Pegasus Research Consortium

Quote from: zorgon on July 04, 2012, 12:11:27 AM
Can you tell me why [ATS does not allow the sensible discussion of drug use]?

From what I have seen, it's because some people cannot have a serious discussion about it without starting to promote the use. I have seen some threads starting with intelligent discussion about some topic slightly related to drugs and ending in a wall of "legalize it" propaganda.

It looks like there are more drug users (per capita, obviously) in the USA and Canada than in Portugal, where we had a big drug problem (resulting in a big AIDS problem) that was controlled with the decriminalizing of drug use.

Quote from: ArMaP on July 04, 2012, 01:59:52 AM
It looks like there are more drug users (per capita, obviously) in the USA and Canada than in Portugal, where we had a big drug problem (resulting in a big AIDS problem) that was controlled with the decriminalizing of drug use.

How dare you suggest that decriminalising drug use could be good.  How liberal of you.  I should consider a ban you lefty. :D

Quote from: Pimander on July 04, 2012, 11:08:08 AM
How dare you suggest that decriminalising drug use could be good. 

Well case studies show that the right mind altering drugs can free your mind... I hear he is feeling MUCH better now

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zABxJjGIDkU/SxBCl0LjRdI/AAAAAAAAA40/GneQw2j-7Hc/s1600/lobotomy.jpg)

In every country where use has been decriminalised health problems related to drug use have improved.  That doesn't mean recreational drug use is good for you but it  does mean that decriminalisation is good for society.

There does seem to be one drug that IS good for You...  [impish grin]

It:

• Cures cancer
• Treats Alzheimer's
• Treats stress
• Treats glaucoma
• Treats anorexia
• Treats ADD & ADHD
• Treats multiple sclerosis
• Treats asthma
• Treats insomnia
• Treats depression
• Treats anxiety
• Treats pain
• Treats epilepsy
• Treats nausea
• Treats Parkinsons Disease
• Treats hangovers
• Treats schizophrenia
• Treats migraines
• Treats diabetes
• Treats muscle spasms
• Treats obsessive/compulsive disorder
• Treats herpes (topically)
• Treats emphysema
• Treats autism
• Treats digestive disorders
• Treats PTSD
• Treats bipolar disorder
• Treats pregnancy discomforts
• Treats palmar hyperhidrosis
• Treats Crohn's Disease
• Treats Tourette's Syndrome
• Treats itching (pruritus)
• Treats ALS (Lou Gehrig's Disease)
• Treats hypertension
• Treats incontinence (yup)
• Treats osteoporosis
• Treats inflammation
• Treats sleep apnea
• Assists with anger management

Ummm...  But it has no medical application.  Care to venture a guess what it is?

Quote from: Amaterasu on July 04, 2012, 12:08:19 PM
There does seem to be one drug that IS good for You...  [impish grin]

It:

• Cures cancer
• Treats Alzheimer's
• Treats stress
• Treats glaucoma
• Treats anorexia
• Treats ADD & ADHD
• Treats multiple sclerosis
• Treats asthma
• Treats insomnia
• Treats depression
• Treats anxiety
• Treats pain
• Treats epilepsy
• Treats nausea
• Treats Parkinsons Disease
• Treats hangovers
• Treats schizophrenia
• Treats migraines
• Treats diabetes
• Treats muscle spasms
• Treats obsessive/compulsive disorder
• Treats herpes (topically)
• Treats emphysema
• Treats autism
• Treats digestive disorders
• Treats PTSD
• Treats bipolar disorder
• Treats pregnancy discomforts
• Treats palmar hyperhidrosis
• Treats Crohn's Disease
• Treats Tourette's Syndrome
• Treats itching (pruritus)
• Treats ALS (Lou Gehrig's Disease)
• Treats hypertension
• Treats incontinence (yup)
• Treats osteoporosis
• Treats inflammation
• Treats sleep apnea
• Assists with anger management

Ummm...  But it has no medical application.  Care to venture a guess what it is?

Greetings Dear Amy...


(http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/w400/thorfourwinds/Early%20July%202012/th-2.jpg)


...and we could tell you a story about how a pipe dream...


... exhales a billowing cloud of pungent Panama Red in a perfectly-executed smoke ring, (cough, cough)

"...wouldn't it be neat to have a ticker like Dow Jones so peeps nationwide could see what the prices of alternative commodities were in New York, Los Angeles, Rio Linda..."

"... mayhaps not a ticker, per se, how about a magazine with pretty pictures to design quality editorial around - hell, Hef does it and gets away with slickly-packaged porn... we can hide the message in plain sight ... {Trans-High Market Quotations}"


(Interesting, this same magazine featured a cover-story with the Dalai Lama - whoda thunk?)


... turned into a magazine and a mini-publishing empire promoting the understanding of those benefits... (http://news.yahoo.com/cw-analytical-named-official-testing-laboratory-high-times-073001643.html)

For sure, there is a certain amount of self-serving FUN involved with such an enterprise...

Such as taking an unscheduled midnight swim with our (very) old buddy Chic Eder when el troopos AFI (Los Federales) decided to pay an unscheduled visit (obviously not 'our' guys) in a 'Southern country' bay coincidently next to a boatload of Columbian Gold...

If only we could write that book now... but in those days, we had our own albatross (you'll love this, Linda, another Swan), and (OMG, another 'Z'), and Zach was too much of a hot potato with grandiose visions and no basic survival skills in the jungle in which he found himself immersed and drew heat on all... but we digress.


Just reformatted and dropped "I Have Become Death, the Destroyer of Worlds" (http://www.thelivingmoon.com/forum/index.php?topic=1574.0) into the Spookz Japan/Fukushima mega-thread on Page 1299... breadcrumbs...

And here is the new "work-around" after being "banned" access to our thorfourwinds TWIT account and followers:


(http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/w400/thorfourwinds/NoResultsTWITtfw.png)

(http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/w400/thorfourwinds/EarthAidConcertTWIThome.png)

https://twitter.com/

Peace Love Light
tfw


(http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/w400/thorfourwinds/Ourlivesbegin.png)

LOVE that last graphic, Thor!

Quote from: Amaterasu on July 04, 2012, 03:35:31 PM
LOVE that last graphic, Thor!

Posting the following would have at least result in a 404'd thread.

Quote
Marijuana Cuts Lung Cancer Tumor Growth In Half, Study Shows
ScienceDaily (Apr. 17, 2007) — The active ingredient in marijuana cuts tumor growth in common lung cancer in half and significantly reduces the ability of the cancer to spread, say researchers at Harvard University who tested the chemical in both lab and mouse studies. SOURCE: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070417193338.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070417193338.htm) 

QuoteMarijuana Chemical May Fight Brain Cancer
Active Component In Marijuana Targets Aggressive Brain Cancer Cells, Study Says


April 1, 2009 -- The active chemical in marijuana promotes the death of brain cancer cells by essentially helping them feed upon themselves, researchers in Spain report.

Guillermo Velasco and colleagues at Complutense University in Spain have found that the active ingredient in marijuana, THC, causes brain cancer cells to undergo a process called autophagy. Autophagy is the breakdown of a cell that occurs when the cell essentially self-digests.

The team discovered that cannabinoids such as THC had anticancer effects in mice with human brain cancer cells and people with brain tumors. When mice with the human brain cancer cells received the THC, the tumor growth shrank. SOURCE: http://www.webmd.com/cancer/brain-cancer/news/20090401/marijuana-chemical-may-fight-brain-cancer

This is the way I look at it. If marijuana relieves pain or even more significantly, CURES CANCER!, then what's the F'n problem? Not ONE person has ever died from using marijuana - EVER - but tens of thousands die every year from opiates, and even more from drunk driving.

Priorities people, priorities.

Quote from: kdog on July 04, 2012, 10:32:29 PM
Silly question as to why ATSame won't allow ANY drug talk.
It would look bad for those COINTELPRO agents when presenting evidence.
But hookers are ok. :D

They dont want their personal stash of THC laced hemorrhoid cream to get confiscated!
LOL!
Le

Quote from: Littleenki on July 04, 2012, 10:35:29 PM
They dont want their personal stash of THC laced hemorrhoid cream to get confiscated!
LOL!
Le

How can we get some of that?    :o

tfw

If marijuana is decriminalized or (gasp) legalized, it will cut in to pharmaceutical profits.  OH HORRORS!  Of course I have it from patients, that synthetic THC is not as effective as the genuine article.  Judging by the difference in visible effectiveness between the two, I think the patients are right.

Shasta

Money Spent on the War On Drugs this Year (in real time): http://www.drugsense.org/wodclock.js (http://www.drugsense.org/wodclock.js)

In my own opinion, legalisation and regulation of the marijuana industry would generate unheard of revenue.  The gang element would be eliminated and violence would markedly decrease.  A new industry would grow and unemployment would decrease. The prison population would drastically decrease.

Years ago, when drug testing (marijuana) was implemented as a pre-employment requirement, the use of Cocaine skyrocketed.  The reasoning being that Coke cleared the system faster, and unless a hair test was done, it was virtually undetectable in one's system.

As Shasta mentioned, the pharmacological industry will staunchly defend against legalisation.  Look for new campaigns "proving" harm done to the body.

Law enforcement and alphabet agencies will do all in their power to block legalisation because it will hit them in their pockets!  No more War on Drugs program means less War on Drugs warriors. That equates to less than "glamorous" positions and less money...and a bottleneck in obtaining a free personal supply.

J

It has been stated that cannabis helps with lots of illnesses.

Could I offer a theory as to what causes many illnesses, and why said drug allieviates many?

IMHO, We exist within ,and with the enabling ability of this ,of a memory type bubble.
This bubble is in duality with a torus heart centred form.
That duality enables LIFE.
It enables life by providing the force and the memory contained within relative to the encoded lifeform it is enabling.

That torus field is fed by ever larger self similer memory of the dominant memory field that You are within, in our case that is earths.

That duality enables and sustains the matter within it, and enables so called movement, it provides the dual signal pathways that SWITCH and displace the atoms within the bubble.

If for whatever reason/s that dual field is disrupted , then basically multiple memory loss can occur in whatever region where the balance of duality is disrupted.

Such as cannabis is derived from a living entity, and it contains a high enabling substance that increases the memory dimensions and content of.
Thus it enables self repair to occur as it frees up the duality flows to better balance and volumes.
DMT does this to even greater effect, and there is possibly a global inhiboter been induced in humans to suppress DMT.
It DMT enable the memory field diameter to increase above certain geometric TRIPPING points that allow ourselves to converse with ourselves in a different dimension.

The most common inhibitor been flouride.

We are electrical beings experiencing a physical body....IN ENSLAVEMENT.
hobbit

Well said guys.  MY university had lots of cash to help fund my undergraduate studies from Big Pharm.  However, that does not make it OK.

Quote from: Bob Powell on July 04, 2012, 08:45:07 PM
This is the way I look at it. If marijuana relieves pain or even more significantly, CURES CANCER!, then what's the F'n problem?

But does it really cures anything?

The problem I have with most promoters of marijuana is that they act in the same way as big farma acts to promote their products: they present studies and promote unproven things to make their side look better.

For example, this is the end of the article from your first link:

QuotePreet says much work is needed to clarify the pathway by which THC functions, and cautions that some animal studies have shown that THC can stimulate some cancers. "THC offers some promise, but we have a long way to go before we know what its potential is," she said.

So, it may cure (or at least help cure) some types of cancer but it can also stimulate other types.

To me, there's too much hype surrounding this whole marijuana issue. If it was as good as they say, seeing that this is a plant that is known by humans for a long time, their medicinal use should have been known for centuries and it should have been in use in many countries as traditional medicine (we still have a lot of that here in Portugal, but no use of marijuana, as far as I know).

QuoteNot ONE person has ever died from using marijuana - EVER - but tens of thousands die every year from opiates, and even more from drunk driving.

That's one of those things I was referring to, some words that cannot be verified. How can you say that not ONE person has ever died from using marijuana? Do you know ALL people that ever used it?

QuotePriorities people, priorities.

That's the problem, we cannot know what are the priorities of the marijuana promoters, but most people accept them without any problems.

Another thing, what happened in Portugal was the decriminalisation of the use of all drugs, not just marijuana.

As most drug related crimes are connected with the harder drugs, the decriminalisation had little effect on marijuana users (they were already mostly ignored by the police), but there were big changes to the users of hard drugs.

On the street where I live we had a methadone centre, where the drug addicts came to get their treatment, and I saw several appearing with that famous drug-addict look and, some weeks later, they looked completely different. There was only one guy that kept on appearing for some years, as he kept on mixing alcoholic drink with the methadone, and it looks like that affects the treatment.

As a side effect of all those voluntary treatments (Portuguese law doesn't allow anyone to be hospitalised or treated against their will), I think that the methadone centre has closed, as they don't have enough "customers" to keep it open any more.

Obviously, we still have many drug addicts and we still have many AIDS resulting from drug use, but the situation is much better than it was in the 80s and 90s.

Oh don't get me started :P

http://www.jackherer.com/

Get the e- book for free off his site...

What I find very hard to believe is cannabis is illegal - yet bath zombie salts are A-O-K!?

I don't like alcohol either - and that kills many many people - cannabis has no recorded ODs or deaths in history to my knowledge.

We have receptors in our body hardwired into every single cell for cannabinoids ! THAT IS AMAZING!

Yes, ArMaP, it DOES cure cancer. 

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/run-from-the-cure/

Marijuana

(http://futurepocket.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/marijuana_1.jpg)
A Legal Marijuana Farm

{{okay Watchzeitgeist  stop drooling}}

Marijuana is a plant... it has certain chemicals in it that have certain known effects... and some unknown/untested/unproven effects

Opium Poppy is a plant It has hallucinogenic properties and is addictive as is well known and documented.. yet many of our modern medicines come from this plant

At the other extreme is the Willow Tree...  the bark of the Willow tree gave us aspirin

Before modern medicine came along, the knowledge of herbs and plants was the only medicine they had...

The destruction of the Rain Forest may destroy many plants who's value we have not yet discovered

But the issue is not about cures and medicine, Its about people escaping life to get high :P They use the medical aspect as a means to push their personal agenda so they can get their buzz.

THAT is why its so hard to win the battle

(http://futurepocket.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/marijuana_3.gif)

Now do these girls look like they need medical help?

(http://futurepocket.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/marijuana_2.jpeg)
Marijuana Supporters in Light of its Benefits

QuoteWhat makes marijuana so bad that it can't be legalized? It's definitely not the idea that marijuana is bad for your health because if it was bad for your health, it wouldn't be prescribed for medical purposes. In fact, medical research has proven several benefits of marijuana use including treatment for glaucoma, multiple sclerosis, and the obvious fact that it is both anti-emetic (prevents nausea) and used for pain relief. For those concerned about the health effects due to smoking marijuana, remember, smoking is not the only way to enjoy marijuana benefits, you can also eat it or even vaporize it.

In fact, many economists are trying to push the legalization of marijuana because they believe it will help bring up the drowning economy of the United States.

Why the Government Won't Legalize Marijuana

QuoteUltimately, the reason the government does not want to legalize marijuana is because it would be impossible to prevent illegal sales even if it was legalized. I doubt they're worried about the health concerns (minimal) that follow with the usage of marijuana – so most of their concern lies with how to have high prices whilst taxing it and prevent illegal sales. Medical marijuana currently sells for equal to or more than street prices, and if it were legalized, why would people purchase it for the same as street price and pay tax on it rather than purchase it illegally tax free.

Why the Government Won't Legalize Marijuana (http://futurepocket.com/why-the-government-wont-legalize-marijuana/)

And don't forget the illegal trade helps fund certain Spook agencies :P

But hey drive up to Ontario Canada and light up to your heart content :D

OH and Santa's Reindeer fly because they eat MAGIC SCHROOMS

Magic mushrooms & Reindeer - Weird Nature - BBC animals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkCS9ePWuLU

 ;)
Love Strain Hunters - awesome especially Franco the Italian.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqFiucWKo-8

and  Jorge for president!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kz-xdJU1hw8

Many many docos on the tube such as The Union: Business of getting high
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jO_ncXj7RE
and Run from the cure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0psJhQHk_GI

It's history alone I find fascinating. The knowledge you can get from cannabis education alone is amazing;

Uses
Medical uses
Historic uses
Botany and agriculture
Science and Philosophical
Energy
Food
Clothing
Paper

If only they had this when I went to uni: http://www.oaksterdamuniversity.com/

Prenatal Marijuana Exposure and Neonatal Outcomes in Jamaica:
An Ethnographic Study

Melanie C. Dreher, PhD; Kevin Nugent, PhD; and Rebekah Hudgins, MA

http://druglibrary.org/schaffer/hemp/medical/can-babies.htm

QuoteDISCUSSION

Although no positive or negative neurobehavioral effects of prenatal exposure were found at 3 days of life using the Brazelton examination, there were significant differences between the exposed and nonexposed neonates at the end of the first month. Comparing the two groups, the neonates of mothers who used marijuana showed better physiological stability at 1 month and required less examiner facilitation to reach an organized state and become available for social stimulation. The results of the comparison of neonates of the heavy-marijuana-using mothers and those of the nonusing mothers were even more striking. The heavily exposed neonates were more socially responsive and were more autonomically stable at 30 days than their matched counterparts. The quality of their alertness was higher; their motor and autonomic systems were more robust; they were less irritable; they were less likely to demonstrate any imbalance of tone; they needed less examiner facilitation to become organized; they had better self-regulation; and were judged to be more rewarding for caregivers than the neonates of nonusing mothers at 1 month of age.

