Pegasus Research Consortium

Stephen Fry Annihilates God

Ask... and Ye shall receive (an answer)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-suvkwNYSQo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-suvkwNYSQo

Yea Mr Fry is one extremely cool and eloquent dude.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L1xvdZMC10

   " I tried being Catholic once, I just couldn't muster enough prejudice and hate "

     

Quote from: zorgon on August 11, 2015, 09:07:42 AM
Stephen Fry Annihilates God

No, not at all! Mr. Fry simply doesn't understand that there is much difference in what God created, and what man's sinful disobedience allowed/allows satan to do. God is not the author of sickness, disease and death, but rather all such comes directly from satan and his influence to the world. And the fact that God's man Adam did what he did, all that was Adam's became satan's, which included the Earth and all that was/is here.

But, God's sacrifice of his Son has made a way for all of that to be changed/overcome, and one day soon, even "DEATH will be swallowed up in victory" (1 Cor 15-54) :)

Quote from: rdunk on August 11, 2015, 11:34:07 PM
No, not at all! Mr. Fry simply doesn't understand that there is much difference in what God created, and what man's sinful disobedience allowed/allows satan to do.

Who created man? Who created Satan?

QuoteWho created man? Who created Satan?

really you have to ask this...

humans created both  because they were and mostly are unable to take responsiblity for themselves and their messes..
it's called
pass the buck..
wasn't me
god or satan will take care of it...
they'll get what they deserve
karma

I know I shouldn't but here goes.

God created man and Satan. God made all things. Pretty easy to understand.

Ok now I've done it! :-X

Quote from: rdunk on August 11, 2015, 11:34:07 PM
God is not the author of sickness, disease and death, but rather all such comes directly from satan and his influence to the world.

Ah! So Satan created mosquitoes an earwigs? Satan creates Earthquakes and Tsunamis? 

Who was it that sent the plague that took out Egypt's First Born?

Exodus 11

11 Now the Lord had said to Moses, "I will bring one more plague on Pharaoh and on Egypt. After that, he will let you go from here, and when he does, he will drive you out completely. 2 Tell the people that men and women alike are to ask their neighbors for articles of silver and gold." 3 (The Lord made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people, and Moses himself was highly regarded in Egypt by Pharaoh's officials and by the people.)

4 So Moses said, "This is what the Lord says: 'About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. 5 Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the female slave, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well.

Seems pretty straight forward there... easy to understand...  The LORD not Satan told them to collect gold and silver from the neighbors while they were still friendly and then He would wipe out all the first born, even of innocent cattle.

I think that one makes Fry's point dontcha think?

Quote from: Sgt.Rocknroll on August 12, 2015, 03:23:38 AM
I know I shouldn't but here goes.

Jesus said: "Resist Temptation!" :P  (or something like that :P

QuoteGod created man and Satan.

Then why did God need an ARMY to defeat Satan?  Just wondering :D

QuoteGod made all things.

Except... a boulder bigger than he can lift...  Tough on that :P

QuotePretty easy to understand.

Not really, no, because there are other books that have different versions ;) and all those riddles and parables are so confusing

QuoteOk now I've done it! :-X

Temptation is a hard Master :P

Quote from: space otter on August 12, 2015, 12:08:37 AM
they'll get what they deserve
karma

KARMA   yes Yess

(https://pdsinger.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/bravo.jpg)

"Who was it that sent the plague that took out Egypt's First Born"?

Answer - the same one that brought the flood of Noah's time,and killed every human and animal that that breathed air, except for those that were on the Ark! Of course, the "Ark" itself was simply a shadow of Jesus that was to come, and for what he would do for man!! †

So you agree that your God gets a little bit over zealous when he throws a Hissy fit and just wipes out everything in site. Yes?

Quote from: zorgon on August 12, 2015, 03:52:21 AM
So you agree that your God gets a little bit over zealous when he throws a Hissy fit and just wipes out everything in site. Yes?

No!! NOT! The one God of this Universe can and does do as he pleases! I would not even think about questioning His actions, although they are always very interesting. He does know the end of all from the beginning, and his plan will prevail as is detailed his Word - The Holy Bible, from the which you above prior quoted the scriptures from the book of Exodus.  :)

Quote from: rdunk on August 12, 2015, 06:24:16 AM
I would not even think about questioning His actions,

Hmmmm   Then why were we given brains to think with, if not to question? Could have just left us as Monkeys

To contemplate the actual complexities of life and death, and the entire journey in between would take a brain with more computing power than we are yet to recognise.
An easier option is to lay the reasons and results at the hands of an invisible mythical deity. The deity changes slightly  throughout the chronological and geographical world, and simply takes on the cultural ethics and mores to suit its current time or place.
God is a simple release valve if you will.

God is the esoteric knott in the very real balloon.
Elvis

I read years ago that the gnostics felt humans were not capable of understanding what GOD is

and I think there may be gnostics here who don't realize they are fitting into the gnostic definition

interesting, huh..



http://gnosis.org/gnintro.htm

The Gnostic World View:
A Brief Summary of Gnosticism




GNOSTICISM IS THE TEACHING based on Gnosis, the knowledge of transcendence arrived at by way of interior, intuitive means. Although Gnosticism thus rests on personal religious experience, it is a mistake to assume all such experience results in Gnostic recognitions. It is nearer the truth to say that Gnosticism expresses a specific religious experience, an experience that does not lend itself to the language of theology or philosophy, but which is instead closely affinitized to, and expresses itself through, the medium of myth. Indeed, one finds that most Gnostic scriptures take the forms of myths. The term "myth" should not here be taken to mean "stories that are not true", but rather, that the truths embodied in these myths are of a different order from the dogmas of theology or the statements of philosophy.

In the following summary, we will attempt to encapsulate in prose what the Gnostic myths express in their distinctively poetic and imaginative language.


The Cosmos

All religious traditions acknowledge that the world is imperfect. Where they differ is in the explanations which they offer to account for this imperfection and in what they suggest might be done about it. Gnostics have their own -- perhaps quite startling -- view of these matters: they hold that the world is flawed because it was created in a flawed manner.

Like Buddhism, Gnosticism begins with the fundamental recognition that earthly life is filled with suffering. In order to nourish themselves, all forms of life consume each other, thereby visiting pain, fear, and death upon one another (even herbivorous animals live by destroying the life of plants). In addition, so-called natural catastrophes -- earthquakes, floods, fires, drought, volcanic eruptions -- bring further suffering and death in their wake. Human beings, with their complex physiology and psychology, are aware not only of these painful features of earthly existence. They also suffer from the frequent recognition that they are strangers living in a world that is flawed and absurd.

Many religions advocate that humans are to be blamed for the imperfections of the world. Supporting this view, they interpret the Genesis myth as declaring that transgressions committed by the first human pair brought about a "fall" of creation resulting in the present corrupt state of the world. Gnostics respond that this interpretation of the myth is false. The blame for the world's failings lies not with humans, but with the creator. Since -- especially in the monotheistic religions -- the creator is God, this Gnostic position appears blasphemous, and is often viewed with dismay even by non-believers.

Ways of evading the recognition of the flawed creation and its flawed creator have been devised over and over, but none of these arguments have impressed Gnostics. The ancient Greeks, especially the Platonists, advised people to look to the harmony of the universe, so that by venerating its grandeur they might forget their immediate afflictions. But since this harmony still contains the cruel flaws, forlornness and alienation of existence, this advice is considered of little value by Gnostics. Nor is the Eastern idea of Karma regarded by Gnostics as an adequate explanation of creation's imperfection and suffering. Karma at best can only explain how the chain of suffering and imperfection works. It does not inform us in the first place why such a sorrowful and malign system should exist.

Once the initial shock of the "unusual" or "blasphemous" nature of the Gnostic explanation for suffering and imperfection of the world wears off, one may begin to recognize that it is in fact the most sensible of all explanations. To appreciate it fully, however, a familiarity with the Gnostic conception of the Godhead is required, both in its original essence as the True God and in its debased manifestation as the false or creator God.


more at the link:        http://gnosis.org/gnintro.htm

Quote from: space otter on August 12, 2015, 06:35:19 PM

I read years ago that the gnostics felt humans were not capable of understanding what GOD is

and I think there may be gnostics here who don't realize they are fitting into the gnostic definition

interesting, huh..

Simply another fairy-like tale by someone or some group of people that chooses to believe there is no God. There are unlimited ways and reasons that people use to say "I do not believe there is a God", but the end result is usually about the same for most - bash all of those that do believe. It is a bit funny that many of these "unbelievers" do actually develop their own "religion of sorts", on the basis of their own beliefs about everything real and imagined. And that somewhat describes the gist of what is discussed in this brief bit about "gnostic thought", IMO! :)

Quotebut the end result is usually about the same for most - bash all of those that do believe.

Rdunk
please allow me to make one thing very clear.. I was not bashing anyone who has a religion.
I was not bashing your religion or rock's or anyone else's.

I was only commenting that some posting here sounded gnostic without knowing it, and in my too much info way added what they claim.

personally I have not yet  found any religion or belief system that I want to be part of..
I have found good points in most of them but the deal that I have to feel a certain way about those not belong to said group totally turns me off

I  walk this life with honor, giving each I come across space to decide and live their own way
when possible I will reach out to help when ask - sadly I have learnt to wait until ask
I force no views on anyone and only ask that in return
if you find that is fowl.. I nod respectfully in your direction and go on my way

now after having said that in an holier that thou way  ;)
I also have an opinioin (sometimes very strong opinions) and I am not afraid to state it/them
but that is all it is.. an opinion  I do not need any followers  or fights

stepping off my soap box I send you a friendly wave

Quote from: rdunk on August 12, 2015, 08:59:58 PM
Simply another fairy-like tale by someone or some group of people that chooses to believe there is no God.

But there are so many Gods to choose from and every one has supporters that say; "MY God id the only true God...  the rest are fairy Tales!"

QuoteThere are unlimited ways and reasons that people use to say "I do not believe there is a God", but the end result is usually about the same for most - bash all of those that do believe.

Perhaps non believers in YOUR Fairy Tale would not be so ready to Bash :P if those that do believe in your version were not so busy sticking feet in doors to try to convert you :P

"Ye REAP what Ye Sow" comes to mind :P

QuoteIt is a bit funny that many of these "unbelievers" do actually develop their own "religion of sorts", on the basis of their own beliefs about everything real and imagined. And that somewhat describes the gist of what is discussed in this brief bit about "gnostic thought", IMO! :)

HAIL the Mighty GNOSOS!!!  Enter the Temple Here

(http://m1.paperblog.com/i/279/2792602/gnosos-leyenda-del-minotauro-L-2Fe1qU.jpeg)

Well all that said and done... I still like Fry's answer if he did find himself at the Pearly Gates

I say we Vote for Odin!!!

(http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Odin+b+ches+c+by+someone+else_2f7d36_4868484.jpg)

Invocation to Odhinn All-Father

Hail Odhinn, Lord of Asgard,
Warrior and wanderer, valiant and wise,
You to whom all the gods of Asgard look,
Sky Father on the eight-legged steed,
You who traded an eye for wisdom
And ruled a turbulent realm,
Give us the wisdom to accept
The twists and turns of Fate
Even as you surrendered yourself
To the mercies of the Norns.
Protect us, All-Father,
From what harm may come to us.
Lead us through the wilderness
And bring us safely to that great hall
That you reserve only for the brave of spirit.

Praise ODIN!!!  MEAD anyone? :P

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3d/32/bb/3d32bb8447633f5d0e6dc7d971e92c99.jpg)

Space Otter, I did not intentionally mean to imply that you were doing any "bashing" - it was intended as a general statement relative to the general experience of most religions. And of course the religious groups do their part of bashing others too, of those both in and out of religions unfortunately!!

As has been said before, there will be a final chapter to all of this, and then we will all know...................! Of course, some of us do believe that we know already!!:)

Quote from: rdunk on August 13, 2015, 03:25:39 AM
As has been said before, there will be a final chapter to all of this, and then we will all know...................!

Yup When your body is Food for Wyrms ::P

QuoteOf course, some of us do believe that we know already!!:)

On this point... some of us KNOW and no longer require a Fairy Tale belief. THTA is the big difference.

You are welcome to you BELIEF,  but I KNOW what lies ahead for me ;)  Maybe our paths will meet again and I can say "See I told you so" ;)

(http://www.bornagainpagan.com/cartoons/073-believe-in-reincarnation.jpg)

Maybe our paths will meet again and I can say "See I told you so" ;)

LOL! Z, for my part, the "See I told you so" thinking will no longer exist, as that is the way we think today! But, what we have to look forward to is, all of that such will have passed away, and we will have nothing but love for one another. And I certainly hope our (many of us here) paths will cross, and that we are together for all of eternity, in the "New Jerusalem" with Him!! YEA!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote from: rdunk on August 13, 2015, 04:16:12 AM
in the "New Jerusalem" with Him!!

Now see? this is a problem..

WHY would it be New Jerusalem?  Did not the Jews reject Jesus?...

If our would turns out to be virtual, will the creator of it be called God?

There are many ways to look at all of the questions .

