans. In their loot, the Mongols found flying carpets. When a prisoner told them that these contraptions were more agile than the steppes pony (a blasphemy to Mongol ears, if ever there was one), the great Khan beheaded him and had his skull made into a drinking mug. He ordered all flying carpets in his vast empire confiscated.
To see more posts by Bryan Fields, check out his blog, Laughing Otter's Lair
http://thedragonsrocketship.com/the-secret-history-of-the-flying-carpet/
Quote from: Sinny on August 02, 2015, 05:13:50 AM
Enjoying this thread, cheers Z.
ArMap, there's skeptics and then there's skep-dicks ;) do you have to be debunking, or attempting to debunk like 110% of the time? Haha
I myself am curious as to why ArMap is always trying to debunk most of the time. Response ArMap? Z has a very interesting subject going here. I have often wondered about the various objects showing up in ancient paintings. We don't have the answer but it sure is an interesting journey to try and find the answers.
KEBRA NAGAST
700 Years of History
The Kebra Negast is the oldest text of linage in Africa and is at least seven hundred years old, and is revered by many Ethiopian Christians and Rastafarians.
Not only does it contain an account of how the Queen of Sheba met Solomon, and about how the Ark of the Covenant came to Ethiopia with Menelik I, but contains an account of the conversion of the Ethiopians from the worship of celestial objects to the current Tewahedo Church (Ethiopian Orthodox Church)
http://www.kebranegast.com/kebranagast.html
Kebra Negast - Hogarth Blake Ltd (http://www.hh-bb.com/kebra-negast.pdf) PDF
The Queen of Sheba and Her Only Son Menyelek (Këbra Negast) (http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/kebra_budge.pdf) PDF
The Kebra Nagast Index (http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/kn/) - Sacred Texts
This is the origin of the OP Image
The Thrones Of Solomon
Xavier Séguin August 7, 2014(http://eden-saga.com/wp-content/uploads/temple-viracocha-cuzco-trone-salomon-688po.jpg)
QuoteThere is in the East a legend still tenacious which attributes the great biblical king the use of a flying machine called Solomon's aircraft.
According to the Kebra Nagast, King Solomon visited his son Menelik King of Ethiopia by flying in a "celestial car":
"The king and all who obeyed him flew on a cart without pain or suffering, without sweat or strain, and traversed in one day the distance than we do in three months (on foot)." On the other hand, "the entire Middle East, to Kashmir, is dotted with mountains called "thrones of Solomon", as the Takht-i-Suleiman (Throne of Solomon) that raises its flat top in the north-western Iran, which has been conjectured that they have been used as airstrips for Solomon's aircraft." (Technology of the Gods: The Incredible Sciences of the Ancients By David Hatcher Childress (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0932813739/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=0932813739&link_code=as3&tag=pegasreseacon-20&linkId=3IDC7NJ2LTWI5YEA))
(http://eden-saga.com/wp-content/uploads/takht-e-soleiman543po.jpg)
QuoteStill today, in Central Asia, "people think that King Solomon continues to fly on its miraculous flying machine over the vast areas of Asia. In the mountains, it is not uncommon to find ruins or stones bearing, as a remnant of his long prayers, the mark of his foot or his knees.
These mountains are called thrones of Solomon. The great king went there by flying and reaching the heights, forgot the cares of government and refreshed his mind." (source: Nicholas Roerich Shambala 1930)
http://eden-saga.com/wp-content/uploads/trones-salomon-ville-volante-543.jpg
Revelation of the Holy Grail
By Chevalier Emerys
(http://static.lulu.com/browse/product_thumbnail.php?productId=18596124&resolution=320)
Revelation of the Holy Grail By Chevalier Emerys (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0615158781/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=0615158781&link_code=as3&tag=pegasreseacon-20&linkId=U6OEWL72V4XKKJDW)
Relevant Clipping from Google Books
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/00temp/Solomon_003.png)
Solomon's Carpet.
(http://cdn.nazmiyalantiquerugs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Magic-Carpet-from-One-Thousand-and-One-Nights.jpg)
With reference to Solomon's dominion over all the creatures of the world, including spirits, several stories are current, the best known of which is that of Solomon and the ant (Jellinek, l.c. v. 22 et seq.). It is narrated as follows: "When God appointed Solomon king over every created thing, He gave him a large carpet sixty miles long and sixty miles wide, made of green silk interwoven with pure gold, and ornamented with figured decorations. Surrounded by his four princes, Asaph b. Berechiah, prince of men, Ramirat, prince of the demons, a lion, prince of beasts, and an eagle, prince of birds, when Solomon sat upon the carpet he was caught up by the wind, and sailed through the air so quickly that he breakfasted at Damascus and supped in Media. One day Solomon was filled with pride at his own greatness and wisdom; and as a punishment therefor the wind shook the carpet, throwing down 40,000 men. Solomon chided the wind for the mischief it had done; but the latter rejoined that the king would do well to turn toward God and cease to be proud; whereupon Solomon felt greatly ashamed.
"On another day while sailing over a valley where there were many swarms of ants, Solomon heard one ant say to the others, 'Enter your houses; otherwise Solomon's legions will destroy you.' The king asked why she spoke thus, and she answered that she was afraid if the ants looked at Solomon's legions they might be turned from their duty of praising God, which would be disastrous to them. She added that, being the queen of the ants, she had in that capacity given them the order to retire. Solomon desired to ask her a question; but she told him that it was not becoming for the interrogator to be above and the interrogated below. Solomon thereupon brought her up out of the valley; but she then said it was not fitting that he should sit on a throne while she remained on the ground. Solomon now placed her upon his hand, and asked her whether there was any one in the world greater than he. The ant replied that she was much greater; otherwise God would not have sent him there to place her upon his hand. The king, greatly angered, threw her down, saying, 'Dost thou know who I am? I am Solomon, the son of David!' She answered: 'I know that thou art created of a corrupted drop [comp. Ab. iii. 1]; therefore thou oughtest not to be proud.' Solomon was filled with shame, and fell on his face.
"Flying further, Solomon noticed a magnificent palace to which there appeared to be no entrance. He ordered the demons to climb to the roof and see if they could discover any living being within the building. The demons found there only an eagle, which they took before Solomon. Being asked whether it knew of an entrance to the palace, the eagle said that it was 700 years old, but that it had never seen such an entrance. An elder brother of the eagle, 900 years old, was then found, but it also did not know the entrance. The eldest brother of these two birds, which was 1,300 years old, then declared it had been informed by its father that the door was on the west side, but that it had become hidden by sand drifted by the wind. Having discovered the entrance, Solomon found many inscriptions on the doors. In the interior of the palace was an idol having in its mouth a silver tablet which bore the following inscription in Greek: 'I, Shaddad, the son of 'Ad, reigned over a million cities, rode on a million horses, had under me a million vassals, and slew a million warriors, yet I could not resist the angel of death.'"
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13842-solomon
Quote from: zorgon on August 02, 2015, 03:47:49 AM
What "Rules"?
The "rules" the painters followed to represent things related to religion.
Quotepeople describe what they see in the sky based on what is popular at the time.
The painters were not the witnesses, they made the paintings according to what the people paying for the painting wanted, and they wanted things that could be easily understood by those looking at the painting, so the painters followed what I called "rules" (I can't remember the correct word) to represent such things.
QuoteSo the rules are meaningless... you need to interpret sightings in the context of the meanings of the day
The rules are not meaningless when you look at the paintings instead of the "witnesses reports", as what we are looking at is the artistic representation of an event someone else witnessed.
I suggest, again, that you speak to someone that has studied art history.
Quote from: zorgon on August 02, 2015, 03:55:09 AM
It always amazes me that modern skeptics have so much difficulty seeing that these old images do represent Unidentified Flying Objects back in the day and were simply INTERPRETED as having Religious significance because at that time, Religion was the only option for ANY explanations. Galileo almost got burned at the stake, the Church apologized and said he was right 350 years AFTER
What amazes me (well, it doesn't amaze me any more, I'm already used to your way of thinking) is that you keep on talking about paintings from the 16th century (for example) as something that was made by the biblical witnesses.
QuoteSo what do your "rules" say about THIS one?
I do not know the rules (I didn't study art history, I only know a few things about it because I wrote some of my sister's works on the computer while she was studying art), I am only saying that they did had rules and that if you ignore them you are going the wrong way about it.
Quote from: zorgon on August 02, 2015, 04:35:18 AM
So the "Glory" is a physical manifestation that is visible and blinding to look at
That's what I was saying, it's the light, not an object.
QuoteWe call such apparitions in the sky today UFO's we assume they are Alien in origin... back in those days they called them GLORIES and assumed they were Aline in origin (God, Angels, Demons, etc are NOT OF THIS EARTH so are true ET (if they exist))
The problem is the "those days" part, as "those days" where the ones when they wrote about it, not when the paintings were made.