More at link.

Though I will never admit to use, My daughter did benefit...

Quote from: ArMaP on July 05, 2012, 11:33:35 PM
The problem I have with most promoters of marijuana is that they act in the same way as big farma acts to promote their products: they present studies and promote unproven things to make their side look better.

It doesn't cure cancer. Its most useful as an adjunct to chemotherapyas it reduces the side effects.  It can also inhibit some types  of tumour growth.  It is likely that regression is due to the patients own immune system functioning better in the presence of Cannabis.

One Reason NOT to take Pot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrCqPaSm8TA

Quote from: zorgon on July 06, 2012, 10:40:36 AM
One Reason NOT to take Pot

Another good reason is that the people I know who smoke a lot of it never actually achieve anything.  They talk about it but rarely do it. ::)

Quote from: Pimander on July 06, 2012, 10:51:38 AM
Another good reason is that the people I know who smoke a lot of it never actually achieve anything.  They talk about it but rarely do it. ::)

That's prolly why the us gov/military black ops has been in the marijuana distribution business for so long

Another way to keep the populace in check

Wouldn't want an awake nation of achievers, now would we?

Might even bring to light 'free energy'

Might even figure out the 'control system' and do something about it

Might even freak out TPTB so much that they run for the DUMB warrens ahead of green light

450,000 rounds of hollow-point won't be nearly enough when the worm turns

I know citizens who know citizens who know citizens who know of patriot groups (that's 4 levels of plausible deniability) that accumulatively have that much squirelled away - just in case the prices go up at WalMart   :P


(http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/w400/thorfourwinds/th-2.jpg)


Come get some...

Quote from: Pimander on July 06, 2012, 08:40:26 AM
It doesn't cure cancer.

You just have to look further up the page to see that someone posted that "it DOES cure cancer".

Quote from: Pimander on July 06, 2012, 08:40:26 AM
It doesn't cure cancer. Its most useful as an adjunct to chemotherapyas it reduces the side effects.  It can also inhibit some types  of tumour growth.  It is likely that regression is due to the patients own immune system functioning better in the presence of Cannabis.

Respectfully yet wholeheartedly DISagree with you. What is your personal negative experience with it in your past that gives you this outlook if you may, thank you.

Quote from: Pimander on July 06, 2012, 10:51:38 AM
Another good reason is that the people I know who smoke a lot of it never actually achieve anything.  They talk about it but rarely do it. ::)

Quote from: ColoradoGold on July 06, 2012, 01:12:00 PM
That's prolly why the us gov/military black ops has been in the marijuana distribution business for so long

Another way to keep the populace in check

Wouldn't want an awake nation of achievers, now would we?

Might even bring to light 'free energy'

Might even figure out the 'control system' and do something about it

Might even freak out TPTB so much that they run for the DUMB warrens ahead of green light

450,000 rounds of hollow-point won't be nearly enough when the worm turns

I know citizens who know citizens who know citizens who know of patriot groups (that's 4 levels of plausible deniability) that accumulatively have that much squirelled away - just in case the prices go up at WalMart   :P


(http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/w400/thorfourwinds/th-2.jpg)


Come get some...

Cathy O'Brien in her book Trance describes how the CIA/NSA are against cannabis due to the fact MK people would lose focus on their mind being controlled... I always liked that... and they also promoted MKers to take heroin Ecstasy and Cocaine!

Zorgon you said

"In fact, many economists are trying to push the legalization of marijuana because they believe it will help bring up the drowning economy of the United StatesEspecially California. They need the money from the income legalization would bring. Its really as simple as all that.

  Linda

(http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/w400/thorfourwinds/Early%20July%202012/530159_3267940451195_1602448168_n.jpg)

Considering that Carl Sagan was a regular user...  I'm pretty sure We can add "astrophysicist" to the list...

And SWIM (someone who isn't Me) used it for insights into the Abundance Paradigm & wrote The End of Entropy, and was pushing this on the web while using.  Look at the many people You know and ask Yourself...  How many People IN GENERAL ever get somewhere.  "Do something..."

The fact that You can find People who use it who are not successful does not follow that it is the use that creates the results.

Quote from: Amaterasu on July 08, 2012, 06:22:30 AM
Considering that Carl Sagan was a regular user...  I'm pretty sure We can add "astrophysicist" to the list...

And SWIM (someone who isn't Me) used it for insights into the Abundance Paradigm & wrote The End of Entropy, and was pushing this on the web while using.  Look at the many people You know and ask Yourself...  How many People IN GENERAL ever get somewhere.  "Do something..."

The fact that You can find People who use it who are not successful does not follow that it is the use that creates the results.

Greetings Dear Amy:

Quote...it is the use that creates the results...

And so many, many millions of people - otherwise law-abiding Planetary Citizens - who agree with you are prime examples.




That's why so many SWIMS are outside of the puny attempts by TPTB at 'mind control.' (Ask the CIA.)  :P

Give us a break. 8)

Peace Love Light
tfw


(http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/w400/thorfourwinds/2nd%20album%20July%202012/23207990743-01.jpg)

Cool Patche.

The thing that makes me crazier than normal is all of those years being told that we were mounting this big war on drugs...... and now that the State of California is broke and floundering it is suddenly alright to grow the stuff and sell it legally, as long as tax is paid on it.

Why didn't they do that forty years ago? 

Linda

Thor,


My understanding is that cannabis is highly disruptive to mind control efforts.  It pulls One out of the "vibrations..."  Just another in the long list of reasons They have to demonize it..

Quote from: Linda Brown on July 09, 2012, 12:16:08 AM
Cool Patche.

The thing that makes me crazier than normal is all of those years being told that we were mounting this big war on drugs...... and now that the State of California is broke and floundering it is suddenly alright to grow the stuff and sell it legally, as long as tax is paid on it.

Why didn't they do that forty years ago? 

Linda

Because only now are They desperately casting about to suck funds from ANYWHERE.  Forty years ago, They had not set the spending levels too high for the income.  And because cannabis was such a threat to so many industries (who were paying taxes), They jumped on the bandwagon.

Today, They are spending Themselves into the ground and even THIS looks good.  (Well, to Those of Us who have a clue, it has looked good all along, but to most, They either were buying or creating the propaganda.)

During my high school years I had many friends on pot..

They giggled at everything, cared about nothing and seemed to be constantly in a slow motion haze

In fact that behavior was so apparent that it made me NOT go anywhere near it

At work in the convention business many teamsters are using it... and they stop paying attention and reaction time is slow... which is dangerous in that line of work at the speed we work at.

So I am not a big fan of the whole country lost in space in a smoky haze

Havin a toke at home is one thing

At school or at work its the same as someone being drunk

Quote from: Amaterasu on July 09, 2012, 05:58:01 AM
My understanding is that cannabis is highly disruptive to mind control efforts.

Sure because under drugs the mind is not at home :P Can't control what you can't find :D

Quote from: zorgon on July 09, 2012, 06:06:31 AM
During my high school years I had many friends on pot..

They giggled at everything, cared about nothing and seemed to be constantly in a slow motion haze

Yes...I saw that same thing. Air heads on cannabis!

Thats a great thing if your running a corrupt central (Fed) government
and need a bunch of brain dead slaves working to get by.

Of course...no one in the central gubbment would be involved in
any drug trafficking for said reasons.  ::)

Quote from: zorgon on July 09, 2012, 06:12:08 AM
Sure because under drugs the mind is not at home :P Can't control what you can't find :D

As SWIM discovered, this is simply not so.  [smile]

I dont think all drugs should be Decriminalised. Mainley because the big ones, Heroine, Crack/cocaine, ecstacy can be realy dangerous. When people mix it with random stuff to make more money. Or create new types of weed like Skunk that has none of the anti-sycotics that normal weed does.

But i do believe weed should be.

Thing is weed is nothing like those other drugs.

I can think of worse... Alcohol? :P

Now theres a really dangerous Drug.  Its ok if you have one or two now and agian. But It still causes more deaths than any other.

I cant just blame the drugs though. There not the main problem. People are.

Most poeple might just have a little amount every so often.  Could live wonderfull full lives. While other will binge on it till they die. What gets more news? What gets a bigger reaction?

Whats worse? the drug or the person who uses it to the extreem?

Why does this happen? Why do some people feel that they have to go to the extreem? while others can just relax have one joint and never have any problems?

I now how this feels. Its called "Addictive tendencies"

For instance. I got my self to the point where i was spending all my money on ecstacy. Only a few weeks after i had my first one. I did this because i liked how it felt and how i acted while taking them. Im normaly very quite and shy. I eventually gave it all up because of the after effects. And im glad i did. But i still got that feeling every so often. I used to phone everyone in a mad dash cos i felt like having one. and would get in a mood if i coulnt get any. Dont wont to be like that agian. hah


Anyway.. We know why weed/ industrial Hemp was banned. Cos some bigshot, owend by the big tree/oil/whoever else stood up in court saying weed made white women sleep with black men etc, etc.
So that it wouldnt compete with the big industry like Oil and Trees.

But thats the thing thats dodgy. Hemp is an awsome thing. It used to be used for lots of things and grown all over america. And you cant smoke it. ( You can try. lol But wont get far. :P )

Yet hemp is also banned? Thats the one thing that could save the american ecomomy. But because its can be used for oil/paper/1000 other things. They wont.


We also know weed can help with pain/health also. (alot like Irn Bru :P)

Some people argue that if u legsalise it. More people will use it. But thats nonsence. lol

The crime cuased by these drugs would drop dramaticly of it was dercriminised.


Theres also the added benfit of opening our mind. Its the easy and faster way to do it. But i would rather do it without them and get better results.


So there is lots of reasons to do so. But i cant see it happening anytime soon.


(Just a note. I have had a few drinks so im chatty like mad right now. I think i made my post a bit longer than i intended. :P)

Peace n love

Vandlais

Quote from: Vandalis on July 11, 2012, 01:40:00 AM
I dont think all drugs should be Decriminalised. Mainley because the big ones, Heroine, Crack/cocaine, ecstacy can be realy dangerous.

In Portugal, what was decriminalised was the use of drugs, selling drugs is still a crime, buying them for personal use is not.

So we still get from time to time news of some big drug apprehension (we have many, being one of the points of entry in Europe, mostly from Africa, I think) or someone that was found with some "unusual" plantation on their back yard.

But when someone is caught under the influence of some drug, they are sent to a support committee to try to help that person to kick the addiction.

Quote from: zorgon on July 09, 2012, 06:06:31 AM
During my high school years I had many friends on pot..

They giggled at everything, cared about nothing and seemed to be constantly in a slow motion haze

In fact that behavior was so apparent that it made me NOT go anywhere near it

At work in the convention business many teamsters are using it... and they stop paying attention and reaction time is slow... which is dangerous in that line of work at the speed we work at.

So I am not a big fan of the whole country lost in space in a smoky haze

Havin a toke at home is one thing

At school or at work its the same as someone being drunk

Until a tolerance is built up it hits hard as any other drug does...remember your first time getting drunk? Does it still take the same amount to achieve the same state? I know people that use daily and are some of the hardest working people I have ever met. I have directly seen an improvement in lung function in a relative of mine that had lung cancer and was a heavy cigarette smoker. It only took a couple of puffs and she went from hacking in tears and wheezing to sitting up calm and breathing deeply. She claimed she was not able to breathe like that for months. She was not a user of pot at all and sadly died a month after I had seen her last, but I was very suprised at the immediate effect it had on her breathing. Of course some people need to stay as far away from this stuff as they can, just as some people should NEVER touch alcohol.  :)

Quote from: Ellirium113 on July 11, 2012, 02:05:12 AM
Until a tolerance is built up it hits hard as any other drug does...remember your first time getting drunk? Does it still take the same amount to achieve the same state? I know people that use daily and are some of the hardest working people I have ever met. I have directly seen an improvement in lung function in a relative of mine that had lung cancer and was a heavy cigarette smoker. It only took a couple of puffs and she went from hacking in tears and wheezing to sitting up calm and breathing deeply. She claimed she was not able to breathe like that for months. She was not a user of pot at all and sadly died a month after I had seen her last, but I was very suprised at the immediate effect it had on her breathing. Of course some people need to stay as far away from this stuff as they can, just as some people should NEVER touch alcohol.  :)

Exactly. Some poeple can go phycotic from smoking it. Yet others can do it 24/7 and still be normal enough to work/drive etc.

And still its the drugs fualt when somone goes crazy with it.  When a nice normal guy takes drugs u got a nice guy on drugs. When a bad agressive guy takes drugs u get a a bad agressive guy on drugs. Its not the drugs that do it. (most  of the time)

Same with alcohol. When a guy who likes fighting or can be agressisive gets drunk he will most likley want to fight somone. You will have an agressive guy on drink.  The drink doesnt make them like that. There already like that. But once the drugs hit. It brings out whats inside.

I am going to say that as far as I know...no One has gone "phycotic" on marijuana.  The very small percentage, that has any severe reaction at all, usually wind up feeling ill.  Or "paranoid" - but then, how much of that is from its illegal status?

Dont' worry, Zorgon. It's only a matter of time, before no one will dare to be using without a license:

Quote
Hidden Government Scanners Will Instantly Know Everything About You From 164 Feet Away
http://gizmodo.com/5923980/the-secret-government-laser-that-instantly-knows-everything-about-you

Elirium,

There are numerous studies showing the medical benefits of MJ for asthma and lung problems. I think that, in part, is why  Big Pharma is working so hard to create and patent THC drugs without the high.

And, also, just within the past year, I have been seeing very reports from the shrink side, about the permanent and positive personality change that has been observed in those who have used psylocibin mushrooms.

I'm even starting to see a movement to reinstitute the legal use of LSD under clincally controlled circumstances. Enlightenment comes slowly, but it does come. Guaranteed, that.

I'm glad you kicked your habit, though. It's hard to let go of what seems to be such a good thing, but the jury is still out on the long term effects.

rose

Quote from: Amaterasu on July 08, 2012, 06:22:30 AM
Considering that Carl Sagan was a regular user...  I'm pretty sure We can add "astrophysicist" to the list...

That explains much  :o

Carl Sagan wanted to Nuke the Moon to see if there was anything organic up there  :o

"Hey look Carl... there was life....   errrr.... oops!"

My bad... just had to :D

Quote from: zorgon on July 11, 2012, 08:20:07 AM
That explains much  :o

Carl Sagan wanted to Nuke the Moon to see if there was anything organic up there  :o

"Hey look Carl... there was life....   errrr.... oops!"

My bad... just had to :D

LOLOL!  Thanks for that!

Quote from: Amaterasu on July 11, 2012, 05:50:17 AM
I am going to say that as far as I know...no One has gone "phycotic" on marijuana.  The very small percentage, that has any severe reaction at all, usually wind up feeling ill.  Or "paranoid" - but then, how much of that is from its illegal status?

There was a tv documentery about it not long back her ein the uk. Following a few poeple that took it and if it should be legalised. One guy started goin crazy, hearing things etc. While these kids just went out to teh woods for a few and had fun. Showed how some have no problems with it. While others can get addicted or have mental problems. Those things arnt caused by the drug. They start with the person.   But as in all tv shows they never gave a clear answer one way or the other. But it did lean towards the "keep it banned" side.

Ill see if i can find it somewhere.

Uses of high quantities of Cannabis for a prolonged period DO CAUSE A FORM OF PSYCHOSIS.

Lower doses taken occasionally, like most drugs, are relatively harmless.  The same can be said for the odd glass of Scotch for instance. :)

Quote from: Vandalis on July 11, 2012, 04:45:10 PM
There was a tv documentery about it not long back her ein the uk. Following a few poeple that took it and if it should be legalised. One guy started goin crazy, hearing things etc. While these kids just went out to teh woods for a few and had fun. Showed how some have no problems with it. While others can get addicted or have mental problems. Those things arnt caused by the drug. They start with the person.   But as in all tv shows they never gave a clear answer one way or the other. But it did lean towards the "keep it banned" side.

Ill see if i can find it somewhere.

There is no such thing as "addicted..."  Many People come to rely on it for treatment of stress.  TPTB like to CALL that "addiction" but that is BS.  And perhaps .1% of People have any serious issues.  Maybe the whole thing was staged.  That could be a possibility...