If you created a life form and wanted to give them free will and yet wanted only those who ended up displaying what you consider the perfect qualities in the end, knowing that there is no such thing as death and the life span of your creatures being an instant to you, may you now do what the Army does, break them and see what is built, who sustains the pain with honor? (tempered)

What if god and aliens beings or even fallen sons of god have become confused? Why would the sons who fell make the choices they made if perfect? Can a perfect being become imperfect?

What if you built a perfect model complete with life forms that you treasure and love...could the choices they make because you wished them to have free will corrupt your original plan and bring about harmful change including disease and changed balance of species?

Quote from: zorgon on August 13, 2015, 07:51:21 PM
Now see? this is a problem..

WHY would it be New Jerusalem?  Did not the Jews reject Jesus?...

Did not the Jews reject Jesus?...?   Yes, but this is a part of God's overall plan...............even though the Jews for the most part did reject Jesus, God has made a way for the redemption of the Jews near/at the time of the end.

WHY would it be New Jerusalem?........ EVERYTHING on this planet, including the planet, will be destroyed!! This fact is presented in the Bible's book of "The Revelation", wherein St. John the Devine describes all that he saw and heard in a vision on the Lord's day. He presents much in this Book of Revelation about life, and the life to come. In Chapter 21, he tells about "a new heaven and a new Earth", and mentions "the first heaven and the first Earth were passed away, and there was no more sea".

Revelation 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."

And then John goes on to describe this "New Jerusalem" in very much explicit detail in other verses of this chapter.

Quote from: Dyna on August 13, 2015, 08:22:25 PM
If our would turns out to be virtual, will the creator of it be called God?

In the old days of BBS Systems before the internet we called the operators of these boards SysGods :P  Gigas uses the term System Lords like Star Gate does

QuoteThere are many ways to look at all of the questions .

In Tibet... on a sign on a gate to the Potala it reads (translated) "A thousand Monk, a Thousand Religions"  That pretty much covers it :D

QuoteIf you created a life form and wanted to give them free will and yet wanted only those who ended up displaying what you consider the perfect qualities in the end, knowing that there is no such thing as death and the life span of your creatures being an instant to you, may you now do what the Army does, break them and see what is built, who sustains the pain with honor? (tempered)

True but THIS line has always bothered me...

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

That one line to me indicates a group of Aliens who wanted to keep us in the dark. It is also this one passage that fuels the ancient Alien theories... because IF as the Bible Thumpers claim... the words are to be taken literally, there really is no other way to interpret that phrase :P

QuoteWhat if god and aliens beings or even fallen sons of god have become confused? Why would the sons who fell make the choices they made if perfect? Can a perfect being become imperfect?

Even if there was a God who started the ball roling... evolution proves that certain species fail and others thrive. It is the missing links that argue for a god or alien intervention

I always wondered why God needed an ARMY to stop Lucifer and his army... A true omnipotent god could just as easily wave his hand and say "Begone" since he supposedly created Lucifer et al as well...

Oddly enough I cannot seem to get anyone to give me a straight answer to that problem. Heck most believers cannot even grasp that their book says there were 14 of each clean beast and four of each unclean beasts on that Ark (says so in the Book :P )

QuoteWhat if you built a perfect model complete with life forms that you treasure and love...could the choices they make because you wished them to have free will corrupt your original plan and bring about harmful change including disease and changed balance of species?

Then you might get pissed off and throw a hissy fit... and drown everything :D

But then  how did Kangaroos get back to Australia after the flood landed the Ark in Turkey?

Quote from: rdunk on August 13, 2015, 09:23:52 PM
EVERYTHING on this planet, including the planet, will be destroyed!! This fact is presented in the Bible's book of "The Revelation", wherein St. John the Devine describes all that he saw and heard in a vision on the Lord's day.

So revelation is a 'vision'

What IF that 'vision' came from the PAST... when the planet really did get destroyed in the war with Tiamet? What IF the true are really was a space craft with domes sections to support life until the planet healed?  In that case many generations would pass on that ship and the story would change over the years

The fact you say Revelations is a vision, my version is just as valid as yours. The difference is I have some proof to back up my version :P

QuoteHe presents much in this Book of Revelation about life, and the life to come. In Chapter 21, he tells about "a new heaven and a new Earth", and mentions "the first heaven and the first Earth were passed away, and there was no more sea".

The Sun will eventually get big enough and fry earth... that is inevitable... but it won't happen in our lifetime. No prediction needed :P

QuoteRevelation 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

Well since it is only a vision. quoting it as fact is really silly.

Quote5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."

Sounds like the captain of the Ark Ship  sitting in his Captain's chair to me :P

The Sumerians believed in their Cosmology that the Earth was a flat disk with a domed tin roof... The story of NOAH came from the Sumerians...

Meet Captain NOAH   see the Ark in all it's GLORY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqA0S_-b_Rs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqA0S_-b_Rs

I recommend everyone watch this. It is an old Canadian series... it was a bit hokey in the acting but the story is awesome. And the beginning episode fits right into this discussion

THIS is the ARK

(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/42stargate/04images/Star_Lost/galaxy_ark.jpg)

THIS is REVELATION :D

the thing that bothers me most about religion.. any of them is that  you aren't supposed to think for yourself..

just follow......don't question what you are told ..just get in line.....like traffic at a red light

QuoteGenesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

I have contemplated the possibility that it is because we were not designed nor meant to live as we do.

Some of the ancient texts speak of gods (fallen angels) giving mankind instructions for making tools, weapons, makeup...the changes in knowledge led man to create harmful things to the planet and himself and eventually he will turn off the switch to death make new forms of life GMO's etc. that will destroy the creation. Is this a good thing? We don't know what is good for us.

The question of Satan, well we know it says "they" created them in Their likeness. The son who became Jesus and the son who was eventually called Satan were some of the first born of their kind. They as us were said to be made in the image of their creator. (I know if I were to create a life form virtual or otherwise some of myself would be included in the design.)

So these beings who were created first loved as Sons and were more like their creator being fleshless for instance, the betrayal of some would be a very big and painful one.

The tree of life in one text is said to have been brought to the garden and it was the only food needed by the angels and they lived forever...it was not meant for human food and may not even have had a good effect on humans.

Freewill you would definitely want to give your creations and could only hope for them to use it well.

I think what if, I with some others like me created a life form with a plan for their total existence, to care for them, give them a home, park like, a job of caring for the animals and earth, food without labor, birth with no pain and I loved them as children...then one of those who helped in created them with me throws out our plan (breeding with our created by taking human form even) gives them the means and knowledge to deal death and destruction but not the understanding they need to weld the power given so they could be powerful?

The extent of the written ancient texts is massive at a time when few could read and write and making ink and writing material was no easy task. Some tell stories I find hard to believe were simply imagined. I think we are using partial and bad info that will be cleared up with a revelation.
http://www.gnosis.org/library/mand.htm

The virtual solution is interesting as god is supposed to love creating and never stops doing so and yet has a record of everything that happenens to the smallest detail.

Personally I have the difficulty in having been born with a belief in god. I was born to a Family who never mentioned god or religion...I was raised in Gerlach Nv so you get the picture. There was no church and I never heard the words and yet I believed in a creator from my earliest memories age 3.

Between the age of 3-4 I one day looked around me outside and said aloud "I am in the wrong place"! I felt bewildered for a second or two and I recall the moment as though it were yesterday. When I turned 21 I dramatically recalled a previous life in which I died at 21.

I recall parts in between two lives and two previous lives. I feel as though things are happening and they will continue on a course that needs to be and I will not worry about the details.

Quote from: space otter on August 14, 2015, 07:51:29 PM

the thing that bothers me most about religion.. any of them is that  you aren't supposed to think for yourself..
just follow......don't question what you are told ..just get in line.....like traffic at a red light

Quite true...

The Muslims will say "if Allah wills it..." and "Allah hu Akbar" (God is great) everytime they launch a mortar :P

Christians have "The Lord is THY shepherd, though shall not want..." and the church calls their members a FLOCK

Didn't Jesus get in trouble for saying you don't need a synagogue to believe in God?

::)

The really scary thing is that all three "Abrahamic" religions came from ONE MAN

This was posted on Facebook today... It gets right to the point

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMDEISRWIAA0qUk.jpg)

I guess I don't get it :P  Saying God is Great all the time while launching weapons..

Well it seems "Allah's Will" has spoken :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dstGdAHGL30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dstGdAHGL30

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcGBl86PWjk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcGBl86PWjk

Quote from: Dyna on August 14, 2015, 09:08:11 PM
Some of the ancient texts speak of gods (fallen angels) giving mankind instructions for making tools, weapons, makeup...the changes in knowledge led man to create harmful things to the planet and himself and eventually he will turn off the switch to death make new forms of life GMO's etc. that will destroy the creation. Is this a good thing? We don't know what is good for us.

Prometheus gave us fire to keep us warm and cook our food. The Serpent gave us knowledge so we could make clothes and keep warm.  Since we were the only Mammal to be created without fur... we would have frozen our gonads off without that knowledge.

The Christians have perverted that story to call it original sin to be ashamed of our nakedness  and for that service Prometheus and the Serpent were reviled for eternity.

Was Eden a warmer place and we didn't need protection from the elements? Maybe... but can we survive in winter without heat or clothing? NO we can not.

So Either we are flawed from the beginning or we came from a warmer area.

What I find very strange in Christian belief is this.  If God made us naked... and it is a sin to be ashamed of our nakedness, why do Christians wear clothes and vilify those who do not?

Make no sense at all

QuoteThe question of Satan, well we know it says "they" created them in Their likeness. The son who became Jesus and the son who was eventually called Satan were some of the first born of their kind. They as us were said to be made in the image of their creator. (I know if I were to create a life form virtual or otherwise some of myself would be included in the design.)

So these beings who were created first loved as Sons and were more like their creator being fleshless for instance, the betrayal of some would be a very big and painful one.

This goes back to my question of why did God need an Army to defeat Satan and the fallen ones.

Also we get the story of the giants...

Genesis 6:4
King James Version
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Okay so lets have a look at this closely

IF the Nephelim were physical giants, how could they mate with the daughters of men without tearing them to shreds?  It is not physically possible  But look at the wording again 

"the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown"

By that definition Bill Gates is a Giant... a man of renown, a corporate giant

It's all a matter of how you read it...

Older version:
There were Giants in the earth in those daies: and also after that, when the sonnes of God came in vnto the daughters of men, & they bare children to them; the same became mightie men, which were of old, men of renowme.

- 1611 King James Bible


Another problem is Satan, Serpent, Dragon and Lucifer.... all supposedly the same being  yet Lucifer is only mentioned ONCE in the bible and that reference is as the Bringer of Light

Something not right here :P

QuoteThe tree of life in one text is said to have been brought to the garden and it was the only food needed by the angels and they lived forever...it was not meant for human food and may not even have had a good effect on humans.

The Sumerians had the Tree of Life, So do the Norse Gods (Yggdrasil)

In my opinion the Tree of Life is the DNA Tree, represented many times as twined serpents, like on the staff of life, the Caduceus

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-mVRnD0zF4iU/ThSJDbmW0ZI/AAAAAAAAAvM/aHvdPGqpFew/s1600/219229-caduceus01_large.jpg)

The Twin Serpents, the Two Guardians of the Tree, of the Gate... this theme is found in ALL religions around the world

(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/44cosmic_wisdom/04images/Tree_Life/Akkadian01.jpg)

Our DNA is only about 5% active... we call the rest "Junk DNA"  Does it seem logical that 95% of our DNA is JUNK?  Or is it more likely that it has not been activated yet>

We have made many cures and advances on DNA We have isolated the aging gene already... If we can alter the aging gene sequence, we will be eatting that second apple and be like the "gods" and live forever

Quote from: zorgon on August 14, 2015, 09:30:31 PM
So Either we are flawed from the beginning or we came from a warmer area.

The area between the tropics is warm is enough, and it has no winter. :)

QuoteThe extent of the written ancient texts is massive at a time when few could read and write and making ink and writing material was no easy task. Some tell stories I find hard to believe were simply imagined. I think we are using partial and bad info that will be cleared up with a revelation.

This can also be explained if there was an Ancient civilization on Earth before ours. If they kept records... and there was a cataclysm that wiped them out, the survivors would have the old stories  and those stories get distorted over time.

We already see that the Noah story (and other biblical accounts) appear to have roots in Sumerian origins..

The Tibetans (and Rosicrucian) tell us that we are the FIFTH civilization on Earth. The first had a Golden City on the sea coast... That sea coast is now the Himalayan Mountains and that city is buried in snow. Sea shells found on the top of My Everest attest to the truth of this

The stories of the huge cataclysm that created the Himalayan range are all over the Buddhist lore... and I have posted that on the website.

There are also stories in Sumerian and Tibetan cosmology of a war of worlds... ( I have yet to present that in full) This war caused major cataclysms on several planets  and the Nibiru Myth stems from these old stories

QuoteThe virtual solution is interesting as god is supposed to love creating and never stops doing so and yet has a record of everything that happens to the smallest detail.