QuoteSo why is this so hard for skeptics to grasp?
This particular sceptic (me) grasps it, but it looks like most "believers" (as the best word I can find to use as opposite to sceptic) ignore, either by natural ignorance or on purpose, for whatever reasons they may have, that art in general is always a result of the time it was made and religious art is, besides that, affected by what that particular religion says.
The fact that most of the religious paintings presented as "evidence" of UFOs or whatever are from the Renaissance should be a sign that we are looking more at a way of representing the scene than at a faithful representation of what happened.
Quote from: Sinny on August 02, 2015, 05:13:50 AM
ArMap, there's skeptics and then there's skep-dicks ;) do you have to be debunking, or attempting to debunk like 110% of the time? Haha
It looks like a lost battle, as, apparently, everybody is seeing this as debunking when I am only trying to point that art (specially religious art and Renaissance art) is a result of the time it was made, it's not a journalistic representation of the events it depicts.
People should treat art in the same way they treat other things. When we are talking about an UFO being seen on a radar scope most people do not have any problem with understanding that the fact that an UFO appears or not on a radar scope is related to the technical part of the radar, so why are people against the technical part of religious art and act as if they were photos taken in the biblical times?
Specific areas have specific specific experts, so why treat art as if it was not a specific area? We just have to look at the different representations of Jesus to see that we are not looking at objective representations.
PS: all this should be the topic of a different thread, but I'm not a creative person, I'm more a problem solver, so I'm not thinking about creating it. :-\
Quote from: spacemaverick on August 02, 2015, 06:57:52 AM
I myself am curious as to why ArMap is always trying to debunk most of the time. Response ArMap?
I hope my previous posts are enough. If they aren't just say it. :)
A nicely put together thread "Z" to your usual high standard. I am often amazed how you seem to obtain and post some of the info you find so fast !.
I think that I have seen you post images of the airship on a previous thread, but probably not the exact same initial image that you say you obtained from your Facebook friend.
Quote from: ArMaP on August 02, 2015, 11:21:06 AM
It looks like a lost battle, as, apparently, everybody is seeing this as debunking when I am only trying to point that art (specially religious art and Renaissance art) is a result of the time it was made, it's not a journalistic representation of the events it depicts.
You are forgetting the fact that Artists are very intuitive and have always drawn on outside sources, such as the Akashic Record, for inspiration. Any GOOD artist can take a story and do a very good representation of the event...
A good example is Jules Verne... he drew THIS sketch of what he 'saw' in his mind... in 1864
(http://media.designingdisney.com/sites/default/files/resize/images/journey-center-earth/5-verne-250x373.jpg)
Then in 2005 REALITY shows us THIS...
(http://ourfunnyplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Crystal-Cave-of-the-Giants.jpg)
A skeptic will say "Coincidence" but to discount the intuitive nature of artists and dismiss it is silly. An artistic person also very quickly without prompting can see anomalies in photos... while skeptics see "only blurry rocks"
QuotePeople should treat art in the same way they treat other things. When we are talking about an UFO being seen on a radar scope most people do not have any problem with understanding that the fact that an UFO appears or not on a radar scope is related to the technical part of the radar, so why are people against the technical part of religious art and act as if they were photos taken in the biblical times?
Because the DESCRIPTIONS used in Religious texts can easily be interpreted in modern times to mean UFO's fantastic beam weapons and Aliens... and it is the description that artists use to interpret the image
Authors went to great lengths in Sci Fi books to describe the scenes so you can VISUALIZE what they are talking about... the only difference is the terminology used..
So a Flaming Chariot in the sky becomes a UFO... a flying shield is the same thing as a flying saucer
Here is a nice artists concept of a Flying Shield Saucer :P
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/49ufo_files/04images/Artwork/UFO_at_Sunset.jpg)
In the case of the flying shield coins the DESCRIPTION is of a giant glowing shield sent by the God Jupiter... it came from the Heavens... How can that NOT be interpreted to be a UFO in modern terms?
Here is another version on a coin... the flying shield is fighting off the army and saves the city.....
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/49ufo_files/04images/Paintings/Coin_005a.png)
Flying shield... same shape as flying saucer :P To think anything else is ludicrous
QuotePS: all this should be the topic of a different thread, but I'm not a creative person, I'm more a problem solver, so I'm not thinking about creating it. :-\
Not really no... because it provides context and background and doesn't need to be split up all over the place. I tend to prefer to keep SIMILAR topics in one thread to show the big picture... not nit pick each individual case.
Quote from: zorgon on August 03, 2015, 01:27:33 AM
You are forgetting the fact that Artists are very intuitive and have always drawn on outside sources, such as the Akashic Record, for inspiration. Any GOOD artist can take a story and do a very good representation of the event...
I'm not forgetting that, I have two artists in the family. :)
Yes, a good artist needs only imagination and ability to create art, but we are talking about religious paintings that were mostly commissioned (I don't know if that's the right word) either by the Catholic Church or by powerful people that had connections with religion, we are not talking about art created just because the artist wanted to do something, most (if not all) of the famous painters from the Renaissance were half artist and half merchant, as they lived of their work for rich families or the Church.
QuoteA good example is Jules Verne... he drew THIS sketch of what he 'saw' in his mind... in 1864
(http://media.designingdisney.com/sites/default/files/resize/images/journey-center-earth/5-verne-250x373.jpg)
Did he really? That drawing (looks more like an engraving) was made by Édouard Riou, and I thought Jules Verne was only a writer.
QuoteA skeptic will say "Coincidence" but to discount the intuitive nature of artists and dismiss it is silly.
No, a sceptic doesn't say that, at least not if he knows about Jules Verne. :)
QuoteAn artistic person also very quickly without prompting can see anomalies in photos... while skeptics see "only blurry rocks"
No.
QuoteBecause the DESCRIPTIONS used in Religious texts can easily be interpreted in modern times to mean UFO's fantastic beam weapons and Aliens... and it is the description that artists use to interpret the image
The description and what the people paying for the painting wanted to see. And why do you think all the work done by the people that studied art and art history is meaningless?
QuoteIn the case of the flying shield coins the DESCRIPTION is of a giant glowing shield sent by the God Jupiter... it came from the Heavens... How can that NOT be interpreted to be a UFO in modern terms?
There you go mixing things again, I was talking about the paintings, not that coin.
QuoteNot really no... because it provides context and background and doesn't need to be split up all over the place. I tend to prefer to keep SIMILAR topics in one thread to show the big picture... not nit pick each individual case.
OK. :)
[/quote]
Quote from: ArMaP on August 03, 2015, 02:09:43 AM
There you go mixing things again, I was talking about the paintings, not that coin.
THAT is why I "mix things up" :P
The Shield in the coin example is hard to say it is NOT a UFO "...a flying object came from the heavens sent by the God Jupiter to save the day" :D
Now we look at a Religious Patron commissioning an artwork...
Patron says: "Paint me a picture of an Angel in a glowing "Glory" sent from God to make an announcement to the shepherds and have the shepherds and their dogs gazing up into the heavens shielding their eyes from the brightness of the "Glory"
UFO researcher says: Paint me a picture of some Tall Whites with a glowing aura standing in front of a bright glowing UFO"
Funny... I don't see the difference :P
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-s4C2XglZzb4/UUaIdCYY1xI/AAAAAAAADNY/LXkhsJOXPsY/s1600/Tall+Whites+aliens+are+among+us.jpg)
Quote from: zorgon on August 03, 2015, 02:17:21 AM
THAT is why I "mix things up" :P
The Shield in the coin example is hard to say it is NOT a UFO "...a flying object came from the heavens sent by the God Jupiter to save the day" :D
Now we look at a Religious Patron commissioning an artwork...
Patron says: "Paint me a picture of an Angel in a glowing "Glory" sent from God to make an announcement to the shepherds and have the shepherds and their dogs gazing up into the heavens shielding their eyes from the brightness of the "Glory"
UFO researcher says: Paint me a picture of some Tall Whites with a glowing aura standing in front of a bright glowing UFO"
Funny... I don't see the difference :P
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-s4C2XglZzb4/UUaIdCYY1xI/AAAAAAAADNY/LXkhsJOXPsY/s1600/Tall+Whites+aliens+are+among+us.jpg)
Win.
Quote from: ArMaP on August 03, 2015, 02:09:43 AM
Did he really? That drawing (looks more like an engraving) was made by Édouard Riou, and I thought Jules Verne was only a writer.
AH!!! So your saying Édouard Riou made that engraving from Jules Verne's DESCRIPTION?
::)
Quote from: zorgon on August 03, 2015, 02:17:21 AM
THAT is why I "mix things up" :P
I don't understand why, it only "muddies the waters". ???