Quote from: Pimander on July 11, 2012, 05:04:00 PM
Uses of high quantities of Cannabis for a prolonged period DO CAUSE A FORM OF PSYCHOSIS.

Lower doses taken occasionally, like most drugs, are relatively harmless.  The same can be said for the odd glass of Scotch for instance. :)

Where do You get these data from...?

Quote from: Amaterasu on July 11, 2012, 05:43:45 PM
There is no such thing as "addicted..."  Many People come to rely on it for treatment of stress.  TPTB like to CALL that "addiction" but that is BS.  And perhaps .1% of People have any serious issues.  Maybe the whole thing was staged.  That could be a possibility...


Where do You get these data from...?

From the scientific literature.  I am a pharmacology graduate.  where do you get yours. ::)

"There is no such thing as "addicted..."

Surely you jest.

Linda

Quote from: Linda Brown on July 11, 2012, 06:58:44 PM
"There is no such thing as "addicted..."

Surely you jest.

Linda

Becoming an addict can be an overnight process for some, and others it takes a while longer. It depends on the amount of drug ingested on a regular basis, more and youre hooked quicker, and infrequent, and all it takes is a binge or consecutive days intoxicated, but when dealing with any drug or alchohol abuse, there is a definite reality to addiction, and a timeline to become addicted.

A fine line it is, and some can abuse drugs with abandon one day and have no craving the next.

Its really as Amy says a control thing though, as the govt likes to keep its sheeple well in control, and drugs are a perfect medium for such activity.

Especially legal ones like the big pharma crap!

Just ask the CIA, who deals the most drugs anywhere....

Yep!

Le

Quote from: Amaterasu on July 11, 2012, 05:43:45 PM
There is no such thing as "addicted..."  Many People come to rely on it for treatment of stress.  TPTB like to CALL that "addiction" but that is BS.  And perhaps .1% of People have any serious issues.  Maybe the whole thing was staged.  That could be a possibility...


Where do You get these data from...?

Ever see a chronic pot smoker go without for a few days? You would know the addiction is real or there would be no withdrawl symptoms. The same can be said for a lot of things...even coffee drinkers, whether you think it is all in your head or not so long as it is craved and you suffer some form of anxiety without it, your addicted.

QuoteI'm glad you kicked your habit, though. It's hard to let go of what seems to be such a good thing, but the jury is still out on the long term effects.

rose

??? Where did I say I had a habit?  :P

Speaking of how the CIA funds some of its black projects.... Linda

Quote from: Ellirium113 on July 11, 2012, 10:11:53 PM
Ever see a chronic pot smoker go without for a few days? You would know the addiction is real or there would be no withdrawl symptoms. The same can be said for a lot of things...even coffee drinkers, whether you think it is all in your head or not so long as it is craved and you suffer some form of anxiety without it, your addicted.

??? Where did I say I had a habit?  :P

As an employer, I always knew when my employees were out of pot!LOL! Lots of cellphone activity, and zero attention span..obvious!

As a pot smoker for years myself, I can attest it is true.

Coffee, the new crack!..or the old crack, its been around a lot longer.

And a friend who went to South America got hooked on chewing coca leaves, BAD!

All in the genetics and the surroundings, as a rich person who has the money doesnt exhibit the withdrawal symptoms like someone who runs out every day and craves.

All in the environment at the start, and then its downhill from there. Noone ever improves from drug and alchohol abuse, and trust me I didnt.

All better now though, and wow, what a feeling!

And that K-2 spice? Its not anywhere near being a replacement, the kids who do it here, act as if they had a peyote sandwich!Good grief!

Le

Quote from: zorgon on July 06, 2012, 10:40:36 AM
One Reason NOT to take Pot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrCqPaSm8TA

Thank you Zorgon, that is one of the funniest things I have heard this year...

Quote from: Littleenki on July 11, 2012, 10:21:48 PM
As an employer, I always knew when my employees were out of pot!LOL! Lots of cellphone activity, and zero attention span..obvious!

As a pot smoker for years myself, I can attest it is true.

Coffee, the new crack!..or the old crack, its been around a lot longer.

And a friend who went to South America got hooked on chewing coca leaves, BAD!

:) I would rather deal with a person withdrawing from pot than cigarettes...man some people get right nasty.

Quote
All in the genetics and the surroundings, as a rich person who has the money doesnt exhibit the withdrawal symptoms like someone who runs out every day and craves.

The severity of the withdrawl is proportional to the availibility of funds & product (as well as a emotional distress level of the individual).  :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVZs2HHgfZk

Quote from: Ellirium113 on July 11, 2012, 10:11:53 PM

??? Where did I say I had a habit?  :P

Sorry,  E.  Sometimes I post faster than my brain works. I went back to look at your story and grabbed Val's tale of his love of ecstasy instead.

rose

Quote
  I would rather deal with a person withdrawing from pot than cigarettes...man some people get right nasty.

Indeed, Ellirium, for sure!

Le

One does have to wonder how many of those "psychoses" would have been caused by the combination of cannabis and alcohol, which even back in 1981 was known to cause schizophrenia to be manifested in some people when the two drugs are taken in combination? (Data appeared in  the Lancet back in mid to late 1981).
Fruitbat!

(graduate of the school of life, half century of classes taken and passed, still doesn't mean I know enough to be condescending to the next man or woman I speak to..)

Quote from: Pimander on July 11, 2012, 06:29:04 PM
From the scientific literature.  I am a pharmacology graduate.  where do you get yours. ::)

And for the record it IS possible to overdose on cannabis!

SWIM managed to make himself throw up the other day for the first time ever (after 34 years of regular use, it came as quite the surprise I can tell you!) due to excessive consumption of the drug.

I wish they would legalise it, under the present paradigm the strength of the product is just ever increasing to the point whereby the time you can taste the damn stuff you get too ripped to function properly!

It's getting really annoying. And yes, it does help certain people with anger management issues. It's use  does tend to make people more considerate and aware of the bigger picture, both of which are good things. It also seems to help with the impulse control problem that people who have AD can have issues with. I have never seen a room full of pot smokers erupt into violence either, or come to think of it any other form of strenuous activity.

It doesn't help in the workplace though, so you do have to give that first spliff in the morning a miss if you are working, and I'd always recommend that people allow themselves a bit of time off it occasionally, just to remember what life is like for the poor people who don't get to share in it's benefits.. :c)

Is it good, is it bad? I'd say it's just different, and when considered impassionately, maybe best avoided if you don't feel the need, but given a choice between drinking alcohol or smoking pot for SWIM, simply on grounds of "personal safety", it's a no-brainer...

pharmacology:If substances have medicinal properties, they are considered pharmaceuticals.

Interesting that cannabis is considered medicine. Alcohol is not (disinfectant maybe). I find people that have such a strong opposition to cannabis - are quite happy consuming and promoting a depressant: alcohol.

Also must be towing the party line in views on anything the FDA says eh? I guess you support vaccinations too right? Because that's what 'they' say is good for you. You have no choice but to comply or you don't get a pretty certificate, that then lets you sell a lot of addictive drugs - big pharma - so people can happily be addicted and in need of them for the rest of their lives.

Cannabis is NOT the problem. Narrow minded, speculative old views are.

People should be allowed to do whatever they choose, and if they want to get high, so be it, just not on my payroll, or roads.
Any more than alchohol, which in my opinion is far more destructive than pot.

I never saw an angry pothead, except when they didnt have any more, and everyone I have seen drinking excessively, has irritated me to no end, so six in one, half a dozen in the other to me, just be careful with power tools!;)

Now if you want to see something scary, read this about the spice ...JWH to be exact..a powerful cannabinoid agonist which supposedly mimics pot, but is more like lsd or ecstasy.

And very addictive as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JWH-018

QuoteJWH-018 is a full agonist of both the CB1 and CB2 cannabinoid receptors, with a reported binding affinity of 9.00±5.00 nM at CB1 and 2.94±2.65 nM at CB2.[13]

JWH-018 administered to rats resulted in the excretion of an indole-N-desalkyl metabolite as well as several hydroxylated metabolites in urine. The highest signals were observed for the hydroxylated N-desalkyl metabolites. Hydroxylation took place on the side chain and in both aromatic systems, the naphthalene and the indole rings, as could be shown by mass shift of the corresponding fragments and by MS3 experiments.[14] Human metabolites were similar although most metabolism took place on the indole ring and pentyl side chain, and the hydroxylated metabolites were extensively conjugated with glucuronide.[15]

Legal high, research chemical? BullSh!t!

When kids are doing this stuff to avoid prosecution, whats the deal with our lawmakers?

Le

Quote from: Pimander on July 11, 2012, 06:29:04 PM
From the scientific literature.  I am a pharmacology graduate.  where do you get yours. ::)

And who writes this literature...?  Any with a vested interest in maintaining a demonified status of the herb...?  Surely, with all the evidence in other arenas of science of tainted information, We might want to examine pharmacoloy for any such taint as well.  [smile]

Quote from: Linda Brown on July 11, 2012, 06:58:44 PM
"There is no such thing as "addicted..."

Surely you jest.

Linda

When it comes to cannabis, no.  There isn't.  Even in the "scientific" literature, the claims are made of a "psychological" addiction.  But I contend it is merely the reliance on the stress relief that is being described.  Remove the pain meds from a sufferer of chronic pain, and the pain returns.  Same with those treating stress.  NOT an "addiction."  A reliance on relief.

Did You think I was speaking generally?  Sorry if I failed to clarify.  As One ADDICTED to nicotine and caffiene, I assure You, I KNOW there are addictive substances.  Just that pot is NOT one of them.

Quote from: Littleenki on July 11, 2012, 09:56:58 PM
Becoming an addict can be an overnight process for some, and others it takes a while longer. It depends on the amount of drug ingested on a regular basis, more and youre hooked quicker, and infrequent, and all it takes is a binge or consecutive days intoxicated, but when dealing with any drug or alchohol abuse, there is a definite reality to addiction, and a timeline to become addicted.

A fine line it is, and some can abuse drugs with abandon one day and have no craving the next.

Its really as Amy says a control thing though, as the govt likes to keep its sheeple well in control, and drugs are a perfect medium for such activity.

Especially legal ones like the big pharma crap!

Just ask the CIA, who deals the most drugs anywhere....

Yep!

Le

Well, as SWIM used to ingest VAST quantities, daily, for years, and hasn't had access for financial reasons lately, SWIM can attest to a mild sadness that the joint pains and stress are no longer relieved.  SWIM is looking forward to a time when SWIM can again use SWIM's medicine because living in pain is less than optimal, but SWIM will not use any other pain meds.  Despite abrupt removal from use, SWIM never experienced withdrawal, sweating and anguish, fixation on the idea of cannabis, desperation, panic, craving, nervousness, blinding headaches,  inability to focus on other thing, etc., such as SWIM experiences trying to quit nicotine and caffeine.

SWIM just thinks it's sad that such an effective pain reliever is unavailable to SWIM. 

No.  Cannabis is NOT addicting, but for those it helps with the many issues it helps with, taking it away leaves Them unrelieved.

Links for those who claim cannabis is an issue behind the wheel:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/4/prweb9375729.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/03/990325110700.htm
http://cannabisculture.com/articles/4131.html
http://norml.org/library/item/cannabis-and-driving-a-scientific-and-rational-review
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2011/12/02/driving-stoned-safer-than-driving-drunk/
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/06/study-marijuana-worsens-distracted-driving-and-thats-about-it/
http://news.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news-2/Marijuana-Not-A-Factor-In-Driving-Accidents-11081-1/
http://norml.org/library/item/marijuana-and-driving-a-review-of-the-scientific-evidence
http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2010/06/driving_while_stoned_pot.php
http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/2010/jun/04/marijuana_study_finds_minimal_ch

Interestingly...  The .gov sites and MSM sites are claiming it "doubles the risk of an accident!"  Hmmmm.

And here's a good page with LOTS of referenced facts:

http://drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/53

Quote from: Amaterasu on July 12, 2012, 07:01:27 AM
Links for those who claim cannabis is an issue behind the wheel

If it reduces the reaction time, then it's an issue.

I know a woman that was married with a guy (he already died) that was an alcoholic, and she was never afraid of having an accident when he was driving while drunk because he didn't change the way he acted, the only problem was the reduced reaction time that once (as far as I know) almost made him provoke an accident.

It turns out that hundreds of thousands of People drive using cannabis every day.  Many more than drive drunk.  Yet there are not the problems with pot as with alcohol.  If there were, We would see far more accidents than We do.

Many tests show no deterioration in skills.  The suspect studies - mostly those calling it "marihuana" (note the "h" in place of the "j") - the .gov, and media sites will tell You otherwise.  But then, We believe EVERYTHING They and Their corporate sponsors/masters tell Us, right?

A key factor to keep in mind is whether We are speaking of novice or experienced users.  There is a BIG difference.  It should come with a label that says, "Do not dive until You know how this herb will affect You."  Some of the government studies and other biased studies took People who were novice users - even those who had never used before - and ran the tests.  And then, yes.  There can be issues.

But amongst experienced users there is none.

Quote from: Amaterasu on July 12, 2012, 06:04:39 AM
And who writes this literature...?  Any with a vested interest in maintaining a demonified status of the herb...?  Surely, with all the evidence in other arenas of science of tainted information, We might want to examine pharmacoloy for any such taint as well.  [smile]

Yes, the pharmaceuticals industry has tainted a lot of research by its influence.  That's Capitalism for you!  However, if you read my considered and rational points....

1.  Smoked in reasonably low doses, Cannabis does not cause permanent neurological or psychological damage.

2.  Long term heavy Cannabis use has been shown to cause neurological and psychological problems. 

(http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/data/journals/psych/11863/m_yoa80004f1.png)

QuoteThese results provide new evidence of exposure-related structural abnormalities in the hippocampus and amygdala in long-term heavy cannabis users and corroborate similar findings in the animal literature. These findings indicate that heavy daily cannabis use across protracted periods exerts harmful effects on brain tissue and mental health.

SOURCE: http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=482744


For the record, I am pro decriminalisation of drugs.  However, any drug if overused is likely to cause unwanted side-effects.  There are very few psychoactive drugs that cause no unwanted side-effects.  You are aware of the number of people who have agoraphobia today due to smoking cannabis as an adolescent?

Sensible recreational Cannabis use is a matter of personal choice and, effects on the lungs aside, unlikely to cause you much harm.  But don't try to make it out to be some cure all or side effect free drug.  There is no such thing.

My next questions to You are:

Who did this study with the cute chart there?

What evidence is there that these "abnormalities" are an issue, in any real sense (presuming the study is trustworthy)?

Not starting an argument...  [smile]  Just don't trust the studies when SWIM has a lot of first hand experience that often goes against the claims made "studies."  At one time We were told there was evidence that it cause One to become a homicidal maniac, and in the congressional record of 1934 it was claimed to caused "brother to kill brother," and "negro men to rape white women..."

So You can see why I am dubious of studies.  Many lies have been fabricated.

Quote"Do not dive until You know how this herb will affect You."

Why on earth would anyone want to dive and smoke? You'd get your doobie all wet.

(Sorry, Amy. I just couldn't help myself.)
rose

Quote from: Amaterasu on July 12, 2012, 04:45:23 PM
What evidence is there that these "abnormalities" are an issue, in any real sense (presuming the study is trustworthy)?

You need to take a degree to understand all of the evidence.  That is why we have experts.  It baffles me how people want experts on a forum but when one comes along and gives you the straight up facts you won't listen.

Oh, and abnormalities in amygdala and hippocampal volumes are associated with psychosis and many psychological disorders.  I am not doing a course on psychopharmacology on this thread but if you wish to start a thread on neuro-imaging and psychological disorders I'll be happy to add my comments.

Quote from: The Executioner on July 12, 2012, 05:05:35 PM
You need to take a degree to understand all of the evidence.  That is why we have experts.  It baffles me how people want experts on a forum but when one comes along and gives you the straight up facts you won't listen.

Oh, and abnormalities in amygdala and hippocampal volumes are associated with psychosis and many psychological disorders.  I am not doing a course on psychopharmacology on this thread but if you wish to start a thread on neuro-imaging and psychological disorders I'll be happy to add my comments.

Indeed, Ex!
Balance in the brain is the simple way to put a complex issue!

I have been doing some research on JWH and it's effect on the two sides of the brain, and wonder if youve got any ideas or theories on the substance and its subsequent pharmacology as most things online pertain to people describing how "stoned" and "wasted" they get...not very empirical if ya know what I mean!LOL

Clemson has their stuff locked down, but maybe youve got a way to get in there(credentials?)
Cheers,
Le

Pimander, I scanned the referenced study. Thank you. I find research study construction very interesting as mental exercise.