I once told a friend of mine, A Sicilian Italian of the Messina Mob family :P that God created the universe in 6 days and rested on the seventh. Since we all know that a day in God's life is not like our day and we really haven't seen God doing much since then, what IF God is still resting? That we are still in the 7th day? If that is true there will be Hell to pay on Monday morning :P

Well my friend told that to his Monseigneur at a local coffee shop... :P The old gent went white as a sheet and he said "My son... where did you get that notion?"  My friend pointed at me :P

It was an interesting conversation after

QuoteBetween the age of 3-4 I one day looked around me outside and said aloud "I am in the wrong place"! I felt bewildered for a second or two and I recall the moment as though it were yesterday. When I turned 21 I dramatically recalled a previous life in which I died at 21.

Yes many studies done with children have shown memories of past lives.  Also violent deaths in past lives will stir memories... I myself have vivid memories of two... one in ancient pre Egypt during the true building of the pyramids and one in more recent Medieval history. Perhaps that is why I am more comfortable as Lord Zorgon :P

Through research over the years I KNOW this is my eight incarnation.  Lou Baldwin (Sleeper) has told John that this is his last incarnation on this Earth. When I first met John he was adamantly against Buddhist beliefs... he has since changed his mind (compliments of Lou Baldwin and Milton)

You have all hear about a CAT having 9 lives...  Numerology is based on 9   A number like 4567 is reduced like this  6+7+8+9= 30 ----> 3+0 =3.  So you can check things like birth dates and other info to get certain info about yourself using numerology. If your results come up with an 11 22 or 33 those are not reduced as they are master numbers. One day I will do a thread :P

In effect you have 9 lives to live out in this plane... but may have some do overs :P

4+5+6+7=22

QuoteI recall parts in between two lives and two previous lives. I feel as though things are happening and they will continue on a course that needs to be and I will not worry about the details.

Back at ATS there was a fellow Dan Tanna who could access the Akashic Record at will... few today can do that though we can all do it on occasion... though many do not realize they have done so (inspiration for example)

In reincarnation YOU sit in judgement over your past life  YOU get to sit down 'in between" and review your record and get to say "Holy crap... did I ever mess up"  YOU get to decide where you need to go next

Can I prove it to you? No and I don't need to... because you will know soon enough :D

I have recounted the story of my dad's brief return (two weeks)... and my first wife's aunt who came to the subway to say goodbye to her.. so I KNOW and have no need to prove anything... it's not my place

But I do get my dander up when the Thumpers try to force their will on me :P

Quote from: ArMaP on August 14, 2015, 09:47:44 PM
The area between the tropics is warm is enough, and it has no winter. :)

Mr ArMap....  have you ever stood NAKED out in the Noonday sun at the Equator and not gotten SUNBURNED to a CRISP?  LOL

If I went outside here in Vegas right now and laid naked by the pool ... within an hour I would need an ambulance :P

It is interesting to note however that Egyptians and Greeks of old did not wear much but today the arabs are covered from head to toe to keep from roasting

Quote from: zorgon on August 14, 2015, 10:21:29 PM
The Tibetans (and Rosicrucian) tell us that we are the FIFTH civilization on Earth. The first had a Golden City on the sea coast... That sea coast is now the Himalayan Mountains and that city is buried in snow. Sea shells found on the top of My Everest attest to the truth of this

That sounds like something from Sorcha Faal. :)
The sea shells found on Everest attest only to the truth of the Himalayas having been, some time in the past, under the sea, not that there was a Golden City on the sea coast and that the city is now buried in snow somewhere in the Himalayas.

QuoteYou have all hear about a CAT having 9 lives...

In Portugal, like in other countries, it's only seven.

QuoteNumerology is based on 9

Probably because we use a decimal numeric system.

QuoteOne day I will do a thread :P

That would be interesting, at least to see how things would look in a different numeric system like hexadecimal. :)

Quote from: zorgon on August 14, 2015, 10:24:52 PM
Mr ArMap....  have you ever stood NAKED out in the Noonday sun at the Equator and not gotten SUNBURNED to a CRISP?  LOL

I was never on the Equator or even the tropics, but I do know that I do not get sunburned to a crisp, as, like most Portuguese, I used to spend hours on the beach during the Summer and would end up darker than most Afro-Americans. :)

QuoteIf I went outside here in Vegas right now and laid naked by the pool ... within an hour I would need an ambulance :P

That's probably because of your German blood. Most people from the south of Europe are not like that. :)

One thing I like in the Summer is to feel the Sun on the skin and the slightly burning feeling after two or three minutes. That feeling lasts only for one or two minutes, and I could remain like that for hours without getting burned.

QuoteIt is interesting to note however that Egyptians and Greeks of old did not wear much but today the arabs are covered from head to toe to keep from roasting

Different places have different habits, just because they use all those clothes it doesn't mean they need to.

Quote from: zorgon on August 14, 2015, 09:36:45 PM
This goes back to my question of why did God need an Army to defeat Satan and the fallen ones.

Also we get the story of the giants...

Genesis 6:4
King James Version
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Okay so lets have a look at this closely

IF the Nephelim were physical giants, how could they mate with the daughters of men without tearing them to shreds?  It is not physically possible  But look at the wording again 

"the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown"

By that definition Bill Gates is a Giant... a man of renown, a corporate giant

It's all a matter of how you read it...

Older version:
There were Giants in the earth in those daies: and also after that, when the sonnes of God came in vnto the daughters of men, & they bare children to them; the same became mightie men, which were of old, men of renowme.

- 1611 King James Bible


Another problem is Satan, Serpent, Dragon and Lucifer.... all supposedly the same being  yet Lucifer is only mentioned ONCE in the bible and that reference is as the Bringer of Light

Something not right here :P

QuoteIf God made us naked... and it is a sin to be ashamed of our nakedness, why do Christians wear clothes and vilify those who do not?

I think our understanding of this is quite corrupted I don't think the unclothed nature of the body was the problem they lived like the ancient polynesians i would think and thus I wait for the great info influx... revelation.

It seems that angels created bodies that could mate with humans, the offspring must have been little at birth but continued to grow I would guess if this is factual and it seems there is a lot of info to suggest giants existed.

QuoteAnother problem is Satan, Serpent, Dragon and Lucifer.... all supposedly the same being  yet Lucifer is only mentioned ONCE in the bible and that reference is as the Bringer of Light

I would think that this being (who helped with creation) was and is a beloved son and brother of the creator and the created. The problem being he has decided on a course of action which harms himself and others. I would assume he could even be forgiven like everyone else if he wanted to change.
This fits the myths of the various gods and clearly world wide the stories are about the same thing.

I think when we have full info we will not need to worry about all of the miscellaneous information we have today.I think this is what faith means, eyes open, seek and eventually those who care will be given the answers as will all, but most won't care they like things their way, no need to worry or stress. No being burned for not getting it, many simply removed so the creation is refined.

QuoteThis goes back to my question of why did God need an Army to defeat Satan and the fallen ones.

I don't think he does, the "honor" of putting things right is given to his Brother who is his equal. The fact that he has many who followed him means his Brother needs the same.

ah story telling time

well here's a few things I have wondered about thur the years...reading, discusssion and just plain pondering  some possibilities

so let's play what if

what if
there were many layers of civilizations before us ..long before that we don't really know much about but have read or heard some stories

civilizations that
>had no need for the food of now..plants or animals..but had some other source of maintaining themselves
> had weapons of indescribable power.. things that flew and shot
> were able to mix genes with critters that resulted in combo's we consider myths
    i.e. griffins, centaurs, cyclops. sphinx, pegasus..etc.
> what if some of those combinations were mean and killed and were labeled demons

> what if some of those combinations were so intelligent to be thought to start there own groups
   like isis and orsiris , Mictlantecuhtli  and Quetzalcoatl  , great spirits. etc
> what if most of those left from those ancient worlds had powers and were considered above the rest
   like odin, zeus,merlin

civilizations  that
>had real knowledge of our power and how we recycled
>that died away from any number of things like
>over breeding, fighting, nature disasters, chemistry that didn't work

ciivilztions that got dumber and less knowing with each generation

and somehow down thur the ages  we have incorrectly labeled
things we truly don't know about

what if we just blunder around to the point of creating religions to account for our blundering around

what if we sit and remember some of what has been lost and attempt to step away from the herd

OR

what if we DO recall our power and abilities but that dang meteorite hits in sept when the pope is visiting the city of brotherly love

just what will the ones who are left think then?  does it even matter
maybe we are just a hologram plying out some ones game after all

humm playing at what if can be dismal....sigh

:) :) The"what if's" pretty much fit in the same category as do the "I think's", especially when it comes to religious and non-religious subjects. Usually we use those such terms at the times when our own knowledge runs a little short on whatever is the subject. It is a good way to have conservation, but the gist of the elements of discussion seem to often result in dead-ends, sometimes in the paths of our greatest needs. If one really wants to know about a subject in particular, there are usually ways to get what is needed from those who have reason to KNOW. For instance, if you have a question about working on a car, talk to a trained mechanic, not the software guy that put the maintenance manual into the computer. Or, if you want to know about a particular religious thing, then seek out those who have reason to have specific knowledge/involvement in your religious area of interest, not those who have no direct involvement with it! ................I think! :) :)

hah hah  Rdunk I knew you would have something to say ;)


and yes it is a

Quotegood way to have conservation

but none of us seem to be able to see past our own firm view of things

my comeback is
what if there ARE NO experts in  those fields or inquiry ?..that's why I was playing at 'what if'

having no experts ... which is where I think we are
we all have found  a comfortable view and proceed to prove it
each using what feels right
it is also why while I totally respect your view on this subject  I also totally disagree with it  :D

but like my friend says to me all the time
it's all good
;D

I do understand and appreciate your comments space otter!! Yes, our individual "view of things" does create "lines in the sand" for us, so to speak, in that in many instances our views are foundational to all that we are, think, say, and do. And that is the case for us, in most of the primary aspects of our lives. Some are taught views that we have accepted, and some are views learned in life which we adopt and adapt into our very being as a person - we become who we as we live our lives by what we know and by what we believe to be truth.

We all are human, and we do often make mistakes, some of which also are continuing formational to our lives and learning. There are two significant places that play a major role in every aspect of our lives, and that is our mind and our heart. These two do/can work together, but they also can lead/go in different directions at times, and cause us to do or not do that which we should or shouldn't. And that is an element of life that we all do face continually in our lives.

But...........for each of us, with whatever is the subject, our "firm view of things" are often foundational aspects of our lives, and in many cases are not negotiable, from the absolute love of friends and family, to the absolute believing and accepting the God of this Universe (which you know I do). There are simply some things with which there is no room/margin for negotiation - for instance my Christian beliefs are not, because my first step of negotiation would equal a step of total denial of my faith in what I believe to be the very truth of God! And I do assume that to be the case for most believers, Christian and others.

There are many, if not most, things subject to altering views/negotiation in our lives- politics, family matters, aliens or not aliens, and etc. But, when it involves LIFE and death matters, then we do need to stay grounded in what is absolutely right for each of our own selves!!:)

Quote from: zorgon on August 11, 2015, 09:07:42 AM
Bone cancer?  What's that about?  How dare you?

This is the central point.  New Atheism is not about disbelief in a God or Gods; it's about hatred of them.  The New Atheists are not genuinely concerned with whether or not anything non-material exists; they are primarily consumed with hatred of Yahweh, specifically.

I could have gone down that path myself, but I didn't.  My departure from Christianity was a long process, but I was drawn to the worship of Kali Ma in July of 2007.  I also made a deliberate, conscious decision from the word go, that regardless of what happened, I was never going to hate Yahweh; and that was ultimately the only thing that allowed me to release the fear of Hell, and move on with my life.  All right; so I was born purely for destruction, as Paul wrote.  I have still had life, and I know what a miracle that is.  So let me burn forever if I am going to, but I will remain grateful for what I have had.

The creatures came rushing on, their eyes brighter and brighter as they drew nearer and nearer to the standing Stars. But as they came right up to Aslan one or other of two things happened to each of them. They all looked straight in his face; I don't think they had any choice about that. And when some looked, the expression of their faces changed terribly—it was fear and hatred: except that, on the faces of Talking Beasts, the fear and hatred lasted only for a fraction of a second. You could see that they suddenly ceased to be Talking Beasts. They were just ordinary animals. And all the creatures who looked at Aslan in that way swerved to their right, his left, and disappeared into his huge black shadow, which (as you have heard) streamed away to the left of the doorway. The children never saw them again. I don't know what became of them. But the others looked in the face of Aslan and loved him, though some of them were very frightened at the same time. And all these came in at the Door, in on Aslan's right.

The Christians demonised me.  They consistently told me that I was going to Hell, and in the end, I believed them.  I don't know if anyone here has experienced what it is like to literally believe that you are going to Hell, but it is a difficult thing to describe.  I had a man from the local church see me in the local supermarket once and become almost rigid with fear of me, when all I was doing was buying vegetables.