QuoteFunny... I don't see the difference :P
I see two differences:
1 - the religious work follows the "standards" for religious works (otherwise the artist would risk not getting paid or, depending on the cases, be put on a slow fire) while the UFO art follows the UFO art "standards";
2 - both works are affected by way of thinking of the time they were made.
Quote from: zorgon on August 03, 2015, 05:01:31 AM
AH!!! So your saying Édouard Riou made that engraving from Jules Verne's DESCRIPTION?
I'm not saying it, as I never state things I don't know as absolute truths (like you did when you wrote that Jules Verne had made the drawing :P), but that's how things are usually done, the writer, as the person who had the idea, tells the drawer what he/she has in mind and the drawer/painter/whatever makes the work and shows it to the writer, to see if it follows the original idea.
Quote from: ArMaP on August 03, 2015, 02:03:15 PM
1 - the religious work follows the "standards" for religious works (otherwise the artist would risk not getting paid or, depending on the cases, be put on a slow fire) while the UFO art follows the UFO art "standards";
Armap, then it seems to me that adding flying craft to religious paintings in that era was an acceptable practice...
Quote2 - both works are affected by way of thinking of the time they were made.
I tend to agree; but this just re-inforces that whoever was giving guidance to what was to be put on the canvas had reason for wanting aerial objects depicted...
8)
seeker
Nice collection of religious UFO art there Z! 8)
I noticed when you posted this one in an earlier thread -
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Masolino,_fondazione_di_santa_maria_maggiore.jpg)
...our resident art critic thought that the artist was just a crap painter of clouds.
Odd that this artist does an admirable job of portraying people, buildings, structures, background scenery, and distance perspective with no problem, but suddenly when it came time to paint clouds, suddenly all his skill went out the window.
How very strange, all the way to quite unlikely I would wager. ;)
Anyway, here's a few more crap religious paintings of clouds, sending out beams of light and what not to round out your collection -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxKAjV2cjfU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxKAjV2cjfU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxKAjV2cjfU)
Quote from: the seeker on August 04, 2015, 02:41:09 AM
Armap, then it seems to me that adding flying craft to religious paintings in that era was an acceptable practice...
I tend to agree; but this just re-inforces that whoever was giving guidance to what was to be put on the canvas had reason for wanting aerial objects depicted...
But that's what I have been saying, the paintings represent what was asked, not what really happened in biblical times.
They are not a pictorial report of events, so we cannot really say that this painting or that are evidence that what it looks like really happened 2000 years ago.
Quote from: A51Watcher on August 04, 2015, 05:34:31 AM
...our resident art critic thought that the artist was just a crap painter of clouds.
What I (not an art critic, although any artist will tell you that anyone is an art critic ;) ) was that "the painter was not very good or too lazy". In the much better quality version you posted the clouds have more detail, so they look more like clouds, although not as much as I think they should. :)
The same happens with the mountains in the background, they look slightly "stylized".
QuoteOdd that this artist does an admirable job of portraying people, buildings, structures, background scenery, and distance perspective with no problem, but suddenly when it came time to paint clouds, suddenly all his skill went out the window.
How very strange, all the way to quite unlikely I would wager. ;)
One common thing was for the painter to do the main parts of the work and have his students (painters working for him, trying to become professional painters) to do the backgrounds and other less important parts. If they were good enough they could, for example, do the clothes, while the master did the most important parts, like the faces or the main figures.
I don't know if that's what happened with this artist (not all had students) and this particular painting.
Well the options are, ArMap... Work with what we've got or not at all.
I'll be the first to say 'we can never know for sure', but we can still make educated guesses.
Quote from: Sinny on August 04, 2015, 08:18:00 PM
Well the options are, ArMap... Work with what we've got or not at all.
That's obvious, but when we work with something we should look at it (whatever it is) as it is, not as what we like it to be.
QuoteI'll be the first to say 'we can never know for sure', but we can still make educated guesses.
That's my problem, when we are talking about art, ignoring all that's behind it is making uneducated guesses. Art is a specific area, with specific "standards" and "rules", so, if we include the standards and rules of other areas, why should we ignore them when we are talking about art, specially religious art?
So you are saying that detailed descriptive narrations given and written down by many people made in the CONTEXT of the time the events happened... cannot be accurately portrayed by an artist?
::)
Quote from: zorgon on August 04, 2015, 10:22:58 PM
So you are saying that detailed descriptive narrations given and written down by many people made in the CONTEXT of the time the events happened... cannot be accurately portrayed by an artist?
::)
No, I'm saying nothing like that, having to keep on repeating what I am saying because of all those misleading answers that imply that I said things I didn't say is getting tiring.
I'm saying that the paintings are influenced by the time they were made and by the interpretation of the painter and of the person (if any) that was paying for the painting.
And? Are you assuming the artists/directors interpretation is wrong?
Hi all, I am enjoying the thread so far.
A disc like object pouring smoke; hovering over buildings has been found in a Romanian monastery wall painting thought to date from the 16th century.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-HLse65pdSg0/VFA8Ko4E0QI/AAAAAAAAeuI/cM-6kah7nWU/s1600/ufo-16th-century%2Bpainting.jpg)
It is very close to the depiction in the coin Z has posted.
Quote from: Sinny on August 05, 2015, 02:26:27 AM
And? Are you assuming the artists/directors interpretation is wrong?
What she said :P
Don't forget these were included in paintings at a time when the Inquisition was looking over your shoulder :D
Bacchus and Ariadne
by Luca Giordano circa 1670
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/A51Watcher/Luca-Giordano-Bacchus-and-Ariadne_zpsxmf4ygaz.jpg)
Now there's some nice clouds. ;)
Quote from: Sinny on August 05, 2015, 02:26:27 AM
And? Are you assuming the artists/directors interpretation is wrong?
Unlike the people that assume they are an exact representation of what happened, I'm assuming nothing.
So after all that, you have no opinion. ::)
ArMaP is stuck between a Rock and a Hard Place... He is like Fox Mulder He WANTS to believe but just can't quite get there :D
But hey we have found a few he can't dismiss ;)
Quote from: A51Watcher on August 05, 2015, 07:15:29 AM
Bacchus and Ariadne
by Luca Giordano circa 1670
Now there's some nice clouds. ;)
NICE! I did not have that one!!!
Quote from: burntheships on August 05, 2015, 04:12:14 AM
Hi all, I am enjoying the thread so far.
A disc like object pouring smoke; hovering over buildings has been found in a Romanian monastery wall painting thought to date from the 16th century.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-HLse65pdSg0/VFA8Ko4E0QI/AAAAAAAAeuI/cM-6kah7nWU/s1600/ufo-16th-century%2Bpainting.jpg)
It is very close to the depiction in the coin Z has posted.
That's an interesting find, but I wonder why the text appears to be in German, if it was found in a Romanian monastery wall. ???
Quote from: Sinny on August 05, 2015, 09:59:14 AM
So after all that, you have no opinion. ::)
I have an opinion, but that's not what I have been talking about, what I have been saying is that the paintings, being made centuries after the events and influenced by the time they were made, should not be considered a true representation of the events from biblical times, in the same way I don't think we should look at a painting representing Jesus as a Caucasian (or whatever) man as a true representation of what the real Jesus looked like.
Quote from: zorgon on August 05, 2015, 01:05:43 PM
ArMaP is stuck between a Rock and a Hard Place... He is like Fox Mulder He WANTS to believe but just can't quite get there :D
I don't want to believe in any thing, I want to know. :)
Quote from: zorgon on August 02, 2015, 07:45:38 AM
Revelation of the Holy Grail
By Chevalier Emerys
(http://static.lulu.com/browse/product_thumbnail.php?productId=18596124&resolution=320)
Revelation of the Holy Grail By Chevalier Emerys (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0615158781/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=0615158781&link_code=as3&tag=pegasreseacon-20&linkId=U6OEWL72V4XKKJDW)
Relevant Clipping from Google Books
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/00temp/Solomon_003.png)
Hey dude do you have anything on the term "Shemanna" used in that article in reference to Spaceships?
The few searches I have done keep referring back to bread. Now if that term is infact how good Bread is. Then why did people learn to make Bread all at a similar time whilst not being connected geographically. That make no sense in the official Earth Tale.
Which means nothing as if I was to search how the Pyramids were built I would most likely find some dude with a long tree branch manipulating a pulley based system stating "I can lift a million tonne rock in my backyard.... Egypt Cracked" whilst omitting how he didn't make perfectly square and precise fitting rock's to make an actual pyramid... which then becomes fact because it suits modern human thought, which then becomes slobber for the web to be posted by every slobbering fool who has no inclination to challenge their 'Status Quo' in the story of Earth.
Quote from: ArMaP on August 05, 2015, 01:17:11 PM
That's an interesting find, but I wonder why the text appears to be in German, if it was found in a Romanian monastery wall. ???
Good question ArMap, I will try and find out more.
If you come up with anything, feel free to debunk it.