I'm not posting to tear this one down, only to make the study group features known to the general thread readerhip who may not take time to look; and to share the questions that crossed my mind as I read it.  If I misquote or misremember something, please correct me:

The study group consisted of 15 males who had smoked 5 or more joints every day for ten (or more?) years with none having more than 24 alcholic drinks a week.  Averaged as a group, they were older than the control group by a few (3-4) years. The educational level of the study group was slightly in excess of 22 years.

My thoughts?

Quote5 or more joints everyday for at least ten (or more ?)years

.
This selection criteria seems to be wide open at the top end.  Given the age gap between the study and the control groups, I'd love to see the results for those only at the bottom end, both on joints per day, years, and alchohol consumption.

That level of drinking seems to  indicate borderline alcholism, or possibly a binge drinker. I probably would have thrown that person or persons out of my sample.

The educational level also indicates that this group does not represent the national norm.  Nor do their psychological scores (and of course, given the study findings, was to be expected) but while the study is narrowing in on the volumetric cause/efecct relationship, more work needs to be done. And will be done, no doubt. Kudos to the researchers for the methodological goundwork.

rose

Quote from: rose on July 12, 2012, 04:47:43 PM
Why on earth would anyone want to dive and smoke? You'd get your doobie all wet.

(Sorry, Amy. I just couldn't help myself.)
rose

Gotta love Ya, rose.  LOL!

Tired today, and (as if anyOne needs help) that should read "drive."


EDIT to add:  Excellent points on the study group, Rose.  24 drinks a week is three+ a day!  (Geez, I barely use that a year!  LOL!)

Quote from: The Executioner on July 12, 2012, 05:05:35 PM
You need to take a degree to understand all of the evidence.  That is why we have experts.  It baffles me how people want experts on a forum but when one comes along and gives you the straight up facts you won't listen.

Oh, and abnormalities in amygdala and hippocampal volumes are associated with psychosis and many psychological disorders.  I am not doing a course on psychopharmacology on this thread but if you wish to start a thread on neuro-imaging and psychological disorders I'll be happy to add my comments.

And I am baffled that asking questions is met with...suggestions of not listening...  To be sure, I am listening, but have some questions.

Next question:  what is the evidence that these particular readings with users of cannabis are linked to psychosis and many psychological disorders?  In other words - compared to non-users, are those users with these "abnormalities" showing a higher percentage of these psychoses and many psychological disorders?  Or do these disorders exist at the same percentage as non-users.

Just because these "abnormalities" are associated with these disorders does not follow that cannabis-induced results ARE creating these issues.  Willie Nelson doesn't seem to be going psychotic...  Just sayin'.

An interesting piece (http://www.euronews.com/2012/07/09/imitations-of-illicit-drugs) about "drug imitations".

With 46 new drugs "invented" last year, the demand for such legal drugs is turning into a new problem.

Just a little glimpse into the dark side of the government gone
wrong. Not to say that legalization will prevent this stupidness....
as it likely would not.

QuoteThe phone rang before sunrise. It woke Craig Patty, owner of a tiny North Texas trucking company, to vexing news about Truck 793 - a big red semi supposedly getting repairs in Houston.

"Your driver was shot in your truck," said the caller, a business colleague. "Your truck was loaded with marijuana. He was shot eight times while sitting in the cab. Do you know anything about your driver hauling marijuana?"

"What did you say?" Patty recalled asking. "Could you please repeat that?".....

Commandeered by one of his drivers, who was secretly working with federal agents, the truck had been hauling marijuana from the border as part of an undercover operation. And without Patty's knowledge, the Drug Enforcement Administration was paying his driver, Lawrence Chapa, to use the truck to bust traffickers.

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Truck-owner-wants-DEA-to-pay-up-after-botched-3743683.php

Well, just put yourself in the shoes on Patty, or Chapa's family.

:'(

Quote from: Amaterasu on July 12, 2012, 06:42:27 PM
Just because these "abnormalities" are associated with these disorders does not follow that cannabis-induced results ARE creating these issues.  Willie Nelson doesn't seem to be going psychotic...  Just sayin'.

Many people who smoke 20 cigarettes a day don't develop lung cancer but there is still a link.

The weight of the evidence is pretty heavy but there is no way I'm going to spend hours doing the leg work for you.  All I will say is that heavy Cannabis use has been strongly linked to a number of conditions or disorders.

I am OK with it if you think I am delusional or not expert enough to say so.  As far as this site goes, studying drugs for years in Academia is about as expert as you'll get. :)

Moderation is the key. Just remember you can OD on damn near anything. Water, Vitamin Pills, Salt. 5 or 6 joints a day I would consider excessive use and depending on the individual may be suffering from lack of oxygen to the brain as well as a myriad of other related problems.  ;)

You have to have tried something, to be able to say whether or not you like it.
-- Mark Brandon Read

I try to maintain a more objective stance towards marijuana, than what I see on either the for or against sides of the argument, truthfully.  As I mentioned on ATS several times, not long ago I spent probably six months in Nimbin, a town in Northern NSW which is considered the drug and "alternative," capital of Australia, more or less.

I went through a period of my first couple of weeks there, where I smoked as heavily as might be expected, for someone with a new toy; but after that, I settled down and my consumption actually became very limited.  To illustrate how limited, I can say that I was often able to make 5 mixed grams last more than three weeks.  I smoked a single pipe 2-3 times a week, on average.

I also tried two other substances; a particular kind of psylocibin mushrooms, and I was also able to consummate one of the greatest ambitions of my life so far, by experiencing lysergic acid diethylamide.

My opinion concerning marijuana, is that it absolutely should be legalised, but that like most kinds of freedom, it should rightfully also involve responsibility on the part of the consumer.  I was able to learn, while in Nimbin, of the numerous other beneficial and useful applications to which cannabis can be put; and on balance, realised that the plant absolutely needs to become unrestricted.

Regarding LSD, I still feel that decriminalisation is appropriate, but not that it be completely unrestricted.  An 18+ age restriction would, I feel, be appropriate, as well as possibly mandatory education prior to the consumption of the drug.  A person needs to have performed a certain amount of developmental work beforehand, in order to safely use LSD; and all false modesty aside, while I do not consider myself an initiate in formal terms, I will say that it was only the rudimentary degree of magickal background that I had established, that allowed me to preserve my sanity during one of the experiences.

Quote from: Pimander on August 13, 2012, 05:44:22 PM
The weight of the evidence is pretty heavy but there is no way I'm going to spend hours doing the leg work for you.  All I will say is that heavy Cannabis use has been strongly linked to a number of conditions or disorders.

I consider the beneficial or harmful aspects of marijuana to be extremely variable, Pimander, relative to the individual physiology and mental state of the user.  I will also say, that failure to acknowledge this reality, is one of the main sources of my frustration, with both advocates for and against the legalisation of marijuana.  Neither side possess objectivity, for the most part.

The advocates for legalisation and use, will hear no criticism, and nothing negative said about the plant at all.  As far as they are concerned, it is exclusively positive, and exclusively good, and if you disagree even in the slightest, then you are considered a member of the Enemy.  I have had marijuana advocates accuse me of never having smoked, because I dared to suggest that the drug might not be universally beneficial for everyone.

The advocates for continued criminalisation, are likewise single minded.  To them, marijuana is a solely noxious, evil, toxic substance, which is supposedly responsible for schizophrenia and a host of other ills.

From my own use, I can say that I neither believe that marijuana cures cancer, nor that it causes schizophrenia.  As at times an aspirant herbalist, marijuana is simply another element of the materia medica, as far as I'm concerned.  It has its' indications and contraindications, just like any other medicine out there.  It can be highly beneficial, in certain contexts, and for certain conditions, but it also can cause negative consequences if it is abused.

Quote from: petrus4 on August 14, 2012, 12:21:03 AM
You have to have tried something, to be able to say whether or not you like it.
-- Mark Brandon Read

That is Bull Crap :P

I don't need to try jumping in lava to see what that is like. I don't need to get drunk to see what it does to friends and I don't need to smoke it to see how people around me have turned into mindless zombies by using it regularly

In fact my son never tried alcohol because he saw what it did to someone he really looked up to as a brother...  Really nice guy  Irish... till he drank ;)

So no I don't need to try something to see if I like it :P

I had a fight with some Hippies back in the day... they kept promoting "Be free... do your own thing" crap but if my 'thing' was not 'their thing' I was a square or worse LOL

Quote from: petrus4 on August 14, 2012, 12:27:37 AM
From my own use, I can say that I neither believe that marijuana cures cancer, nor that it causes schizophrenia.  As at times an aspirant herbalist, marijuana is simply another element of the materia medica, as far as I'm concerned.  It has its' indications and contraindications, just like any other medicine out there.  It can be highly beneficial, in certain contexts, and for certain conditions, but it also can cause negative consequences if it is abused.

Penicillin was discovered in bread mold... became one of our best medicines... yet many people are deathly allergic to it

Quote from: zorgon on August 14, 2012, 12:58:02 AM
That is Bull Crap :P

I don't need to try jumping in lava to see what that is like. I don't need to get drunk to see what it does to friends and I don't need to smoke it to see how people around me have turned into mindless zombies by using it regularly

There are rules, and then there are exceptions.

Quote from: petrus4 on August 14, 2012, 12:21:03 AM
My opinion concerning marijuana, is that it absolutely should be legalised, but that like most kinds of freedom, it should rightfully also involve responsibility on the part of the consumer.

I agree with you completely.  I am pro decriminalisation of nearly all drugs.  Prohibition is good for the mafia and organised crime generally and is bad for society.

I was simply stating the facts.  Although, like most drugs moderate use causes little long term damage to health, prolonged heavy use is bad for you.

I have also been through the Cannabis "phase".  That makes no difference to the facts.  It is harmful, especially with long term heavy use.  Don't forget, I am a bona fide expert in this area.  I haven't smoked a few reefers and read some pop science and hippy sites.  I know a lot about neuropharmacology and pharmacology generally.

My stance on this subject is purely objective and pragmatic.

Legalize it all and Tax it.

The tax will cover all associated costs.

I would add that the only reason drugs are not legal now is because it benefits the financial system the way it is .... drug profits are over 1 Trillion a year and that money is not being stuffed under a mattress ... no, it is being laundered through the Banking system and is probably the only thing keeping it afloat.

On top of that we have the paper industry which has invested heavily in Trees ... obvious to us all that Hemp is better and far more sustainable, but they will not switch unless subsidized by government, you would've thought the Green movement would push the agenda but then they are not what they seem are they ... sock-puppet for raising taxes.

And finally the prison complex ... how are they going to make money with virtually empty prisons ?

Yeah what we have is vested interests blocking legalization for purely financial reasons ... the moral argument is completely baseless.

C..

Quote from: Pimander on August 13, 2012, 05:44:22 PM

The weight of the evidence is pretty heavy but there is no way I'm going to spend hours doing the leg work for you. 

All I will say is that heavy Cannabis use has been strongly linked to a number of conditions or disorders.

Interesting,
but not relevant
nor necessarily convincing
if left unsubstantiated,
even by one of such implied omnicience... ;)


Name the link(s)

Name the study(s)

Name the disorder (s)


Now, let's party!     8)

Quote from: Cosmic4life link=topic=1781.msg33046#msg33046
Yeah what we have is vested interests blocking legalization for purely financial reasons ... the moral argument is completely baseless.

The moral argument is the hollowest thing since Holl McHollow from Creepy Hollow left Hollow House and hit himself in his hollow head with a hollow stick.

How can we tax people for smoking Cigarettes but jail black men for life for getting caught smoking Cannabis three times.  Sick world!

Quote from: Eradicator on August 14, 2012, 12:52:36 PM
even by one of such implied omnicience... ;)

No implied omniscience.  I just suspect (am ALMOST CERTAIN) that I know more about it than you guys.

I also won't engage in a serious debate on it for more than one reason.

1.  I don't have the time.

2.  I can't give the people I am debating with the background to understand my points here.

3.  Cognitive dissonance is at work in the discussion.  Many heavy cannabis users will never accept it is harmful in spite of the evidence.

4.  The debate in the scientific community moved on a long time ago.  We KNOW that it is harmful.  We are studying the why and how at this stage.

I have already posted one study.

I do not normally post at all on my own topic because it is near to pointless for the most part.  I can post you a review or two if you like but I will not engage on the minutia of the research as it is too time consuming.

QuoteMost recent studies have examined working memory and verbal episodic memory and cumulatively, the evidence suggests impaired encoding, storage, manipulation and retrieval
mechanisms in long-term or heavy cannabis users. These impairments are not dissimilar to those associated with acute in-
toxication and have been related to the duration, frequency, dose and age of onset of cannabis use. We consider the impact
of not only specific parameters of cannabis use in the manifestation of memory dysfunction, but also such factors as age,
neurodevelopmental stage, IQ, gender, various vulnerabilities and other substance-use interactions, in the context of neu-
ral efficiency and compensatory mechanisms. The precise nature of memory deficits in cannabis users, their neural sub-
strates and manifestation requires much further exploration through a variety of behavioural, functional brain imaging,
prospective and genetic studies.

Nadia Solowij and Robert Battisti.  The Chronic Effects of Cannabis on Memory in Humans: A Review (http://www.benthamscience.com/cdar/samples/cdar%201-1/Solowij.pdf)

As I said, that it is harmful is not in doubt but further studies are neded to understand what is happening.

I would add that all things in excess are harmful .... all things in moderation have their benefits.

What is lacking in our society is Moderation.

We should legalize all intoxicating plants as they are natures gift ... as to man made derivatives and synthetics, there are no safe drugs, people should take note of the disclaimer in the packaging of prescribed drugs.

All substances should have a toxicity level clearly stated .... I would've thought that by now all substances have had an LD50 test so no bunnies need be harmed.

We need to act and treat others as adults capable of making their own life choices, but those choices should be informed choices based on the facts and not the ideology of the pure and preachy. ::)

People get high by Toking joints or Jumping out of perfectly serviceable aircraft  8) ... one of those can very definitely kill you, but in our myopic world somehow one is wrong while the other is Ok.

C..

scizophrinia?.
my wifes got it bad.
she smokes everyday.

neural damage?
im on here.
how did i ever find my way back on this site?

the damage comes from quitting.
high times is tied to the dea.
never trust ht.

never trust skunk magazine or cannabis culture.

i will say this for pine trees.
they dont deplete the ground of nitrogen as badly as pot.

the stuper comes from not being a regular smoker.

i build radio towers totally high.
drive all over the country in a f350, hauling a trailer with seven thousand lbs. and four people in the truck,
smoke rolling out the windows like cheech and chong.

its the best way to keep your wits when doing stressful work.
ive been smokin for twenty seven years.
five years fulltime.
happiest ive ever been.

grow my own now so i dont fuel the drug war.
and yes the cia was smuggling coke all over the country.
i was a witness to it.
they recruited bible thumpers and told them it was for the good of the country.

You guys are all a trip..pun intended:D

Pimander..right!
Cosmic...right!
Robomont...right!

I smoked it for thirty years, and stopped this year, when my mind just shifted into a "different mode" I guess you'd call it.

Zero withdrawals of any kind, just a steady increase in clear thought, and calm nature.

Now that Ive been off it for nearly a year, my mind is seeming to recover well, but when high I did things which seemed ok at the time, but werent.

I know folks who do it all day and function ok, but for me from experience, not doing it returns certain functions and feelings which I hadnt gotten to enjoy for so long.

It's nice knowing I dont have to worry about a weed being a part of my life anymore.

I think Cosmic said it best, MODERATION.

Besides, if you dont smoke for a while, one can really see a major euphoric effect from it...not just getting back to level mindedness like those who smoke multiple times daily.

As for pain relief, when I smoked, my joints and back would become stiff and uncomfortable.

Not those joints... My body's joints!;)

I think at this point. Id rather jump out of a perfetly good airplane instead of starting pot back up!

Got an extra chute, Cosmic?:)

Jes my 2 cents.

Best to all!
Le

yes ,i too am getting older and slowing down .especially in the morn,unless im working,then its full on .my problem is i want a breed that is stronger.i want to be so stoned im almost willing to call the police.ive fallen and i cant get up.ive never been so thirsty in all my life.
it still amazes me ,i can write on this board like this.thankyou zorgon,you are my hero !!
let wisdom and knowledge rule my friends.

Quote from: robomont on August 14, 2012, 04:09:32 PM
yes ,i too am getting older and slowing down .especially in the morn,unless im working,then its full on .my problem is i want a breed that is stronger.i want to be so stoned im almost willing to call the police.ive fallen and i cant get up.ive never been so thirsty in all my life.
it still amazes me ,i can write on this board like this.thankyou zorgon,you are my hero !!
let wisdom and knowledge rule my friends.

In that case, vaporize a bit of JWH-250..youll think youve died, and well...died!
LOL!
LE

im a little spooked by synthetics even tho it probly healthier.now if they grow a plant that produces it,its on.thats what they should do with pot.legalize and have packaging that shows each compound.that way a person could see the effects of each and customize to their preference. same with tobacco.