I went to Hell, though.  During 2005, I had a series of very vivid dreams, about being locked inside various kinds of prison complexes, which housed not only human, but extremely non-human beings.  The Christians convinced me that I was a Hell-spawned monster, so I took the face of an Orc, and chose a demon slayer as my Goddess.  For a time, if only vicariously, until I healed, I would become their monster; until I met someone from the Church of Satan in California, who assisted me in discovering whose side I am really on, regardless of what the Christians think.  Then archangel Michael came, and I learned about the existence of the Essenes, and what Christianity really is, which most Christians themselves do not know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2sTXXesYNM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2sTXXesYNM

"The blood haze has lifted.  The demon's fire has burned out in my veins!  I... have... freed... myself!"

I have turned Hell from a source of fear, to a source of strength.  Using or being attracted to Nepalese and Plutonian aesthetics is now second nature for me; lots of Scorpionic red and black.  While there are still lots of things that I am afraid of, three things that I am not, are demons, fire, and the dark.  I have faced my demons, and I am still facing them.  I talk to them almost every night.  I haven't purged all of them yet, but they don't bother me like they used to.

What Mr. Fry has to realise is that you only get out of Christianity one way; and that is by undergoing the experience that Jesus himself did.  Jesus went to Hell for three days and came back, and that is shamanic initiation.  The greatest and most disempowering lie that the church has ever told, is to imply that Jesus' power is not accessible to every last one of us.  Many of the words he spoke were devoted to telling us that.

Something else I'm slowly realising, is that you can never be free of anything for as long as you hate it.  For as long as Mr. Fry hates Christianity - for as long as he keeps mentally screaming, "How dare you?" - he will remain bound.  I wrote hateful tirades about Islam on this site, not that long ago.  I used to hate New Atheism itself as well.  While I still don't particularly want to be around members of either of those two groups for the most part, the passion is gone now.  If I hate Allah, he is my jailor.  If I hate Richard Dawkins, he is my jailor.  If I hate Yahweh, he is my jailor; but I do not, so he never was.

I am not Christian now, and I never will be again.  They have lost me.  I have read Albert Pike, among other things, and I have learned more than most of them know.  Pike wanted me to leave Christianity and worship Satan.  I left the church, but I have not done the latter.  Pike wanted me to hate God, and become an atheist.  I have not done that.  My journey was not all my doing.  I had the intent, but I have been given grace, and I acknowledge that.

Most Christians would still consider me damned, if they knew about my perspective.  That's fine, as far as I am concerned.  Let them think that.  I know that I have addressed the God of Israel as my father, and asked him if he was going to send me to Hell, and I heard him tell me no, with regret that they ever made me think he would.

Another thing to realise, is that the attitude of fundamentally helpless victimhood which Fry demonstrates here, is an entirely inevitable consequence of materialism as a worldview.  If completely fixed, unchangeable physical reality is the only thing you acknowledge, then yeah, life is very predictably really going to suck.  As long as Fry thinks that, then he is going to suffer.

I can offer Fry a solution for his problem of evil.  I have recently discovered Neville Goddard, and as well as my previous experiences, reading him has continued to convince me that I am ultimately responsible for every single thing that happens to me, whether good or bad.  We all are.  Yes, God helps sometimes; but Neville Goddard mentions that God remains in us and recreates himself in us, which means that we have creative agency.

Stephen Fry is one of very few members of the pantheon of New Atheism, who I have very positive feelings towards.  He is a genuinely principled and conscientious man, and I respect that.  He is, however, deeply misguided, and he also defiles himself with his continued anger, as I myself have done in the past.  I can only hope that eventually Stephen will allow himself to release that anger, to the point where he can start to really heal.  The agony that Christianity can cause, can be truly unbelievable.

I know.  I've been there.

Roll up Roll up!!, Get your religion ere! take your pick ladies and gents , Each one a beauty, all promising solace, sucre and redemption. which ones for you my dear, Roll up Roll up!

agnosticism       
Amish       
ancestor worship       
animism       
Asatrú       
atheism       
Aum Shinrikyo       
Bahá'í Faith       
Brahma Kumari       
Branch Davidians       
Buddhism       
Celtic Paganism         
Chen Tao       
Chinese religion       
Christadelphians       
Christian Apostolic Church in Zion       
Christianity       
Concerned Christians       
Confucianism       
Dami Xuanjiao       
deism       
Divine Lightmission       
Druidism       
Druze       
dualism       
Ebionites       
Eckankar       
Gnosticism       
Hare Krishna       
Heathenism         
Heaven's Gate       
Hinduism       
Hookers for Jesus / The Family of God       
Humanism       
Islam       
Jain       
Jedi Knights         
Jehovah's Witnesses       
Judaism         
Mennonite       
Mithraism       
monotheism         
Mysticism       
Native American Church       
New Age       
no religion       
occultism       
Order of the Solar Temple       
Paganism         
pantheism       
People's Temple       
polytheism       
Raja Yoga       
Rastafarian       
Ravidassia       
Salvation Army       
Santería       
Satanism       
Scientology       
Shamanism         
Shinto       
Sikhism       
Spiritualism       
Taoism       
theism         
Thelema       
Theosophy       
Traditional African Church       
Unification Church       
Unitarianism       
Unitarian-Universalism       
Unitas Fratrum       
Universalism       
Vodun/Voodoo       
Wicca       
Witchcraft       
Yezidism       
Zhu Shen Jiao       
Zoroastrianism       


http://www.humanreligions.info/religions.html

Quote from: zorgon on August 12, 2015, 03:30:37 AM

Except... a boulder bigger than he can lift...  Tough on that :P

I see what you did there, I love that one. Really food for thought.
Call me simple but we are all GOD, we create our own universe.

Quote from: rdunk on August 15, 2015, 03:45:37 AM
Or, if you want to know about a particular religious thing, then seek out those who have reason to have specific knowledge/involvement in your religious area of interest, not those who have no direct involvement with it! ................I think! :) :)

I agree, but what if (again ;) ) we want to know about what's behind the religion itself, what were the reasons for the creation of that specific religion?

Who should we talk to?

Does the mechanic know what the inventor of the car was thinking?

Quote from: petrus4 on August 15, 2015, 08:22:48 AM
The New Atheists are not genuinely concerned with whether or not anything non-material exists; they are primarily consumed with hatred of Yahweh, specifically.

That's why I don't like those "new" versions of most things, as they look like something else disguised under an old name.

If an atheist thinks people that believe in god(s) wrong, why would he/she hate them or, even worse, hate their god(s), something that he/she doesn't think exists?

Petrus4 said, "Most Christians would still consider me damned, if they knew about my perspective.  That's fine, as far as I am concerned.  Let them think that.  I know that I have addressed the God of Israel as my father, and asked him if he was going to send me to Hell, and I heard him tell me no, with regret that they ever made me think he would".

Wow petrus, you have really been through much, in dealing with the religious/non-religious thought elements of your life. And yes, it is not a good thing to experience some of the religious dealings you have had with others, especially with Christians, no matter how well intended. However, in reality, I suppose most "religions" do have very "basic facts in what they(we) believe that are "hard grounded". Some of what you say reflects that at times in your life, when others have been expressing those "hard grounded areas", it wasn't done in a loving compassionate way, which simply turns most of us off, to what often times could be a truth(s) we need! :o

You certainly have had a very difficult time with your belief systems, but I can easily recognize a marked difference often in your comments here, compared to how you were prone to comment in the not too distant past - for the better, for you IMO!! I think you just seem to be more at ease with life things!! Do I think you are there yet? Well, you know my answer to that! :) But, I do think that as long as you have a heart that remains open to the truth, you may yet find more reason to see the reality of those truths.

Petrus, I do wonder whether your bad feelings toward Christianity are because of what you saw/found in reading the Bible, or was it simply because of a/some misdirected Christians who were banging you on the head? In any case, if you ever wonder about "what is it about Christianity", and "why do so many people believe it to be the truth it", or why do they etc--  ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,  , just get yourself a Bible, and read it for yourself, and know that the words can and will speak directly to you and your heart. That way, you can at least get a straight understanding of what God, Jesus, and His Word are all about. You never know - you could still have more life changing changes to make in your life!! :)  If you ever do decide to do more Bible reading, I suggest that you start with the New Testament/New Covenant, as much of the Old Testament presents a "shadow" of things to come in the New Testament. Both Testaments present a wealth of knowledge about God and his "man", but The New Testament is wherein God "knocked a home run" (sacrificed his Son) for the salvation of His man - US!!

Petrus, thanks for sharing with us much of your personal experiences of many years over!!

This direct statement probably does somewhat fit with this OP discussion! :)


(http://s7.postimg.org/6keayu9ij/Screen_Shot_2015_08_15_at_11_29_14_AM.jpg)

Quote from: rdunk on August 15, 2015, 05:34:28 PM
This direct statement probably does somewhat fit with this OP discussion! :)


(http://s7.postimg.org/6keayu9ij/Screen_Shot_2015_08_15_at_11_29_14_AM.jpg)

The full quote is:

QuoteHow well I have learned that there is no fence to sit on between heaven and hell. There is a deep, wide gulf, a chasm, and in that chasm is no place for any man.

And I agree, for those that believe in heaven and hell. :)

QuoteAnd I agree, for those that believe in heaven and hell. :)

I don't think humans are made for heaven they are made for Earth. Hell is simply the grave and being removed from the creator. In other words Jesus was dead three days.

No need for a resurrection is people were not in their graves at death.It is said many times the dead are dead.

Quote"But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death]. For since death came through a man [Adam], the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man [Jesus Christ]" (1 Corinthians 15:12-21, NIV).

The angels who were cast into their hell which is Earth as they could no longer go home but had to remain here after their bad decision.

http://www.godsplanforall.com/mistranslationstomeanhell

I think the various religions have built up false beliefs and fear for power and prestige and money. I think it is all very simple, the truth is written in our hearts and minds, DNA. I don't think we need do any ceremonies or anything but live decent lives and be patient.

Quote from: ArMaP on August 15, 2015, 05:51:51 PM
The full quote is:How well I have learned that there is no fence to sit on between heaven and hell. There is a deep, wide gulf, a chasm, and in that chasm is no place for any man. Johnny Cash

And I agree, for those that believe in heaven and hell. :)

Thanks ArMaP for giving us the complete quote! This gives us even a better understanding of Johnny Cash's thoughts about these two places!

Quote from: Dyna on August 15, 2015, 06:52:36 PM

I think the various religions have built up false beliefs and fear for power and prestige and money. I think it is all very simple, the truth is written in our hearts and minds, DNA. I don't think we need do any ceremonies or anything but live decent lives and be patient.

Dyna, the truth or consequences of your statement will for sure be known one day soon. I will simply say, that is not what the words of the Bible teach. Your statement does sound good to our ears and minds of the flesh, but "living decent lives and being patient" I believe will not lead to a desired ending.

Dyna, you are certainly right with what you said about "humans not being made for heaven"! Heaven is not a place for bodies of the flesh! Rather it is a place for bodies of the Spirit - God is a Spirit, and in the Bible much is said about the Spirit of God. Jesus even says, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5) :)

The thing is I have no worries over it, I have faith that we are a created species and that the creator loves us. If there is it be a new heavens and a new earth, it needs to be populated by the right proven creatures and if I am not one I am glad I will go off into eternal death as I know that is the consequence.

I think as Jesus was an example of simpleness, non materialistic kindness, separated from the governing and religious bodies of his day whatever may have been said by whomever since.

I believe there are other gods that require ceremony and offerings, special dress and honor for their priests and special buildings and gold statues to honor them. I believe that such that seems to have been required of the Jews is misinterpreted at the least.

Quote from: Dyna on August 15, 2015, 06:52:36 PM
I don't think we need do any ceremonies or anything but live decent lives and be patient.

How true, if most would live their life in light of this.

And I keep smiling laughing at the title of this thread, I dont
know who this Fry guy is...though I can say that in my world
God is alive and well.



8)

Quote from: burntheships on August 16, 2015, 05:02:51 AM
And I keep smiling laughing at the title of this thread, I dont
know who this Fry guy is...though I can say that in my world
God is alive and well.

He is a decent man.  A kind man.  He is, however, also a hubristic and passionately angry man; and rage can drive otherwise good people to do truly unspeakable things.

"You have seen me when the bloodlust has come upon me. You have seen me wade in blood up to my knees. I have killed the children of the humans ere now. But we gave all we had fighting in that manner, and where has it brought to us? Low and defeated, our kind slouch in camps and lift no hand to free themselves, let alone fight for others. That way of fighting, of making war, has brought us to this. Long have I thought that the ancestors would show me a new way, a way to win back what we have lost. It is a fool who repeats the same actions expecting a different outcome, and whatever I may be, I am not a fool."
-- Grom Hellscream

I can not judge anyone who is angry, without being a hypocrite.  I can not judge anyone who wishes to employ overwhelming violence, simply because they believe that they have no other means of ending their suffering, than by murdering those who they perceive to be causing it.

Anger and what it leads to is not a solution, if for no other reason than because you are still engaging and interacting with that which you are angry with.  The solution is simply to cease associating with that which you are angry with, and cease giving it your consent.  Resistance towards that which is not wanted, does not and ultimately can not create that which is wanted.  As Bucky Fuller correctly recognised, the only way to get rid of that which is not wanted, is to replace it with that which is wanted.