8)
Possible UFO discovered in an old wall painting in Romania
Posted by: Alejandro Rojas June 18, 2014.(https://i1.wp.com/u.jimdo.com/www39/o/sa4f22984f18e7aef/img/i8430f269ae2d308d/1403220864/std/image.jpg)
QuoteA UFO research organization in Israel has sent out a report regarding a wall painting in a 14th century church in Romania that may depict a UFO. It is similar to objects seen in paintings and coins ranging from the 4th century to the 17th century. One UFO investigator feels that the objects in the images may have an explanation that is more down to earth.
Gilli Schechter and Hannan Sabat of the Israeli Extraterrestrials and UFOs Research Organization (EURA), say they received a picture of the painting from Catalina Borta. Borta took the picture while visiting the Biserica Manastirii, or Church of the Dominican Monastery, in the town of Sighisoara. Sighisoara is believed to the birthplace of Vlad the Impaler, the inspiration for the legend of Dracula.
(https://i0.wp.com/www.openminds.tv/wp-content/uploads/Romanian-Sighisoara-Biserica-Manastirii-Panting.jpg)
The Sighisoara wall painting. (Credit: Catalina Borta)QuoteThe wall painting depicts a disc-shaped object over a building that is emitting smoke. It also has a caption in German that reads "Israel, hoffe auf den HERRN," which translated means "Israel, put your hope in the Lord." EURA explains that this is a quote from Psalms song of ascents, c.130 v.7.
The painting appears to be very old, but it is hard to tell how old. According the Monastery's website, it was originally built in the 14th century, but was destroyed and rebuilt in the 17th century. The EURA report also notes that they are unsure who painted it and when. However, they point out that the caption in the painting probably dates it to after 1523, when the bible was translated into German.
EURA also notes that the painting is not often referenced in UFO research regarding depictions of UFOs in art. However, the image does look similar to other paintings and coins which are commonly believed by UFO researchers to depict aerial anomalies.
One such image is from the Prodigiorum Liber, which was an account of mysterious occurrence in early Rome written by Julius Obsequens. The image in question is supposed to depict a round object that was seen at sunset with a "large beam of fire" to the right. This sighting is supposed to have taken place in 98 B.C.
(https://i0.wp.com/www.openminds.tv/wp-content/uploads/Prodigiorum-Liber-UFO.jpg)
Image from the Prodigiorum Liber.QuoteThere are also French coins from the 17th century with a similar round object. Some researchers believe these to be depictions of Ezekiel's wheel. However, Marc Dantonio, Chief Photo/Video Analyst for the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON), has another explanation. He says the shield-shaped object in these images is just that, a military shield.
Dantonio came to this conclusion by researching France in the late 1600s. He found the shields of that period did appear just like the images depicted in the coins. Furthermore, there was a civil war in France in 1680, in which the territorial aristocracy was replaced by the absolute monarch of Louis XIV. He believes the shields were placed on the coins to illustrate King Louis' strength.
(http://www.openminds.tv/wp-content/uploads/Jeton-Pair.jpg)
Coins from France called Jetons. These depict the shield images that are often believed to be UFOs.(http://www.openminds.tv/wp-content/uploads/Shields.jpg)
Images provided by Marc Dantonio of a couple of shields from antiquity whose designs look similar to those in the "UFO" art.QuoteHe points out that on another coin, arrows can be seen raining down onto the shield as in an archer's attack. He also notes that in some cases a line can be seen coming from the center of the shield, which is often mistaken for a ray of light coming from the craft. However, Dantonio explains this is actually a piece of metal that is attached to the shield to deflect arrows.
Although, Dantonio says the object is a shield, he admits that it is still a mystery as to why they are in the sky or coming out of the clouds. He writes:
"One story is that this particular coin is showing Jupiter's Shield falling to Earth to aid Numa Pompilius, the second Roman king. The shield it said led them to victory during desperate times. But even so, it is still interesting that the shield was bestowed from on high. Was there some otherworldly influence rooted in their culture that prompted putting the shield in the sky? Protection or technology from above perhaps? That's still a mystery."
http://www.openminds.tv/possible-ufo-discovered-old-wall-painting-romania/28362
So... the German inscription "Israel, hoffe auf den HERRN," which translated means "Israel, put your hope in the Lord." means that this object was intended to portray protection from God.
That ties in to the same version as the coins being a Shield sent from Jupiter.
Seems pretty clear in meaning to me :P
(http://www.ufocasebook.com/2015/osnaburgh-ontario-canada-large.jpg)
Quote from: Somamech on August 05, 2015, 04:47:18 PM
Hey dude do you have anything on the term "Shemanna" used in that article in reference to Spaceships?
The few searches I have done keep referring back to bread. Now if that term is infact how good Bread is. Then why did people learn to make Bread all at a similar time whilst not being connected geographically. That make no sense in the official Earth Tale.
Actually it comes back as
Shem-an-na so far
QuoteThe truly astonishing fact about the enigmatic white powder of high-spin gold and platinum group metals is that it is not actually a new discovery. The ancient Mesopotamians called it shem-an-na and the Egyptians described it as mfkzt (vowels are omitted in the hieroglyph translation), while the Alexandrians venerated it as a gift from Paradise and later chemists such as Nicolas Flamel called it the Philosophers' Stone.
I am going to assume he made an error because from Lawrence Gardiner we get THIS
QuoteThe Shadow of Solomon: The Lost Secret of the Freemasons ...
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1578634040
Laurence Gardner - 2007 - ?Social Science
The point has been made that because gravity determines space-time, then elements ... this magical powder of projection was also called shem-an-na, abbreviated in ... Although attached as a Chapter to the 3rd degree of the Craft, Royal Arch ...
Great information, thank you Zorgon!
I am going with Ezekials wheel as an explanation.
That does not look like a "typical" military shield.
Perhaps Ezekials wheel was some type of both,
a flying craft, and supernatural protection?
Very very interesting!
Awesome Thread, did some googling and found some other cool paintings from him.
(http://i.imgur.com/XEMjSzI.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/7a7JgSI.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/NnI6AmM.jpg)
It almost looks like the guy was obsessed with ufo's.
The first painting clearly shows that the "stars" where painted as if they where spinning.
Quote from: Senduko on August 07, 2015, 04:35:17 PM
Awesome Thread, did some googling and found some other cool paintings from him.
No, those are paintings from different artists showing the same story, Bacchus and Ariadne.
The first was made by Carlo Maratta, the second by Guido Ren and the third is a study by Jzin (http://www.jzinteng.com/studies/studies-titians-bacchus-and-ariadne-by-jzin/) of the original Bachus and Ariadne by Titian (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Titian_Bacchus_and_Ariadne.jpg).
QuoteIt almost looks like the guy was obsessed with ufo's.
The first painting clearly shows that the "stars" where painted as if they where spinning.
One version of the Bachus and Ariadne story says that Bachus found Ariadne, after she was abandoned by Theseus on an island while she slept, and he took the crown from her head and threw it up to the sky, so she could shine among the stars, and the crown became the Corona Borealis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corona_Borealis). In another version Ariadne herself was transformed into the Corona Borealis by Bachus.
Oh I see, did not know it was from 3 different artists, thank you. I found them by reverse searching that one image. So I always got the same painter and these paintings.
But the story itself, I don't know man, sounds pretty spacy to me:D
Quote from: Senduko on August 07, 2015, 09:51:31 PM
But the story itself, I don't know man, sounds pretty spacy to me:D
The ancient Greeks had some strange stories. :)
Quote from: ArMaP on August 07, 2015, 09:40:28 PM
One version of the Bachus and Ariadne story says that Bachus found Ariadne, after she was abandoned by Theseus on an island while she slept, and he took the crown from her head and threw it up to the sky, so she could shine among the stars, and the crown became the Corona Borealis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corona_Borealis). In another version Ariadne herself was transformed into the Corona Borealis by Bachus.
So your saying a "crown" went up into space and became a constellation?
So that is more believable than a UFO?
::)
Like the ' coin story" The God Jupiter sends a shield to win a war from Heaven....
and you cannot see how that is a UFO expressed in terms available to them at that time?
NOTE I said UFO as in UNIDENTIFIED flying object :P
I suppose you could argue that the flying crown was an IFO, same with the flying shiels :P But are you really that desparate to disprove that Aliens were messing around with us in the past and were called "Gods" because they were deemed powerful?