Well, I have decided to comment in this thread. Obviously my comments will reflect only my opinion. And I will not be giving any statistics, although there are plenty of them out there.

My opinion in a nutshell - - DECRIMINALIZE THE USE OF DRUGS. The "war on drugs", as it always been fought, is pretty much a complete waste of time. We fill our courts with drug related cases! We fill our jails and prisons with drug related convictions. And we have vast and endless programs designed to find and catch the drug dealers at every level of operation.

If we just knew the total cost to local, state and federal government agencies (our taxes) in the overall fight against drugs, we would probably be appalled! Even a company I worked for had contracts for aircraft involvement against the growing of drugs in Mexico

And, in every way you look at it, it is a "war" that cannot be won. It is all about the money, and what we, as a nation, have been doing for at least fifty years, has not made a scratch on stopping it.

Personally, I hate what illegal drugs do to people, mentally, physically, and financially, but, we must find a better way to deal with this problem, because we are failures with it, as it now stands.

I have never used an illegal drug of any type. I did smoke cigarettes for about 20 years, but wised up to that (but I did enjoy smoking!). And I just don't like the taste of alcoholic beverages!

But, I have had relatively close association with other workers who had family members that used drugs, and saw how it destroys families, and finances.

I once served on a county "Grand Jury" for six months, meeting one day once a month, to hear cases for decisions to indict, or no-bill. Not all, but most, were cases related to various aspects of the illegal drug scene - use, sale/delivery, and crimes against the public (us), associated with people trying to get money to buy drugs.

What we are doing doesn't work, and it won't work.

1. Let's decriminalize the use of any drugs.

2. Let's release from prison, every one jailed for the use of illegal drugs.

3. Take the steps necessary to have drugs available on the "cheap", for any that want them, which will automatically eliminate the drug "kingpin operations". No longer will there be a drug "seller's market.

4. Develop an aggressive plan for helping people who have problems with drugs - either individual states, or national.

5. Communicate and educate - communicate and educate - continual open and aggressive communication of the consequences of drug use, to encourage non-use.

6. If the formally illegal drugs are openly and cheaply available to those who want and need them, then that should pretty much do away with "illegal sales".  Some of the states, even now, control the sale of liquor through either state owned or state controlled/commissioned stores.  So, is there any reason drugs could not be handled similarly?

This subject is a huge huge problem, with many "tentacles", and there is no "real quick solution". But, if we can begin to initiate steps toward an entirely new "paradigm" relative to how we view mind altering drugs, how we deal with people who use them, making them available cheaply to those that do use them, and openly communicate to the public, then we can have a start toward --over the long term--- resolving most aspects of this problem. 

Yes, making something legal that is "mostly bad" for humans, to a lot of people seems "dumb squared". But what we have been doing, for a long long time, for sure doesn't work, and we have a lot of non-criminals in jail, when they just should not be there.

Let's try something that might work ------with a lot more work, in a lot of areas!!

you watch.obummer will dance around the issue and hint at decrim,after the paulies get disinfranchised at the national repub convention.he even said,maybe in my second term.but i would almost bet the farm ,no prez has the balls to do it.

Quote from: Pimander on August 13, 2012, 05:44:22 PM
Many people who smoke 20 cigarettes a day don't develop lung cancer but there is still a link.

I say there is not, and that the government used it as a scapegoat to hide the effects the Trinity device caused, spreading hot particles around the planet in 1945.  5-10 years later there was a rise in lung and skin cancers, and They asked what, other than air, do most People put in Their lungs...  Tobacco and sunlight because the explanation.

And there is yet to be, in honest tests with organic tobacco and rodents "smoking" 24/7 for over 50 years now, any link to cancer.  If there had been, that test would be all over the news.

They create carcinogens to "prove" it's tobacco:  soaking in nasty chemicals, radioactive "fertilizer," and fiberglass filters (did You know that in the vast majority of tumors removed from smokers' lungs, there is a seed of fiberglass...?).

And plenty of non-smokers getting lung cancer.  It's the hot particles, NOT the tobacco.

QuoteThe weight of the evidence is pretty heavy but there is no way I'm going to spend hours doing the leg work for you.  All I will say is that heavy Cannabis use has been strongly linked to a number of conditions or disorders.

Just name them, please.  I'll do the research.  Meanwhile I can (did! on p. 1, but I'll repeat) list things it is efficatious in treating.

It:

• Cures cancer
• Treats Alzheimer's
• Treats stress
• Treats glaucoma
• Treats anorexia
• Treats ADD & ADHD
• Treats multiple sclerosis
• Treats asthma
• Treats insomnia
• Treats depression
• Treats anxiety
• Treats pain
• Treats epilepsy
• Treats nausea
• Treats Parkinsons Disease
• Treats hangovers
• Treats schizophrenia
• Treats migraines
• Treats diabetes
• Treats muscle spasms
• Treats obsessive/compulsive disorder
• Treats herpes (topically)
• Treats emphysema
• Treats autism
• Treats digestive disorders
• Treats PTSD
• Treats bipolar disorder
• Treats pregnancy discomforts
• Treats palmar hyperhidrosis
• Treats Crohn's Disease
• Treats Tourette's Syndrome
• Treats itching (pruritus)
• Treats ALS (Lou Gehrig's Disease)
• Treats hypertension
• Treats incontinence (yup)
• Treats osteoporosis
• Treats inflammation
• Treats sleep apnea
• Assists with anger management

Ummm...  But it has no medical application.

QuoteI am OK with it if you think I am delusional or not expert enough to say so.  As far as this site goes, studying drugs for years in Academia is about as expert as you'll get. :)

And I have concentrated study specifically on cannabis for a good 30 years.  I have heard a small rumble here, and a mutter there of these "number of conditions or disorders" caused by cannabis, but on deeper investigation, the studies always have been flawed, and the mutterings cease.  If They really had good evidence, unassailable evidence, it would be all over the news.

you forgot a couple Amerasu,diesel exaust is highly carcinogenic and radon from coal ,oil,natural gas.think of all those natural gas heaters and stoves in homes and coal spewing radon powerplants.radon second leading cause per wiki.its so easy to explode on the straight guy above,but this thread has been very respectful and his knowledge seems to wide.but i do feel like amerusa.

Quote from: robomont on August 14, 2012, 10:21:15 PM
you forgot a couple Amerasu,diesel exaust is highly carcinogenic and radon from coal ,oil,natural gas.think of all those natural gas heaters and stoves in homes and coal spewing radon powerplants.radon second leading cause per wiki.its so easy to explode on the straight guy above,but this thread has been very respectful and his knowledge seems to wide.but i do feel like amerusa.

Not sure what I forgot, robo...  Yes, there are many carcinogens out there.  No doubt about it.  But tobacco and cannabis are not amongst them.  [smile]

Quote from: Amaterasu on October 01, 2012, 10:07:45 PM
But tobacco and cannabis are not amongst them.  [smile]

Are you suggesting that smoke is not carcinogenic?  I assure you it is.  Perhaps eaten the are not carcinogenic, but if you smoke them they are.


You don't happen to smoke do you?

Quote from: Pimander on October 01, 2012, 10:37:29 PM
Are you suggesting that smoke is not carcinogenic?  I assure you it is.  Perhaps eaten the are not carcinogenic, but if you smoke them they are.


You don't happen to smoke do you?

Pim, it has been shown that the carcinogens created in smoke are found only at high temps - i.e., immediately after combustion - and by the time the smoke reaches the lips, said carcinogens have broken down to non-carcinogenic states (speaking for tobacco and cannabis) as they cool.  This may not be the case for petrofuels...

We have a right to smoke and it should be legal.  However, you need to review more of the evidence.

How do you explain that smokers are far more likely to get lung cancer?

Quote from: Amaterasu on August 14, 2012, 08:09:32 PM
I say there is not, and that the government used it as a scapegoat to hide the effects the Trinity device caused, spreading hot particles around the planet in 1945.  5-10 years later there was a rise in lung and skin cancers, and They asked what, other than air, do most People put in Their lungs...  Tobacco and sunlight because the explanation.

And there is yet to be, in honest tests with organic tobacco and rodents "smoking" 24/7 for over 50 years now, any link to cancer.  If there had been, that test would be all over the news.

I consider tobacco a vile poison.  If we want to talk about a substance that I am single-mindedly negative towards, it is that one.  The greatest injustice where marijuana criminalisation is concerned in my mind, is not so much that weed is illegal; but that it is illegal while tobacco and alcohol are both legal.  Those two legal substances are among the most harmful in existence, in my observation.

I've read in passing about how the plant was supposedly revered by the Native Americans, but the one thing I've never been able to figure out, is why.  White anthropological accounts describe how sick it made them when they used it.  Supposedly, another use for it was as an offering to spirits; but if I was a God and someone offered me tobacco, they'd get slapped. ;)

Quote from: robomont on August 14, 2012, 10:21:15 PM
you forgot a couple Amerasu,diesel exaust is highly carcinogenic

Robomont, I would assume that you know diesel exhaust is not even close to being as bad as it once was. "Clean diesels" are now available. I bought one new in 2010, and I received a significant "tax rebate" that year as a result of the purchase, because it was IRS certified as a "clean diesel". (And driving 70mph, it will avg. about 40 mpg on the highway , and about 45 mpg @ 60 mph) - VW Jetta Sport Wagen TDI auto.

Here is a piece of a past article, that gives a little insight to this. It doesn't have a date, but it does have good info. I will provide a link to the full article.

http://www.greencar.com/articles/todays-improved-diesel-engine-technology.php

The Department of Energy estimates that a 30 percent market penetration of light-duty diesel vehicles by 2020 would reduce U.S. net crude oil imports by 350,000 barrels per day. In California alone, gradually increasing the use of currently-available clean diesel technology in cars, pickups, and SUVs to levels seen today in Europe could save the state 110 million gallons of gasoline per year by 2010, and up to 840 million gallons per year by 2030.

Diesel is on the rise in America: The forces holding it back – namely long-held stigmas and emissions concerns – are quickly being overcome by technology and now, of course, cleaner diesel fuel.

A new generation of clean diesel vehicles selling in large numbers opens the door for biodiesel to play a bigger role as well. This clean-burning fuel is derived from domestically produced agricultural products and runs in a diesel engine with little or no modifications, reducing both emissions and energy dependence.

Plus, diesels could factor favorably into the future of the popular hybrid as well. Just imagine the fuel economy that could be achieved by combining the fuel-saving benefits of hybrid-electric technology with an inherently efficient diesel engine. For example, DaimlerChrysler has developed a "mild hybrid" that combines the 3-liter BLUETEC V-6 diesel with a high-torque electric motor. With all this potential, we expect to be hearing a lot more about diesel in the years ahead.

From here (http://botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/t/tobacc21.html), concerning tobacco:-

---Medicinal Action and Uses---A local irritant; if used as snuff it causes violent sneezing, also a copious secretion of mucous; chewed, it increases the flow of saliva by irritating the mucous membrane of the mouth; injected into the rectum it acts as a cathartic. In large doses it produces nausea, vomiting, sweats and great muscular weakness.

The alkaloid nicotine is a virulent poison producing great disturbance in the digestive and circulatory organs. It innervates the heart, causing palpitation and cardiac irregularities and vascular contraction, and is considered one of the causes of arterial degeneration.

Nicotine is very like coniine and lobeline in its pharmacological action, and the pyridines in the smoke modify very slightly its action.

Tobacco was once used as a relaxant, but is no longer employed except occasionally in chronic asthma. Its active principle is readily absorbed by the skin, and serious, even fatal, poisoning, from a too free application of it to the surface of the skin has resulted.

The smoke acts on the brain, causing nausea, vomiting and drowsiness.

Medicinally it is used as a sedative, diuretic, expectorant, discutient, and sialagogue, and internally only as an emetic, when all other emetics fail. The smoke injected into the rectum or the leaf rolled into a suppository has been beneficial in strangulated hernia, also for obstinate constipation, due to spasm of the bowels, also for retention of urine, spasmodic urethral stricture, hysterical convulsions, worms, and in spasms caused by lead, for croup, and inflammation of the peritoneum, to produce evacuation of the bowels, moderating reaction and dispelling tympanitis, and also in tetanus. To inject the smoke it should be blown into milk and injected, for croup and spasms of the rima glottides it is made into a plaster with Scotch snuff and lard and applied to throat and breast, and has proved very effectual. A cataplasm of the leaves may be used as an ointment for cutaneous diseases. The leaves in combination with the leaves of belladonna or stramonium make an excellent application for obstinate ulcers, painful tremors and spasmodic affections. A wet Tobacco leaf applied to piles is a certain cure. The inspissated juice cures facial neuralgia if rubbed along the tracks of the affected nerve. The quantity of the injection must never exceed a scruple to begin with; half a drachm has been known to produce amaurosis and other eye affections, deafness, etc.

The Tobacco plant was introduced into England by Sir Walter Raleigh and his friends in 1586, and at first met with violent opposition.

Kings prohibited it, Popes pronounced against it in Bulls, and in the East Sultans condemned Tobacco smokers to cruel deaths. Three hundred years later, in 1885, the leaves were official in the British Pharmacopoeia.

Externally nicotine is an antiseptic. It is eliminated partly by the lungs, but chiefly in the urine, the secretion of which it increases. Formerly Tobacco in the form of an enema of the leaves was used to relax muscular spasms, to facilitate the reduction of dislocations.

A pipe smoked after breakfast assists the action of the bowels.

The pituri plant contains an alkaloid, Pitarine, similar to nicotine, and the leaves are used in Australia instead of Tobacco. An infusion of Tobacco is generally used in horticulture as an insecticide.

In cases of nicotine poisoning, the stomach should be quickly emptied, and repeated doses of tannic acid given, the person kept very warm in bed, and stimulants such as caffeine, strychnine, or atropine given, or if there are signs of respiratory failure, oxygen must be given at once.

Like I said, tobacco is a poison with virtually no positive or beneficial medical use.

Quote from: Pimander on October 01, 2012, 11:07:26 PM
We have a right to smoke and it should be legal.  However, you need to review more of the evidence.

How do you explain that smokers are far more likely to get lung cancer?

A very large portion of the tumors removed from smokers' lungs have a seed of fiberglass.  Those "good for You" filters are NOT good for You.  Also, many tobaccos are steeped in carcinogenic stuff and dried before being processed into cigs.

They WANT to perpetuate the myth for several reasons.

1.  They don't want to own the responsibility because of the Trinity (and other) nuclear tests
2.  Tobacco reverses the effects of sodium fluoride
3.  They don't want to admit the lie

Quote from: petrus4 on October 01, 2012, 11:25:24 PM
I've read in passing about how the plant was supposedly revered by the Native Americans, but the one thing I've never been able to figure out, is why.  White anthropological accounts describe how sick it made them when they used it.  Supposedly, another use for it was as an offering to spirits; but if I was a God and someone offered me tobacco, they'd get slapped. ;)

Why?  Because it is a stimulant, a cleanser (yes, pure tobacco is), an mosquito repellant, and other such beneficial things.  You, My friend, are a product of the propaganda.

Quote from: petrus4 on October 01, 2012, 11:33:51 PM
Medicinally it is used as a sedative, diuretic, expectorant, discutient, and sialagogue, and internally only as an emetic, when all other emetics fail. The smoke injected into the rectum or the leaf rolled into a suppository has been beneficial in strangulated hernia, also for obstinate constipation, due to spasm of the bowels, also for retention of urine, spasmodic urethral stricture, hysterical convulsions, worms, and in spasms caused by lead, for croup, and inflammation of the peritoneum, to produce evacuation of the bowels, moderating reaction and dispelling tympanitis, and also in tetanus. To inject the smoke it should be blown into milk and injected, for croup and spasms of the rima glottides it is made into a plaster with Scotch snuff and lard and applied to throat and breast, and has proved very effectual. A cataplasm of the leaves may be used as an ointment for cutaneous diseases. The leaves in combination with the leaves of belladonna or stramonium make an excellent application for obstinate ulcers, painful tremors and spasmodic affections. A wet Tobacco leaf applied to piles is a certain cure. The inspissated juice cures facial neuralgia if rubbed along the tracks of the affected nerve. The quantity of the injection must never exceed a scruple to begin with; half a drachm has been known to produce amaurosis and other eye affections, deafness, etc.

...

Externally nicotine is an antiseptic. It is eliminated partly by the lungs, but chiefly in the urine, the secretion of which it increases. Formerly Tobacco in the form of an enema of the leaves was used to relax muscular spasms, to facilitate the reduction of dislocations.

A pipe smoked after breakfast assists the action of the bowels.



Like I said, tobacco is a poison with virtually no positive or beneficial medical use.

Wow.  After that list?  You say it has no use?  Petrus, love....

Quote from: Amaterasu on October 02, 2012, 12:03:08 AM
Wow.  After that list?  You say it has no use?  Petrus, love....