More than anything else, the one thing I believe we as a society need to replace, is prestige, or "coolness," as a concept.  We can't stop people from wanting to respect or revere things, but what we can do is ensure that that which is revered, is only that which has solid, defineable integrity and tangible benefit behind it.  This is why manifestos are actually extremely good things, because what a well-written manifesto does, is provide a tangible, testable definition of a desired good; and in so doing, renders that good immune to malevolent perversion by the Hegelian dialectic.  Two and two can never equal five.

While it is true at the ultimate level that that which can be codified as the Tao is not the Tao, I think it is still both possible and beneficial to codify a given thing's external or objectively measurable attributes.  The letter enables guardianship of the spirit.  In this we see the paradox presented by Saturn and Uranus, Aquarius' ruling planets.  Saturn insists that material reality exists.  Uranus, conversely, permits transcendance of supposedly inviolable physical reality.

Zorgon wants to be a king.  I genuinely do apologise to him for the degree of resentment that I have directed towards him for that in the past; because astrology has reminded me that monarchy genuinely has its' place.  The planets orbit the Sun, and the Sun corresponds with monarchy.

Yet what does this mean?  It means, as Mencius taught, that the only legitimate basis of monarchy is generosity, and both the willingness and prodigious or unique ability to provide for the needs of others.  That is what the Sun does.  It gives light, heat, and energy to the other planets.  So here we have a precise, practical, operating definition of what monarchy is.  If Zorgon is truly capable of similarly providing nourishment to his subjects, then let him do so.

But we have another problem.  We are in the time of Aquarius.  Monarchy is a Leonine correspondence, and Aquarius is the opposite sign of Leo.  Supposedly, that means strained, unnatural "equality," of the kind that Marx advocated; and Pol Pot and Stalin have already shown us where that path leads.

The Law of Polarity can come to our rescue, here.  Polarity reminds us that seeming opposite extremes exist on a spectrum, and there is a line running between them.  Viewed from this perspective, we understand that Aquarius is not the opposite of Leo at all, but its' refinement and completion.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
-- Jesus Christ, Matthew 5:17-18, KJV

The point is not to get rid of kings.  The point is to have a very large multiplicity of small, individual kingdoms.  This is the definition of a network, and a network is one of Aquarius' most fundamental correspondences. 

This, ironically, is also what the former USSR claimed itself to be, before the concept was hijacked.  The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.  The problem did not come from having soviet socialist republics, at all.  The problem came from having a union of them.  In making Moscow the capital, the Russians might as well have re-instated the Tsar, for all the good it did them.  Individual realms must have autonomy.  They can have contact with other realms, by all means; but they must also have sovereignty within their own domains.  Unity is always a euphemism for tyranny; and this is also why I am an advocate of the articles of Confederation which were originally proposed for America, but not the centralised Republic.  A king must be king in his own state, but only in his own state.

At first, it may appear that my above writing is a divergence and a tangent from this thread's discussion, but I have realised in the end, that it is not so.  Mr. Fry is here raging against his own misperception of the unjust authority of Yahweh.  Yet his problem is not in reality with God.  We live in a pluralistic universe.  There are spirits who are motivated by mutual benefit, and there are spirits who are motivated by predatory self-interest which is detrimental to others.  It is precisely because God is good, that he allows spirits which cause things like bone cancer to continue to exist. 

This is what Mr. Fry and many other Atheists apparently do not understand.  If we were to have a universe where bone cancer was not permitted, then we might find ourselves living in a universe where many things which we had previously considered good, were not permitted also.  What causes bone cancer?  How do you seperate that thread from the rest of the universe?  How do you isolate it?  If, as both quantum physics and the Native Americans tell us, we are all connected, then a universe without bone cancer can not exist, and still be the same universe.  Everything is necessary.

If Mr. Fry wants to erradicate bone cancer, then let him look into the law of Polarity, and discover which state bone cancer is the opposite of.  Then let him find the correspondences of said opposite state of bone cancer, and apply them to the bone cancer, which will cause it to leave.  While I know virtually nothing about bone cancer specifically, the law of Correspondence tells me that bone cancer, like all other things, only wishes to exist among other conditions which are similar to it.  Nothing enjoys absolute solitude.

Mr. Fry says God is evil.  I say that the Gods are fundamentally benevolent, that they can not be anything else for the universe to continue functioning, and that their revealing of Hermetic law to me, is my proof of that.  Mr. Fry needs to learn much more than what he currently knows, about how the universe really functions; and once he does so, not only will his anger vanish, but he will realise that anger is not in his own best interests.

Quote from: space otter on August 14, 2015, 11:55:21 PM
so let's play what if

I LIKE What If?  :P

Quotewhat if
there were many layers of civilizations before us ..long before that we don't really know much about but have read or heard some stories

Yes we are the FIFTH  :D According to Tibetans and Rosicrucians.  It is also likely that the pre Inca sites with the puzzle stones are from the first race. Oddly enough the Tibetans say the first race were Giants :D (more on that later)

Quotecivilizations that
>had no need for the food of now..plants or animals..but had some other source of maintaining themselves
> had weapons of indescribable power.. things that flew and shot
> were able to mix genes with critters that resulted in combo's we consider myths
    i.e. griffins, centaurs, cyclops. sphinx, pegasus..etc.
> what if some of those combinations were mean and killed and were labeled demons

Sounds good  The Vedics speak of such weapons, so do the tales of Atlantis. The Genetic altering is already being reproduced today as well (see Livingmoon pages :P )  As to labeling that is the big issue in my book. Call it an Alien Gray or a Demon... a Tall White or and Angel... what is the difference. Its only a different name. Flaming Chariot/UFO  Flying Shield/Flying Saucer...  What's in a name?

Quote> what if some of those combinations were so intelligent to be thought to start there own groups
   like isis and orsiris , Mictlantecuhtli  and Quetzalcoatl  , great spirits. etc
> what if most of those left from those ancient worlds had powers and were considered above the rest
   like odin, zeus,merlin

That would make all the Ancient Gods real and most likely fit the Atlantean tales of how the remnants spread all around the world taking some of the knowledge with them

Quotecivilizations  that
>had real knowledge of our power and how we recycled
>that died away from any number of things like
>over breeding, fighting, nature disasters, chemistry that didn't work

If one civilization is destroyed by war, pestilence, asteroid, cataclysm, etc... it would be highly plausible that in the early years they would retain some knowledge and some of the devices but as time goes on and the struggle to survive becomes more important, the skills are lost, the tools wear out and we start over.

IF the time span between these civilizations is long enough, all traces would vanish (except the huge megaliths that we find all over the world we cannot explain and the odd OOPART like the scalpels found in a 5000 year old grave

Quotecivilizations that got dumber and less knowing with each generation

Yes as they forgot the how and why... but remembered the motions. That explains why the GP is the best and all later pyramids got sloppier.  We can see the exact same thing today with NASA because NASA FORGOT how they got to the moon.  All the files were lost, no one kept good records and all those that worked on the project are gone or dead...  And this is only after about 40 years

Quoteand somehow down thru the ages  we have incorrectly labeled
things we truly don't know about
what if we just blunder around to the point of creating religions to account for our blundering around

That pretty much sums it up :D

Quotewhat if we sit and remember some of what has been lost and attempt to step away from the herd

I am pretty certain that we do get sudden flashes of memory from the past.... or maybe even the possible future. If the government can make a LOOKING GLASS then perhaps certain people can also tune into those backward travelling light rays and get a flash of inspiration, like Goddard, Oberst and Tsiolkowsky who all three independently came up with the same liquid fuel rocket  and those three nations became today's space powers

QuoteOR

what if we DO recall our power and abilities but that dang meteorite hits in sept when the pope is visiting the city of brotherly love

just what will the ones who are left think then?  does it even matter
maybe we are just a hologram plying out some ones game after all

Sooner or later another asteroid will hit earth... That is inevitable. I have over 200 major craters documented...

Any survivors... the first thing that happens is the strong with take over, in small groups or gangs. Any food and technology that survives would soon be consumed. Concrete at best lasts 500 years before it falls to dust.  The glass windows of our buildings will soon break when no one is maintaining them, the steel will rust in another thousand years. My walkway gets weeds in the crack in about a month  If left alone in a few years those weeds crack the pavement  Dust blows in and more weeds grow... Nature takes over

Any metal will be reused and reused by the survivors but there will be no new metal smelted for a long time... electronics and data will be lost  and most of our knowledge is on that..

Books? A 100 year old book is already falling to dust under extreme care... no book would survive the elements for 1000 years unless stored in a special container  or written in stone or metal 

So a civilization vanishing with all but a few traces left behind is very easy.  The stories get retold and passed down through countless generations and they change, get embellished and edited, get translated to new tongues and retold...

Welcome to TODAY :P





[/quote]

Quote from: rdunk on August 15, 2015, 03:45:37 AM
For instance, if you have a question about working on a car, talk to a trained mechanic, not the software guy that put the maintenance manual into the computer. Or, if you want to know about a particular religious thing, then seek out those who have reason to have specific knowledge/involvement in your religious area of interest, not those who have no direct involvement with it! ................I think! :) :)

Well the problem there is that in the case of the car it is a physical object that one can learn expertise on... while with religion, ANY religion, it is a belief so NO ONE can be an expert on whether or not it is real.

The very fact that we have so many religions and then hundreds of variations and interpretations of those base religions is proof of that.  It is like a giant tree with endless branches. As soon as someone has an issue with an interpretation, they go off and start a new chapter. Martin Luther did not believe in Hell... so he created Protestantism. Henry the VIII wanted a divorce so he created Anglicism, the Irish pitted Catholics against Protestants and fought a bloody war for years over an interpretation... Sunnis want to wipe out Sufis  and visa versa yet they are both Islam...  on and on it goes... NO ONE is an expert  they are all just guessing

So your example is comparing oranges to basketballs :PBesides I asked many religious 'experts' in my early years... most of the time I got quotes scripture or told "It is not ours to question the way of God" 

Yeah right  sorry that don't work for me :P

So exactly HOW MANY animals got on that ark again?

Gimme a straight answer  don't quote scripture :P

Quote from: space otter on August 15, 2015, 04:28:27 AM
and yes it is a  but none of us seem to be able to see past our own firm view of things

There used to be a time when people listened to a teacher or a Master. In fact the Secret Societies were formed to have a place to learn stuff that was not in the norm (and could get you killed for thinking about it)  In those days there was peace in learning.  But today on the web, there are too many opinions on everything. No one is listening, they are all experts. They have all formed their beliefs and nothing can shake it.

Try and they call you names like shill or worse and go back into their personal La La Land  :P

Quotemy comeback is
what if there ARE NO experts in  those fields or inquiry ?..that's why I was playing at 'what if'

There can be no expert in a mythological belief :P  It is all merely opinion. Until someone can PROVE one of their Gods is real, it is all just opinion and belief

Quotehaving no experts ... which is where I think we are
we all have found  a comfortable view and proceed to prove it
each using what feels right
it is also why while I totally respect your view on this subject  I also totally disagree with it  :D
but like my friend says to me all the time
it's all good
;D

A Thousand Monks  A Thousand Religions...

Its a lonely journey... Hu-Mons have a need for others to believe as they do... most of them, that is  not all ;)

So here is a WHAT IF for ya...

WHAT IF we are all on separate TIME LINES that are close and overlap... but differ in very slight and almost unnoticeable ways?  For example some see anomalies in moon pics as clear as day, other see blurry rocks... perhaps those that see the blurs are a little more removed from the timelines of those that see the anomalies

Just food for thought :D

As to the Gods... ALL OF YOU :P  stop messing around and show yourselves and end this charade of killing and feuding over which one of you is the BOSS

As conan said to Krom... "Grant me this or to hell with you!"   

::)

Quote from: Elvis Hendrix on August 15, 2015, 10:47:30 AM
Roll up Roll up!!, Get your religion ere! take your pick ladies and gents ,

That's the SHORT LIST :P

Quote from: Dyna on August 15, 2015, 06:52:36 PM
The angels who were cast into their hell which is Earth as they could no longer go home but had to remain here after their bad decision.

Dominion on SciFi has a good take on that :D

QuoteI think the various religions have built up false beliefs and fear for power and prestige and money. I think it is all very simple, the truth is written in our hearts and minds, DNA. I don't think we need do any ceremonies or anything but live decent lives and be patient.

On THAT I agree 100%

Quote from: ArMaP on August 14, 2015, 11:09:44 PM
That sounds like something from Sorcha Faal. :)

No actually its 30 plus years of research and my own conclusions. I have yet to decide if it is worth my time sharing :P

QuoteThe sea shells found on Everest attest only to the truth of the Himalayas having been, some time in the past, under the sea, not that there was a Golden City on the sea coast and that the city is now buried in snow somewhere in the Himalayas.

The Golden City can be found in many Ancinet Texts  You need only look. In Fact Beth (Undo) did a lot of work related to that City

QuoteIn Portugal, like in other countries, it's only seven.

Portugal lives in a different reality :P

QuoteProbably because we use a decimal numeric system.

No...