::)
Most likely it was similar to THIS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFrcu0kbKOY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFrcu0kbKOY
I wonder what THIS tribe saw? :P
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-e-v_iPXGeHc/VJFYu2_H20I/AAAAAAAADIY/WERTg-vxrwA/s1600/bep-kororoti.jpg)
Quote from: ArMaP on August 07, 2015, 10:14:09 PM
The ancient Greeks had some strange stories. :)
Well strange stories a lot of times have roots in very strange events
Today the UFO/Alien scene is almost a religion too
Oh wait it IS The RAELIANS
(http://hopetotheend.com/images/raelians.jpg)
I DO love those guys Their women run around naked like the Hippies of the 60's :P
Well you can try to debunk those paintings all you like, the fact is that our ancestors were OBSESSED with glowing objects in their skies :D
UFO 'battle' over Nuremberg, Germany in 1561
Date: April 4,
Location: Nuremberg, Germany(http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/pictures/Nuremberg1561.jpg)
At sunrise on the 14th April 1561, the citizens of Nuremberg beheld "A very frightful spectacle." The sky appeared to fill with cylindrical objects from which red, black, orange and blue white disks and globes emerged. Crosses and tubes resembling cannon barrels also appeared whereupon the objects promptly "began to fight one another." This event is depicted in a famous 16th century woodcut by Hans Glaser.Below are descriptions of the event from various sources:
http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case486.htm
Interesting how those 'motherships" look similar to the NAZI Andromeda Class ships. Was it an earlier visit to Germany of the Alderon Committee? :D
(http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_luna/bigufo.jpg)
(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47brotherthebig/04images/Nazi_Drawings/ANDROMEDA_plan.jpg)
Quote from: zorgon on August 08, 2015, 12:04:58 AM
So your saying a "crown" went up into space and became a constellation?
So that is more believable than a UFO?
Sometimes I think you only have this forum so you can be the its biggest troll. ::)
I didn't say that a crown went up into space and became a constellation, I said that was one of the versions of the Bachus and Ariadne story.
I didn't say that it was more believable than an UFO either.
QuoteLike the ' coin story" The God Jupiter sends a shield to win a war from Heaven....
I missed that part of the "coin story", what story is that? I like stories. :)
Quoteand you cannot see how that is a UFO expressed in terms available to them at that time?
I can only comment if I know the story.
QuoteI suppose you could argue that the flying crown was an IFO, same with the flying shiels :P
You can suppose all you want, but please stop implying I said things I never said.
QuoteBut are you really that desparate to disprove that Aliens were messing around with us in the past and were called "Gods" because they were deemed powerful?
No, that's why I don't say those silly things you talk about as if I had said them.
QuoteI wonder what THIS tribe saw? :P
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-e-v_iPXGeHc/VJFYu2_H20I/AAAAAAAADIY/WERTg-vxrwA/s1600/bep-kororoti.jpg)
Don't forget imagination.
Quote from: zorgon on August 08, 2015, 12:12:14 AM
Well you can try to debunk those paintings all you like, the fact is that our ancestors were OBSESSED with glowing objects in their skies :D
You can try to imply that I am trying to debunk the paintings, that doesn't make it the truth, the truth is that I have been trying to make you understand that in religious art, specifically in the 16th and 17th century, the artists were completely free to do things as they wanted, they had "rules" (I still haven't found the best word for it) that they should follow.
QuoteInteresting how those 'motherships" look similar to the NAZI Andromeda Class ships. Was it an earlier visit to Germany of the Alderon Committee? :D
Or vice-versa.
Quote from: ArMaP on August 08, 2015, 12:24:45 AM
Sometimes I think you only have this forum so you can be the its biggest troll. ::)
How is it TROLLING when I point out the obvious conclusions you seem to be missing?
The OBJECTS no matter what they are or may be are in the sky with references to 'heavenly connections'
QuoteI didn't say that a crown went up into space and became a constellation, I said that was one of the versions of the Bachus and Ariadne story.
I like stories too. The difference between you and I is a matter of interpretation of what the stories mean. You need to stop taking everything so literally... and yes I realize English is not your first language
QuoteI didn't say that it was more believable than an UFO either.
I was asking if it was more believable... and if it is NOT more believable then it could just as easily be a representation of UFO's in the sky told in the understanding of events in that time period... when anything odd happening in the sky HAD to be 'from the gods'
QuoteI missed that part of the "coin story", what story is that? I like stories. :)
I can only comment if I know the story.
From Post #55 on previous page
Although, Dantonio says the object is a shield, he admits that it is still a mystery as to why they are in the sky or coming out of the clouds. He writes:
"One story is that this particular coin is showing Jupiter's Shield falling to Earth to aid Numa Pompilius, the second Roman king. The shield it said led them to victory during desperate times. But even so, it is still interesting that the shield was bestowed from on high. Was there some otherworldly influence rooted in their culture that prompted putting the shield in the sky? Protection or technology from above perhaps? That's still a mystery."
QuoteYou can suppose all you want, but please stop implying I said things I never said.
No, that's why I don't say those silly things you talk about as if I had said them.
As I said you take everything too literally. When I reply I reply based on what you SEEM to be IMPLYING ;)
QuoteDon't forget imagination.
Now why would people in the past be imagining glowing flying things in the skies?
:o
Quote from: zorgon on August 08, 2015, 01:09:21 AM
How is it TROLLING when I point out the obvious conclusions you seem to be missing?
It's not a question of conclusions, obvious or not, that I may or may not miss, it's your persistence in writing things as if they were answers to things I said when I said no such things, as if you are trying to make people think that I did say those things I did not say.
QuoteThe OBJECTS no matter what they are or may be are in the sky with references to 'heavenly connections'
So what? The discussion was never about the objects being there or not, with or without references to "heavenly connections", as, in this thread, the discussion started because you said that a glory "seems to be a glowing flying object or a portal" and I said that it's suppose to be only the light, not an object.
When I talked about the "rules" of religious paintings you said that "people describe what they see in the sky based on what is popular at the time", as you have said in other occasions, as if the paintings were an exact description of what the people in biblical times described and ignoring both the artist's interpretation and the "rules" in use at the time the paintings were made.
I have only tried to point that paintings made in the 16th and 17th century, being the result of the artist's (and of those paying for the paintings) and of the thoughts of the time, should not be seen as an exact representation of what happened hundreds of years before.
If we include wrong data in the whole body of data we use to create a theory and eventually reach a conclusion, how can we be sure that our theory and/or conclusion is correct? We should first separate the wheat from the chaff, that's just what I have been trying to do.
QuoteI like stories too. The difference between you and I is a matter of interpretation of what the stories mean.
In some cases, in this thread you have only assumed what my interpretation is, as I haven't presented it.
QuoteYou need to stop taking everything so literally... and yes I realize English is not your first language
That's true, I do tend to take things literally, in any language. ;D
But that's probably because if we don't take things literally then we can take them in any other way possible, otherwise we are favouring one or two possibilities and ignoring all the others.
QuoteI was asking if it was more believable... and if it is NOT more believable then it could just as easily be a representation of UFO's in the sky told in the understanding of events in that time period... when anything odd happening in the sky HAD to be 'from the gods'
But I wasn't talking about it being believable or not, I was only presenting the story in which those paintings were based. That's that change of subject between my posts and the answers I get that are making me tired of posting here, almost half of my posts these days are just pointing that I wasn't talking about what was implied in what is supposed to be an answer to my post.
QuoteFrom Post #55 on previous page
Although, Dantonio says the object is a shield, he admits that it is still a mystery as to why they are in the sky or coming out of the clouds. He writes:
"One story is that this particular coin is showing Jupiter's Shield falling to Earth to aid Numa Pompilius, the second Roman king. The shield it said led them to victory during desperate times. But even so, it is still interesting that the shield was bestowed from on high. Was there some otherworldly influence rooted in their culture that prompted putting the shield in the sky? Protection or technology from above perhaps? That's still a mystery."
Thanks. :)
QuoteAs I said you take everything too literally. When I reply I reply based on what you SEEM to be IMPLYING ;)
I have said it before, I don't imply things, what I have to say I say it, even if it creates problems when the other person reads/ears it, as it happened today when my boss asked me if I think he is rancorous and I said "yes".
QuoteNow why would people in the past be imagining glowing flying things in the skies?
:o
My comment about imagination was in relation to the "I wonder what THIS tribe saw?", I even included the photo, so why are talking about "glowing flying things in the skies"? This is a good example of what I have said above, I write about something and get an answer about something else. :(
Yes, often higher rez version can give us further insight into what was meant to be depicted -
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/A51Watcher/0102_zpssm8roeh6.jpg)
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/A51Watcher/0103_zpshvaol2rq.jpg)
It has been said that this is supposed to be a Cardinal's hat.
Ok I can buy that.
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/A51Watcher/Madonna_PalVecchio_Past_Nubex_zpseshoy1d5.jpg)
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/A51Watcher/Madonna_PalVecchio_Pastore_zpsjxefeyo7.jpg)
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/A51Watcher/Madonna_PalVecchio_nube_p_zpsictjbgcm.jpg)
Crap cloud drawn by an apprentice with bright beams of light coming out all sides?
Not buyin it.