I said virtually.  I'm not saying it doesn't have any use.  What I am saying, however, is that said uses actually are minimal, relatively speaking; and also that there are going to be herbs which will serve the same positive individual roles on the one hand, without having the problems that a toxic alkaloid (nicotine) will cause on the other.

If you were in a situation where you needed something that was going to act as an antibacterial, for instance, and you didn't have anything else, then yes, obviously you'd use tobacco.  The point is that I would consider it a last resort, because there are plenty of other antibacterials, which also are not going to have the same degree of negative side effects.

i grow both.
i grow rustican tobacco.the strongest you can smoke.even pickin it will give a buz.i worm my dog and cats with cigs.it works great for heart lung and intestinal worms.
me and my wife smoke seven cartons of cigs a month.
we also smoke two ounces of weed bud and leaf each week.i built the most reliable bong around.i also invented one of the most reliable pipe screens there is.
45 and still can climb towers and bang my wife.im the healthiest guy in my neighborhood ,most of the kids are lazy and fat.

Quote from: petrus4 on October 02, 2012, 12:08:15 AM
I said virtually.  I'm not saying it doesn't have any use.  What I am saying, however, is that said uses actually are minimal, relatively speaking; and also that there are going to be herbs which will serve the same positive individual roles on the one hand, without having the problems that a toxic alkaloid (nicotine) will cause on the other.

If you were in a situation where you needed something that was going to act as an antibacterial, for instance, and you didn't have anything else, then yes, obviously you'd use tobacco.  The point is that I would consider it a last resort, because there are plenty of other antibacterials, which also are not going to have the same degree of negative side effects.

In today's world, I suppose neosporin may be an option...but it's made of petroproducts and may be a worse choice...

In ancient times, such natural assistance was revered. 

And to be fair...  EVERYTHING is poison in large enough amounts.  There's plenty We use that too much will kill.  Aspirin comes to mind first.  Tea tree oil has a narrow margin between efficacious and deadly...

Really, just because something has a toxicity level is no reason to deem it useless, should be outlawed, etc...

Quote from: robomont on October 02, 2012, 12:11:06 AM
i grow both.
i grow rustican tobacco.the strongest you can smoke.even pickin it will give a buz.i worm my dog and cats with cigs.it works great for heart lung and intestinal worms.
me and my wife smoke seven cartons of cigs a month.
we also smoke two ounces of weed bud and leaf each week.i built the most reliable bong around.i also invented one of the most reliable pipe screens there is.
45 and still can climb towers and bang my wife.im the healthiest guy in my neighborhood ,most of the kids are lazy and fat.

Would love to try both Your products.  [smile]

Quote from: robomont on October 02, 2012, 12:11:06 AM
i grow rustican tobacco.the strongest you can smoke.even pickin it will give a buz.i worm my dog and cats with cigs.it works great for heart lung and intestinal worms.

Yes, it said it works well as a worming agent; also as an insecticide.  One thing nicotine is apparently very good for, is killing things. ;)

Quotewe also smoke two ounces of weed bud and leaf each week.i built the most reliable bong around.i also invented one of the most reliable pipe screens there is.

I smoked marijuana in Nimbin, around three times a week.  I also enjoy weed here if I can get it.  Weed for me is fine.  It doesn't cause me to bring up mucus, or wake up in the middle of the night with paranoia and the shakes.  Cigarettes did that. ;)

The mix I smoked in Nimbin was with mugwort and mullein, ideally.  Mugwort had an extra high, but didn't seem to hurt me at all, otherwise.  Mullein is also an expectorant; I'd smoke that to make sure I didn't get blocked up, and to bring up anything I did need to, although generally with weed I didn't cough up grey slime and mucus like I did with tobacco.

Quote45 and still can climb towers and bang my wife.im the healthiest guy in my neighborhood ,most of the kids are lazy and fat.

I hope sex isn't considered unusual at 45.  If it is, then given how long I've been celibate already, there is potentially going to be a problem. ;)

Quote from: Amaterasu on October 02, 2012, 12:23:04 AM
Really, just because something has a toxicity level is no reason to deem it useless, should be outlawed, etc...

I don't think it should be outlawed.  I'm not an advocate of criminalisation for really anything.  I'm just saying I don't like it much myself. ;)

i didnt know mullien was smokable.i got twenty plants of it eight foot tall.i let it flower for the bees.i just let it grow wild in my garden .

Quote from: petrus4 on October 02, 2012, 12:30:18 AM
I don't think it should be outlawed.  I'm not an advocate of criminalisation for really anything.  I'm just saying I don't like it much myself. ;)

Sounded a bit more vehement...  [smile]  Not a problem if You don't want to use it.

 :o

LMFAO


They say people believe what they want to.  Well this thread proves it. ::)

Quote from: robomont on October 02, 2012, 12:50:07 AM
i didnt know mullien was smokable.i got twenty plants of it eight foot tall.i let it flower for the bees.i just let it grow wild in my garden .

It had only a positive effect on me, so I assume it is.  It is sold as a smoke in Nimbin.  That is how I got some.  It is a good expectorant.  They claim it can even strengthen the lungs, but being smoke, I do not know how that could be so.  Maybe as a tea.

The Genotoxicity of Mainstream and Sidestream Marijuana and Tobacco Smoke Condensates.

QuoteAbstract

While the prevalence of tobacco use has decreased in Canada over the past decade, that of marijuana use has increased, particularly among youth. However, the risks of adverse health effects from marijuana smoke exposure, specifically as compared to tobacco, are currently not well understood. The objectives of this study were to evaluate the relative ability of matched marijuana and tobacco condensates to induce (geno)toxic responses in three in vitro test systems. This study provides comparative data for matched sidestream and mainstream condensates, as well as condensates prepared under both a standard and an extreme smoking regime designed to mimic marijuana smoking habits. The results indicate that tobacco and marijuana smoke differ substantially in terms of their cytotoxicity, Salmonella mutagenicity, and ability to induce chromosomal damage (i.e., micronucleus formation). Specifically, the marijuana condensates were all found to be more cytotoxic and more mutagenic in the presence of S9 than the matched tobacco condensates. In contrast, the tobacco condensates appeared to induce cytogenetic damage in a concentration-dependent manner, whereas the matched marijuana condensates did not. In addition, when corrected for total particulate matter yield, little difference was observed in the mutagenic activity of samples smoked under the extreme vs the standard regime for both tobacco and marijuana condensates.

Rebecca M Maertens, Paul A White, William Rickert, Genevieve Levasseur, George R Douglas, Pascale V Bellier, James P McNamee, Vidya Thuppal, Mike Walker, Suzanne Desjardins. The genotoxicity of mainstream and sidestream marijuana and tobacco smoke condensates. Chemical research in toxicology. 2009 Aug;22(8): 1406-14  (http://www.nextbio.com/b/search/article.nb?id=19947653)

Oh yes, hydrogen peroxide is a main cause of cancer from many types of smoke, including tobacco.

And yet studies of long time, heavy smokers of cannabis show no deviation from Those who smoke nothing.  Hmmmm.

Quote from: Amaterasu on October 02, 2012, 06:17:40 PM
And yet studies of long time, heavy smokers of cannabis show no deviation from Those who smoke nothing.  Hmmmm.

I will leave this discussion to you "experts".  Amy, sorry but I think you are in denial about tobacco and cannabis.

And I am not one of the people who think they should be criminalised.

Any I suspect Your studies are not realistic...  Agree to disagree.  [smile]

Quote from: Amaterasu on October 02, 2012, 06:47:47 PM
Agree to disagree.  [smile]

I think we can both live with that. ;)

I thought Pot was already decriminalsed... seems to be no shortage of it when I go searching odd gardening methods which spit me out on Pot growing forums LOL :D

Those folke are hardcore in growing methods to say the least LOL

Cannabis can be very healing, however, not so much in the psychoactive state. Juicing raw cannabis has produced amazing results for some; the healing power is in the CBD's, not the heat-converted THC11. Lower heat conversions are healthier on the lungs such as vaporizers, even safer, ingestion. I've grown a powerful, F1 strain in hydro which was a mix of Indica and Sativa that was very close to the original strains of Thai. I stopped growing because it was too nerve wracking knowing it could land me in jail. Besides, I really didn't like getting high anymore, and, having ADD & Severe PTSD, the high complicated these issues. Texas is far behind Oregon which allows a card holder to grow plants and posses up to 24 ounces. Truthfully, most of the card holders just want to get high, they don't truly need it for medicinal purposes; but hey, that's okay, it's their life! I know the newer strains are far more powerful than that of the 70's. For some it's too powerful, especially bad for people with ADD or those who already have memory problems. The more powerful strains can be good or bad for those with PTSD, it affects everyone differently.
Now this is probably the best use for leaf:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARiotXCL10w

The point is cannabis can heal, here is another story that needs to be told, Run from the Cure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om4eQqRRf4Q

Here's a summary of the laws here in the States:
http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000881 (http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000881)

Great post, Primus..been pot free for nearly a year now..feeling better every day.

Smoking anything inflames the inner parts of the esophagus, lungs and sinus, so it definitely is a battle between how much benefit is exhibited against how much damage is being done,

I liken it to running a car on Nitrous to win the race, but needing serious valve and tappet repair the week after.

I also found that as I got older, it gave me a paranoid feeling certainly due to the illegality of it, so I dont really miss it at all.

I am all for legalization, however, and if it were legal, I might even grow a bit for occasional usage..who knows...but never until then. Its not worth it when there are so many ways to heal the body through diet and excercise...however minimal.

Nowadays I eat my greens!LOL!

Cheers!

Most plants can be toxic and healing depending on how they are used.  That is different to admitting they can heal but denying their harmful effects, of course.

Quote from: Primus58 on October 02, 2012, 07:08:03 PM
Cannabis can be very healing, however, not so much in the psychoactive state.  Truthfully, most of the card holders just want to get high, they don't truly need it for medicinal purposes;

You are aware that "just wanting to get high" is treating stress, right?

Quote from: Littleenki on October 02, 2012, 07:18:29 PM
Its not worth it when there are so many ways to heal the body through diet and excercise...however minimal.

Nowadays I eat my greens!LOL!

Cheers!

Sadly, eating greens does nothing to alleviate chronic pain.  SWIM uses it when She can get it for just that purpose.  She is in low-level pain 24/7.  And cannabis does WONDERS to ease that.  ONLY thing that is natural (or unnatural, for that matter) that does - and no negative side effects!

Quote from: Amaterasu on October 02, 2012, 07:42:28 PM
You are aware that "just wanting to get high" is treating stress, right?

Yep, thats true..self medicating!
LOL!
:) :) :) :)

Quote from: Littleenki on October 02, 2012, 08:03:03 PM
Yep, thats true..self medicating!
LOL!
:) :) :) :)

Self or otherwise, the motive to "get high" is most often a desire to alleviate stress.  For some, like SWIM, it's pain relief.

Quote from: Amaterasu on October 02, 2012, 08:06:24 PM
Self or otherwise, the motive to "get high" is most often a desire to alleviate stress.  For some, like SWIM, it's pain.

Ive heard that alot..for me it always made me feel pain more..especially cramps from Chi Gong and yoga!

Everyones different though..too bad it isnt available where you are like Cali!

:(
Cheers!

Quote from: Littleenki on October 02, 2012, 08:08:43 PM
Ive heard that alot..for me it always made me feel pain more..especially cramps from Chi Gong and yoga!

Everyones different though..too bad it isnt available where you are like Cali!

:(
Cheers!

Agreed.  On all counts.

Quote from: Amaterasu on October 02, 2012, 07:42:28 PM
You are aware that "just wanting to get high" is treating stress, right?

Well, technically, it's the act of getting high that treats stress; the 'want' can cause more stress, especially if the herb isn't available! ;)

For some it causes more stress. But it can also be argued that the want or need to get high is another way of sweeping a larger issue under the carpet, where the 'high' is temporary, delaying treatment of a root cause. I would submit acupuncture as far more effective than pot, especially for pain. For those with cancer, pot is very effective, especially those who've decided to poison themselves with chemo. Again, for some, pot enhances the pain. I think pot is very harmful for younger people whose brains aren't fully developed, not so much chemically as psychologically; for many it drains them of motivation and ambition, and money. Pretty soon, any challenge is met with escaping instead of facing it and growing. Unfortunately this is fact for many pot smokers. I know through experience... LOL!

Marijuana is so POTENT now a days.
I remember back in the Olden Days marijuana was not all that 'strong'.

Unless you got your hands on some Thai-Stick or some REAL Columbian/Jamaican/Panama-Red, etc...


"Those were the days my friend that we thought would never end...."  8)


Now a days it is that Hydroponic Marijuana that kicks yer buttocks.


It is not my thing anymore.  My only vice in any regard now is simply Marlboro Mediums.
An occasional Crown Royal on the rocks on those days my arthritis is really flaring up.


'Meet the Pain' is how it was describe to me.
Especially for things like Pain Medication.  Oxycontin, Vicodin, etc...
People can freak out about those medications and not really know anything about them.
If you live in Chronic Pain then taking medications like Oxy or Vicodin ONLY help you 'Feel Normal'.
Or at least closer to that.  NOTHING kills all of the pain.


People that are having Chemo-therapy feel better smoking or ingesting Marijuana because it will settle their stomachs.


I have no problem with decriminalizing Marijuana at all.
Especially since our government seems to support and/or subsidize the Poppy Manufacture in Afghanistan. 
Read the book: 'Confessions of an Economic Hitman' by John Perkins to learn about how our government 'Runs Drugs' into this country.
It is an interesting read....
IF they really wanted to stem the tide on drugs then they could have decades ago...

Quote from: Dood on October 02, 2012, 10:13:29 PM
IF they really wanted to stem the tide on drugs then they could have decades ago...

Then the CIA would need to get it's funding from us taxpayers instead :P

Quote from: Primus58 on October 02, 2012, 09:07:43 PM
Well, technically, it's the act of getting high that treats stress; the 'want' can cause more stress, especially if the herb isn't available! ;)

I disagree, overall.  SWIM suggests that it is not much stress at all.  From SWIM's experience.  Unlike things like cocaine, heroin and the like, it's more a wistful missing, but not a focus all the time.

QuoteFor some it causes more stress.

Oh, I'm sure there is some percentage - much like some People are allergic to aspirin.

QuoteBut it can also be argued that the want or need to get high is another way of sweeping a larger issue under the carpet, where the 'high' is temporary, delaying treatment of a root cause.

And it can be argued that a "treatment of a root cause" usually is through meds which addict, or destroy the liver, or the kidneys, or cause death...  Most often it has to do with seeing the crazy world and being disempowered.  Better to use a natural drug with no negative side effects that has caused zero deaths...ever.

QuoteI would submit acupuncture as far more effective than pot, especially for pain.

For inflammatory issues, which recur, cannabis is far more cost effective - and sometimes One receives it free...  SWIM can't afford regular visits to an acupuncturist.

QuoteFor those with cancer, pot is very effective, especially those who've decided to poison themselves with chemo.

True.

QuoteAgain, for some, pot enhances the pain.

Again, some are allergic to aspirin.

QuoteI think pot is very harmful for younger people whose brains aren't fully developed, not so much chemically as psychologically; for many it drains them of motivation and ambition, and money.

For Me, the jury is still out on this.  I have met a number of adolescents who used and were highly creative (no pun), eager to create, and diligent.  Not sure why You threw money in that list...  It goes without saying One usually has to buy it.

QuotePretty soon, any challenge is met with escaping instead of facing it and growing.

SWIM and a number of People I know discovered solution while medicated.  Not "escaping."  More looking at the universe from a different perspective.  Even Carl Sagan stated that His most creative work was done under the influence of cannabis.

QuoteUnfortunately this is fact for many pot smokers. I know through experience... LOL!

And from MY experience, it may be true of some - but not really a much greater percentage than of non-users.  Surely no reason to keep it from the populace of this planet.  Or even much worry about it. 

Quote from: Dood on October 02, 2012, 10:13:29 PM
Marijuana is so POTENT now a days.

That's why SWIM uses less of it now.

Quote from: Amaterasu on October 03, 2012, 01:17:30 AM
I disagree, overall.  SWIM suggests that it is not much stress at all.  From SWIM's experience.  Unlike things like cocaine, heroin and the like, it's more a wistful missing, but not a focus all the time.

First off, I don't know who SWIM is, but it doesn't sound they're very honest or in the know. Your original statement was that just WANTING pot would relieve stress, so yes, technically you were wrong! How can a desire cure stress?

Oh, I'm sure there is some percentage - much like some People are allergic to aspirin.

Wrong, I'm not talking allergic reaction; many people have adverse effects from pot, including paranoia, depression, and anxiety, this is more true for the stronger varieties. I'm talking about the psychoactive influence, not an allergic response.

And it can be argued that a "treatment of a root cause" usually is through meds which addict, or destroy the liver, or the kidneys, or cause death...  Most often it has to do with seeing the crazy world and being disempowered.  Better to use a natural drug with no negative side effects that has caused zero deaths...ever.