QuoteThat would be interesting, at least to see how things would look in a different numeric system like hexadecimal. :)

Numerology is not exactly "a different numeric system like hexadecimal"  as it doesn't tally numbers

Quote from: zorgon on August 16, 2015, 12:36:56 PM
No actually its 30 plus years of research and my own conclusions. I have yet to decide if it is worth my time sharing :P

My Sorcha Faal comment was about the wording of your post, as if one fact (sea shells found on the Himalayas) makes the theory (a Golden City that was on the shore is now under the snow in the Himalayas) proved.

QuoteThe Golden City can be found in many Ancinet Texts  You need only look. In Fact Beth (Undo) did a lot of work related to that City

Found in ancient texts is not the same as being real.

QuotePortugal lives in a different reality :P

No, it's just a different culture, something that most Americans think doesn't exist, as they can only see their version of things.  :P

QuoteNo...

I will wait for the evidence. :)

QuoteNumerology is not exactly "a different numeric system like hexadecimal"  as it doesn't tally numbers

I didn't say it was a different numeric system, what I meant to say was that I am interested in seeing how numerology applies to a different numeric system.
And if numerology doesn't tally numbers why is it called "numerology"? ???

Quote from: zorgon on August 16, 2015, 12:00:28 PM
Sounds good  The Vedics speak of such weapons, so do the tales of Atlantis. The Genetic altering is already being reproduced today as well (see Livingmoon pages :P )  As to labeling that is the big issue in my book. Call it an Alien Gray or a Demon... a Tall White or and Angel... what is the difference. Its only a different name. Flaming Chariot/UFO  Flying Shield/Flying Saucer...  What's in a name?

Lots.  The term "angel," applies to a fairly specific class of beings, in my book; and usually also implies a fair degree of benevolence as well, although the Saturnine angels in particular have a somewhat roundabout way of expressing it, shall we say.

I'm also not terribly inclined to view the Tall Whites as friendly, from what little I've read about them.  Bad vibes.  As always, however, the Law of Correspondence applies.  If you're getting Machiavellian ETs visiting you in the middle of the night, it might be worth meditating on the ethical choices you've been making lately.

QuoteThat would make all the Ancient Gods real

As far as I am concerned, they are.  I consider different pantheons analogous to different national governments; and usually the psychopomp of each group serves as its' diplomat.

Body count of God vs Satan

G old
O il
D rugs

Billions die for thee above.

but the bible reports Using biblical numbers only: 2,821,364 killed

Satans death count is something like maybe 60.

Whoa, who's da big time killer here.

God shoved a hybrid type guy in a garden for amusements and later tore out a rib and made a "wo man", like in wo man look at that gurl. God told the two some, not to putz with those trees over there or else. He didn't say why or what, just don't fritzle with them over there. THAT, my friends is temptation cause you all know to tell a human that, will surely get them to become curious and wanna check it out.

Later on.....

Satan does nothing but lounges in the trees and goes pssst, go ahead, eat and yee shall become as gods.

Is that a crime. It is if you are naive to the spell you are under as to the body count.

The biblical death toll http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html (http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html)

Now for some pictures:

(http://s9.postimg.org/z64c3s4jj/ta_dah.jpg)


(http://s16.postimg.org/f343iir7p/death_toll.jpg)

Gigas 

Gold and a thank you for putting it all in perspective  ;D 8)


especially this part

Gigas, your numbers are pretty puny, as you have left out the billions of people who are going to die during prophetic last days of this Earth. You can find that explained in the Bible book of Revelation. Read it, then you can also add those numbers to your counts. Of course, at that time, the Church will have already been raptured out of here, so you won't be counting any of God's people for that then either! God does take care of those who are His!!! :) †††

Oh, but you do need to make one other computation change - satan IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL SICKNESS AND DISEASE and the associated deaths, and satan is also responsible for all deaths of natural causes too. So, when you figure out what those numbers are over the past several thousand years (hundreds of millions or billions of people), then you will get a quite huge number for your SILLY totals for satan caused deaths! :))

Quote from: rdunk on August 16, 2015, 07:10:20 PM
Oh, but you do need to make one other computation change - satan IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL SICKNESS AND DISEASE and the associated deaths, and satan is also responsible for all deaths of natural causes too.

He is? ???

QuoteBillions die for thee above.

If you created a group of life forms, let's just make them virtual and you gave them free will and gave them sentience. Lets just say they meant a lot to you.

If they "died" what would that mean? You do have the pattern you can bring them back.

Now suppose instead they have an energy pattern that exists independent of the material form and they die...what would that mean to you?

In other words you have understanding that nothing dies, we see and think so small our lives are an instant and for all we know death is a really good part of life.

Quote from: rdunk on August 16, 2015, 07:10:20 PM
Gigas, your numbers are pretty puny, as you have left out the billions of people who are going to die during prophetic last days of this Earth. You can find that explained in the Bible book of Revelation. Read it, then you can also add those numbers to your counts. Of course, at that time, the Church will have already been raptured out of here, so you won't be counting any of God's people for that then either! God does take care of those who are His!!! :) †††

Oh, but you do need to make one other computation change - satan IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL SICKNESS AND DISEASE and the associated deaths, and satan is also responsible for all deaths of natural causes too. So, when you figure out what those numbers are over the past several thousand years (hundreds of millions or billions of people), then you will get a quite huge number for your SILLY totals for satan caused deaths! :))

First, those are not my numbers but the numbers from the unholy babble.

Satan, from the unholy babble reports, this is his, and jesus can have some of it, if he were to bow to uncle satan, right now. That's from the unholy babble.

Then we have the dual personality God or Jesus or who'm ever he claims to be, playing games with himself as satan. They torture poor job by killing his family, blowing up his house, giving him boils all over his weather beaten body. anyway, the duo gods show what the games all about, POWER over the mortal souls who worship a killer(s). I put an S in ( ) cause god and satan are the same player.

Humans are expendable and mean nothing to these power hungry god. The whole things a lie built on promises, hope and faith, deception and more lies from the secret builders of the human race. By the way, where is the absentee god now days; can anyone tell us.

Quote from: rdunk on August 16, 2015, 07:10:20 PM
Gigas, your numbers are pretty puny, as you have left out the billions of people who are going to die during prophetic last days of this Earth.

"Going to" doesn't count for a record of actual events :P

QuoteYou can find that explained in the Bible book of Revelation. Read it, then you can also add those numbers to your counts.

So you are agreeing that GOD is a mass murderer... thanks for clearing that up  8)

QuoteOf course, at that time, the Church will have already been raptured out of here, so you won't be counting any of God's people for that then either! God does take care of those who are His!!! :) †††

He does? So you mean all those 250,000 killed in the Sumatra Tsunami were not God's people? Hmmm must be a select group of Chosen Ones then  Look you are welcome to believe your fairy tale if it works for you... but it doesn't work for me :D

QuoteOh, but you do need to make one other computation change - satan IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL SICKNESS AND DISEASE and the associated deaths, and satan is also responsible for all deaths of natural causes too.

NO! He is NOT because God created NATURE not SATAN. Stop being a sheep and blaming him for what the other guy does.  This kind of logic is why I fight

QuoteSo, when you figure out what those numbers are over the past several thousand years (hundreds of millions or billions of people), then you will get a quite huge number for your SILLY totals for satan caused deaths! :))

Where is it quoted in the Bible that SATAN causes natural disasters? You cannot just make stuff up. There is not even ONE serious preacher out there that will claim SATAN make Tsunamis. So show me the passage that says SATAN kills by Nature

WHO was it that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah by Fire and Brimstone (Nuke :P )?
WHO was it that brought pestilence (disease) on the Egyptians?
WHO was it that created the FLOOD (Natural disaster) that wiped out all life on Earth (save a few critters)?

Worship if you must this God of Death but get your facts straight first :P


And what about the UNICORNS?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EPsuOEH1fY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EPsuOEH1fY

Gigas, your post above simply reflects an extreme ignorance of what the Word of God in the Bible teaches!  :o :o :o If you would seriously read and study the Bible, you likely would see things a bit different. You might start with reading/studying the New Testament, as that is where Jesus is presented - start with Matthew chapter 1, and go through Revelation. Otherwise.................!!  Good luck!

rdunk, could you please tell me how "satan is also responsible for all deaths of natural causes too"?

ArMaP, through Adam's sin satan brought death into the world, and everything that is related to death. Because of satan, as soon a someone is born, they are on the road to dying. Because of satan, all life on the planet is dying. but that all is going to change - "Death is swallowed up in victory"!

!Cor 15:
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Quote from: rdunk on August 17, 2015, 12:30:28 AM
Gigas, your post above simply reflects an extreme ignorance of what the Word of God in the Bible teaches!  :o :o :o If you would seriously read and study the Bible, you likely would see things a bit different. You might start with reading/studying the New Testament, as that is where Jesus is presented - start with Matthew chapter 1, and go through Revelation. Otherwise.................!!  Good luck!

My post is relevant and righteous to the false teachings of men in the name of some obscure ghost of a god.


The real extreme ignorance of the unholy babble is all those words of god were written by men with facial tics that quivered as they feverishly sweated out an agenda to enslave the flock for fleecing. And do they ever fleece the flock. As a matter a fact the flock loves to be fleeced. Nothing more appalling than men who need a crutch for their lack of self righteousness. Ye are as gods, or, are men that ignorant and afraid to live by their own free will. See, free will is the catch all for those who refuse the indoctrination to the faiths. There it is, take it on faith, which I will not.

Religion, simply a prison for men's minds and wallets. OBEY the will of your god or suffer. Funny thing is, the will of the gods is the will of the flock fleecers who keep the dream alive by scripture from the unholy babble. It's for the rabble who don't know any better than to be fleeced over and over and over.

If I were to label myself right now, it would be GNOSTIC. Yes, i'm Gnostic and don't need a book to tell me how to live because I already know what this is.

So lets see how the men of the clothe get their flocks to fleecing. Jim and Tammy Baker took millions from their flock. And the flock loved it. Oral Roberts wanted 2.5 million or there abouts sighting god was going to take him if he didn't get that amount. Well, he missed his mark by a million or so and guess what, his god forgot all about him and he lived happily ever after.

Lets not forget gods man of the hour Jimmy Swaggert wimpering all over the TV about Jessica  Hahn and all the cash he needed to keep her quiet cause you know god don't like this poop to get around so pay the victims off to keep the charade moving.

Now we got that reverend Creflo Dollar fleecing the flock for a new 6.5 million jet aircraft so he fly around spreading his word for the untapped flocks.

Religion is a dirty business and any man who needs a god to stand on his own two feet should surrender to the Devil for the Devil owns this. That's what it says in the unholy babble written by men high on mushrooms and crack smoke in dark hot caves.

Edit to ad this video that every christian should watch  till it becomes clear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpaRouocBes

Quote from: rdunk on August 17, 2015, 02:08:39 AM
ArMaP, through Adam's sin satan brought death into the world, and everything that is related to death.

So, Adam, created by god, sinned against god's orders by doing what Satan (created by god) said, and that makes Satan the responsible?

Did god punished Satan? Did god punish Adam?

(https://scontent.flas1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/11826017_939983592732496_4812773959242589161_n.jpg?oh=09ce5f3e85cef853e4ecb4557f9d18d1&oe=563DEB64)

Quote from: rdunk on August 17, 2015, 12:30:28 AM
If you would seriously read and study the Bible, you likely would see things a bit different.

I have read the Bible... I often use quotes from that Book of Stories to make my point... the difference is that I do not get the same interpretation as you do... 

You get asked a question,,, and like a good little flock member you quote some scripture out of that book that is meaningless to anyone not indoctrinated to your point of view. Sometimes it seems that Christians cannot answer a straight question without tossing verses out...

What they don't understand is that those verses do not help for someone who considers it a fairy tale...

Cain MURDERED Able... but for that crime he was merely sent away to marry a woman and become ruler of her people...  WTF?  Really? Hmmmm  I see a whole lot of issues with that scene

I also have a problem with Incest being the norm back in those days and now it is a sin... Seems things change for convenience to explain stuff

QuoteYou might start with reading/studying the New Testament, as that is where Jesus is presented - start with Matthew chapter 1, and go through Revelation. Otherwise.................!!  Good luck!

My favorite part of your Book is when Jesus says to his 12 disciples  that to them he speaks plainly, but to EVERYONE ELSE he speaks in riddles so that hearing they do not understand....

Seems that has worked pretty good for 2000 years :D

And one more thing... since Adam and Eve were only created around 4000 BCish... How did two Caucasians manage to be the ancestors of Blacks Reds and Yellows etc in such a short time?

Point me to the scripture that shows were the races came from  I must have missed it

And Behold!!! The Waters turned Blood Red!!!

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02410/algae-mother-child_2410926k.jpg)

    " You get asked a question,,, and like a good little flock member you quote some scripture out of that book that is meaningless to anyone not indoctrinated to your point of view. Sometimes it seems that Christians cannot answer a straight question without tossing verses out..."

Those verses are all they have.. That's it. That's the lot.. Stories written by people to try and make sense of life. A one stop shop of easy answers and rules . That's the only place they can turn to justify thier frankly twisted fairytales.