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/A51Watcher/Annunciazione%20by%20Carlo%20Crivelli_zpssp8pno7k.jpg)
Mary gettin the blue beam to the head from a UFO (excuse me gold beam), and then next thing she knows, bingo she's pregnant. (Now where have I heard THAT story before? ::) )
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/A51Watcher/Crivelli_Angeli_zpslclo2eld.jpg)
Nice cloud though.
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/A51Watcher/Gelder_hr_zpsabcgnksg.jpg)
Baptism of Jesus performed by John The Baptist of course.
Pilots of this cloud have the beams on once again.
8)
A main point being overlooked in this discussion is that in much ancient art from Egyptian, religious and secret cult imagery, is that it presents one image to the masses, and yet quite another to initiates.
Nice work Watcher.
It's not something you were discussing, but would somebody mind educating me on the sun symbol depicted at the bottom of A51's 3rd posted image in the post above this? I'm still trying to get my head around the sun worshipping cults... Somebody told me the other day that the sun is a metaphor,and it's not the actual sun they are worshipping.. Not knowing the answers to this stuff is really starting to hurt my head... I'm in permanent dissonace.
ArMaP, to put it real simple, why are all these clouds depicted as 'alien' ufo's?
I don't even want aliens to be real, I've been working on Dot Mil hypotheses (spelling), but ignore the facts I can't.
The sun symbol is depicted on Mary's robe in that picture -
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/A51Watcher/Madonna_PalVecchio_zpsqong3ifw.jpg)
in the upper left of the above picture we see -
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/A51Watcher/Madonna_PalVecchio_Stella_zpsynokwzwt.jpg)
...which could be related, but in terms of this painting it is a clear indication that this is the sun in the upper left and what we see in the upper right is clearly NOT to be misinterpreted as the sun even though it is shining brightly.
... and in other depictions as well -
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/A51Watcher/Botticelli_Madonna_Libro_zpsrdtybw3w.jpg)
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/A51Watcher/Madonna_part_stelle_zpsdf2fszbr.jpg)
But to my knowledge there is no 'official' explanation for what it represents.
Thanks.
Now I'm wondering what all those squiggly things are floating beneath the sun...
I'm sure I read something to do with them the other day.. Humm dumm.
Well to my eye there are 12 of them around the sun.
Representation of advanced knowledge for initiates?
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/A51Watcher/Image1_zpsb8j9syj3.png)
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/A51Watcher/Image4_zpsn2yaclft.png)
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/A51Watcher/beaune_r1_zpsqoxhsufi.jpg)
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l595/A51Watcher/Image5_zpscceb82ue.png)
Quote from: zorgon on August 08, 2015, 12:04:58 AM
So your saying a "crown" went up into space and became a constellation?
So that is more believable than a UFO?
::)
Like the ' coin story" The God Jupiter sends a shield to win a war from Heaven....
and you cannot see how that is a UFO expressed in terms available to them at that time?
This description is much like the "spy" satellites we send up.
In fact, many of the destinations for these spy satellites
are a "constellation". We really do not know the extent
of the technology sent up there. Thinking of "Star Wars".
Very interesting!
Quote from: Sinny on August 08, 2015, 04:28:13 AM
Thanks.
Now I'm wondering what all those squiggly things are floating beneath the sun...
I'm sure I read something to do with them the other day.. Humm dumm.
Wasn't there a theory that the sun was a portal? To me it looks like they are flying towards the sun, not away from it.
Quote from: Sinny on August 08, 2015, 03:20:51 AM
ArMaP, to put it real simple, why are all these clouds depicted as 'alien' ufo's?
I don't see any cloud represented as an "alien UFO" (whatever that may mean), I see either clouds or things that are supposed to represent things like the annunciation, the holly spirit, etc., things that do not have (as far as I know) a specific physical definition.
QuoteI don't even want aliens to be real, I've been working on Dot Mil hypotheses (spelling), but ignore the facts I can't.
If you can't ignore the facts then do not ignore the fact that religious art is full of symbolisms specific to it, that's why there are people that spend all their lives studying this subject.
Quote from: A51Watcher on August 08, 2015, 02:33:20 AM
A main point being overlooked in this discussion is that in much ancient art from Egyptian, religious and secret cult imagery, is that it presents one image to the masses, and yet quite another to initiates.
That's what I have been trying to say about these paintings, that those "UFOs" have a meaning that people that study art history know but that, to those that do not studied it, may look like other things, based on the influences we get from today's society.
Quote from: Sinny on August 08, 2015, 04:28:13 AM
Now I'm wondering what all those squiggly things are floating beneath the sun...
I'm sure I read something to do with them the other day.. Humm dumm.
After a little search, this is what I found:
Quote2. The STAR. This attribute, often embroidered in front of the veil of the Virgin, or on the right shoulder of her blue mantle, has become almost as a badge from which several well-known pictures derive their title, "La Madonna della Stella." It is, in the first place, an attribute alluding to the most beautiful and expressive of her many titles : " Stella Maris," Star of the Sea, which is one interpretation of her Jewish name, Miriam ; but she is also " Stella Jacobi," the Star of Jacob ; " Stella Matutina," the Morning Star ; " Stella non Erratica," the Fixed Star. When, instead of the single star on her veil or mantle, she has the crown of twelve stars, the allusion is to the text of the Apocalypse already quoted, and the number of stars is in allusion to the number of the Apostles.'
Source (http://www.oldandsold.com/articles22/madonna-2.shtml)
I've found other sources saying more or less the same thing.
Quote from: ArMaP on August 08, 2015, 12:26:47 PM
I don't see any cloud represented as an "alien UFO" (whatever that may mean), I see either clouds or things that are supposed to represent things like the annunciation, the holly spirit, etc., things that do not have (as far as I know) a specific physical definition.
If you can't ignore the facts then do not ignore the fact that religious art is full of symbolisms specific to it, that's why there are people that spend all their lives studying this subject.
You just made me facepalm!!!
Come on ArMaP, these pics look like *modern* 'Alien UFO's', for you to deny it is NOT you being 'unbiased' !!!!
Since when were 'clouds' depicted as floating 'metal looking' contraptions??v
Quote from: A51Watcher on August 08, 2015, 04:31:47 AM
Well to my eye there are 12 of them around the sun.
Representation of advanced knowledge for initiates?
12 'things' circling the sun... Contellations???
Quote from: Sinny on August 08, 2015, 03:50:52 PM
Since when were 'clouds' depicted as floating 'metal looking' contraptions??v
Look at what I wrote: I don't see any cloud represented as an "alien UFO".
That means that I don't see any cloud depicted as a "floating 'metal looking' contraption", I see clouds as clouds and other objects as things that are not clouds.
I think I will start writing in Portuguese, as, apparently, nobody understands my English in this thread. ::)
Quote from: Sinny on August 08, 2015, 03:57:06 PM
12 'things' circling the sun... Contellations???
I suppose you didn't see my post. ::)
Quote from: Sinny on August 08, 2015, 03:57:06 PM
12 'things' circling the sun... Contellations???
Perhaps Velikovsky and Sitchin's 12th planet?
"the influences we get from today's society" may give us perspective on what the advanced initiate view was, represented in the paintings.
ya know sometimes when I read answers I think you guys are all playin at messin with each others brain..i really do
how about this
religious painting
12 stars - twelve apostles
sun - son of god..
try the kiss method of interpretation
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRrV0dvVvpxBJQWD6kd6mfnd2uTGtiKpTt1vaAH0VLkSjLuj_a8)
Quote from: space otter on August 08, 2015, 11:07:13 PM
ya know sometimes when I read answers I think you guys are all playin at messin with each others brain..i really do
how about this
religious painting
12 stars - twelve apostles
sun - son of god..
try the kiss method of interpretation
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRrV0dvVvpxBJQWD6kd6mfnd2uTGtiKpTt1vaAH0VLkSjLuj_a8)
In the time frame those paintings depict, Jesus had no apostles.
Quote from: A51Watcher on August 09, 2015, 12:16:25 AM
At the time those paintings depict, Jesus had no apostles.
That's what I have been saying, the paintings are not supposed to show things as they happened (if they really happened as told), they represent what the people paying for the paintings wanted to see, the interpretation of the events that was accepted as being the right one at the time the paintings were made.
It's the same thing as those paintings that show people dressed as if Jesus lived in Europe during the Renaissance instead of Judea 2000 years ago, they show what people wanted to see at the time the paintings were made.
Quote from: ArMaP on August 09, 2015, 12:22:37 AM
It's the same thing as those paintings that show people dressed as if Jesus lived in Europe during the Renaissance instead of Judea 2000 years ago, they show what people wanted to see at the time the paintings were made.
Not all paintings show that, many depict Judea 2000 years ago.
The one common thread they DO all have in common is UFO's in the sky.
The people paying for the paintings all wanted to have that.