Here, you totally miss my point! I'm not talking about medication, I am talking about facing issues head on with counseling and therapy. I apologize, I wasn't clear on that! I was not talking about medicine. Trust me, I know how well pot covers things over, and how many kids and adults have wasted years using it!

For inflammatory issues, which recur, cannabis is far more cost effective - and sometimes One receives it free...  SWIM can't afford regular visits to an acupuncturist.

Who the hell is SWIM? I disagree, I found more relief through 5 Element Acupuncture, and, it's way more affordable than high grade pot, especially when you consider the legal risks (which is stupid)! Of course, if you know the right person it could be free. Never heard of it help inflammation, never did for me, but I take your word that it does for some. After crashing a Honda 750 at 80mph in the mountains, I know about chronic pain; pot NEVER helped!


Again, some are allergic to aspirin.

No, that is a specious argument. I know of many people who hyper-focus because of pot, and it makes the pain worse, again, the aspirin analogy is way out of context; I was not talking about allergies, but, some people are allergic to pot, the red eyes speak wonders!

For Me, the jury is still out on this.  I have met a number of adolescents who used and were highly creative (no pun), eager to create, and diligent.  Not sure why You threw money in that list...  It goes without saying One usually has to buy it.

It sounds to me you're not being honest about the adverse effects of pot. Great, so we have many creative high school dropouts! It's also true, that while many are creative on pot, there are many young kids who dropped out of school because they decided to party, and usually got into heavier drugs. An adult mind is more capable of making wise decisions and using in moderation. The money I mention because most kids aren't using their own money, and for a kid who should be learning in school, spending money on pot is bad. I think the case could be made pot impairs one's ability to learn, and for young brains not fully developed, it's an unrealistic treatment for those that are healthy.

SWIM and a number of People I know discovered solution while medicated.  Not "escaping."  More looking at the universe from a different perspective.  Even Carl Sagan stated that His most creative work was done under the influence of cannabis.

SWIM again, what the hell? Look, I know what you're saying, but the creativity aspect is merely a side effect of a fun high which MOST use as an escape, not as medicine. I'd be curious to know what solutions they discovered... LOL, how to make brownies with marshmallow topping. Give me a break, I know the life of stoners, I was one... so much wasted time.. man oh man! But I admit, some of my best music, art, and writing came from high-times. Incidentally, most of the astronomers we knew thought Sagan was a hack. I am referring to Cal Tech, Mt. Wilson & Palomar Observatories of which my dad was Assistant Director. Alan Sandage used to come over for dinner, too bad I was a young kid and couldn't appreciate who he was.

And from MY experience, it may be true of some - but not really a much greater percentage than of non-users.  Surely no reason to keep it from the populace of this planet.  Or even much worry about it.

Nowhere did I suggest keeping it from the populace (as though anyone could... LOL), I am for legalization! I am AGAINST people buying drugs, especially illegal drugs. One reason I grew was the ethic; I did not want any of my money to be used as blood money; whenever someone purchases drugs that come across our borders, they are supporting murder; and this is another good reason to legalize!

I use it on a daily basis to self-medicate my ADHD.

Let's just say I perform better in life and at work then when I go without for months or years.

Much like having a beer or cocktail when you get home from work,in very small quantities,much like everything else, moderation,does wonders.

Quote from: kdog on October 03, 2012, 02:54:45 AM
I use it on a daily basis to self-medicate my ADHD.

Let's just say I perform better in life and at work then when I go without for months or years.

Much like having a beer or cocktail when you get home from work,in very small quantities,much like everything else, moderation,does wonders.

Funny, my experience is it makes ADD (not HD), far worse. LOL, I'm all ready to start a task, then I get sidetracked, and again, and again until it wears off! ;D

Yes, many people cope with life better using artificial means to escape reality. For me, moderation was elusive... 1 beer always turned into 15. The stash I grew was directly from a biologist who grew a Cannabis Cup winner, an F1 of Northern Lights and Cali Orange, that sweet oily reef. True healing from weed comes from using it raw! Psychological healing can be very spiritual, on the other hand, pot can also inhibit and interfere with metaphysical practices. one thing for sure, I never liked to be stoned in public, no way! I was one of those who were very self-conscious on weed, and it was due to psychological issues from PTSD.

True strength is going without ANY crutch like alcohol or pot! It's then a person has to face the issues that make them drink.

Quote from: Primus58 on October 03, 2012, 02:50:39 AM

QuoteI disagree, overall.  SWIM suggests that it is not much stress at all.  From SWIM's experience.  Unlike things like cocaine, heroin and the like, it's more a wistful missing, but not a focus all the time.

First off, I don't know who SWIM is, but it doesn't sound they're very honest or in the know. Your original statement was that just WANTING pot would relieve stress, so yes, technically you were wrong! How can a desire cure stress?

SWIM is an acronym for SomeOne Who Isn't Me.  [nudge, nudge, wink, wink]  I think I can speak to SWIM's honesty and in-the-knowedness.  And You misread My intent there just a bit, didn't You?

Quote

QuoteOh, I'm sure there is some percentage - much like some People are allergic to aspirin.

Wrong, I'm not talking allergic reaction; many people have adverse effects from pot, including paranoia, depression, and anxiety, this is more true for the stronger varieties. I'm talking about the psychoactive influence, not an allergic response.

I'm not speaking of an allergic response either.  I'm comparing percentages.  And virtually all paranoia and anxiety is caused by the illegality, NOT the drug itself.  And, in fact, by far the largest percentage of People with depression and who use cannabis, TREAT depression effectively.

Quote

QuoteAnd it can be argued that a "treatment of a root cause" usually is through meds which addict, or destroy the liver, or the kidneys, or cause death...  Most often it has to do with seeing the crazy world and being disempowered.  Better to use a natural drug with no negative side effects that has caused zero deaths...ever.

Here, you totally miss my point! I'm not talking about medication, I am talking about facing issues head on with counseling and therapy. I apologize, I wasn't clear on that! I was not talking about medicine. Trust me, I know how well pot covers things over, and how many kids and adults have wasted years using it!

Well, I'm here to tell You that spending a stressful day and coming home to a bowl is NOT going to be solved by " facing issues head on with counseling and therapy."  The treatment of cannabis is just fine.  And by percentages, that is how most People use it who are treating stress.  Like some do with martinis.  (Or would You say THOSE People need to " fac[e] issues head on with counseling and therapy?"

Quote

QuoteFor inflammatory issues, which recur, cannabis is far more cost effective - and sometimes One receives it free...  SWIM can't afford regular visits to an acupuncturist.

Who the hell is SWIM? I disagree, I found more relief through 5 Element Acupuncture, and, it's way more affordable than high grade pot, especially when you consider the legal risks (which is stupid)! Of course, if you know the right person it could be free. Never heard of it help inflammation, never did for me, but I take your word that it does for some. After crashing a Honda 750 at 80mph in the mountains, I know about chronic pain; pot NEVER helped!

See above on SWIM.  I never said it helped inflammation.  I said it helped THE PAIN.  And SWIM has a rheumatological condition, and cannabis helps TREMENDOUSLY.  Just because You did not find relief does NOT follow that no One else does.  Again, some People gain relief from aspirin; Others are allergic.  It is numbers.  Far more People DO find pain relief than don't.

Quote

QuoteAgain, some are allergic to aspirin.

No, that is a specious argument. I know of many people who hyper-focus because of pot, and it makes the pain worse, again, the aspirin analogy is way out of context; I was not talking about allergies, but, some people are allergic to pot, the red eyes speak wonders!

Its to express that We are all different.  Because You can find People for which it is not true does NOT follow that it's not true for everyOne.  In fact, by all the tests, literature, testimonies, studies, and so on, those People You are describing are in a very small minority.

Quote

QuoteFor Me, the jury is still out on this.  I have met a number of adolescents who used and were highly creative (no pun), eager to create, and diligent.  Not sure why You threw money in that list...  It goes without saying One usually has to buy it.

It sounds to me you're not being honest about the adverse effects of pot. Great, so we have many creative high school dropouts! It's also true, that while many are creative on pot, there are many young kids who dropped out of school because they decided to party, and usually got into heavier drugs. An adult mind is more capable of making wise decisions and using in moderation. The money I mention because most kids aren't using their own money, and for a kid who should be learning in school, spending money on pot is bad. I think the case could be made pot impairs one's ability to learn, and for young brains not fully developed, it's an unrealistic treatment for those that are healthy.

It sounds to Me like You may be believing propaganda...  And where did I say "dropouts?"  These are kids who are in school and getting reasonable to excellent grades.  And yes, some kids drop out.  Some are not successful.  Some choose alcohol.  Some choose other things.  That does NOT follow that all kids are like that.  Numbers, again.

The kids *I* have met worked at McSatan and Buger Thing and Jamba Juice and had Their own money.  And actually, there is no non-government/corporate sponsored studies showing it impares One's ability to learn.

Quote

QuoteSWIM and a number of People I know discovered solution while medicated.  Not "escaping."  More looking at the universe from a different perspective.  Even Carl Sagan stated that His most creative work was done under the influence of cannabis.

SWIM again, what the hell? Look, I know what you're saying, but the creativity aspect is merely a side effect of a fun high which MOST use as an escape, not as medicine.

What is this "escape?"  SWIM has not escaped.  SWIM has found that it relaxes SWIM enough to deal with issues.  AND SWIM DOES use it as medicine.

QuoteI'd be curious to know what solutions they discovered...

Quote

SWIM found ways to deal with financial issues...

QuoteLOL, how to make brownies with marshmallow topping. Give me a break, I know the life of stoners, I was one... so much wasted time.. man oh man!

So sorry to hear.  SWIM too knows the lives of MANY who use cannabis.  Only two sound like You.

QuoteBut I admit, some of my best music, art, and writing came from high-times.

Was that time wasted, then?

QuoteIncidentally, most of the astronomers we knew thought Sagan was a hack. I am referring to Cal Tech, Mt. Wilson & Palomar Observatories of which my dad was Assistant Director. Alan Sandage used to come over for dinner, too bad I was a young kid and couldn't appreciate who he was.

Well, Cornell surely did not hold those views of Him.  Who knows what political machinations were afoot, eh?  People tend to speak poorly of Those who may be a threat to Them or Their pet theory.  Can hardly pin the use of cannabis as the reason for these People's views...

Quote

QuoteAnd from MY experience, it may be true of some - but not really a much greater percentage than of non-users.  Surely no reason to keep it from the populace of this planet.  Or even much worry about it.

Nowhere did I suggest keeping it from the populace (as though anyone could... LOL), I am for legalization!

Cool!

QuoteI am AGAINST people buying drugs, especially illegal drugs. One reason I grew was the ethic; I did not want any of my money to be used as blood money; whenever someone purchases drugs that come across our borders, they are supporting murder; and this is another good reason to legalize!

Only because it's ILLEGAL.  I will not support an UNETHICAL "law."  Especially where MY happiness and comfort are at odds with it.  And a large percentage of cannabis is grown right here by that nice old farmer down the road...it turns out.

Quote from: Primus58 on October 03, 2012, 03:09:34 AM
Funny, my experience is it makes ADD (not HD), far worse. LOL, I'm all ready to start a task, then I get sidetracked, and again, and again until it wears off! ;D

Yes, many people cope with life better using artificial means to escape reality. For me, moderation was elusive... 1 beer always turned into 15. The stash I grew was directly from a biologist who grew a Cannabis Cup winner, an F1 of Northern Lights and Cali Orange, that sweet oily reef. True healing from weed comes from using it raw! Psychological healing can be very spiritual, on the other hand, pot can also inhibit and interfere with metaphysical practices. one thing for sure, I never liked to be stoned in public, no way! I was one of those who were very self-conscious on weed, and it was due to psychological issues from PTSD.

[sigh]  MANY People with ADD find it helps.  That You did not does not make it so for everyOne.  In fact, treating BOTH ADD and ADHD are on the list of things research has shown it will treat in MOST (not ALL).

Quote from: Amaterasu on October 03, 2012, 03:45:25 AM
[sigh]  MANY People with ADD find it helps.  That You did not does not make it so for everyOne.  In fact, treating BOTH ADD and ADHD are on the list of things research has shown it will treat in MOST (not ALL).

Show me the stats on that! Experts on ADD have noted a serious problem with ADD and pot, non-government studies add! For most it's true. But, and here it's my turn to sigh, I never said it doesn't help others! you are putting words in my mouth!

I am not anti-pot. But you have to be honest about some of the detrimental effects of pot. It does cause damage and ruin lives. The help it serves is only a temporary psychological crutch. The true benefit comes from raw cannabis, and I mean healing cancer and other maladies.

Quote from: Amaterasu on October 02, 2012, 06:47:47 PM
Any I suspect Your studies are not realistic...  Agree to disagree.  [smile]

Amy, I think it's important to understand that in this particular case, scientific studies are sadly not going to be much use to us, either way.  The reason why, is because people grossly overestimate scientific objectivity.  Experiments themselves can be completely impartial, yes; but unfortunately said experiments are conducted by human beings, who are not.

So you could have the DEA sponsoring one study or set of studies, the findings of which will simply serve to confirm their bias; that marijuana is bad/toxic etc.  Then you might have another study, which either claims to be neutral/independent, or which is funded by someone who is sympathetic towards marijuana, which will find that it is beneficial.

Compounding this problem, is what I've read about the more recent findings in quantum physics; which suggest that the outcome of an experiment may, in real terms, genuinely be affected by the observer and their expectations.  So I suspect this can happen, even where full impartiality is present, and no corruption as such is meant.

Quote from: Primus58 on October 03, 2012, 03:09:34 AM

Yes, many people cope with life better using artificial means to escape reality. For me, moderation was elusive...

For me, smoking marijuana is like eating food.  If I haven't had any for a while, I will have a hunger for it, but then after I've had some, (usually a very small amount; I'm a cheap shout) I feel satisfied and simply do not want any more.  I do not smoke it as a means of escape.  Coca cola is my real crutch/vice substance; it is the one thing that I am truly, uncontrollably physically addicted to.

This is why I'm probably not the best advocate for weed, truth be told; because even when there is lots of it around me, I simply do not want to smoke it all the time.  In Nimbin in the end, I was smoking two joints per session, with three sessions per week.  Yes I enjoy it, but I also enjoy cookie dough ice cream.  I don't smoke weed all the time, however, for roughly the same reason why I don't constantly eat cookie dough ice cream.  It would just make me sick.

Quote from: Amaterasu on October 03, 2012, 03:41:42 AM
And You misread My intent there just a bit, didn't You?

Perhaps, I read the sentence and took it literally since there was no allusion to an alternative intent!


Well, I'm here to tell You that spending a stressful day and coming home to a bowl is NOT going to be solved by " facing issues head on with counseling and therapy."  The treatment of cannabis is just fine.  And by percentages, that is how most People use it who are treating stress.  Like some do with martinis.  (Or would You say THOSE People need to " fac[e] issues head on with counseling and therapy?"

Bad sentence, therapy won't solve coming home to a bowl. Why so defensive? Yes, drinking everyday can be a problem, not for everyone. Counseling is wonderful for working out problems, too many people are afraid to reach out for help due to a caveman stigma..  so they escape into wonderland with drugs and alcohol... which tears apart many families, and kills thousands on the highways.

See above on SWIM.  I never said it helped inflammation.  I said it helped THE PAIN.  And SWIM has a rheumatological condition, and cannabis helps TREMENDOUSLY.  Just because You did not find relief does NOT follow that no One else does.  Again, some People gain relief from aspirin; Others are allergic.  It is numbers.  Far more People DO find pain relief than don't.

Okay, I get you on this, misunderstood before. Once again, I never stated my experience speaks for all!

No, that is a specious argument. I know of many people who hyper-focus because of pot, and it makes the pain worse, again, the aspirin analogy is way out of context; I was not talking about allergies, but, some people are allergic to pot, the red eyes speak wonders!

Its to express that We are all different.  Because You can find People for which it is not true does NOT follow that it's not true for everyOne.  In fact, by all the tests, literature, testimonies, studies, and so on, those People You are describing are in a very small minority.

Wow, I take it you had a bowl before this thread... LOL! ONCE AGAIN, I NEVER STATED IT WAS TRUE FOR EVERYONE... please read more carefully! I call B.S. on this, you show me the literature, tests and studies! I can show you non-government studies that show adverse effects of pot, and in different books about ADD. Look, I said it once I am for pot, but your recalcitrant attitude betrays a mantra put out by pot heads sans TRUE EVIDENCE! Show me your numbers, then, if you are right, I will humbly concede!

It sounds to Me like You may be believing propaganda...  And where did I say "dropouts?"  These are kids who are in school and getting reasonable to excellent grades.  And yes, some kids drop out.  Some are not successful.  Some choose alcohol.  Some choose other things.  That does NOT follow that all kids are like that.  Numbers, again.