Remember Jack Nicholson shouting " YOU WANT THE TRUTH?.. YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH "
Well that's what religion is for.
So it doesn't hurt when you ask the big questions.
Just read your Bible, It does it all for you.

Its Actually anti-Philosophy, anti history, anti science, anti Paleontology,
anti existentialism.

Anti EVERYTHING that might move us forward into some form of enlightenment.

Religion and your god whoever his name is, has his hands around our ankles,
while we try to swim.

Quote from: ArMaP on August 17, 2015, 08:55:34 AM
So, Adam, created by god, sinned against god's orders by doing what Satan (created by god) said, and that makes Satan the responsible?

Did god punished Satan? Did god punish Adam?

ArMaP, the answer to your questions is "yes", and very much so!

In Genesis 3, the term "serpent" is used in describing the deception of Adam and Eve - several terms are used in scriptures to denote "satan". For example, Rev 12:9 uses several of them together - "9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him".

And the serpent's lying deception was, as noted in Genesis 3:

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And the scriptures in Genesis 3 specifically describe the punishment of Adam, Eve, and the serpent.

To the serpent - 14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


To Eve God said -16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.


To Adam God said -17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.


And God drove out the man from the Garden of Eden -  22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.


So, the real gist of man's punishment was, the woman was going to suffer severe pain during childbirth, and the man was going to have to toil and work hard for his food from the ground. But for man and woman, the greatest harm was as God had declared - "they were going to die", because the had eaten from the forbidden tree. Adam and eve, and all of their descendants (including allof us) were meant to live forever - God told Adam he could eat from every tree of the Garden, and that included the "Tree of Life", and that was taken away!

Such a shame for all of man - but God has made a way for overcoming that stinking mess with His sacrifice of His Son Jesus, who is now, by his death, burial, and resurrection, our "TREE OF LIFE"! :)

ArMaP, I do hope that this answers your questions about this!

Then how about this version :)

QuoteIn the treatise The Apocalypse of Adam, the Gnostics presented us with a scripture that tells not only of Seth (and his father) but of the future of the esoteric tradition of gnosis in ages to come. It begins:

The disclosure given by Adam to his son Seth in his seven hundredth year. And he said: "Listen to my words, my son Seth. When God created me out of the earth, along with Eve your mother, I went along with her in a glory which she had seen in the aeon from which she came forth. She taught me the word of Gnosis of the eternal God. And we resembled the great eternal angels, for we were higher than the God who created us."

After thus informing us once again of the spiritually superior status of Eve, the scripture goes on to recount how the creator turned against Adam and Eve, robbing them of their glory and their knowledge. Humans now served the creator "in fear and in slavery," so Adam stated. While previously immortal, Adam now knew that his days were numbered. Therefore, he said he now wanted to pass on what he knew to Seth and his descendants.

http://gnosis.org/genesis.html

Funny I feel no need to worry over any of it, even though I enjoy reading and researching all of the various information.

Religion is a disease, consuming the mind, eating away the soul, invoking madness.

It chains the victims to it's control system where the lost soul becomes enamored by its written word that you are nothing and there is a powerful hidden maker, which by the way, has never been seen, yet, demands you worship it only on faith.

The dawn of man, your early ancestors Adam and Eve ate a fruit in the garden where they were told not to touch that over there and now you, and everyone after you, shall suffer for what they did. Would you do that to your children and than hold it against them for the rest of their precious lives inflicting pain and suffering while claiming you love them.

Would you demand those children to worship you as you continue to punish them as you insist, from a book, you are a just and loving god as the little flock of ignorant people must pay for what two idiots of fiction did long ago.

Seriously, what the hell is wrong with people.

Quote from: rdunk on August 17, 2015, 05:10:48 PM
Such a shame for all of man -

THIS is my problem with your Death Cult :P

There is no way a LOVING GOD would punish an entire species for thousands of years because ONE woman stole an apple...

If you want to blindly obey such a petty, spiteful malevolent Deity that is your choice... you are free to worship in FEAR...

To me a God that needs to be feared is no God but a Devil

I have Ferret... they are like kids and sometime get into trouble... I do not punish all Ferrets because one got onto a table and broke an expensive vase that I left out where they could get at it

Your Apple story is like that  Your Deity left the tree out there where it could be gotten at. He could have put a fence around it but no

When a Ferret gets ill, like the one that yesterday caught his claw in a hammock and his pae and leg got swollen, we were sad  and did what we could to help him. It is better today  the swelling is down... but we have to care for them, they cannot fend for themselves  We have to provide food because letting them hunt for food in the city is not an option...

Your Deity thinks its cool to drop man naked into a world where he can freeze his nuts off  literally. What kind of a God gets his jollies from that?

QuoteGigas

The dawn of man, your early ancestors Adam and Eve ate a fruit in the garden where they were told not to touch that over there and now you, and everyone after you, shall suffer for what they did. Would you do that to your children and than hold it against them for the rest of their precious lives inflicting pain and suffering while claiming you love them.

Would you demand those children to worship you as you continue to punish them as you insist, from a book, you are a just and loving god as the little flock of ignorant people must pay for what two idiots of fiction did long ago.

Yup exactly that...

I had a group of Baptists ( I think) work the street.  The one gal that came up to my house was kinda cute :P So I took a minute to listen.  She explained to me how I had to join their religion so I would be saved because God was about to destroy the Earth

I asked her why would I worship a god that is about to destroy everything I cherish?

She looked at me dumb founded... she had no answer. 

I told her to come back when she could answer that... I never saw her again :P

Quote from: Dyna on August 17, 2015, 05:12:39 PM
Funny I feel no need to worry over any of it, even though I enjoy reading and researching all of the various information.

I always enjoyed Religious discussions and in my years I have spoken to many top people in many religions... Oddly enough the ones in higher positions tend to be easier to talk to and DO NOT try to convert you  not ONE... I have spoken with Monsigneurs, Imams, Rabbis, Mormon elders and even once a few minutes with the Dalai Lama back in Toronto

All of them calmly answered questions, not one took offence or got angry and not one tried to convert me :D

QuoteThen how about this version :)

QuoteI went along with her in a glory which she had seen in the aeon from which she came forth. She taught me the word of Gnosis of the eternal God. And we resembled the great eternal angels, for we were higher than the God who created us."

So Adam was 700 years old and they took a ride in a GLORY and flew higher than the Angels

(http://alien-ufo-research.com/images/ancient/christufoinlarge.jpg)

It is so easy to interpret these old works in modern terminology :P

Remember the NASA Christian engineer that set out to disprove the Exekial Spacecraft? He ended up proving it was one :P

Quote from: Gigas on August 17, 2015, 05:41:27 PM
Religion is a disease, consuming the mind, eating away the soul, invoking madness.

It chains the victims to it's control system where the lost soul becomes enamored by its written word that you are nothing and there is a powerful hidden maker, which by the way, has never been seen, yet, demands you worship it only on faith.

The dawn of man, your early ancestors Adam and Eve ate a fruit in the garden where they were told not to touch that over there and now you, and everyone after you, shall suffer for what they did. Would you do that to your children and than hold it against them for the rest of their precious lives inflicting pain and suffering while claiming you love them.

Would you demand those children to worship you as you continue to punish them as you insist, from a book, you are a just and loving god as the little flock of ignorant people must pay for what two idiots of fiction did long ago.

Seriously, what the hell is wrong with people.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D at you - look in the mirror for answers to some of your questions/thoughts.!

Quote from: rdunk on August 17, 2015, 05:10:48 PM
ArMaP, I do hope that this answers your questions about this!

It does, thanks. :)

But I have another question, if you don't mind: in your opinion, which is the worse punishment, Satan's, Adam's or Eve's?

Zorgon said, Your Apple story is like that  Your Deity left the tree out there where it could be gotten at. He could have put a fence around it but no"

"Apple story"? Z, since you "have read the Bible", as you say, I assume that you would know by fact, there is no "apple story" relative to the Garden of Eden in the Bible book of Genesis. The word "apple" is mentioned 11 times in the Bible, but never in relation to what happened in Genesis.

Of course, we all should know that eating an apple does not result in our gaining/knowing anything more than we knew before we ate it. So, the "fruit" of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which was the forbidden tree, could not have been an apple tree as we know it, ie, it was a "tree of knowledge". Obviously, the fruit was edible, and, Gen 3:6 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat,

As a matter of interest, the 3 specific areas of sin in the world are noted in 1 John 2:16,

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

So all sin can be categorized into these three specific areas, and it is worth noting that Eve's statement of "the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise" covered all three of them! (same for when satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness 3 times - lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life)

Note*****and don't worry, I am not personally bothered when anyone shares their negative thoughts about God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and Christianity. Because of my faith, I do have compassion for any such, but debating various scriptures of the Bible is not a productive adventure. I will answer questions (if I can :)  ) anytime if they are interest based!

And Z, you have asked the question many times about how many animals went on the ark, and I have answered it at least once in the distant past. It seems the confusion for some relates to it being mentioned by God twice within just a few verses - First God said in Genesis 6:19-20 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive. Here God saying bring them in by 2's means a male and a female of each.

Then 3 scriptures later, God goes ahead and tells Noah how many total pairs of each type of the animals he wants brought into the ark - Gen 7:2-3  Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

I am not certain why any one thinks the Ark was filled with just 2 of each animal, other than hearing about it from someone who hasn't read what the Bible actually says about it! I guess that is the way it is for lots of folks! :)

THIS is the kind of email I get LOL

So I guess its all over because the Bible says so :D


The Bible Warns: Obama Will Not Finish His 2nd  Term

http://www.enddayssurvival.com/report/1/9/104693/15325998/

Quote from: rdunk on August 17, 2015, 08:13:18 PM
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D at you - look in the mirror for answers to some of your questions/thoughts.!

Christians in denial, will do that to you

Quote from: rdunk on August 17, 2015, 09:44:21 PM
"Apple story"? Z, since you "have read the Bible", as you say, I assume that you would know by fact, there is no "apple story" relative to the Garden of Eden in the Bible book of Genesis. The word "apple" is mentioned 11 times in the Bible, but never in relation to what happened in Genesis.

Of course there is!  That is why men have Adam's Apple stuck in their throat and ALL the religious paintings show an Apple (just like they show UFO's :P )

(http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/1375385213_j1YD5gGREuJhgOXa0fcY_adam_and_eve_.jpg)

QuoteOf course, we all should know that eating an apple does not result in our gaining/knowing anything more than we knew before we ate it.

Well today eating Apples keeps the Doctor Away and a smart kid gives the teacher an Apple... so....  but I do believe it is FISH that is the brain food :D

QuoteSo, the "fruit" of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which was the forbidden tree, could not have been an apple tree as we know it, ie, it was a "tree of knowledge". Obviously, the fruit was edible, and, Gen 3:6 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat,

Well it is equally possible that there was no 'fruit' at all and it was just a metaphor, like the "tree of life" is actually our DNA that we know has been blocked

Quote from: rdunk on August 17, 2015, 09:44:21 PM
As a matter of interest, the 3 specific areas of sin in the world are noted in 1 John 2:16,

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

So all sin can be categorized into these three specific areas, and it is worth noting that Eve's statement of "the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise" covered all three of them! (same for when satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness 3 times - lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life)

Ah yes LUST of the FLESH

Since we were 'created' to reproduce by fornication, and the act is pleasant to us so that we would wish to procreate... HOW does it make ANY SENCE to say God created us that way and then make it a sin to enjoy it?  Seriously? If we did not enjoy it, it would mean the end of the species.

This SIN of the flesh has to be one of the stupidest things in religion. No wonder Muslims are out breeding the Christians.. because they think there version of God commands them to use women as sex toys whenever they wish while Christians consider it a sin...

We reproduce by having SEX... our physical makeup is such that certain parts of our body stimulate the pleasure sensors of the brains so that we WANT to procreate... IF as you say your God made us (in his own image :P ) then WHY would it be a Sin to do what is natural?

Muslims and others cut off parts.. can't have women enjoying sex now can we?  Now how did that become "Godly?"  If God din't want you to enjoy sex  WHY did he make the parts that make you enjoy sex?

Do you REALLY not see how ludicrous this is? Are you truly that blinded?  Sigh... I guess so  :P

QuoteNote*****and don't worry, I am not personally bothered when anyone shares their negative thoughts about God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and Christianity. Because of my faith, I do have compassion for any such, but debating various scriptures of the Bible is not a productive adventure. I will answer questions (if I can :)  ) anytime if they are interest based!

Good to hear :D  I have no issues with what ANYONE wishes to believe... so long as they respect MY right to believe as I choose

QuoteAnd Z, you have asked the question many times about how many animals went on the ark, and I have answered it at least once in the distant past. It seems the confusion for some relates to it being mentioned by God twice within just a few verses - First God said in Genesis 6:19-20 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive. Here God saying bring them in by 2's means a male and a female of each.