Quote from: A51Watcher on August 09, 2015, 12:32:21 AM
Not all paintings show that, many depict Judea 2000 years ago.
Any of the paintings posted on this thread are included in that category?
QuoteThe one common thread they DO all have in common is UFO's in the sky.
Which ones, the ones that represent Judea as it was 2000 years ago or the others? The others do not show UFOs because they were supposed to be identified.
QuoteThe people paying for the paintings all wanted to have that.
Sure, as that was the way of representing those things.
Motive for them all wanting that?
It is reasonable to assume that by that time, everyone was aware and had heard of the 'star' that went ahead of the wise men and stopped over the place where Jesus had been born.
Now to our uneducated ancestors, this may have appeared as an act of God, but these days we do not attribute technology with acts of God.
Only our ancestors with no contact with technology would make such an assumption.
Quote from: A51Watcher on August 09, 2015, 12:44:15 AM
Now to our uneducated ancestors, this may have appeared as an act of God, but these days we do not attribute technology with acts of God.
Why couldn't it be an act of God and today's interpretation is the wrong one?
Quote from: ArMaP on August 09, 2015, 12:48:15 AM
Why couldn't it be an act of God and today's interpretation is the wrong one?
Because superstition is a house of cards for a foundation of premise.
Quote from: A51Watcher on August 09, 2015, 12:58:18 AM
Because superstition is a house of cards for a foundation of premise.
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by that. :(
In the time frame those paintings depict, Jesus had no apostles.
but in the time frame those paintings were done they did know about the apostles
:P
and artists of any variety always put their own spin on it..it's theirs even if paid for as a request or as a specific commision...
and now we are doing the same by putting a spin on it of our own
Quote from: space otter on August 09, 2015, 01:40:37 AM
In the time frame those paintings depict, Jesus had no apostles.
but in the time frame those paintings were done they did know about the apostles
:P
and artists of any variety always put their own spin on it..it's theirs even if paid for as a request or as a specific commision...
and now we are doing the same by putting a spin on it of our own
I have no dog in the fight as to the correct meaning of the squigly things next to the sun, no reason to promote one idea over another.
But giving Mary the appearance of being clairvoyant as to future events would be equal to witchcraft no?
And what about the other depictions only showing 3 squigleys, what happened to the rest of the apostles?
Quote from: ArMaP on August 09, 2015, 12:59:40 AM
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by that. :(
Submitting a explanation based on superstition is like quicksand and will sink.
hey 51
I was only speaking about stars around the sun..sorry if you thought anything else.. I came in late and should have sat on my fingers instead of typing...
but folks looking at art are like folks observing a wreck..no one sees the same thing
Quote from: A51Watcher on August 09, 2015, 03:08:39 AM
And what about the other depictions only showing 3 squigleys, what happened to the rest of the apostles?
I thought I had posted the explanation for that, but I forgot. Here's what it means:
QuoteIn many icons, Mary's perpetual virginity is signified by three stars that appear on her left, her right, and above her or on her head, which represent her virginity before, during and after giving birth.[32][33]
Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_virginity_of_Mary)
Quote from: A51Watcher on August 09, 2015, 03:12:30 AM
Submitting a explanation based on superstition is like quicksand and will sink.
Thanks, I understand it now. :)
Quote from: ArMaP on August 08, 2015, 04:36:44 PM
I suppose you didn't see my post. ::)
Ha, I actually didn't, but even if I did that shouldn't stop me exploring alternatives.
Quote from: space otter on August 08, 2015, 11:07:13 PM
ya know sometimes when I read answers I think you guys are all playin at messin with each others brain..i really do
how about this
religious painting
12 stars - twelve apostles
sun - son of god..
try the kiss method of interpretation
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRrV0dvVvpxBJQWD6kd6mfnd2uTGtiKpTt1vaAH0VLkSjLuj_a8)
Love this post.
Quote from: Sinny on August 09, 2015, 08:15:58 PM
Ha, I actually didn't, but even if I did that shouldn't stop me exploring alternatives.
I agree, but I also think you shouldn't ignore the explanations given by the people that study this subject.
Quote from: ArMaP on August 08, 2015, 02:30:27 AM
So what? The discussion was never about the objects being there or not, with or without references to "heavenly connections", as, in this thread, the discussion started because you said that a glory "seems to be a glowing flying object or a portal" and I said that it's suppose to be only the light, not an object.
That is the problem, because that is EXACTLY what this thread is about in my mind. Showing that there were strange unxplainable things in the skies in the past just like there are today. My POINT is that back in those days they viewed and interpreted these mysterious objects from a religious point of view... the symbolism you speak of in MY opinion was created from observation, and the religion was created from a misinterpretation of events at the time
Just like this example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFrcu0kbKOY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFrcu0kbKOY
QuoteWhen I talked about the "rules" of religious paintings you said that "people describe what they see in the sky based on what is popular at the time", as you have said in other occasions, as if the paintings were an exact description of what the people in biblical times described and ignoring both the artist's interpretation and the "rules" in use at the time the paintings were made.
As I keep saying those 'rules' where invented by people who created a false religion based on past observation and misinterpretation of real events, just like today people see what many believe to be Plasma Orbs or even Ball Lightning :P and assume they MUST be Aliens Spaceships...
I fail to grasp how you cannot see the correllation, but we will just have to agree to disagree.
Quote from: ArMaP on August 09, 2015, 12:48:15 AM
Why couldn't it be an act of God and today's interpretation is the wrong one?
Because that would presuppose that that particular God is in fact real. Since I and many others consider that god a MYTH based on misinterpretation of observed events creating a religion based on false interpretations like the above video.
The gods of India on the other hand used Mercury Vapor Flying Machines so why would I not consider THERE version as more accurate?
At least the Vedic scriptures are more in keeping with modern thoughts on UFO's and Atomic explosions :D
So as A51 said to argue from the point of a mythological religion that cannot be proven is illogical
QuoteI have only tried to point that paintings made in the 16th and 17th century, being the result of the artist's (and of those paying for the paintings) and of the thoughts of the time, should not be seen as an exact representation of what happened hundreds of years before.
I agree but I see it as the thoughts of the time were about mysterious glowing objects flying about the skies and they made rules based on a secular point of view as to what those objects were. A point of view I believe was incorrect. Point is they still showed mysterious glowing objects in the sky, no matter what they THOUGHT they were
QuoteIn some cases, in this thread you have only assumed what my interpretation is, as I haven't presented it.
I am only able to respond to what you actually say, not what you haven't presented yet :P
QuoteBut that's probably because if we don't take things literally then we can take them in any other way possible, otherwise we are favouring one or two possibilities and ignoring all the others.
I disagree. First of all in regards to the Bible the way it is written it is easy to make many interpretations that fit the text, and this has been done even in the various religious splinter sects. But everyone that looks into alternative and conspiracy related topics is familiar with the term READ BETWEEN THE LINES.
If we all took everything literally, we would all be making main stream thinkers very happy. Dr Joe Resnick once wrote to me with this comment:
Ron,
Thanks for the kind words and sharing the stories about 'spray-on'.
I had a thought while finishing reading your note, re Pegasus, and your use of 'quotes'.
My Good Man...there comes a time when the 'student becomes the Master...and no longer needs the hand of Mentor. The Mentor provides the foundation from which the student builds and springs to new levels of discovery not contemplated by the Mentor: This is the natural order of things (time, life and learning)' <excerpted from my Master's Dissertation>. For example, the child of today has access to and internalizes more scientific information (by the age of 12 years) than DesCartes or Gallileo or even the Great Leonardo could ever have even dreamed! With technology advancing at the rate of approximately twenty years per month bu the time you and I walk off this planet the human knowledge base will have increased by a factor of five thousand years in the course of our short life time's.
In essence with regard to your role in PG...your participation within makes you a 'expert' in many areas not commonly found in the general population and this fact grants you certain 'license' to make statement, advance new and avante' guarde theories, etc. So...don't be shy or intimidated by men with (or from) 'alphabets' attached to their names. To prove the accuracy of my assertion just ask yourself: "If these guys know so much...why in the world are they asking me <the questions>"? The answer is obvious (a Blind Man could 'see' the answer in a second)...you 'know' something that they don't know!
I'm sitting at my kitchen table this morning enjoying a coffee, a smoke, writing this note to you and I have such a feeling of 'gentile' and 'peace' that I wanted to leave you with this thought.
All of this UFO-stuff, clandestine genre, secrecy, or whether or not ET's exist...or time travel is a reality, is confounding to many. Each deals with these issues in their own way...sort of like 'faith' in a diety, or 'Santa' or the 'Easter Bunny' (abstract concepts, granted), or the Pyramids (of Egypt and Central America)...both undeniably 'real' (yet not fully understood).