No, far from it! I am speaking from experience and from extensive study. I used the term dropouts as it is true many dropouts do so because of drug problems.

What is this "escape?"  SWIM has not escaped.  SWIM has found that it relaxes SWIM enough to deal with issues.  AND SWIM DOES use it as medicine.

What is this escape?... LOL, SWIMMA PLEASE!

So sorry to hear.  SWIM too knows the lives of MANY who use cannabis.  Only two sound like You.

So you only know three people... LOL.. sounds to me like you're disingenuous.

Was that time wasted, then?

No, and did I say that everyone who smokes pot is wasting time? No I didn't!

Only because it's ILLEGAL.  I will not support an UNETHICAL "law."  Especially where MY happiness and comfort are at odds with it.  And a large percentage of cannabis is grown right here by that nice old farmer down the road...it turns out.

What's truly sad is the Federal government overstepping the State's rights and propositions that were voted in; and yes, the fact that it's illegal, and, that people are in jail or prison for a simple herb is ludicrous.

Finally, this quote of yours is just flat out ignorant:
And virtually all paranoia and anxiety is caused by the illegality, NOT the drug itself.  And, in fact, by far the largest percentage of People with depression and who use cannabis, TREAT depression effectively.

This is absolute bullcrap! Pot for many enhances paranoia, not because of the laws, rather because of a chemical interference in the brain! For MANY people, pot intensifies depression! This is not my opinion, this is fact! It is clear you are not well read on this; or if you are, it is you reading the propaganda from one side!

Quote from: Amaterasu on October 03, 2012, 03:41:42 AM
I'm not speaking of an allergic response either.  I'm comparing percentages.  And virtually all paranoia and anxiety is caused by the illegality, NOT the drug itself.  And, in fact, by far the largest percentage of People with depression and who use cannabis, TREAT depression effectively.

OK; this requires some clarification.  What I am about to tell you, Amy, comes from first hand, direct experience; not anything I've read etc.

Marijuana at sufficient dosages, and of sufficient quality, can act as a psychedelic.  It is not as strong, but it can behave similarly to mushrooms or acid; I've had all three.  The thing to understand about psychedelics is, that first and foremost, they are amplifiers.

If I'm happy or in a positive mood when I start smoking, weed is going to increase that.  If I'm angry, then while it might take the edge off my actual aggression, it's probably still going to leave me feeling paranoid, twitchy, and maybe even a little fearful. 

This, more than anything else, is the single main reason why the one cardinal rule of LSD use, is that you must never, ever, ever, EVER be afraid of the drug.  Fear, in and of itself, is the most dangerous thing you can experience while on psychedelics; because they will all amplify that fear, and acid can do so to such an extent, where it is extremely easy to experience a psychotic break.

Quote from: petrus4 on October 03, 2012, 05:16:56 AM
OK; this requires some clarification.  What I am about to tell you, Amy, comes from first hand, direct experience; not anything I've read etc.

Marijuana at sufficient dosages, and of sufficient quality, can act as a psychedelic.  It is not as strong, but it can behave similarly to mushrooms or acid; I've had all three.  The thing to understand about psychedelics is, that first and foremost, they are amplifiers.

If I'm happy or in a positive mood when I start smoking, weed is going to increase that.  If I'm angry, then while it might take the edge off my actual aggression, it's probably still going to leave me feeling paranoid, twitchy, and maybe even a little fearful. 

This, more than anything else, is the single main reason why the one cardinal rule of LSD use, is that you must never, ever, ever, EVER be afraid of the drug.  Fear, in and of itself, is the most dangerous thing you can experience while on psychedelics; because they will all amplify that fear, and acid can do so to such an extent, where it is extremely easy to experience a psychotic break.

Thank you Petrus4, now this response was far more intelligent, and way less abrasive than mine. Amy, I apologize for any hostility... for some reason I took this personal... LOL, maybe I need a bowl!

A whole other topic is the work of Alexander Shulgin, especially his latest 2ci... I had some friends that went to Canada to get it. It was a clear liquid. They mixed it with Vodka. It was supposed to be the cleanest, most cerebral hallucinogen by far... with absolute dimensional properties. I stayed away from it, because I know myself, if I went on a downward mood swing, look out, I would have to go hide... LOL! What Petrus says is absolutely on the mark.

Again, sorry Amy for being contentious.

Woody

Quote from: Primus58 on October 03, 2012, 03:59:49 AM
Show me the stats on that! Experts on ADD have noted a serious problem with ADD and pot, non-government studies add! For most it's true. But, and here it's my turn to sigh, I never said it doesn't help others! you are putting words in my mouth!

I am not anti-pot. But you have to be honest about some of the detrimental effects of pot. It does cause damage and ruin lives. The help it serves is only a temporary psychological crutch. The true benefit comes from raw cannabis, and I mean healing cancer and other maladies.

http://www.kortexplores.com/node/133
http://davidbearmanmd.com/docs/ADHD1.pdf (Discusses ADD too)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj72e5q61Fs
http://www.medicalmarijuanastrains.com/tag/good-for-add/ (Just for the lovely pic - but it's listed in "Good Strain For:")
http://www.onlinepot.org/medical/add&mmj.htm (Note references at end)

Personally, I am not going to try and insist that anyone have a positive attitude towards marijuana.  If you do not like it, do not smoke it.  It's fairly simple.  I pride myself on being probably the only individual I know of who is sympathetic towards marijuana, who does not try and enforce their own preference for the drug, with most of the people around me.  Stoners are generally single-mindedly evangelical in my experience, and I consider that an equal and opposite form of tyranny, to those who insist on criminalisation.

The only thing that I would request, is for those who are unsympathetic towards marijuana as a substance, to at least consider whether criminalisation itself, has a net positive or negative result for society as a whole; and also, to possibly ask themselves whether or not they truly believe that the law, in contemporary terms, really exists primarily for their genuine benefit.

Don't smoke it if you don't want to; but please, let those of us who do want to, do so in peace.

Quote from: Primus58 on October 03, 2012, 04:54:22 AM

(Tags were such that it all was quoted and I don't have the energy to copy, paste and fix)

Why "defensive..."  Because You said that treating stress just means One need to face up to things and get treatment.  I'm not defensive, per se.  I'm more WTF.

A martini after work is not a big health issue.  Three or four, yeah.

I know 50ish People who use; two of which are lazy bums.  Please don't tell Me how many I know.  It's rude.

Treating stress is merely a matter of relaxing One.

And hey, if You want to believe the paranoia is "chemical" induced, fine by Me.  SWIM was paranoid the first couple of times - because it was illegal.  Many Other users I have talked to said the same thing.  [shrug] The paranoia went away.

Quote from: Amaterasu on October 03, 2012, 06:14:25 AM

http://www.medicalmarijuanastrains.com/tag/good-for-add/ (Just for the lovely pic - but it's listed in "Good Strain For:")

Ok, you blew me out of the water with this, I humbly eat they words... LOL! The ADD books I was referring to were written in the 90's. Indeed those are nice pictures... and some of those names are funny! A dear friend of mine, the Late Rasta Jeff, made a ginger bread cake with way too much of this special strain (Northern LightsxTNT), and we were on a canoe trip going down the Guadalupe. Well, it was so strong, everyone stopped talking, and one person had to get out and walk on the river bank, LOL, I think they started crying. It was too radical, it was extremely intense. unfortunately, Rasta Jeff cut his dredlocks off and joined a cult called Heaven's Gate; we tried to talk him out of it. Nope, he gave away everything and left. Then one day my ex-wife saw him on TV and heard about the suicides.. man, sad, and very stupid! One time, the Reggae band One Destiny was playing at the Sunken gardens theater, Rasta Jeff gave them some Gingerbread cake before they played... oh my! That was interesting.

Quote from: petrus4 on October 03, 2012, 05:16:56 AM
OK; this requires some clarification.  What I am about to tell you, Amy, comes from first hand, direct experience; not anything I've read etc.

Marijuana at sufficient dosages, and of sufficient quality, can act as a psychedelic.  It is not as strong, but it can behave similarly to mushrooms or acid; I've had all three.  The thing to understand about psychedelics is, that first and foremost, they are amplifiers.

Wow.  SWIM has had a LOT of STRONG stuff and WISHES it had had that effect.  Different effects for different People, I suppose.

QuoteIf I'm happy or in a positive mood when I start smoking, weed is going to increase that.  If I'm angry, then while it might take the edge off my actual aggression, it's probably still going to leave me feeling paranoid, twitchy, and maybe even a little fearful. 

Glad SWIM does not have those issues.  It ALWAYS makes SWIM feel better - but then it's easy to feel better when the pain stops.

QuoteThis, more than anything else, is the single main reason why the one cardinal rule of LSD use, is that you must never, ever, ever, EVER be afraid of the drug.  Fear, in and of itself, is the most dangerous thing you can experience while on psychedelics; because they will all amplify that fear, and acid can do so to such an extent, where it is extremely easy to experience a psychotic break.

SWIM has had experience with LSD and shrooms...  I know this is true of LSD, for sure.  Never had a situation when SWIM didn't do much better, no matter the initial state of mind, with cannabis.  (Except the first couple of times when SWIM was paranoid...)

Quote from: Amaterasu on October 03, 2012, 06:28:43 AM
Why "defensive..."  Because You said that treating stress just means One need to face up to things and get treatment.  I'm not defensive, per se.  I'm more WTF.

For some... not everyone. Do you deny that some people cover problems with drug use! operative word, some!

A martini after work is not a big health issue.  Three or four, yeah.

I agree.

Please don't tell Me how many I know.  It's rude.

Now it's my turn for WTF??? I was kidding, lighten up!

Treating stress is merely a matter of relaxing One.

'Sometimes' stress is a result of underlying issues, where relaxing through drug use only treats the symptom, not the root cause, like an event that manifests PTSD or other trauma. In that case it is far better to seek professional help than to smoke it away! There is, even in this modern time, a stigma relating to mental health work, counseling and psychiatry. If more people were honest with themselves and had courage, they could treat the core of their problems; combine that with love, adn it will far surpass drug use... but, I know how nice couple of tokes can be, like today when playing disc golf. I very rarely smoke.

And hey, if You want to believe the paranoia is "chemical" induced, fine by Me.  SWIM was paranoid the first couple of times - because it was illegal.  Many Other users I have talked to said the same thing.  [shrug] The paranoia went away.

It's science, not my opinion.

Quote from: petrus4 on October 03, 2012, 06:28:06 AM
Don't smoke it if you don't want to; but please, let those of us who do want to, do so in peace.

Are you talking to me?

I hope not, I am pro-marijuana, yet, also truthful about the harm it can cause! It has hurt many families, and this is what Amy fails to acknowledge.

I don't care what other people do, not my business... as long as they don't interfere with my rights!

Quote from: Amaterasu on October 03, 2012, 06:34:39 AM
Wow.  SWIM has had a LOT of STRONG stuff and WISHES it had had that effect.  Different effects for different People, I suppose.

Who's SWIM?  Also, come to Nimbin, Amy, and you'll get semi-psychedelic weed.  A heavily Indica based strain will do it.  To quote the somewhat Jamaican modelled Trolls from World of Warcraft, "dey got de good stuff, mon."

Nimbin has one particular local strain called Mullumbimby Madness.  A pipe and going to level (in Silva Mind Control terms) once had me talking with master Raphael, although only in passing, admittedly.  Up there I was staying in a caravan, where the bed was less than three feet from the chair; and after smoking two thirds of a pipe of that stuff, if you'd asked me how I'd got from the chair to the bed, I wouldn't have been able to tell you under torture.  Complete amnesia. ;)

Quote from: petrus4 on October 03, 2012, 07:05:38 AM
Who's SWIM?  Also, come to Nimbin, Amy, and you'll get semi-psychedelic weed.  A heavily Indica based strain will do it.  To quote the somewhat Jamaican modelled Trolls from World of Warcraft, "dey got de good stuff, mon."

Nimbin has one particular local strain called Mullumbimby Madness.  A pipe and going to level (in Silva Mind Control terms) once had me talking with master Raphael, although only in passing, admittedly.  Up there I was staying in a caravan, where the bed was less than three feet from the chair; and after smoking two thirds of a pipe of that stuff, if you'd asked me how I'd got from the chair to the bed, I wouldn't have been able to tell you under torture.  Complete amnesia. ;)

I have had stuff that sounds similar.  [smile]  But never an hallucination.  Nimbin...is in Australia, n'est pas?  A wee bit further than I can manage at the mo'.  But if the book sells well....  [grin]

Quote from: Primus58 on October 03, 2012, 06:43:59 AM
It's science, not my opinion.

I'm afraid this does not work, Primus.  Scientists are as subject to bias and other manipulation as anyone else.  The only experiments I believe in the validity of without question, are those which I myself am able to observe.

Quote from: petrus4 on October 03, 2012, 07:22:26 AM
I'm afraid this does not work, Primus.  Scientists are as subject to bias and other manipulation as anyone else.  The only experiments I believe in the validity of without question, are those which I myself am able to observe.

That's okay... there are very good scientist that would disagree, and it's not some stupid conspiracy.

Nimbin Hemp Embassy... LOL, got to love it:
http://goo.gl/maps/Xo2Ow (http://goo.gl/maps/Xo2Ow)

Quote from: petrus4 on October 03, 2012, 07:22:26 AM
I'm afraid this does not work, Primus.  Scientists are as subject to bias and other manipulation as anyone else.  The only experiments I believe in the validity of without question, are those which I myself am able to observe.

That is obvious and why we repeat each others work to verify (or reject).

When we start a new project, we actually repeat any work we are following up (our own or another groups) before we start the main project.  Why?  Because it ensures we don't waste the money on following a false trail.

To most scientists (possible exception being people working for big corporations), money for research is so precious.  I know this better that most after having to take time out from research due to a lack of funds during the recession.  Thankfully I'm back now. :)

If you worked in science you would see that most results are pretty much valid.  If they weren't, even the techniques we used wouldn't actually work.  For example, I have used molecular genetics to study proteins.  I would not even be able to do so if the results of the people studying molecular genetics had not been valid.  Also it would not have worked if the results of the people studying similar proteins in the past had been fudged as my experiments would have failed (I'll spare you the technical details).

By all means be suspicious of individual studies.  But to suggest that the whole idea that tobacco/cannabis is harmful is a grand conspiracy by scientists, especially when you consider that corporate pressure was actually to DENY THAT TOBACCO HARMS, is frankly ludicrous.  It simply shows an ignorance of science in the real world.

Quote from: Pimander on October 03, 2012, 11:42:45 AM
But to suggest that the whole idea that tobacco/cannabis is harmful is a grand conspiracy by scientists, especially when you consider that corporate pressure was actually to DENY THAT TOBACCO HARMS, is frankly ludicrous.

I personally do not assert this in generalised terms.  I consider the physiological effects of marijuana to be variable, dependent on the individual.  As for tobacco, you may note that I myself referred to it as a poison, earlier in this thread.

QuoteIt simply shows an ignorance of science in the real world.

I am not going to respond to this, on the grounds that I have grown to respect you as an individual.

Quote from: petrus4 on October 03, 2012, 12:44:25 PM
I am not going to respond to this, on the grounds that I have grown to respect you as an individual.

Sorry mate, I wasn't really referring to your point of view.  I was making an observation about the idea that scientists have conspired or been manipulated into using false data regarding cannabis and tobacco.

In actual fact, cannabis being banned was connected with Dupont and industrial espionage I believe and most of the data about it being harmful appeared after it was banned.  There has been huge pressure from the tobacco lobby to push scientists towards tobacco being less harmful which is most likely the source of the data Amy refers to.  I'm not sure how clear I am being.

What data is likely influenced by corporate sponsors?  I say the data suggesting tobacco is not harmful or is beneficial is due to the tobacco industries efforts. ;)

pot has never been as halucinogenic as shrooms or acid for me.
the guys i work with are fulltime potheads.we are high and sometimes stoned on the radio towers.
only the straights ever get hurt.
counseling is stupid.
ive gotten better counseling from inmates at the county lockup.
withdrawals from pot is where the suicide comes in.you have to recognise the dayafter or never have a dayafter.
always stay high and functionality is fine.

its the up and down that will make a person loopy.
i know people who live to be a hundred who smoke tobacco.
i prefer to live my life in peace rather than in stress.
after a couple js i can think through my problems.
way cheaper than a counselor.

its called,get over it.
as for the tower industry.fu.
i practically own the tower industry.i have more family and friends in the industry than anybody.i can bankrupt any tower company in the industry if i wanted to.
second,i dont pee for anybody!
if your gonna make the threat ,back it up.

i built the biggest,baddest tower in the industry.
i am the one that brought rappelling into the industry on a fulltime basis.
and if your certified to climb,the picture on your card is a tower i built !
so stick it where the sun dont shine !
if this post offends zorgon,i apologize.