Yes that is the BOARDING ORDER :P in pairs :D  And sorry I never saw you answer this

QuoteThen 3 scriptures later, God goes ahead and tells Noah how many total pairs of each type of the animals he wants brought into the ark - Gen 7:2-3  Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

Yes but it seems to depend on which modern version you read  there are some differences  I use King James as that is the common one today so yes 7 PAIRS because the female was not counted other than a male and his mate  so 14 of each clean beast 4 of each unclean beast is correct. And that IS a more viable number to keep the seed alive biologically speaking

HOWEVER  The given dimensions of the Ark do not have enough room for that many of each animal in the world which is several THOUSAND species many of which like Elephants and Rhinos are huge  Do the math   Unless God shrank them all it doesn't fit

QuoteI am not certain why any one thinks the Ark was filled with just 2 of each animal, other than hearing about it from someone who hasn't read what the Bible actually says about it! I guess that is the way it is for lots of folks! :)

That is simple... That is what they teach in Sunday School... that is what is taught in most churches. In fact I have NEVER heard ONE Christian outside of Pegasus EVER say more than two of each

Do a test...  ask some Christians :D  Maybe you can tell THEM to read the book they before they preach

Here are a few

How Many Animals of Each Kind did Noah Take into the Ark?

QuoteAsk most children who are somewhat familiar with the biblical account of the Flood how many animals of each kind Noah took into the ark, and the answer you likely will hear is, "Two!" These Bible students are familiar with the instructions recorded in Genesis 6:19 that God gave to Noah: "And of every living thing of all flesh you shall bring two of every sort into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female" (Genesis 6:19, emp. added; cf. 7:15). It seems that fewer people, however, are aware that God also instructed Noah, saying, "You shall take with you seven each of every clean animal, a male and his female; two each of animals that are unclean, a male and his female; also seven each of birds of the air, male and female, to keep the species alive on the face of all the earth" (Genesis 7:2-3, emp. added). According to Bible critics, these verses are contradictory. "Are clean beasts to enter by 2's or by 7's?" asked skeptic Dennis McKinsey (1983, p. 1).

To answer McKinsey's question, the clean beasts and birds entered the ark "by sevens" (KJV), while the unclean animals went into the ark by twos. There is no contradiction here. Genesis 6:19 indicates that Noah was to take "two of every sort into the ark." Then, four verses later, God supplemented this original instruction, informing Noah in a more detailed manner to take more of the clean animals. It was necessary for Noah to take additional clean animals because, upon his departure from the ark after the Flood, he "built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the alter" (Genesis 8:20). If Noah had taken only two clean animals from which to choose when sacrificing to God after departing the ark, then he would have driven the various kinds of clean beasts and birds into extinction by sacrificing one of each pair. Thus, after God told Noah to take two of every kind of animal into the ark, He then instructed him to take extras of the clean animals. Similar to how Genesis chapter 2 supplements the first chapter of Genesis by giving a more detailed account of the Creation (see Lyons, 2002), the first portion of Genesis 7 merely supplements the end of the preceding chapter, "containing several particulars of a minute description which were not embraced in the general directions first given to Noah" (Jamieson, et al., 1997).

https://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=6&article=656

Now even here he highlights SEVEN  missing the point that seven PAIRS is FOURTEEN

This one is even weirder  Seems Christians cannot agree on the numbers :D

(This is why I ask it so often ;) )

I love this one because it includes Dinosaurs and says not all animals needed to get on the ark :P

How Many Animals Were on the Ark?

QuoteHow Many Animals Were on the Ark?
By Craig von Buseck
CBN.com Contributing Writer
      

CBN.com – The Bible tells us that God brought the animals to the ark, two by two:

Bring a pair of every kind of animal—a male and a female—into the boat with you to keep them alive during the flood. Pairs of every kind of bird, and every kind of animal, and every kind of small animal that scurries along the ground, will come to you to be kept alive. And be sure to take on board enough food for your family and for all the animals. So Noah did everything exactly as God had commanded him. (Gen. 6:19-22, NLT)

According to World Book Encyclopedia, "So far scientists have named and classified more than 1 1/2 million animals. Over half of these are types of insects and other species are discovered each year. Scientists believe there may be from 2 million to as many as 50 million kinds of animals alive today." However, the vast majority of these are capable of surviving in water and would not have needed to be brought aboard the ark.

In their book, The Genesis Flood, Doctors Morris and Whitcomb say that only 35,000 individual animals needed to go on the ark. John Woodmorappe, the author of Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study, believes that an even smaller number of animals would have been transported upon the ark. Woodmorappe explains that the word "specie" is not equivalent to the "created kinds" of the Genesis account, so as few as 2,000 animals may have been required on the ark.

ChristianAnswers.net explains that as many as 50,000 animals (including creatures that may now be extinct) could have fit on board the ark. These would not have needed to be the largest or even adult specimens.

They point out that there are really only a few very large animals, such as the dinosaur or the elephant, and these could be represented by young ones. "Assuming the average animal to be about the size of a sheep and using a railroad car for comparison, we note that the average double-deck stock car can accommodate 240 sheep. Thus, three trains hauling 69 cars each would have ample space to carry the 50,000 animals, filling only 37 percent of the ark. This would leave an additional 361 cars or enough to make 5 trains of 72 cars each to carry all of the food and baggage plus Noah's family of eight people."

We know that most animals possess the ability to sense danger and to move to a place of safety. In recent natural disasters, scientists have noticed that animals have migrated to safety, ensuring that a vast number of them survived. In the time of Noah, God had two air-breathing land animals of every kind travel to the very spot where Noah was building the ark just before the flood came. Some believe that this may have involved an intensification of animal migratory instincts.

QuoteThe Genesis passage clearly states that God gathered the animals and brought them to Noah inside the ark two by two.

When everything was ready, the Lord said to Noah, "Go into the boat with all your family, for among all the people of the earth, I can see that you alone are righteous. Take with you seven pairs—male and female—of each animal I have approved for eating and for sacrifice, and take one pair of each of the others. Also take seven pairs of every kind of bird. There must be a male and a female in each pair to ensure that all life will survive on the earth after the flood. Seven days from now I will make the rains pour down on the earth. And it will rain for forty days and forty nights, until I have wiped from the earth all the living things I have created." So Noah did everything as the Lord commanded him. Noah was 600 years old when the flood covered the earth. He went on board the boat to escape the flood—he and his wife and his sons and their wives. With them were all the various kinds of animals—those approved for eating and for sacrifice and those that were not—along with all the birds and the small animals that scurry along the ground. They entered the boat in pairs, male and female, just as God had commanded Noah. (Gen. 7:1-9)

Craig von  BuseckCraig von Buseck is a published author, popular speaker and a contributing writer for CBN.com. He holds a Doctor of Ministry and an MA in Religious Journalism from Regent University. His most recent book by Regal Publishers, Praying the News, was co-written by CBN News anchor Wendy Griffith.

http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/BibleStudyAndTheology/Discipleship/Noah-HowManyAnimals.aspx

So if Christians cannot get THIS simple question right how can we mere mortal atheists ever get it?

Quote from: zorgon on August 17, 2015, 09:32:09 AM
(https://scontent.flas1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/11826017_939983592732496_4812773959242589161_n.jpg?oh=09ce5f3e85cef853e4ecb4557f9d18d1&oe=563DEB64)

The only thing that atheists really demonstrate with images like these, is their own unresolved pain.  I repeat what I said in my earlier post; as long as you hate something, you will never be free of it.  I've come to consider New Atheism a branch of the political Left.  One of the main characteristics of said Left in my experience, is an absolute refusal to take any responsibility whatsoever, for any aspect of who they are; and that especially includes their refusal to control their emotions, or even to recognise that their emotions belong to them.  They prefer to view their own emotional reactions as exclusively being caused by someone else.

Quote from: petrus4 on August 17, 2015, 11:48:52 PM
The only thing that atheists really demonstrate with images like these, is their own unresolved pain.

A) its humor :P
B) I am not an Atheist...
C) There is no pain in trying to educate some people to my reality :P

QuoteI repeat what I said in my earlier post; as long as you hate something, you will never be free of it.

A) I hate nothing or no one... :P until they prove themselves worthy of scorn or spite :D
B) I was 'free of it several incarnations ago

::)

Now how is it a bad thing to want to share reality from someone who has been there? Many people in this day and age have crossed over and returned, or been reincarnated. But the Book Thumpers of all religions do not want to listen to those people... because it goes against their pet belief.

I have one advantage though... I KNOW that it doesn't matter what they choose to believe... because in the end soon enough they will wake up from the grave and KNOW the truth...

Then next time around THEY get to tell the tale :D

QuoteI've come to consider New Atheism a branch of the political Left.  One of the main characteristics of said Left in my experience, is an absolute refusal to take any responsibility whatsoever, for any aspect of who they are; and that especially includes their refusal to control their emotions, or even to recognise that their emotions belong to them.  They prefer to view their own emotional reactions as exclusively being caused by someone else.

Well so far its been a pretty quiet exchange  I don't see a lot of emotions and egos conversing with baseball bats :P

Quote from: zorgon on August 18, 2015, 01:37:45 AM
I have one advantage though... I KNOW that it doesn't matter what they choose to believe... because in the end soon enough they will wake up from the grave and KNOW the truth...

That's the problem, some people are sure that they KNOW for themselves, other people are sure that they KNOW because a book told them so, so while people think they KNOW they will always think all the others are wrong.

Me, I just have an opinion. It may be right or wrong, but it's just an opinion. :)

Quote from: ArMaP on August 18, 2015, 08:52:10 AM
Me, I just have an opinion. It may be right or wrong, but it's just an opinion. :)

That is as it should be  Reading a book can give you an opinion.. but experiences will let you KNOW

There are many on here who have had such experiences and KNOW...

So why would people that only have an opinion, not listen to them?

::)

Quote from: zorgon on August 18, 2015, 11:50:41 AM
There are many on here who have had such experiences and KNOW...

So why would people that only have an opinion, not listen to them?

::)

Listen, yes, consider it the truth, no, as what those people think they KNOW is a result of their interpretation of their experiences. :)

Quote from: ArMaP on August 18, 2015, 01:19:18 PM
Listen, yes, consider it the truth, no, as what those people think they KNOW is a result of their interpretation of their experiences. :)

Yes, ArMaP, I agree with you on this point. Experiences/NDE's can go in various directions, some having heavenly experiences, some having experiences of hell, and some having experiences not much related to reality.

Another point on this, "reading a book" is just reading a book! Even reading the Bible, while being informative, is still just reading a book -  it is not life changing.............until one sees just enough in the scriptures to understand that Jesus gave his life that man could again be a part of the family of God, and have eternal life. When a person accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior, then what is said in that book becomes alive to us, with the understanding that love and faith are God-given to us - so that we can now live our lives here in a different way, with Him. The circumstances of this Earth remain the same, but as Christians, they no longer control our destiny.

There are much misunderstanding by many about those who are Christian! Christians are forgiven from all sin, and saved for eternity, but, Christians still live and walk in the same sinful fleshly bodies, which are still subject to the assaults of the evil one. As we grow in the Word, we can become better prepared to "resist the devil". There is a scripture that tells us to "take every thought captive", because often our thoughts can be the beginning of sinful acts. But there is nothing greater than the forgiveness of God and his love for each of us! :))             

Quote from: rdunk on August 18, 2015, 05:14:17 PM
Another point on this, "reading a book" is just reading a book! Even reading the Bible, while being informative, is still just reading a book -  it is not life changing.............until one sees just enough in the scriptures to understand that Jesus gave his life that man could again be a part of the family of God, and have eternal life.

That can happen regardless of reading a book or not, and, again, it's the result of accepting something as being an absolute truth.

I don't go that way. :)

Quote from: ArMaP on August 18, 2015, 06:22:48 PM

I don't go that way. :)

Yes ArMaP, and you and so so many others,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,always until really finding God, and then "going that way"!! :))

Quote from: rdunk on August 18, 2015, 08:12:04 PM
Yes ArMaP, and you and so so many others,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,always until really finding God, and then "going that way"!! :))

It's possible, but don't hold your breath. :)

So no answer to my procreation question hmmm?

::)

Well here is a new Stairway to Heaven :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLVQtaZQdR4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLVQtaZQdR4

Quote from: zorgon on August 18, 2015, 09:31:44 PM
So no answer to my procreation question hmmm?

::)

:)) Hey Z, I have no questions about "procreation" and God's way for the procreation of man to be accomplished. God does make it quite clear how he expects populating the Earth to be done, and most everyone pretty much knows how that is to be done too. Yes, keeping procreation within the bounds of husband and wife is the way he requires it, and has a commandment that says "do not commit adultery". He does expect man to be something higher than animals in this regard, and yes, there are several Biblical accounts of his actions in this regard, including the great flood, and Sodom and Gomorrah.

Sure, our fleshly minds (satan) can try to get us to do all sorts of sinful things, but, we can resist those if we choose to. But God is God, and he gets to make the deal, for us to accept or reject, as he did pay the price in the sacrifice of his Son, so that we could be forgiven................. for the mistakes we have made!

Quote from: rdunk on August 19, 2015, 12:02:04 AM
... Saddam and Gamorrah.

Shouldn't it be Sodom and Gomorrah?

Quote from: ArMaP on August 19, 2015, 12:07:57 AM
Shouldn't it be Sodom and Gomorrah?

Sure, that is what I said!! .................... :)) Thanks, I had depended upon spell check - I correctrd it!!