With that said let me leave you with this thought for your consideration: There are 'silent heroes'...men and women who work very hard to do things to protect humanity and all sentient beings (regardless of time-space). Such individuals walk among us, daily, and are quite unbeknown. That <fact> too, could be considered to fall within the 'natural order' of things.
Have a great week!
Joe
Reading 'between the lines' is what has gotten me all the contacts and insider information since I started at ATS and met John. It is that ability to find 'hidden truths' in what is not said, but implied that have got me where I am today. If I only took things literally, there would be nothing to research or follow up on.
So in your world of skepticism, taking things literally may work for you but has it occured to you that it may be the reason your not 'getting it'?
::)
QuoteBut I wasn't talking about it being believable or not, I was only presenting the story in which those paintings were based. That's that change of subject between my posts and the answers I get that are making me tired of posting here, almost half of my posts these days are just pointing that I wasn't talking about what was implied in what is supposed to be an answer to my post.
I am pretty certain we here all get what your making a point of... its just that we don't agree with your assessment
QuoteMy comment about imagination was in relation to the "I wonder what THIS tribe saw?", I even included the photo, so why are talking about "glowing flying things in the skies"?
Because "Glowing Flying Objects in the sky" is the purpose of this thread :P That is why it is in the UFO section :P
Quote from: zorgon on August 09, 2015, 10:04:00 PM
My POINT is that back in those days they viewed and interpreted these mysterious objects from a religious point of view... the symbolism you speak of in MY opinion was created from observation, and the religion was created from a misinterpretation of events at the time
"Back in those days"? Which ones, the days of the events or the days when the paintings were made?
QuoteAs I keep saying those 'rules' where invented by people who created a false religion based on past observation and misinterpretation of real events, just like today people see what many believe to be Plasma Orbs or even Ball Lightning :P and assume they MUST be Aliens Spaceships...
The "rules" used on the paintings were invented by the people that applied the religion (false or not, it doesn't matter) at the time the paintings were made or soon before that.
I don't know if their interpretation was right or wrong, I was only saying that the artists had to follow those rules or risk not getting paid (or worse).
QuoteI fail to grasp how you cannot see the correllation, but we will just have to agree to disagree.
I think the problem is, as usual, a lack of definition about what we are talking. Things like "those days", for example, have different meanings when we are talking about paintings from the 15th century representing scenes from Biblical times.
QuoteBecause that would presuppose that that particular God is in fact real. Since I and many others consider that god a MYTH based on misinterpretation of observed events creating a religion based on false interpretations like the above video.
Well, I'm an atheist myself, but that doesn't mean that I don't think that I may be wrong, so I never try to see things as if my opinion is better than anyone else's opinion, so, to be honest to myself, I have to admit the possibility of "acts of god(s)".
QuoteThe gods of India on the other hand used Mercury Vapor Flying Machines so why would I not consider THERE version as more accurate?
Is that version incompatible with the other one?
QuoteAt least the Vedic scriptures are more in keeping with modern thoughts on UFO's and Atomic explosions :D
That's just an interpretation of today's people.
QuoteSo as A51 said to argue from the point of a mythological religion that cannot be proven is illogical
Can alien UFOs be proved today?
QuoteI agree but I see it as the thoughts of the time were about mysterious glowing objects flying about the skies and they made rules based on a secular point of view as to what those objects were.
The "rules" were based on the interpretation of the religious writings, that's why they changed according to the who was the most dominant religious ideology of the time. Savonarola was one of the people that strongly influenced the society of the time and had a direct impact in art.
QuoteI am only able to respond to what you actually say, not what you haven't presented yet :P
Yes, but in that case you just had to ask instead of assume. :)
QuoteBut everyone that looks into alternative and conspiracy related topics is familiar with the term READ BETWEEN THE LINES.
That's why we have so many "sects" in the conspiracy scene.
QuoteReading 'between the lines' is what has gotten me all the contacts and insider information since I started at ATS and met John. It is that ability to find 'hidden truths' in what is not said, but implied that have got me where I am today.
And where's that, in regards to truth about these subjects?
QuoteIf I only took things literally, there would be nothing to research or follow up on.
There would still be, but with less ramifications, which could be good or bad.
QuoteSo in your world of skepticism, taking things literally may work for you but has it occured to you that it may be the reason your not 'getting it'?
What am I not "getting"?
QuoteI am pretty certain we here all get what your making a point of... its just that we don't agree with your assessment
Then say so, be clear about it, we already have enough misunderstandings (something I hate, as they are a huge source of problems and lost time) as it is.
QuoteBecause "Glowing Flying Objects in the sky" is the purpose of this thread :P That is why it is in the UFO section :P
But that was not what I was answering to, I was specifically answering that part of your post related to the photo you posted, and that was not a glowing object in the sky. It's this change of subject according to what suits you that I find saddening in what was supposed to be a serious research forum. :(
ArMaP,
Okay please tell me why the symbolism includes flying metal contraptions and how you would interpret these flying metal contraptions and where you think these artists might have got the inspiration to paint flying metal contraptions
Quote from: space otter on August 09, 2015, 04:03:51 AM
hey 51
I was only speaking about stars around the sun..sorry if you thought anything else.. I came in late and should have sat on my fingers instead of typing...
but folks looking at art are like folks observing a wreck..no one sees the same thing
That's a good point.
But no you should not have sat on your fingers. Your opinions are always welcome as you have shown yourself to be honest and unbiased in all discussions.
Quote from: Sinny on August 10, 2015, 02:30:54 AM
Okay please tell me why the symbolism includes flying metal contraptions and how you would interpret these flying metal contraptions and where you think these artists might have got the inspiration to paint flying metal contraptions
I don't know why the symbolism includes what you call "flying metal contraptions", as I said several times I didn't study art history, I only know that it exists and covers these topics.
To tell you how I would interpret those flying metal contraptions you must show me which ones you are talking about, so I can be sure we are talking about the same thing.
I don't know where the artists got their inspiration or even if the way those things were painted were a result of their inspiration or, like the three stars, were supposed to be drawn like that.
Right, well I know a lost cause when I see one.
Who are you aand what have you done with ArMaP, it's irrelevant now, don't bother answering.
:)
Quote from: ArMaP on August 10, 2015, 01:23:16 PM
I don't know where the artists got their inspiration or even if the way those things were painted were a result of their inspiration or, like the three stars, were supposed to be drawn like that.
Mind if I ask, lets all agree that painters did get inspired by the stuff they saw in real life, and even the "rules" that dictate a style or artform are inspired by objects/persons/clothing of that time.
With this in mind, don't you agree that these disks/metal orbs are serious out of place?
P.s I haven't JUST decided to label them 'flying metal contraptions', that's what mine eye's do see. I'm describing them ::)
ArMaP can't see the wood for the tree's.
He's being an 'ostrich who like to play with words'.
Quote from: Senduko on August 10, 2015, 03:28:21 PM
Mind if I ask, lets all agree that painters did get inspired by the stuff they saw in real life, and even the "rules" that dictate a style or artform are inspired by objects/persons/clothing of that time.
With this in mind, don't you agree that these disks/metal orbs are serious out of place?
Flying disks and metal orbs? Yes, they are out of place on a renaissance painting.
Quote from: Sinny on August 10, 2015, 04:13:36 PM
P.s I haven't JUST decided to label them 'flying metal contraptions', that's what mine eye's do see. I'm describing them ::)
Well, that's not what my eyes see, that's why I need you to tell me what you see as "flying metal contraptions".
QuoteArMaP can't see the wood for the tree's.
He's being an 'ostrich who like to play with words'.
No, I just want to be sure what we're talking about, it's too easy to have several people talking each one of a specific case and nobody understands that's the case, and, because of that, they cannot reach any conclusion.
And that's exactly to avoid the plays with words, I need a base reference, clear definitions, so when someone talks about "metal spheres" (for example) I can know exactly what that person means.
I think flying metal contraptions is a fine description...perhaps of the archetypical variety.
Did the artists bring back some ingrained visual reference, or was it more of an inventive nature, as we see in Da Vinci drawings?
Things painted by people who never even remotely saw anything in the sky quite like them tell me they were either painted by a person who had visions of archetypical forms, a forward thinking artist, or someone who saw something that was still being seen in the sky in the 14-17th centuries that might have seemed far too common for a brainwashed laity.
And that something looks like a flying contraption to me. :)
Cheers!
From 'Wonders in the Sky' - by Jacques Vallee and Chris Aubeck
(http://dailygrail.com/sites/dailygrail.com/files/imagecache/BlogImage-Large/storyimages/golden-orbs.jpg)
Golden Orbs from 73BCE
Jacobs Heinrich Elbfas 1636
Astral Phenomena in the Sky Over Stockholm
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-I8i9BPv4k5M/VyTC1QthVWI/AAAAAAAAfW0/9pPfKnDTlSIDfFAaSqmD9p_84P6Hc37aA/w506-h762/pheno45.jpg)
?